Yes the long amount of time that Ennis seems to date Cassie (and the long duration of Jack's relationship with Randall) makes the conversation between Ennis and Jack during the evening of their final camping trip particularly odd.
Ennis seems to be mentioning Cassie here almost for the first time (referring to her as the "waitress who wants to go to nursing school or something") and Jack's little fib about the ranch foreman's wife here also seems to be the first time that a veiled reference to Randall comes up in Jack's conversation.
Given that the Childress charity dance was in the late '70s and this camping trip happens in 1983... that's a long time for Jack and Randall to have been involved potentially. And, Ennis was already with Cassie by the time of that charity dance.
Wow! I'd never paid that much attention to that part of the timeline! That does make that conversation on their final camping trip very odd then. I guess given the condensed nature of the timeline in the film, it could have been that the charity dance was intended to be later, but if it was intended to be later, why didn't they just make it later? And the story isn't much help because the dance scene isn't in the story (just me thinking out loud here). Very strange indeed.
Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
Brokeplex, nevertheless, how long did she go out with Ennis?
Or saw him?
Any proof... like others think?
Hugs!
Merci et, wow brokeplex!!
Tu me donnes des surprises!!
Yes, what marvelous surprises you provide.
However, Ennis was indeed nice to Cassie, right? That should have given a clue to Cassie that he was gay or bi ??
Au revoir,
hugs!
May I not figure it that way.
Ennis was not the one who initiated the relationship.
Cassie did, right?
Au revoir,
hugs! So Cassie must have figured it out that Ennis was gay or bi, at least sub... way! ??
Merci brokeplex. Pray that I did not upset you with my joke!
Ennis had no choice but not communicate with Cassie anymore, right? CASSIE KEPT ON PRESSURING ENNIS... FOR YEARS... like 4, 5, 6 ??
That is one way! Not to reply.
Isn't that THE way how to do: when one follows you?
Au revoir,
hugs!
I don't see any reason for Cassie to figure out that Ennis is gay. Not because she is too dumb to figure it out. But, a man being gay just wasn't something that she would probably consider until the evidence was in front of her face. He wasn't seeing any other men except for Jack, and they had their fishing trips "cover story". The society at large assumes that men are straight until proven otherwise. Maybe thru the years, she thought about Ennis, and maybe she wondered later on after she married Carl. ???
I liked Cassie, just like I liked Alma, and I felt for her dissapointment in Ennis, just like I felt for Alma's broken heart. When I see that scene in the bus stop, I wanted Cassie to grab that plate of pie and rub it in Ennis's face, of course that is consistent with my feelings in the Thanksgiving kitchen scene, I wanted Alma to break that plate over Ennis's head. Those women were way too nice to Ennis. >:(
Do we know that Cassie has SEX with Ennis?? Any proof?
Au revoir,
hugs!
(one way or another... and yes, it's not all his fault of course)... it really makes me sad for him.
As far as I understand "the blocks" is a breeding term that applies to animals. I could be wrong but that's what I think he means in his comment to Jack. He's at least trying to demonstrate his sexual prowess to Jack here. They're both bragging to each other about sexual conquests with women (although it seems reasonably clear that in Jack's case the "ranch foreman's wife" was really a veiled reference to Randall... the ranch foreman himself).
you are giving Ennis more of break than I will. Ennis was responsible for his life, yes, he was in a difficult situation, but he was responsible for hurting Alma, Jack and Cassie.
perhaps at the end, the famous comment "Jack I swear" really meant, "I swear that I finally understand the tragedy that I have allowed to unfold in our lives."
I believe that is correct, I think that it has something to do with the blocked cages that breeding animals are placed in while encouraging their breeding. ???
In the yard were two "breeding blocks," where a female's head would be forced through a metal ring so that a "stud" could mount her.:(
You're right brokeplex. I am trying to give Ennis a bit of a break, even though he certainly contributes to a lot of heartache and pain for the people who love him. But, I also have a lot of sympathy for Ennis and the struggles we know he goes through.
