BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum
Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: Penthesilea on July 30, 2007, 08:50:30 am
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Howdy BetterMostians!
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http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,12186.0.html (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,12186.0.html)
Since this is the very first Topic of the Week, I'll explain the idea behind it in short:
- The Topic of the Week is a Brokeback related question which is in focus at the Open Forum for one week.
- You can reply with only a short "Yes" or "No" in your message.
- We encourage everybody to further elaborate their opinion, but of course you don't have to.
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- Every member of BetterMost is encouraged to send their suggestions for a Topic of the Week per PM to Katherine or me.
Here is our brand new, fresh from the press, first Topic of the Week:
Did Ennis know early on that he was in love with Jack?
Discuss and enjoy! :D
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No - I don't think he even new what love was.
He knew he had found a new friend he could talk to but I don't think it hit him until they had to leave the mountain... when he was sitting all alone on that little hill just thinking.
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I think he started to realise it when he came down off the mountain, and I am referring to AP's wonderful "headlong and irreversible fall", I think Ennis knew at that moment that he had fallen in love and that his love for Jack would be forever.
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I don't think he knew (or more to the point understood) what love was until he got the postcard. For me, the life lesson that Ennis learned was not about his sexuality, but about loving and being loved. He never knew what love was, or supposed to be, until he lost it. That's why I feel the end of the story, while very sad, left me with a feeling of hope...for him, and for all of us. That's what I thought he meant by: "Jack...I swear..."
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I don't think that Ennis knew he was in love with Jack until the 4 year reunion, but when they came down from the mountain Ennis was heaving in that alley way because as much as he tried to suppress his feelings, he needed (loved?) Jack. (`?`)
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No. He didn't have enough self-awareness at that point to recognize and name such a feeling. The story shows him evolving over a period of decades into the acknowledgement of who he is both as a loving and a sexual being.
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No. He didn't have enough self-awareness at that point to recognize and name such a feeling. The story shows him evolving over a period of decades into the acknowledgement of who he is both as a loving and a sexual being.
Why then in llater years, did Ennis stopped seeing Jack as often as he once did? I mean he was living a lonely alone life with nobody, except maybe his girls occasionally. Its proven by the Thanksgiving "Jack Nasty" scene when he tells Alma he doesnt see Jack that often. and also when Cassie ran into him in the diner. Apparently he didnt see her anymore either
It breaks my heart when he turns Jack away after his divorce was final. It could have been some sweet life.
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Why then in llater years, did Ennis stopped seeing Jack as often as he once did? I mean he was living a lonely alone life with nobody, except maybe his girls occasionally. As proven by the Thanksgiving "Jack Nasty" scene and also when Cassie ran into him in the diner.
It breaks my heart when he turns Jack away after his divorce was final.
This is one of the reasons I think that Ennis' emotional devleopment didn't realy start until Jack died, and Junior came to him about her wedding. Look at the questions he asked her.
What we saw in Ennis, when he recieved the postcard, and up to he point that Junior came to him, was grief, pure and simple, along with a great deal of self-pity and an increase in his self-loathing. His reaction to Juniors news, and the subsequent moment with the shirts was really the beginning of Ennis emotional blossoming.
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I think the answer might be slightly different for story-Ennis vs. movie-Ennis. I think both versions of Ennis definitely were in love with Jack very early on. I think film-Ennis became smitten with Jack during that very early bar scene right after their meeting with Aguirre. But, the question of when Ennis identified the emotion as love is more tricky. I agree that film-Ennis probably started really identifying the emotion as love around the time of the reunion (even if he would be reluctant to admit to the word "love" etc.). But at the same time, it's hard to interpret what his emotions were as he and Jack were descending the mountain. Maybe his brooding moment, sitting out in the field just prior to Jack's lasso trick and all his subsequent angst were meant to indicate that Ennis was getting closer to understanding that his emotions were about love. I think it's easier to believe that story-Ennis definitely knew his emotions were about love at the time that they came down from the mountain.
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It breaks my heart when he turns Jack away after his divorce was final. It could have been some sweet life.
Someone on the old IMDb board the other day (yes, there are still occasional edifying posts on that board) opined that Ennis accepting Jack's offer would have been tantamount to admitting that both he and Jack were homosexual (or were at least involved in a homosexual relationship). As long as he could rationalize their relations as "this thing" that takes hold of them, he could deal with it somewhat, but was confronted with fear and loathing when the truth was pushed too close to his consciousness (note his reaction when he learns of Jack's trips to Mexico). The poster went on to state that Jack eventually realized the hopelessness of the situation, but it took him a tragically long time to do so.
It took Jack's death to force Ennis into conscious awareness of the truth of his heart...only, sadly, it was too late for Jack to then be a part of that. As Scott wrote above, there is hope in knowing that Ennis at least at last has acknowledged his capacity for love and the importance of loving.
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But at the same time, it's hard to interpret what his emotions were as he and Jack were descending the mountain.
The descent from the mountain was as much a fall from grace as it was a metaphor for falling in love.
