.... what I was saying is that based on what Mr. Twist chose to disclose to Ennis, I think Mr. Twist also knew Jack was queer, and Ennis was queer.
I think the Ang Lee was trying to show that the dad did know what was going on. He got on my nerves so bad, couldn't have been more rude. But I guess it's typical for back then when being gay wasn't exactly "looked upon." But the mom was so sweet I could just tell that even if she did know she would have accepted Jake anyways. I think Ennis might have known that they knew even though to me it didn't seem like he really expressed that in any way.
Sounds like a nice show you guys are puling off :laugh: I'll have to see it :D
Actually, it wasn't Ang Lee's idea but Proulx's. Ennis visit to Jack's parents is in the short story.
As for the original posting, I think Ennis didn't know Jack's parents knew about them. That was probably the least he expected to find or hear there. Ennis was surprised when Jack's dad tells he knew who he was.
Ennis went there to offer his condolences and to take Jack's ashes to Brokeback thinking maybe they didn't know where it was, since Lureen didn't. I personally think Ennis wanted to see something about Jack, as a personal tribute or something. I have the impression that he sort of felt the need to be close to Jack, to feel the love and the pain, and the only thing he could do about it was to visit his parents.
In my opinion, I think the need to fulfill Jack's last wish about his ashes, was so overwhelmingly important to Ennis, that he had to go see them.I agree. I think that Ennis realized he had denied Jack's dearest wish, over and over. Fullfilling this other, last wish of Jack's seemed to be the only thing that he could do for Jack, and his fears no longer mattered to Ennis. The worst had already happened.
Also at this point, the grief was so abundant, that this was the least of his problems.
I agree. I think that Ennis realized he had denied Jack's dearest wish, over and over. Fullfilling this other, last wish of Jack's seemed to be the only thing that he could do for Jack, and his fears no longer mattered to Ennis. The worst had already happened.
When he got to Lightning Flat, and had his interaction with the Mr. Twist, Ennis realized even more fully how he'd hurt Jack. When Ennis found the shirts (guided by Jack's mom), Ennis found something something else he could do for Jack, and for himself, more important than honoring Jack by seeing his ashes scattered where he wished. No matter where we stand on the question of Ennis' future, I think there's agreement that finding the shirts, and the evidence of Jack's love for him, led Ennis to act toward at least one other person out of knowing, finally, that love was what mattered the most.
Beautiful post fernly!! :) (why can't I write stuff like that!?! ???)
By the way, "ednbarby"...what a beautiful quote you have at the bottom of your post..I have read it over and over.
Yes, there was no hesitation in Ennis going to visit theTwists.....he was going to fulfil Jacks wish, to get the ashes and take them to Brokeback.
I am sure Mrs Twist knew about the boys, or at least felt that there was something special between them...Not sure if Old man Twist got the right picture, I think all he thought about in his selfish way, was the thought of two blokes coming up and fixing up his ranch.
Mrs Twist knew Ennis was not going to get the ashes, but she made sure Ennis was going to get the two shirts and was not going to leave empty handed...Maybe Jack had told her the origins of the shirts at some time, i believe he probably did.
By the way, "ednbarby"...what a beautiful quote you have at the bottom of your post..I have read it over and over.
This thread is dedicated to Katherine!
I've been noticing the quotation, too. You a Sting fan, Barb? :)
When Ennis goes to see the Twists, IMO, he's basically coming out to them. [snip]
But Mr. Twist immediately makes clear that he knows what's going on. "Tell you what, I know where Brokeback Mountain is," is his coded/symbolic way of saying he knows Jack was gay. If that's not clear enough, Mr. Twist makes it even more so when he talks about Jack wanting to ranch up with Ennis, and then this spring with another fella. Mr. Twist may be a jerk, but he's not an idiot. He gets it. And Ennis knows full well he gets it.
