BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum

The World Beyond BetterMost => The Culture Tent => Topic started by: garycottle on March 07, 2008, 07:39:15 pm

Title: Stop the Hate
Post by: garycottle on March 07, 2008, 07:39:15 pm: (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8980/111stopthehate.png)
Title: Re: Into The Wild (Spoilers)
Post by: delalluvia on March 07, 2008, 09:24:57 pm: Excellent review Gary. yes, when I'd read the book, I also thought Chris was a bit left of center. Many people do like to escape civilization and go into the wild, live off the land, but it's very hard to do, and you don't do it unless you are very well versed in the skills you're going to need and are willing to take the risk that if something happens to you out there, you will not have the support system that society gives.

Heh, there is a reason humans banded together originally - we were pretty worthless on our own, easy prey for any predator that came along, unable to catch anything on our own without the use of technology - be it a snare, a trap or a fishing pole or a group
Title: Re: Into The Wild (Spoilers)
Post by: "Joseph Golden" on March 09, 2008, 01:22:10 pm: Garycottle, I read your "Review" of the film and find it Interesting - To say the less. But i don't agree with some of your opinions and you distorted the truth a little with some of your assumptions.

I'm am 19, so my opinion is prejudice by my age bracket. Call it immaturity or idealism. But what i'm about to put forth is something of vigour and adolescence. But I consider these important.

I loved this film, but I do believe that it went too far in romanticizing Chris.

A lot of people have said this but i disagree. With the material the movie had to work with, and the book in that matter, they could of really ostracized and exsaderated it to a extreme. But, they did'nt. They used accounts from really people he came across. These people gave the author and screenwriter direct dialogue to work with. Hence, that was incorporated into the film. So under the assumption of what could of been said and what was said his opinions and rantings weren't expressed. As one would assume they could have been.

His family (Real) were worried from the beginning that the book and film would be to romanticised. They wanted the story and the film to not only represent there son as how he was. But how dangerous it is living a life of tramping. They did this. Thorough out the movie he meets really friendly and docile people. But when his on the train they show a side to his life that is also apparent. The danger.....

Hollywood could have really got a hold of the film and really exsaderated It to realism, idealism and political-ism....

But, they did'nt. They said what was said. And nothing more. I feel so much more could have been said....

I came to the conclusion that Chris suffered from one of the schizoid mental disorders.

The meaning, Schizoid
■ adjective Psychiatry denoting a personality type characterized by emotional aloofness (Yes) and solitary habits (Yes). ▶informal resembling schizophrenia in having contradictory (No) elements; mad or crazy (Definitely Not).

Yes he was solitary and aloof, but he did enjoy human contact. Remember when he meet the hippies in Colorado river. He was happy to stay with them if only he could. He liked them. There dreaminess and foolishness....

Contradictory - In his college letters maybe, If he was than wouldn't he preach about being in the wild but then going off to live in a city. He wasn't this...

I think the psychology affect of finding out abut his fathers affair destroyed him. (I know compared to some child hood lives, this would be nothing), But in the perfect would that was fabricated around him. It was everything....
His family were so pertinacious on the outside. But when Chris realised the his whole life was the same. This took all the years he had away from him. Made it fake. SO he had to forge a new life....

Through college he grew more hostile toward them, but the final straw came when they offered to help pay for law school and announced that they planned to buy him a new car. The horrors!

This is a little fabricated. In the book, this wasn't even real. They suggested it. And he become annoyed. Actually the funny thing is. In the book he became really hostile when his mother suggested he was a homosexual. She did'nt even mean it that way. But that's the way he looked at it. I'm sad this facet of Chris's side wasn't portrayed in the film....

The movie, you missed the point a little. Being there with his family and talking about his good grades and stuff. He realised he was living the same life they did. A fabricated one. When his father said "Getting into Harvard is a big deal" Look at Chris's face. It isn't to him. He was in a way testing him. The car was only minor..... It was the way Chris and his family were pretending, and the life he could have lead that's important......

They just don’t like being around other people very much, and it seems to me that Chris simply had little use for social contact.

One has to ask himself, Why did he go back to Jan and Rainey? Remember he meant them in slab city......

He also walked away from his baby sister, too, and he had been very close to her while growing up.

Chris knew she would understand and she did! Also maybe he was afraid if he contacted her he would deluge back into the life he feared and did'nt exist..... To an extreme, Maybe he really had no family.... In his mind....
Not once in his Journal or goodbye note did he mention them....

At one point he befriended an old man, played very well by Hal Holbrook in the film, and when this lonely old guy offered to adopt Chris, Chris told him that people should be free, and not attached. And then Chris left him after suggesting that the old man rid himself of his worldly possessions and go live with a bunch of naked hippies in the desert.

It did'nt happen in that order and it should be noted that it did'nt..... His ramblings were earlier.... The offer for adoption was not in Chris's mind..... He wanted Alaska..... The wild...... The Freedom.....

