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Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: Penthesilea on March 10, 2008, 10:13:57 am

Title: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: Penthesilea on March 10, 2008, 10:13:57 am: Howdy BetterMost folks,

our resident Myprivatejack brought up an interesting thought a little while ago. Here's what she wrote:

„For Jack having this sweet life together would be a kind of liberation, sure. But for Ennis would be sooner or later to deepen in his fears and doubts, he would live in a constant negation of himself and their relationship, as ever. I don´t know if their living together would be so idyllic as Jack thought. But this is perhaps another thread...“ (12/20/07)

Thank you Myprivatejack for bringing up this question! :)

Sooo, let's push girls loved to pieces, smiling eight month olds and self-built loops aside for a moment and let's discuss What if...?

What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a sweet life?

Do you think once Ennis had taken the leap he would have managed to reign his fears? Or would the feeling of being looked at suspiciously, knowingly have driven him into paranoia? How much would it have stained their relationship?

(http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m47/Penthesilea06/TOTW/rodeo3.jpg)

(http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m47/Penthesilea06/TOTW/fea_10brokeback_02-10-2006_DQ6P7SA.jpg)
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: Katie77 on March 10, 2008, 11:53:17 am: No matter how they did it, or where they lived together, there was always going to be complications and I think Ennis would have felt "uncomfortable" each time a problem arose.

I am not sure what the legal status of homosexuals was in America in the sixties, but if it was illegal, then that in itself would have probably been the biggest hurdle.

Regardless of the legalities of it, they were probably unlikely to have been able to live together openly as partners, so they would have had to have concocted some sort of "fake" relationship to the community where they lived. Possibly saying they were brothers or cousins.

Of course once they started saying things that were not true, then more and more fabrications would continue, and that in itself would be an uncomfortable situation and more than likely they would be found out sooner or later. Extremely clever people find it hard to carry on living a lie, let alone two humble cowboys.

Then of course they have their children, who at some time or another would appear in their new life and they would probably be inquisitive themselves about the relationship, not to mention the curiosity of the community of who they belonged to, and where did they come from.

It is highly unlikely that their relationship would have been the "sweet life" that Jack had pictured. They could hide away from the outside world for a few weeks a year, like they did, but on a full time basis it would have been close to impossiible not to arouse some suspicion.

Sooner or later it would all take its toll on the relationship and the paranoia would eat away at Ennis and I would say, even Jack may develop similar uneasy feelings as well.
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: optom3 on March 10, 2008, 12:01:43 pm: My view on this changes daily.
On a good day it would have ben roses round the door and happy ever after,as society with passing years grew more accepting,so allaying Ennis fears.He would grow more confident wrapped in the security of Jack's love for him and his own.
On a bad day,Ennis would continue, with his fears being too deep rooted by now ,to ever leave him completely at ease.Jack would battle daily and eventually become worn down by the negativity and so find himself indulging in illicit affairs.
As a side note,an aquaintance and I were talking about BBM only last week.He is a gay man,wise in a way I can only dream of.Anyway he is late 60's and has been with his partner for 30 years now.So were together openly around the time of the mid 70"s.
They were in rural area of the States and he commented that he had more problems here in Florida than he ever had in rural states.He had been married before he came out and here is the interesting thing,he got custody of the kids!!!!! O.K hs wife was a drug addict,but even so,an openly gay man bringing up kids with his partner,back then.
His sympathy in the film lay with Alma,which I thought was also interesting.He argued that,he had decided he could not live a lie so left his wife,who already had drug problems by then and took his courage in both hands to live the life he wanted.
He openly says it has not been easy,and has had his own battles on route,including loosing a child to drugs and his own alcoholism(now dry for 15 years)The point I am making is that even back then,there were people who just took the plunge.
I take nothing away from the film which will always be my firm favorite,no other even comes close.It just seemed interesting in view of the topic.
This man had to deal with enormous prejudice which I cannot even conceive,imagine the parent teacher meetings!!! Yet he still persued his dream and is with his partner still.
So I guess I wish that Ennis had been possesed of that courage too.But then if he had I would probably not have been as affected by the film.Happy ever after, does not wring out the emotions in the same way.
Also would their love have survived permanance,or was the flame kept alive by the infrequency.Who knows,but it is certainly interesting to speculate.
On final note,if it had been happy ever after,would it have so radically affected so many peoples lives.It certainly made me face up to my demons,and confront some isues,and I know that has been the case for many here at Better Most.
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 10, 2008, 02:24:53 pm: Well, anyone who reads fanfic will know that this scenario is played out across dozens of different stories. In most cases after lots of angst, drama and complexities dealing with Ennis's fears, Jack's insecurities and issues with the community/family things work out through the strength of their love. So, at this stage it's sort of easy for me to imagine ways that it could work out. And, honestly, this is actually how I really imagine things might have worked out if Jack and Ennis had tried living together.