As does Mrs. Twist, which is again obvious to Ennis. Her sympathy, her gentle push toward the shirts, her nodding approval when he takes them -- he understands what she's saying, and indicates so by the way he responds to her in return: nods, a thank you, a lingering grateful look on the porch as he leaves.
So Ennis understands that the Twists "know." But at that point he doesn't care.
Why does Ennis, who is so paranoid of being found out, expose his and Jack’s relationship to Jack’s parents? By going to the Twist ranch Ennis should have realized that he was going to give the Twists something to think about, hell they might possibly even make the connection that Ennis was queer as was their son! Ennis must have wondered about whether Jack’s parents knew or did not know that their son was queer.
We already know that Jack was very private and did not spread personal information about the two of them, so presumably Ennis knew that Jack was discreet in that way. So instead of going to the Twists', why did he not write them a letter instead, or make his offer in a telephone call, about taking the ashes up to Brokeback, I mean.
This thread is dedicated to Katherine!
IMO, Ennis did not see himself as gay.
But I don't think Ennis had any thought of "coming out" to the Twists; - I very much doubt he even considered the risk of being "outed". (But even if he did, he wouldn't have let that stop him.) I don't think he would have expected the Twists to have heard about him except perhaps as some casual "hunting buddy", so their level of knowledge about him must have come as a surprise. I think he hoped they'd just see his offer as a bona fide condolence visit and offer of help, nothing more.
But once he's there, he realizes that they do know - and yet, the heavens don't come crashing down. As the quote above says, he doesn't care. He discovers that horrible as it is, he can actually stand this. In the behaviour of Mr. Twist he meets the contempt of the world that he's always expected to meet, if the truth became known. But he finds that is not as horrible as he's always feared it would be; - there are worse things. And he also unexpectedly meets an outstretched hand - acceptance, compassion, respect.
Ennis receives two posthumous and very precious gifts from Jack at Lightning Flat, that both go a long way towards putting Ennis's deepest fears to rest and giving him some measure of inner peace: The shirts, proving to Ennis that Jack loved him all along until his death, when Ennis feared he didn't. And the Twists's behaviour towards Ennis, prompted by the knowledge that Jack had deposited with his parents, proving to Ennis in practice that he is able to stand being known as a queer, that he may actually survive people *knowing* about him, that he may well meet understanding, not only disgust.
... often posters write that Ennis did not see himself as gay. Well I have just one question: Please to explain to me what he was talking about when he was warshing the dishes in the river, and he asked Jack "Do you ever get the feeling that people know?"
In my efforts to understand this beautiful tragical love story I have tried make sense of all the pieces of the puzzle, and I have found one way of putting the pieces together so that they all fit together, with just this one curious piece that don't quite fit right: "....get the feeling that people know? ....and then you go outside, and ever' one is lookin' at you like they all know too?" It sounds to me like Ennis "knows" something about himself, that something being that Ennis knows he is gay. That is how I interpret Ennis' words here. How do you?
Jane
IMO, he is talking about his relationship specifically with Jack. When he and Alma have the confrontation in the kitchen, Ennis assumes Alma deduced he was having an affair with Jack (in another thread, I believe it was Mikaela who pointed this out as a way to "get back" at Ennis ... i.e. make him paranoid that others could figure it out, too). Ennis' paranoia does increase. He is trying to figure out how Alma would have known the nature of his and Jack's relationship (of course being oblivious to the fact that she actually saw them together). Ennis asks Jack, "is everthing normal between you and Lureen?" (not sure if I quoted that exactly ... I don't have the book in front of me, but you can get the gest of their conversation). Ennis figures that if Alma could figure it out, so could others.
"....get the feeling that people know? ....and then you go outside, and ever' one is lookin' at you like they all know too?"
It is hard to say if Ennis sees himself as "gay" up until that point. Maybe he thought he was bisexual at least? As long as he could keep Jack his secret.
That is why the lake scene fight is so important. Ennis at first is mad at Jack for not being faithful. Then after Jack blasts him for not being there enough for him and the threat of quitting him, that breaks the Dam holding back Ennis's true feelings.