All the characters are flawed one way or the other. And, Ennis most certainly is too. But, yes, I'm willing to cut him some slack on certain issues (even if some of the things he says and does make me angry or disappointed).
He wanted sex from Cassie,
Do we know if Ennis had sex with Cassie?
What proof?
Alma and Cassie wait way, way , way too long, too long to break realtionships?? That is NOT natural !! WE do NOT see that in our society!
It is likely obvious that Ennis does not go OFTEN with Cassie, maybe so?? But Cassie persists and persists... she is the one making contacts !!
Can we all note that Ennis is reasoning and also using more his emotions, and when he combines that, he is becoming more clear... but that takes much, much, much time than Jack, Alma, Cassie tried as times !! ?? Does that make sense Bliss and all of you too on Bettermost/and guests ?
I wondered why Cassie became a player here in the BM movie, and I thought that that was maybe because Eng and the ss writer(s) (and/or those connected doing this film) was maybe anti-gay by stressing this charactor: Cassie !!- That as so, because it deminishes Ennis as a good sport, as well as Jack too in some ways !! You understand?
Didn't Annie accentuate Ennis and Jack as good sports in her book ?? But he BM movie advances otherwise ??
Anyway, maybe by adding Cassie now in the BM movie, then we come to understand that Ennis (a gay or bi man of good charactor) is not the only one that needs helps to evolve but that straights (as in heterosexuals) too need help, yes as well to understand gay or bi life ?? Or is the BM movie only stressing being gay or bi is no good, and that the only importance is being straight or acting like that no matter of you are gay or bi ??
For now, the idea that comes to my mind before I forget it, is that Ennis had also TO THINK ABOUT protecting his OWN Life ? Plus that of OTHERS too ??
Such murders of gay men still happen in our societies, unfortunately, just because they are gay men !! The case of Sheppard is one !! And many murderers get away with it - (I know of one in my last city who never spent a day in jail since the jury believed him and felt sorry for the murderer... of all things !!), or a murderer just spends few hours in prisons! But the dead can not talk... and neither can his relatives nor loves nor others talk to him now !!
I fear nearly daily getting to be discovered as a gay man, and getting murdered because of that orientation !!
I have lost jobs, reputations, health, a house and property, because I am a gay man in our democratic societies !! And I fear the islamics and other such radicals coming into our lands, since many would be proud to murder a gay man !!
So Ennis fears and much more, since even for his life !!
For the original subject:
Was Cassie in the Brokeback Mountain movie homophobic?
We have no way to tell.
Good Grief, Not this crap again, say it isn't so....
Was Cassie bad for Ennis??
Even if we like Cassie in some or many ways, she is wrong maybe for Ennis ?
Would Cassie have been happy... if she would have lived with Ennis, even if he would have been in love with her ??
Even if Ennis could or would love her, he does not seem to be her type, since she likes to be agressive while he is quiet, she likes fun and dances, etc., being outgoing!! She would want to go out often while Ennis would prefer to stay at home resting after physical day long work !! ??
How long would Cassie and Ennis in such a marriage would last? Especially once she figured that her husband Ennis loved a man ??
Would Cassie like to live live in a ranch with Ennis who would have to do so ??
Cassie wants to be a nurse! So, she would want to live in cities?
But there in cities, Ennis would have no jobs likely, or be unhappy!! ??
Much can be said yet about Cassie if she knows about Ennis who loves a man (Jack)... and is she homophobic?
Au revoir,
hugs!
Thanks oilfieldtrash!
May I say to you and to all too:
No man can be that much of an island ?
At least Ennis did communicate; that is tried !!
He had fun with Jack, he had a family... kids, and even after Cassie's insistance, he stopped that !!!
Do we tend to forget that he has those major concerns, plus the ongoing fear that if found with another man, his life is in danger !! ??
Does Ennis change ?? Did Cassie help him or harmed him in some way(s) ??
Au revoir,
hugs!
Thanks oilfieldtrash!
Didn't Cassie try to change Ennis ?
Au revoir,
hugs!