Actually, I think Ennis's fears would be less of a problem than the two of them adjusting to the realities of living together on a day to day basis. I could imagine that could be tricky for the two of them for a while. We know that they reached a point of "domestic" harmony living together on Brokeback. So, we know they're suited to making living arrangements together. Translating that to a house/ranch, etc. outside of the isolation of camping trips would take some work for the two of them, I think.

In terms of Ennis's fears... once he made the initial scary decision to go ahead an move in with Jack, I think he would be OK. Ennis is so stubborn that once he makes a decision and commits to it, he seems very determined to see that decision work out. I can imagine this attitude carrying over in a positive way to making a living situation with Jack work.

Their relationship would surely be complicated, be rocky and go through ups and downs... but I think that's the reality of all relaitionships.
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: myprivatejack on March 10, 2008, 03:26:41 pm: Above all,thanks to you Penthesilea¡ :) My opinion is the same than the ones who has written up to now; one thing is LOVING somebody and another,sometimes very and painfully different,is LIVING with him/her.In this sense,I think their love was forever,no matter even if they split,but their relationship would be harder to endure...Sometimes I've wondered if they maintained this Love's flame because they were apart,for these problems in sharing their life they'd had; and also because their living apart could easily magnifise this relationship,in the sense that one can then see the other's faults as littler,as less significants,or easier to overcome...
Moreover,maybe the nice BBM memories made them living somehow in this age,being more in love with the image they had of each other from that time than with the real persons they were.It's not unusual -I say this for my own experience...-that we project the image and memories we have from a time,a circumstance or a person into the current ones,not realising that everything is change:,sometimes for good,but sometimes also for bad, what we not always are willing,or able,to see.What's your opinion about this BBM times reflex in their lives to come,BTW?.
I'm afraid Ennis and Jack had had too many difficulties in sharing their lives,mainly because the first had builded a wall to protect him and his lover from the social and religious environment that surrounded them;but the first and greater stone he threw to this wall ALWAYS,was himself.And that is hard to endure... :-\
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowe
Post by: BlissC on March 10, 2008, 05:22:54 pm: Quote from: atz75 on March 10, 2008, 02:24:53 pm
Well, anyone who reads fanfic will know that this scenario is played out across dozens of different stories. In most cases after lots of angst, drama and complexities dealing with Ennis's fears, Jack's insecurities and issues with the community/family things work out through the strength of their love. So, at this stage it's sort of easy for me to imagine ways that it could work out. And, honestly, this is actually how I really imagine things might have worked out if Jack and Ennis had tried living together.