Ennis is suddenly realizes that he can hardly stand it without Jack too.
.... a 30-something relatively sane rational man asks his buddy, who BTW he is never ever seen together with, anywhere, except maybe at a gas station on the way to the mountains, asks him "do you ever get the feeling people know?" He was not speaking of his acquaintances, co-ranch hands, children, etc. He was speaking of strangers on the streets of town. Why would Ennis be thinking of finishing that sentence with "people know ..... that you Jack, and me, we do it?" Where would that be coming from?
Whatever Oscam's Razer is, I heard about it here at BetterMost, I never looked it up yet, but isn't it something like the most logical explanation is the most likely? I think Oscam's Razer fits here. I think lots of closeted queer men often wonder if strangers can tell that they're queer just by looking at them. That is not a far-fetched assumption.
I think this statement tells us that Ennis is aware that he cannot handle living two lives like Jack does. He is trying to act "Straight" in society and yet is in love with Jack, a man.
Asking if "things are alright, normal like with Lureen?" he is asking Jack if he is still able to be with his wife as a regular married man. Something Ennis failed at with Alma.
His continued paranoia over people finding out remains, but towards the end of the movie and the lake scene, he finally dumps Cassie because he wants Jack to be his one and only lover.
It is hard to say if Ennis sees himself as "gay" up until that point. Maybe he thought he was bisexual at least? As long as he could keep Jack his secret.
That is why the lake scene fight is so important. Ennis at first is mad at Jack for not being faithful. Then after Jack blasts him for not being there enough for him and the threat of quitting him, that breaks the Dam holding back Ennis's true feelings.
Ennis is suddenly realizes that he can hardly stand it without Jack too. That last line he says is great: "Jack I can't stand it no more". Stand it meaning : loving eachother without being able to be around eachother.
I see where you are coming from, but I don't buy it. Here is the difference (it sounds like I am splitting hairs, but I am not) .... it is one thing to be paranoid that strangers think a person is gay and a completely different issue to admit to being gay. Ennis is having an affair with a man. Ennis doesn't understand why .... he describes it as "this thing." The whole relationship is an anomoly. Ennis asks Jack if everything is normal between him and Lureen because if Alma could figure it out, it must have been something he did. Also note the scene when Jack approaches the clown in the bar .... at that moment in his life, he doesn't see himself as gay ... yet he is sure those guys are talking about him. When a person has a secret life, it is common to think others know ... that somehow your reality is seeping out. It is the fear of being "found out". It doesn't mean, "OMG! I'm gay and everyone knows it".
Let me clairfy ... I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying. The issue regarding Lureen and Jack being "normal" ... does Lureen suspect he is having an affair? Is his sex life normal with Lureen? If that is what you are saying, I agree. It is not that she might suspect Jack is having an affair with a man, but that she might suspect he is having an affair, period.
The lake scene, IMO, is when Ennis realizes he loves Jack. That does not mean, however, that he admits he is gay or bisexual. He loves Jack ... he's never loved another man. He's never had sex with another man. He has never wanted to be with another man. IMO, he blames Jack for his feelings. If it wouldn't be for Jack, he would be "blissfully" living a "normal" life.
On your last point ... the whole "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" ... I have posted this before, but will reiterate it briefly here. I see the whole "I can't stand it" as a bookends to their relationship from the time of their reunion until the lake scene. When they are on the mountains and Ennis is talking about seeing each other once in awhile. Ennis later says to Jack, "If you can't fix it, Jack, you gotta stand it." Jack asks "how long?" and Ennis says, "As long as we can ride it. Their ain't no reins on this one." Then, at the lake, Jack says to Ennis, "Tell you what ... the truth is ... sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it." (In one of the most poignant and painful lines in the whole film, IMO.) Lastly, Ennis breaks down into Jack's arms and says , "I can't stand this anymore Jack." (BTW - Ennis collapses post mountain when he sees Jack leave. He then collapses again, this time in Jack's arms. Again, I find this to be bookends in their relationship.)