Thanks oilfieldtrash!
Was it not Cassie that forced herself on Ennis and kept on that way?
Au revoir,
hugs!
Thanks oilfieldtrash!
May I disagree with you:
since I do see Cassie forcing Ennis' hand (that we see in more than one way in the movie),
plus Ennis says so to Jack!!
??
Au revoir,
hugs!
Thanks oilfrieldtrash!
Noted is that Cassie forced Ennis on to the floor.
He did not want to be with her!!
And Ennis did say to Jack that Cassie was forcing herself on to him!
Whysoserious, to that may I say that there is always to sides of a coin, right?
You and some others are taking the position or think that Cassie is not forcing herself on Ennis, right??
May I see the opposite light or view ??
Everyone sees that Cassie forces Ennis on to the floor; she pulls him !!
Is that not so?
And Ennis does not want to do so!!
Your interpretation of what Ennis says to Jack about Cassie, is not mine evidently!! You have a right to your own opinion, on that!
Cassie should have ended her make-believe affair right away after dancing with Ennis, but no she does not!!
If she abuses Ennis or not, that is another question??
It is NOT Ennis' fault that he is not in love with Cassie, right?
Ennis is a big boy. He had his reasons for going along with her. If he didn't want to, it's hard to imagine someone of Cassie's size and build "forcing" a man who spends his days wrangling animals to do anything.
Artiste, what Ennis says to Jack is, "(I've) been putting the blocks to a good-lookin' little gal over in Riverton." I don't know how you get "Cassie was forcing herself on to him" out of that. If anything, as we've already discussed on this thread, the phrase "putting the blocks to" implies aggression in the other direction.
If you've got some other line in mind, please quote it specifically. I've seen the movie 20 times and read the story about 10, and I can't think of any dialogue remotely like what you describe.
only 20 times for the film and only 10 times for the ss? when you get a chance, you have some catching up to do ! ;D
Around here, when you say you've seen the movie 20 times, people say, "What -- didn't you like it?"
:laugh:
We're still in in synch reagarding the number of our viewings of the movie (same is true for the SS).
Thanks oilfieldtrash!
Was it not Cassie that forced herself on Ennis and kept on that way?
Au revoir,
hugs!
I am flattered like Ennis that Cassie acts, but I would NOT have sex with her; therefore, I do not think that Ennis had sex with her neither?? Is that a possibility?
Around here, when you say you've seen the movie 20 times, people say, "What -- didn't you like it?"
:laugh:
I did date females/ladies!!
More on that later,if you like[/i]!!
3: Straight, gay or flexible? Recent research suggests women may be “intrinsically bisexual,” and the higher their libido, the more they desire both sexes. In another study, the female subjects—whether they considered themselves straight or gay—were physically aroused by erotic films of both men and women. In contrast, the straight men were excited just by women, and the gay men only by men.
Some other men known to me, many after being married to a female, and finding a male afterwards to have sex with, have no sexual desires to have sex with their wife or another female, and I note that many men are like this, and I think thatEnnis is one such case, person/b]!!
Ennis was married before and is now not anymore; so when Cassie comes around and forces herself to him, he does not want her, even if she is Marylin Monroe!! He does NOT want sex with Cassie!!
To me, there seems to be NO proof that Ennis had sex with Cassie !! Is there such a proof?
I can accept that maybe Ennis finds Cassie convenient, since she has a crush on him, but I find no proof that he had sex with her!!
I am flattered like Ennis that Cassie acts, but I would NOT have sex with her; therefore, I do not think that Ennis had sex with her neither?? Is that a possibility?
Talking about words:
what about the words murder and kill; kill is a ladies' word and murder is a gentleman's word ??