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The descent from the mountain was as much a fall from grace as it was a metaphor for falling in love.
And coming down from paradise, from the heights of passion and love to the plains where those feelings weren't acceptable anymore.
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And coming down from paradise, from the heights of passion and love to the plains where those feelings weren't acceptable anymore.
Yes, astute observation. The mountain, dangerous though it was, was always safer for the boys than the so-called "civilized" world below.
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I don't think Ennis had the internal vocabulary to explain to himself just what it was he was feeling. If you give something a name, it becomes more real. He simply called it a one-shot thing and was thinking about the fact that he was already committed to marrying Alma after they finished their job.
I do think that his gazing at Jack, especially when the latter was riding the horse up on the mountain as the sheep grazed and Ennis was in the stream, was part of his unnameable feelings.
Jack, on the other hand, seemed smitten with Ennis from the time he pulled up outside Aguirre's trailer in his truck.
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No.
He didn't know that he could be in love with a man. And, of course, when he finally did, it was too late. :'(
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No - I don't believe Ennis was able to conceptualize what he felt for Jack as love. He may have realized that he liked Jack, or was very fond of him. Ennis' conceptualization of his feelings was external - this "thing" that grabs hold of him - but I do believe he came to internalize those feelings later in his life.
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There's only one person can answer this question - Ennis.
All the rest is simply conjecture IMHO.
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As with everything about this movie i hesitate to make firm and certain statements. To say I do or don't know about what either of them felt, is difficult with the limited evidence given. However I do * think* Jack did know it was love. Ennis was not as someone said very self aware. He only knew that he had the best friend he had ever had in his short life. He knew also that he loved having sex with Jack. That much is obvious. But to call it love. I doubt it. In the beginning I don't think he even knew what love was really. I don't think he really did know it was love, until Jack died, and he found the shirts. I do think after that he knew. Otherwise he would not have asked Jr. "Does he love you?"
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There's only one person can answer this question - Ennis.
All the rest is simply conjecture IMHO.
I'd agree with you bud! But conjecturing can be fun though ;D
For my own conjecturing, I really don't know. I like to run through all the many permutations of when & where etc & I love the fact the story & movie can both seem so ambiguous on not just this very important question, but many others too. I do know that Ennis definitely felt the amazing emotional euphoria of being in love with Jack but I accept that I just cannot pin down when he knew what it was with enough certainty to pin my (cowboy) hat on it.
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There's only one person can answer this question - Ennis.
All the rest is simply conjecture IMHO.
Well, Ennis is a fictional character subject to infinite interpretations from reader to reader (or viewer to viewer). That's one of the joys of fiction (I think). The infinite capacity for interpretation. I think Proulx was very, very serious about her imperative that we're supposed to finish the story in our own lives (by which I also take her to mean... impose our own interpretations).
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Yes he knew it in his heart it was love at first sight Ennis, being a loner, found it dificult to make friends~
and so he kept to himself when he met Jack~Jack was the oposite of Ennis and was very outgoing
and he slowly drew Ennis Out~As the days went by on Brokeback, A remarkable thing happened, Ennis
began to come out of his shell and he began to realize for the first time in his life he was happy!
Being that it was Ennis's first llove experience- he never gave it a name.
So they were alone and Brokeback became their Garden of Eden~
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Being that it was Ennis's first llove experience- he never gave it a name.
This is a beautiful way to express this.
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I dont think Ennis KNEW he was in love with Jack......but I do think he loved him.....
He loved the comfort he felt with Jack, he loved being with him there on that mountain, he hated it, when it when he knew it was over..he knew that his life had changed.....
But he probably didnt realize he was in love with Jack, until he saw him again, after those four years....
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He didn't know that he was in love, but he knew that something was going on, something that he had never felt before. He felt great elation, oftentimes when he had just left Jack, felt better than he ever had, felt "he could paw the white out of the moon." And when he saw it was all going to go away suddenly on that day in mid-August, it hit him like a ton of bricks. That's when he knew, I think, and that's why we see him spitting. It's Ang Lee's way of showing what was written in the story as thoughts.
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I feel that Ennis's acknowledgement of even his attraction for Jack would have remained sublimated if Jack had never boldly drawn his friend's hand onto his hopeful member. Ironically, if Jack hadn't unambiguously introduced the sexual element into the relationship, the men probably would have seen more of each other over the years (no need to hide out in the middle of nowhere, the local bar would have done just fine to shoot the breeze for old times' sake). But that one spark of passion would have remained unfulfilled.
Ennis probably would still have recognized the extent of his feelings once Jack had died (sexuality and love all together). But again, it would have been too late.
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I feel that Ennis's acknowledgement of even his attraction for Jack would have remained sublimated if Jack had never boldly drawn his friend's hand onto his hopeful member. Ironically, if Jack hadn't unambiguously introduced the sexual element into the relationship, the men probably would have seen more of each other over the years (no need to hide out in the middle of nowhere, the local bar would have done just fine to shoot the breeze for old times' sake). But that one spark of passion would have remained unfulfilled.