The "I can't stand it" is on both of their parts. They both can hardly handle living a lie, having a secret and being away from each other. Despite this, Ennis' homophobia would prevent him from living an open life with Jack. However, he has gotten to the point where he understands that the love of his life is Jack. Ultimately, it is too late. He loses Jack anyway.
it is one thing to be paranoid that strangers think a person is gay and a completely different issue to admit to being gay
I think this statement tells us that Ennis is aware that he cannot handle living two lives like Jack does. He is trying to act "Straight" in society and yet is in love with Jack, a man.
Asking if "things are alright, normal like with Lureen?" he is asking Jack if he is still able to be with his wife as a regular married man. Something Ennis failed at with Alma.
His continued paranoia over people finding out remains, but towards the end of the movie and the lake scene, he finally dumps Cassie because he wants Jack to be his one and only lover.
It is hard to say if Ennis sees himself as "gay" up until that point. Maybe he thought he was bisexual at least? As long as he could keep Jack his secret.
That is why the lake scene fight is so important. Ennis at first is mad at Jack for not being faithful. Then after Jack blasts him for not being there enough for him and the threat of quitting him, that breaks the Dam holding back Ennis's true feelings.
Ennis is suddenly realizes that he can hardly stand it without Jack too. That last line he says is great: "Jack I can't stand it no more". Stand it meaning : loving each other without being able to be around each other.
I realize my arguments are very shall we say amateur, but I am being very direct here, not layering them in a lot of deep analysis, (which I can see coming at me, and I am not as good at expressing as some of the deep thinkers here on this thread), but nevertheless, I am taking Ennis' statements and actions, and Jack's statements and actions at face value and trying to reconcile them, or fit them all together into a puzzle that works.
Ah Diane, I think I am going round and round the mulberry bush with this movie, I used to think I would be able to understand and explain the movie, both the characters, all the ambiguities, to wrap it all up in a nice little package to myself, "there! this is what this means, this is what the movie is all about...." Ironically I was asking this identical question 2.5 months ago on IMDb when I first saw the movie. I guess I haven't come much further than that.
Here is the crack up .... before I started posting on IMDb and then on BetterMost, I was 100% convinced that my point of view was the correct one. Then I starting reading the boards. YIKES! I think I changed my opinion 100 times or more. I just get a high from discussing this film. It's too much fun to hear other's point of view ... ya know what I mean??? ;D
Thanks for the kind words Diane. I don't mean for you to think that I want to sway anyone, I am not interested in making people see it my way, I just want to understand it. I realize that this movie can mean different things to different people, but for me I just wanted to define it to myself, for myself. I am as puzzle solver, and I wanted to crack the puzzle.
Here is something from a couple of days ago that really highlights to me that astounding diversity of the human race, and I find it quite funny (wrong word). I was the lucky second poster to a thread started by Mel (nakymaton) which I appreciated as an excellent original idea for a new thread. Now here was an aspect of the film that I thought was pretty clearcut, straightforward, not so ambiguous. I never thought that there could multiple interpretations the single sentence "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe etc etc etc." Well!!! was I wrong! LOL
It was a pice of cake to whip off a quick response, this is a facet of this depthless story that I have no difficulty in defining to myself. I thought, now for sure people are going to write back "yeah I agree 100%, yeah that's what I think too, exactly what I was goin to write, etc etc." HAHAHAHA I never came up with any of the other interpretations that have been suggested, and I think that some of them are quite good, to the point now of asking myself, "well which one is it, is mine not the one? humhmmm..."
I haven't looked at the thread since this morning, but so far not one person has interpreted that line the way I have. That kills me! :laugh: :laugh:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2973.0;all (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2973.0;all)
So no, I am not trying to influence anybody's opinion, just to understand this masterpiece of a film.
Peace out.J