The first BBM fanfic I read (in fact the first fanfic I ever read!) was MadLori's "Human Interest", (gradually working my way through everything else that's out there), so maybe I'm a little swayed by that version of the way things might have panned out, but I have to say that had things taken a different turn, either when they came down off Brokeback, or after Ennis's divorce (more likely after Ennis's divorce), I think they could have made it work. Ennis would have had some huge obstacles to cross, especially his childhood fears, and his protectiveness of Jack, and their lives would definitely have been complicated, but I like to think the strength of their love would have seen them through. Wishful thinking maybe, but as Amanda says, Ennis is so stubborn that I think that if only Jack could have persuaded him to make that first huge decision, Ennis would be so stubborn he'd *have to* make it work. He'd have done anything to make Jack happy, as he did right from the start up on Brokeback, and right from the start when Jack first spoke of his dream of a "sweet life", Ennis didn't say no, that he didn't want to, but that it wouldn't have worked because of the circumstances and his fear of the repercussions. Ennis wanted that sweet life too, but his fears stopped him from making that initial huge leap. If he'd been able to overcome that, who knows?
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: forsythia12 on March 10, 2008, 05:31:22 pm: Quote from: myprivatejack on March 10, 2008, 03:26:41 pm
Above all,thanks to you Penthesilea¡ :) My opinion is the same than the ones who has written up to now; one thing is LOVING somebody and another,sometimes very and painfully different,is LIVING with him/her.In this sense,I think their love was forever,no matter even if they split,but their relationship would be harder to endure...Sometimes I've wondered if they maintained this Love's flame because they were apart,for these problems in sharing their life they'd had; and also because their living apart could easily magnifise this relationship,in the sense that one can then see the other's faults as littler,as less significants,or easier to overcome...
Moreover,maybe the nice BBM memories made them living somehow in this age,being more in love with the image they had of each other from that time than with the real persons they were.It's not unusual -I say this for my own experience...-that we project the image and memories we have from a time,a circumstance or a person into the current ones,not realising that everything is change:,sometimes for good,but sometimes also for bad, what we not always are willing,or able,to see.What's your opinion about this BBM times reflex in their lives to come,BTW?.
I'm afraid Ennis and Jack had had too many difficulties in sharing their lives,mainly because the first had builded a wall to protect him and his lover from the social and religious environment that surrounded them;but the first and greater stone he threw to this wall ALWAYS,was himself.And that is hard to endure... :-\

i completely agree with this. took the words right outta my mouth. thank you.

my question is a little OT but was always wondering what jack was going to do with randall. i mean, if they were gonna live up there, around jack's folks, was jack just going to be honest about it, or try to chalk it up to just two 'friends' living together. i mean, i think it's obvious that O.M.T. knew ....but was jack going to be open about it? would he have done the same with ennis? sorry for being OT.
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: Katie77 on March 10, 2008, 05:38:13 pm: I heard a line in a TV show the other day that has stuck in my head, and I think it would fit in here too...

In the scene,a young girl wondering whether to continue a relationship, knowing that there were going to be furture problems in it, asked her mother, whether love was enough, would love get them through for the rest of their lives.

The mothers reply was.....We fall in love with our heart, but to survive the rest of our lives together we have to live with our head....
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: forsythia12 on March 10, 2008, 06:34:19 pm: Quote from: Katie77 on March 10, 2008, 05:38:13 pm
I heard a line in a TV show the other day that has stuck in my head, and I think it would fit in here too...

In the scene,a young girl wondering whether to continue a relationship, knowing that there were going to be furture problems in it, asked her mother, whether love was enough, would love get them through for the rest of their lives.

The mothers reply was.....We fall in love with our heart, but to survive the rest of our lives together we have to live with our head....

yeah. that's how i make my marriage work. with my head.
sometimes with my heart, but mostly with my thoughts. it was different in the beginning, that's for sure.
years, fights, bills, kids, chores, ....over time it takes it's toll. it makes you stronger, but love just changes over time. i think that's what 'commitment' is.
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: Katie77 on March 10, 2008, 06:54:19 pm: Quote from: forsythia12 on March 10, 2008, 06:34:19 pm
yeah. that's how i make my marriage work. with my head.
sometimes with my heart, but mostly with my thoughts. it was different in the beginning, that's for sure.
years, fights, bills, kids, chores, ....over time it takes it's toll. it makes you stronger, but love just changes over time. i think that's what 'commitment' is.

The 3 C's..........committment.....communication.....compromise
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: elomelo on March 11, 2008, 10:28:01 pm: I agree that living with someone is definitely very different from simply loving someone but with time, learning and possibly a bit more understanding between each other, Ennis and Jack could make it work. Not to say there wouldn't be any rough patches because there would be plenty, if not more than usual; the homophobic fears instilled in Ennis' mind as a child wouldn't help as wouldn't Twist Sr.'s treatment of his son.