Chris did not know how to cure and store meat, and since he was unable to successfully find game on a daily basis he slowly began to starve

False, He did know. Well under his assumptions he knew what he was doing. He just bite more than he could chew......
See thew size of that thing.... It just took him to long to cut and cure it. Hence why it got maggots....

But here again Chris’s lack of experience and knowledge came into play, and this time with tragic consequences

Wrong, It wasn't lack of knowledge and experience. He had the book. The thing was that. The plants flowers were edible, but the lethal veins which were also attracted to the same plant were not. Thus, he was under the assumption he could eat them..... But when he becomes sick, further knowledge reveals they are deadly....

Although you stated some good points. My view is different. But, we will never know. The book is based on a lot of assumptions, photos and hearsay! The realism of all this is ascertained. Chris was not very specific and his journals were insignificant. Things he said were also odd. At one point he said "I plan to live this life for a long time, the joy and simple beauty of it is to much to pass up"
One has to ask, Why did it take so long for him to come to this conclusion?

Chris became disenchanted form his animated life his family decided selfishly to make for him. For a while he live the conventional way of life and societies angst for materialism. There drive to have more, more, more.... More money, more knowledge, more love.....
But after a LONG time of doing this he realised as if he had a apthiny. That he was not going to live that way. "Career's are a twenty century invention" He forsaken all that was given to him. He gave all his money to charity. (Ironically, OXfam, a charity that prides itself in stopping starvation, But Chris himself eventually died of it)
Chris was a pilihlah of independence. He emancipated himself from everything that made him materialistic.

His search for a new life and new being within him was fruitless yet opulence. For him to gain this he had to abandon his family. He knew his sister would understand. His parents had to be transformed. Which they were during the film. His sister's angst went from admiration to despair.... Only cause of the realisation that maybe his new life was so good. She couldn't be apart of it. But she still knew it was necessary.....

His coming of all this knowledge is what he went there after. He realised that "Happiness is only real when shared" So he tried to leave... But became trapped. (More Irony) But was forced stay where his was..... Only than did he make the biggest most tragic mistake of his life.....

Chris departed civilisation and society as materialistic being and false.... He departed life disenthralment, Clear or all and reborn.... His was sad nor happy to leave this world in charismatic immoderation....... His moment of despair ruptured him. But he soon left free....... That is character....

His not a hero nor something aspired to become.... Nonetheless, his is envied by all that is true to themselves....

That is what i see Chris McCandless (Aka, Alexandra Supertramp) as.....
Title: Re: Into The Wild (Spoilers)
Post by: Shasta542 on March 09, 2008, 03:57:08 pm: Gary, thanks for the review of Into the Wild. I didn't know too much about it--just that Hal Holbrook got an Oscar nomination for his role in it.

I saw it on DVD today at the store. Thought about getting it, but it was full price. So I'll wait. I think it will depress me. But I want to see it.
Title: Re: Into The Wild (Spoilers)
Post by: "Joseph Golden" on March 10, 2008, 11:24:56 am: I loved the film, as I've stated. So I think perhaps you take my criticism a bit too strongly.

I'm sorry if i came off aggressive and to forward. But, I recently seen this film and have been memorised by it. Actually i'm deeply infacturated, impulsed and involved. I feel a close connect to the idealist feeling of getting away from society. All gay teens would have this feeling. The idea of abandoning this hate breed (At times) society and it's comfomities it enticing.

I know we have a bit of a age gap. But remember when you were nineteen. Imagine seeing a film like this back then. When all you want to do is escape. Find your own Brokeback and be happy! More importantly Safe!

And as I stated, I think Chris suffered from a much milder disorder.

Yes, i think he could have had a disorder. But a schizoid! No i don't think that was his problem. These people are emotionally detached from society (Chris was) and people. But he became very involved with with a couple. Profoundly moved Ron.....

I think the distraction, was from the idea and freedom of Alaska..... Thus making him headstrong and arrogant.

There is no evidence that Chris's parents abused him, physically (No), sexually(No), or emotionally(Heck Yes)

Carrin told us of many occasions when they were force into family meetings and asked to pick who they wanted to live with. Plus, being forced to watch them fight.
This is abuse......

but what he did to them was way over the top, and for me this is a huge red flag that something other than idealism on Chris's part and commitment to his own beliefs was at stake here.

I think we have to remember that he never planned on dying..... He went away on a trip that would eventually lead him to a fate non deceasing of a pure human being. He cut his ties from his family for two years. After that we dont know what he would have done. Maybe contact them, go back to them and forgive them. Maybe not.....
If we look at it from a point of view where his sister did'nt even worry he was gone. She cared.... But she knew it had to happen.....
I think we see the levity of his extremism is minimal, yet trivial..... Ask people who when was the last time they contacted there family. You'll be surprised. Two years. Extreme! But this guy i work with absolutely loves his parents. But he hasn't been in contact with them in over a year. Do they worry? Nope......

I stand behind my contention that Chris was not prepared to live off the land in Alaska

I'm glad, otherwise this conversation would be so boring! :)

And I think I have a very good argument to back up my claim. Chris died in Alaska

Under circumstances one would greatly find trivial and remote.....