I have no proof that the sun exists, never having been there, and never having known anyone who's been there. I see it every day (British weather permitting), but just because I see it, does it make it real? I've seen photos of it, but photos can be faked, but that's not to say it doesn't exist. ;)
We have no direct evidence that Jack has a relationship with Randall, but that doesn't mean we don't believe they had a relationship. All we see is a conversation between the two of them on a bench outside the dance hall, Jack's statement to Ennis that he's having an affair with a rancher neighbour's wife, and OMT's mention of Jack going back to Lightning Flat with "some other fella". Not a lot to go on, but reading between the lines, and on the balance of probability, we assume they did have a relationship. Did they have sex? We've no proof of that either, but again on the balance of probability we guess yes, probably.
According to the timeline as close as we can guess, Ennis must have been dating Cassie for 4-5 years. As Seriouscrayons says, given a relationship that long, if they didn't have sex Cassie would be very suspicious (unless we assume she comes under that class of asexual people, but we have no proof of that either) and would surely wonder why. Ennis is a grown man; he's quite capable, if he wishes to, of ending the relationship (he doesn't have a problem with telling Jack "no" on a number of issues, so I can't see saying no to Cassie would be a problem to him), but he doesn't. Cassie isn't forcing him to have a relationship with her. Okay, so when he first meets her he's not too keen on dancing with her, but I know men (and women) who aren't keen on dancing! Maybe he's just had a long day and he just wants to sit down? It's clear from his dancing style that he's not used to dancing and is nervous - maybe he just doesn't want to make a fool of himself, but it's a large leap from Ennis not wanting to dance, to Cassie forcing him to have a relationship with her!
But you're not Ennis Artiste! Just because you wouldn't have sex with her doesn't mean Ennis wouldn't either.
Okay, looking at the evidence for Cassie and Ennis....
Cassie & Ennis - the evidence
- Does Ennis have sex with women, or at least a woman? Yes - he's married to Alma and we know they have sex, and they have two kids
- Cassie and Ennis dated for 4-5 years. Would it be natural to assume in a relationship of that length that the couple concerned would have sex? Yes.
- Given that, do we see any evidence of Cassie complaining that they don't have sex? (which it would be fair to assume she would if they didn't, unless she falls into the asexual category, which there's no evidence of). No.
- Do we have any evidence of Cassie being aggressive to Ennis and forcing him to have a relationship with her? No. Pulling him to the dance floor to dance when he wasn't keen is hardly crime of the century, and if I had to list everyone who'd ever made me get up and dance when I really didn't want to, we'd be here all night!
- Does Cassie view her relationship with Ennis as a "serious relationship"? Cassie asks Alma Jr about Ennis seeing fit to settle down - she clearly has thoughts of marriage, so it's fair to assume theirs is a serious relationship
- Does the notion of having a "serious relationship" with someone include having sex with them? Usually, yes.
- Ennis's words to Jack on their final camping trip: "Been putting the blocks to a good-lookin' little gal over in Riverton."
That's a fair bit of evidence there, including a direct quote to Jack.
Men kill, definitely, but by definition, a gentleman would not kill, or he would not be a gentleman. ;)
I don't know why I keep coming to this thread and feeling compelled to answer the same question over and over again.
that to me is a much more interesting question than whether or not, or how often Ennis and Cassie had "sex". ???
a corollary to that question is : why does Artiste seem to need to believe that Ennis did not have "sex" with Cassie? ???
It's because I'm doing my taxes and I come to BetterMost while I'm waiting for forms to print out and things like that, and when I click "show new replies to your posts" this thread keeps popping up, and it's one of the few that do, so while I'm here I pound out a post to pass the time and relieve the stress I'm feeling over the fact that I made a stupid error on my taxes and now have to file an amended return.
May I note:
I do not think that Ennis had continuous sex with Cassie. Maybe a bit, but I tend to even doubt that too !!
And one must ardently remember WHY did Ennis, after coming down with Jack, from the Brokeback Mountain, why he YELLED at Jack when Jack came back to see him in that shed !!
I should hope not! Five years of continuous sex and the poor boy would be worn out! :P
I don't know why I keep coming to this thread and feeling compelled to answer the same question over and over again.
I should hope not! Five years of continuous sex and the poor boy would be worn out! :P Might explain why he kept sending Jack away though - he was just plain exhausted! :laugh: (sorry, I've got my 'silly head' on)
Thanks atz!