Maybe it's just me and the countless sweet-life fanfics I've read - hey, I know I'm not alone in that ;D - Ennis and Jack would face several obstacles, and each other could be the biggest one. Ennis is quieter and more cautious with his words and actions, and has grown up knowing that hopes and dreams don't do much. Jack is a bit more trusting towards others - too trusting at times - and despite his abusive childhood, clings to the very hopes and dreams Ennis avoids like the plague. Yeah, opposites might attract but clashing personalities might just do exactly that - clash. Violently, even, seeing as Ennis and Jack are both manly men in their own eyes, anyway, with pride they defend. Not that I see Ennis hurting Jack unless things got out of hand or certain lines were overpushed.

And society happens to be a huge obstacle! If they could find a 'safe' place to live, they might not be welcomed with open arms but at least that safety was there. Then again that safety might not be permanent.

(Okay, I've started ranting again - apologies! I tend to do that, alot xD)

One thing - I'm not sure if it's appropriate for this topic/thread - I find that a lot of people dump the 'blame' of the not-living-together situation on Ennis. Not that it isn't because it is, in many parts, but Jack has his own fears too. If he didn't, he would've tried to stop Ennis from leaving that parking lot after they came off that mountain.

Ah, I have to get going. Snap, I was getting into the 'vibe' too. xD Well I might be back tomorrow to rant, again..so please share your insights (: Which are all VERY well thoughout by the way. :)
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowe
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 11, 2008, 11:57:24 pm: Quote from: elomelo on March 11, 2008, 10:28:01 pm

One thing - I'm not sure if it's appropriate for this topic/thread - I find that a lot of people dump the 'blame' of the not-living-together situation on Ennis. Not that it isn't because it is, in many parts, but Jack has his own fears too. If he didn't, he would've tried to stop Ennis from leaving that parking lot after they came off that mountain.

Heya elomelo!

Great post. And, I agree that lots of folks tend to blame Ennis more about the not-living-together situation than Jack. Both of them certainly have their flaws within the relationship and, from my perspective, seem to have quite different fears and issues where it comes to the progress of the relationship. I think for Ennis's part, his fears about homophobia/society/violence are a huge factor and probably one of the primary factors playing into them not giving the "cow and calf operation" at least a try. I think Jack would spring at the opportunity to try living with Ennis. At the reunion he's already decided that he'd be willing to leave Lureen and Bobby to try living with Ennis. And, when Ennis divorces he drops everything and rushes to Wyoming. So, from his side, he doesn't seem to have the same ingrained fears about homophobia and violence (that he's very aware of and sees in Ennis... but doesn't seem to have the same, personal visceral rection to). I think Jack's main fears are all about pushing Ennis away or pushing Ennis too far. I think the fear of losing Ennis is Jack's main fear (by the end, with the lake side argument, I think it could be said that we realize Ennis has a similar fear about losing Jack). One of the ways that I think we see this manifest in Jack... is how carefully he chooses his words around Ennis (what he tells him and what he doesn't... I think mostly motivated by not wanting to scare Ennis off).

The subject of why Jack let Ennis walk away at the end of the '63 summer is such a great old question and debate. It's been argued (passionately by some) that Jack's behavior beginning with the moment when we see him dismantling the tent to the moment he drives away and leaves Ennis to walk down the road alone is a huge segment of errors on Jack's part. I, however, see this section of decisions motivated on Jack's part - first of all by an assumption that coming down from the mountain wouldn't at all constitute an end to the relationship (so he doesn't respond as lovingly to Ennis's angst and state of sadness as he could have... simply because I don't think he looks at the situation in as dire a way as Ennis) - and second of all- following the punch, I think Jack is very angry, hurt and confused. The way Ennis talks to him while they're standing next to Jack's old truck right before they part, I think was also off-putting to Jack. Essentially, I don't think he's trying as hard as he could normally because he's thrown for such a loop by the drama of the punch and the confusing nature of Ennis's reaction to the whole situation.