He was unable to feed himself adequately, and this was not because it was impossible for him to do this.

You must remember he he survived nearly 100 days out there on his own. Someone with a lack of knowledge would not have been able to do this. Experience. He was under the assumption he had the experience. He got trapped in Mexico for a month of a bag of rice and a whole lot of sand. Thus he came to the conclusion he would have been able to survive adequacy on small rash ins. He did..... This about a hundred days.... That's three mouths..... That's a feat of it's own....

When he discovered that the stream he crossed going into the wilderness had become too high to cross he simply gave up and decided to wait it out.

Yes, but under the books assumption. It began to rain heavily for a week the night he tried to cross. So looking for a way over a raging river would have been dangerous. He went back because it was safe. He assumed "Hey, i been out here for 100 days" What's a few more? He knew he could survive.....

My opinion is he was very well equipped and managed quite well for a long time. It was the fact he misread the potato plant that killed him.

Chris was a stubborn, idealistic thoughtful boy. He went into the bush prepared and survived a great deal of time. It was a fault that could have been made by anyone (Even botanists). That in the end lead to his destruction.
He did need help and he might of had a mental disorder.... But schizoid! I dont see it....

Thanks....
Title: Re: Into The Wild (Spoilers)
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 17, 2008, 02:13:33 pm: This film is out on DVD this week and I'm looking forward to finally seeing it!

I was wondering what the parallels are to Grizzly Man, for anyone who's seen both?
Title: Re: Into The Wild (Spoilers)
Post by: delalluvia on March 18, 2008, 11:27:33 pm: Quote from: garycottle on March 10, 2008, 04:36:21 pm
Here's one of the guides used by doctors and psychologists in diagnosing someone with schizoid personality disorder:

According to the ICD-10, schizoid personality disorder is characterized by at least four of the following criteria:

1. Emotional coldness, detachment or reduced affection. (In my view Chris seemed to lack an ability to see how his actions would effect his parents and the old man who wanted to adopt him. It indicated to me a high level of detachment.)

2. Limited capacity to express either positive or negative emotions towards others.

3. Consistent preference for solitary activities. (This certainly describes Chris.)

4. Very few (if any) close friends or relationships, and a lack of desire for such. (This sounds a lot like Chris to me.)

5. Indifference to either praise or criticism.

6. Taking pleasure in few, if any, activities.

7. Indifference to social norms and conventions. (Chris was remarkably indifferent to social norms and conventions.)

8. Preoccupation with fantasy and introspection. (Chris was very introspective.)

9. Lack of desire for sexual experiences with another person. (Despite being a healthy young man, it seems Chris didn't work very hard to get laid.)

As I've already stated, my mother had paranoid schizophrenia, which is a more severe illness than what's described above. And my experience with that has given me an ability to pick up on certain symptoms in others pretty quickly. It's like gaydar. I once told my therpist that I felt like I could pick mentally ill people out of a crowd. I thought for sure that she'd tell me that I was full of beans, and that diagnosing someone with a mental illness takes special training and extensive testing and examination, etc. But she didn't. She told me that I probably did have this ability, and that I was probably quicker and more accurate than most clinicians with decades of experience.

When I read about Chris there were bells and whistles going off all over the place. But I don't mean to suggest that Chris was crazy, or that what he did and what he tried to do should be dismissed as the actions and aspirations of a madman. I take Chris seriously even if I do think he needed help.

Gah, Gary, I easily fit into 3 or more of those categories! :-\
Title: Re: Into The Wild (Spoilers)
Post by: Front-Ranger on May 01, 2008, 03:31:01 pm: Quote from: garycottle on March 17, 2008, 11:27:50 pm
Hi Lee. I've not seen Grizzly Man, but I looked it up at IMDb and it sounds like an interesting documentary. How'd you like it?

Hope you enjoy Into The Wild. I sure did.

I've now seen both films. They are both great and there are quite a few similarities. The biggest difference is that Grizzly Man is a documentary that was created out of the actual footage that the leading character shot and was found in his camp after his death. The film was made by Werner Herzog. I also really liked the soundtrack to Grizzly Man. Into the Wild was very good at incorporating Chris' before and after-wild lives.
Title: Re: Into The Wild (Spoilers)
Post by: mvansand76 on May 02, 2008, 09:09:02 am: I would love to see this this weekend! Will report back.... :D

David is in love with this movie....
Title: Re: Into The Wild (Spoilers)
Post by: BelAir on May 02, 2008, 10:52:37 pm: Quote from: Shasta542 on March 09, 2008, 03:57:08 pm
Gary, thanks for the review of Into the Wild. I didn't know too much about it--just that Hal Holbrook got an Oscar nomination for his role in it.

I saw it on DVD today at the store. Thought about getting it, but it was full price. So I'll wait. I think it will depress me. But I want to see it.

you know, when I saw it in the theater, I did not find it depressing at all.

quite uplifting in an odd way.

i'm not sure how i would feel watching it a second time through...

the movie didn't portray Chris as depressed (imo) so maybe that is why i didn't feel too sad watching it....

???