You say:
This man with the black hat is a passerby, not Jack. Jack has already driven away.
.........
Really?
Your pulling my leg?
So, why do you think that I accentuate this with Cassie?
If Jack had come upon this scene of Ennis crying and getting sick... well, I think the story would have taken a much, much different turn. It's sort of interesting to imagine how things might have been different (it might be a good starting point for a fanfic story).
Artiste, you're a sweetie, but you really have got too much time on your hands and you're not working hard enough on your paintings if you've got time to be obssessing over Cassie. ;)
I don't think Cassie would know what that word meant ;D She is probably about my least favorite character in the movie. She also does not seem to be too bright ;)
I'm the opposite here... I think Cassie is a warm, fun person who doesn't understand the situation that she's gotten herself into with Ennis. But, I don't really see anything particularly negative in her character.
I think Ennis treated her terribly by essentially using her to bolster his public image and leading her on... and that wins her a lot of sympathy in my book.
agreed about the comment concerning Ennis using Cassie as a "beard", I also have similar feelings about Ennis's using Alma in a similar fashion, although one can give him some benefit of the doubt in 1963 at age 19 for being confused, by the time he met Cassie he was clearly trying to use her for cover.
Agreed.
I've noticed that many people tend not to like the characters who get romantically involved with Jack or Ennis -- Alma, Lureen, Cassie, Randall -- perhaps because they pose a threat to the relationship between Jack and Ennis. But none of them is deliberately trying to hurt anyone, or get hurt (with the semi-exception of Randall, I guess, since he's deliberately proposing that Jack cheat on his wife).
I'm sure that Ennis gave a lot of visual clues that gay men know as "gaydar" pings, Cassie just couldn't consciously compute that into meaningful knowledge.
Thanks for the your good karma wishes on my posting, I can't resist posting about the film and the ss, it is just too interesting.
And while I am back in town before I go out on the campaign again, I have all this time to sit at the computer, besides, today I am nursing a tiresome summer cold! go away summer cold! ;D
After five years of dating, she may even have picked up some clues that were more than visual! ;)
It's always nice to see your contributions to the discussions.
Hope you feel better soon! :)
After five years of dating, she may even have picked up some clues that were more than visual! ;)
K, are you implying something about the way Ennis may treat her in bed (along the lines of what happens with Alma)? Or, are there other clues that you're hinting at here?
I thought she was beyond pushy with Ennis. She would have run me off even I were straight.
I agree with brokeplex's take on the dynamic between Ennis and Cassie, and also Amanda's observation that she is a warm and appealing character. It is hard to overestimate the degree of desperation many young Wyoming women must have in finding a suitable mate in that sometimes desolate region. I don't doubt there are Cassies out there who would be fine with a gay husband as long as he was discreet and went through the motions of being hetero every once in a while. There are worse things in life than being married to a person who is oriented differently than you! There are lots of men prone to violence, drug or alcohol addiction, gambling, religious zealotry, laziness, sports addiction...the list can go on and on!!
I am of the opinion that a very attractive personable woman like Cassie could have had her pick of men, and wouldn't have had to settle for a closeted man. It seems to me that Cassie was deliberately picking Ennis for her personal reasons (of course love is always personal), in spite of his taciturn and somewhat boorish nature. This makes Cassie one of the most interesting characters to me. I want to know, why she picked Ennis and tried so hard to stick with him, as I feel she could have her pick of lots of other men, younger, handsomer, certainly more prosperous and more hetero!
But remember:
"Ennis said he'd been putting the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit, but it wasn't going anywhere and she had some problems he didn't want."
It seems Cassie had some issues. With small towns being what they are and nothing a secret for long, maybe Cassie had worked her way through the more eligible guys in town and Ennis was her last hope... well, until Carl appeared.
If Cassie ask Jr. (Ennis' daughter) if her father is the the settling down type ,
can be be thought too that she (Cassie) thinks already that Ennis is gay or bi ??