Around here, I'm sort of famous, for at least trying to always strike a balance between Jack and Ennis ... and trying not to favor one over the other. But, in this particular scenario, I tend to see things more from Jack's perspective. Although, I certainly have sympathy for Ennis in his confusion and in his huge sadness about leaving Jack. I just don't think he communicates the nature of his angst and sadness to Jack here in a way that Jack can even understand or respond to in an effective way.
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowe
Post by: BlissC on March 12, 2008, 01:11:54 pm: Quote from: atz75 on March 11, 2008, 11:57:24 pm
Although, I certainly have sympathy for Ennis in his confusion and in his huge sadness about leaving Jack. I just don't think he communicates the nature of his angst and sadness to Jack here in a way that Jack can even understand or respond to in an effective way.

I tend to agree, and I agree following the punch Jack's obviously hurt and confused by it. Though he is more confident than Ennis in a lot of respects, I think faced with Ennis's coldness when they come down from the mountain, he doesn't have enough confidence to confront Ennis about their true feelings for each other.

I also think it's sometimes easy to forget that at that point in the story they were still both only nineteen, and from what I remember of being a teenager (a fair while ago now - lol!), at that age I didn't always have the confidence to stand up and say what I wanted, even though I knew myself. Maybe there's a bit of that in it. It also think that maybe at that stage they were possibly both trying to deny what was happening. Falling in love for the first time at nineteen can be a damned scary experience at the best of times, without all the baggage they both had and the expectations of them.
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: winterhug on March 12, 2008, 10:52:55 pm: I don’t think it would be Ennis' fears getting in the way of a sweet life, because I don’t see him as admitting or giving in to fears. He loved his darlin’ daughters and would not want to jeopardize his relationship with them, so I don’t see Ennis ever consenting to living with Jack or any other man. He just couldn’t reconcile his own desires with the family he created. More than fears I see it as stubborn resistance, sacrificing his happiness and retaining the respect and love of Alma Jr. and Francine the only way he thought possible. Ennis’ lack of imagination at what “could be” was more of a barrier than his fears were.

If by some chance living together with Jack had become a reality, then yes I think he would have thrived at the sweet life. From Jack he “learned” he could love another man, so Jack also could have coached him and helped him with personal struggles. Coming from the background Ennis did, I think he had very low expectations for life, so anything at all… even Jack just living near by might have been “sweet” to him.
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: Marge_Innavera on March 13, 2008, 10:20:33 am: I think that the step of deciding to live with Jack would be Ennis' biggest hurdle and once he got over that, they'd have a good chance of having a good life together. But the internalized lack of comfort level with his sexuality would be something he'd always have to deal with. I don't think he would have ever gotten over that.

There was a question about whether homosexuality was legal in the US in the 1960s. In 1963 and 1967 it was still considered a mental disorder, probably brought on by some kind of malfunction in the family. It wasn't until 2003 and the Lawrence v. Texas decision that anti-"sodomy" laws were struck down nationwide, although it had been decriminalized in 28 states by 2000. According to CBC News, it was decriminalized in Wyoming in the 1970s. ( http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/samesexrights/timeline_world.html )

Of course, that doesn't mean it would have been safe for Ennis and Jack to live together openly. That's one reason I've always thought that the arrangement Jack thought of in Lightning Flat was the most realistic one. Whatever contact with the outside world the Twists had in Lightning Flat, what outsiders would have perceived was that this was an older couple who were having trouble keeping the ranch together; their only son gets divorced and moves back home to help run the ranch -- it would be his one day, after all -- and they have a hired man (or maybe a "cousin" or "nephew") living on the premises in a cabin. With that whole area being so sparsely populated, it isn't likely that anyone would be aware that Jack was living in the cabin and not in his parents' house. That setting being so removed from most of the outside world could help with Ennis' anxieties as well. When he refers to Earl and Rich having been "the joke of the town," he's referring not only to people having known about Earl and Rich living together -- with fatal consequences later -- but there's also a suggestion that Ennis' internal fears include a fear of ridicule, of being looked upon as an outsider and a freak.

Where Ennis and Jack would have had to be careful, in terms of gay-bashing or even just people noticing and Ennis reacting negatively to that, would be on any trips to Gillette for supplies. Ennis thinking that "this thing" could overwhelm them at a fatal moment if they were living together is naive: what would more likely have made their relationship obvious in public would have been little things -- casual touches, casual references.