Ironic, isn't it? I think the same thing every time Ennis watches out for the white truck so 'unnecessarily' alarmed in the post-divorce scene. If he and Jack hadn't been lovers, he wouldn't have given the truck any thought, probably even would not have registered it at all. :(
Ennis probably would still have recognized the extent of his feelings once Jack had died (sexuality and love all together). But again, it would have been too late.
I'm note sure about this. My gut feeling says no to your statement, but I will think a bit more about it....
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On a second thought....
Your (Scott's) statement and my reply seem to imply that nothing sexual would have happened between Ennis and Jack if it weren't for Jack's move that drunken night.
But I don't think that's the case. I think if it hadn't been *that* night, it would have happened at another time anyway.
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I think Ennis's view of the world involved how he was expected to be useful to others. His socialization was extreme and it was made clear to him that his needs and desires were of no importance. He saw himself as a minor part of a larger picture and he had obligations to his family, Aguirre, Alma, his kids, the courts, his ranch bosses, Cassie, and all the people on the sidewalk in town. His wishes and desires were unimportant.
His life was based on survival and not on comfort, happiness or fulfillment. His meals, like his other consumptions, were spartan - but he spent little time bitching or expecting more.
Love was just another four letter word to him.
In the novella Annie Proulx uses the word 'love' for the love Jack had for a little dog, the love that Ennis had for his daughters, and as a closing to Alma's suspicious note to Ennis.
The closest to love expressed to Ennis in his early life - that we see - was his mom telling her little cowboy that it's time to hit the hay. Time to hit the hay and be ready to 'work' again tomorrow.
So when Jack Twist came along and connected with Ennis, it sparked him into being a more complete human, but no more aware of love as a thing that he deserved on a daily basis. Yes Ennis enjoyed the social and sexual activity with Jack, but it was like whiskey, round steak or elk meat. Enjoy it while you have it, but don't expect to have it all the time. There was comfort in the closeness to Jack, but his personal comfort did not pay the bills, satisfy the boss or the wife or please the people on the sidewalk. Being with Jack was a guilty pleasure for Ennis.
On that fateful day when Ennis got the news:
Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED.
Suddenly he knew that his guilty pleasure wasn't there anymore. And it never would be again. Even after that, does Ennis feel pangs of love for Jack, or just the hunger for a bit of steak once in a while? He knows there's a hole in his life. He knows Jack valued even his old shirt. He knows that you should marry the person you love, not the person appointed for you by circumstances or families.
Even then does he know that the feeling he has for a MAN called Jack is a kind of love? Can he experience love as a fine unfiltered thing between two sharing humans? I think more than the vocabulary is missing. I think Ennis has the phantom pains you have when an arm is missing, but you don't have to 'love' your arm to miss it and to know that you need it to do the day-to-day things that make life worthwhile.
Ennis loved Jack from Day One.
But what is love if you deny it all your life?
But what is love if you feel that you don't deserve it?
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Wonderful analysis, Toast.
But what is love if you feel that you don't deserve it?
This is absolutely key to understanding Ennis's situation. He didn't think he deserved anything more than what life had thrown him, hard knocks and all. Ennis arguably didn't love himself, and if one has no self-regard, one has more difficulty in appreciating and honoring the soul of another.
Yet..."Jack, I swear..."--a faltering attempt, surely, at naming that enthralling thing that grabbed hold of two nineteen-year-old boys on a remote Wyoming mountain top once upon a faraway summer.
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But I don't think that's the case. I think if it hadn't been *that* night, it would have happened at another time anyway.
I certainly think it could have. But I do believe it would have taken Jack to initiate it.
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The way you have phrased the question, I'd almost have to say "Not until he found the shirts." It's the application of THAT WORD which makes me put so late a date on it. WAS he in love with Jack? I would say as soon as the feeling of friendship had been translated into passion....by the seoond night in tent.
Maggie (B73) has an interesting theory. She thinks he realizes Jack was in love with HIM when Cassie says "Girls don't fall in love with fun." In other words, he realizes that just because he's "no fun," (sometimes)...would no more keep Jack from loving him than it did Cassie.
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The way you have phrased the question, I'd almost have to say "Not until he found the shirts." It's the application of THAT WORD which makes me put so late a date on it. WAS he in love with Jack? I would say as soon as the feeling of friendship had been translated into passion....by the seoond night in tent.
Maggie (B73) has an interesting theory. She thinks he realizes Jack was in love with HIM when Cassie says "Girls don't fall in love with fun." In other words, he realizes that just because he's "no fun," (sometimes)...would no more keep Jack from loving him than it did Cassie.
Interesting perspective you have on this topic.. Seems to be very logical, but whose to say love's logical?
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He loved the comfort he felt with Jack, he loved being with him there
on that mountain,he knew that his life had changed.A remarkable thing
happened, Ennis began to come out of his shell and he began to realize
for the first time in his life he was happy 8)
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Your thoughts, Jeff, made me think of that line in the story "Thought he could paw the white out of the moon." :)