And Lightning Flat might have been more realistic financially -- I'm not sure that Jack's father-in-law would really have given him enough of a bribe to buy a ranch, but whatever Jack got could have been put to good use buying materials for the cabin and for the ranch generally. Jack's father would have been an obstacle. But in Ennis' visit, he seems more troubled by the fact that the ranch is going downhill than about his son's relationship with the man he keeps talking about, and if Ennis and Jack had their own living quarters and were at the house only occasionally, that might help. And once there were some noticeable improvements at the ranch, it's still unlikely that he'd give them any blessing but IMO he would have been able to live with it.
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 13, 2008, 10:29:57 am: Very interesting, Marcia! This bears out my own personal experiences. On my latest trip to Wyoming, I wore a favourite shirt that said "Brokeback BBQ 2007" on it. One of my travelling companions was nervous when he saw me wearing it, when I finally got the chance to take my coat off at the Crazy Woman Cafe in Ten Sleep. But nobody there paid me any mind.
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: elomelo on March 14, 2008, 01:54:03 pm: Quote from: Marge_Innavera on March 13, 2008, 10:20:33 am
And Lightning Flat might have been more realistic financially -- I'm not sure that Jack's father-in-law would really have given him enough of a bribe to buy a ranch, but whatever Jack got could have been put to good use buying materials for the cabin and for the ranch generally. Jack's father would have been an obstacle. But in Ennis' visit, he seems more troubled by the fact that the ranch is going downhill than about his son's relationship with the man he keeps talking about, and if Ennis and Jack had their own living quarters and were at the house only occasionally, that might help. And once there were some noticeable improvements at the ranch, it's still unlikely that he'd give them any blessing but IMO he would have been able to live with it.

Good point!

And the location of Lightning Flat is really out in the middle of nowhere so Ennis would probably feel more comfortable living way out there instead of in the city.

Yeah, OMT does really seem more bothered about his failing ranch and it's quite apparent he knows of Jack's sexuality, so even if he were to be a complete prick, he'd let Ennis live on the ranch as long as he pulled his own weight and helped out. But Ennis's respect for OMT...hmm, though it was never shown in the movie, Jack tells Ennis of the incident where his father humiliates him and pees on him when he was barely four years old would give Ennis to hate the man's guts.

Ma Twist might be more welcoming as she knows what Jack meant to Ennis and seemed happy to have Ennis over, and asks him to visit them often. Though she didn't stop Twist Sr's abuse on her son, she loved him and would have wanted him to be happy, no matter who with.
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: Marge_Innavera on March 14, 2008, 04:13:28 pm: Quote from: elomelo on March 14, 2008, 01:54:03 pm
Yeah, OMT does really seem more bothered about his failing ranch and it's quite apparent he knows of Jack's sexuality, so even if he were to be a complete prick, he'd let Ennis live on the ranch as long as he pulled his own weight and helped out. But Ennis's respect for OMT...hmm, though it was never shown in the movie, Jack tells Ennis of the incident where his father humiliates him and pees on him when he was barely four years old would give Ennis to hate the man's guts.

Well, hating an in-law's guts would give Ennis something in common with quite a few married people since the beginning of steaming time..... ;D
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: elomelo on March 14, 2008, 04:14:28 pm: Quote from: Marge_Innavera on March 14, 2008, 04:13:28 pm
Well, hating an in-law's guts would give Ennis something in common with quite a few married people since the beginning of steaming time..... ;D

;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: elomelo on March 14, 2008, 04:16:07 pm: Doesn't hating the father in-law or not being in good terms with the father in-law usually what men do as fathers are most protective of their daughters? Just a thought and besides, Jack isn't a woman. Then again, this point would be good leverage to get Ennis to ranch up with him.

Now I'm just musing out loud :)
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: THE WINGS on March 15, 2008, 05:18:18 am: I would have to say, rather pragmatically, that in the end, Ennis's fears would have "won out", over the emotional bond that had developed between he and Jack. Annie Proulx even acknowledged that their's was a relationship that was 'doomed-from-the start', given the time period, and culture they were brought up in. There really could be no other outcome, as much as we would all like to have seen it end differently. This is a story of "how things are" as opposed to "how we would like them to be", and dare say "how they SHOULD BE." Let's face it: "REALITY BITES" ....BIG TIME!!!! The only glimmer of hope is at the end, where Ennis finally decides not to "miss out" on the opportunity to be at his first-born daughter's wedding. Also, his barely audible protestation of his love, albeit, "after the fact" for Jack in the closing scene.

I hope I have made sense here. ( Sorry, I'm still grieving).

THE WINGS
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowe
Post by: BlissC on March 15, 2008, 07:46:30 am: Quote from: THE WINGS on March 15, 2008, 05:18:18 am
There really could be no other outcome, as much as we would all like to have seen it end differently. This is a story of "how things are" as opposed to "how we would like them to be", and dare say "how they SHOULD BE." Let's face it: "REALITY BITES" ....BIG TIME!!!!

I guess that's the ultimate truth. Much as we'd all love for them to have had a happier outcome, it couldn't happen any other way.

Doesn't stop us wishing though. :(
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowed a
Post by: Marge_Innavera on March 15, 2008, 01:00:23 pm: Quote from: elomelo on March 14, 2008, 04:16:07 pm
Doesn't hating the father in-law or not being in good terms with the father in-law usually what men do as fathers are most protective of their daughters?

Depends. More "protective" fathers than you might think are protecting their turf as much as anything else. (edited to add) Not necessarily in the sense of sexual abuse, just the psychology of a daughter as property.

In the scenario of Ennis and Jack living at Lightning Flat, John Sr.'s hostility toward his son would likely be transferred to Ennis. We're not told what the source of that is, but a fanfic with that plot line could have some interesting background. Some of the father's remarks about his son thinking he's "too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot" might suggest that John Sr. has some abandonment issues of his own that have, to put it mildly, festered over the years.
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowe
Post by: Marge_Innavera on March 15, 2008, 01:03:55 pm: Quote from: BlissC on March 15, 2008, 07:46:30 am
I guess that's the ultimate truth. Much as we'd all love for them to have had a happier outcome, it couldn't happen any other way.

Well, in the original story it couldn't have happened any other way because that's how the author ended the story and those characters are her creation. But this is a thread for speculation -- that's why the "would have" in the thread title is there.

Proclamations like "reality bites" -- whether shouted via all-caps or not -- and especially in discussion of fictional characters, are power claims and little else.
Title: Re: TOTW 08/08: What if they had lived together? Would Ennis's fears have allowe
Post by: BlissC on March 15, 2008, 09:09:30 pm: Quote from: Marge_Innavera on March 15, 2008, 01:03:55 pm
Well, in the original story it couldn't have happened any other way because that's how the author ended the story and those characters are her creation. But this is a thread for speculation

Yep, I guess that's true. To be honest I'm torn between thinking "this is the way it is and the way it has to be" and "anything's possible" - today I'm in a "just not possible" mood, but it's just as likely that tomorrow I'll be thinking "Well maybe..." (and now I've had a couple of vodka and tonics so I'm feeling much more chilled LOL!).

I guess going back to the original story, if either one of them had done things slightly differently, not been different people or different characters or anything, then the ending could have worked out very differently.

At the root of it I guess the original story still has a powerful hold over me, and at times it does feel like there couldn't have been any other way, and that Ennis's fears would have never have allowed him to entertain the idea of them living together, but then at other times, reading fanfic where there's a different outcome or one or other of them says something that suggests that maybe, just maybe it might be possible, I think it might be.

A few weeks ago I was reading a fanfic that filled in some of the scenes missing from the story and the film, and it wasn't so much what was said, or even what was happening, but a glimpse of them together on one of their fishing trips, just for a short week, just them being together and making camp together, and waking up next to each other together every day, that suddenly made me think that anything's possible. RL stuff's been a PITA, but I'd find myself at odd moments smiling and thinking of something they'd said to each other or a glance or something, and I'd just *feel* that yeah, anything's possible.

At the end of the day yes, they are fictional characters, and yes, in fiction, anything's possible. Possible yes, probable, maybe not...but then Jack has a powerful hold over Ennis, so who knows?