I agree with both of you. What makes the end of the movie so tragic for me is that Ennis was almost there, he had almost traveled all the way around the coffeepot to find the handle, the answer. And he was almost ready to agree to a life with Jack. That's why he broke off with Cassie. But I don't think Jack recognized it, because he was embittered.
Well, many have said, and I agree, that Jacks spirit died the day he drove up when Ennis got his divorce. You never see him smile after that.
He smiles that last night by the lake, after Ennis says "you probably deserved it", though I have to say it is one of the saddest, most heartbreaking smiles I've ever seen, and it's followed by "Tell you what..." I definitely agree that Jack's spirit died that day.
But it's hard to believe Jack doesn't pick up on how blase Ennis sounds.
And my opinion is that, yes, by this point Ennis has realized that he is gay and has partly come to terms with it. I know many people find this view debatable, to say the least. But he seems so unexcited and passive about Cassie -- far less so than he was about Alma, even. He gets dragged into the relationship because Cassie came on so strong and he figures that's what he's "supposed" to do. But when he breaks up with her, it's because he realizes there's no point in keeping up the pretense.
Ennis said he'd been putting the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit, but it wasn't going anywhere and she had some problems he didn't want.
Jack said he'd had a thing going with the wife of a rancher down the road in Childress and for the last few months he'd slank around expecting to get shot by Lureen or the husband, one. Ennis laughed a little and said he probably deserved it.
I wonder what Ennis is thinking when Cassie says "I don't get you..."? He looks at her in a thoughtful way. If he would allow himself to at that moment, would he even be capable of answering that question with "well, I'm already in love with a man"... or "I'm gay"? Has he come that far by the time of this conversation? I think most of the film while Jack is alive is like watching Ennis inch slowly towards the conscious conclusion that he's gay and should do something to "fix" his relationship with Jack. I think there's not doubt he's gay all along (but coming out to himself in a clear way in his head obviously is a long process for him). I wonder... in terms of the chronology of things... Are we supposed to think that Jack is already dead (un-beknownst to Ennis) by the time the pie scene comes?
Jack's death is like a sledge-hammer epiphany about a lot of this to Ennis. The fact that he actually takes it upon himself to do something awkward and bold for Jack following his death is an enormous sign I think. I mean not only does he pick up a phone and talk to Lureen, but he actually gets in his truck and drives all that way to visit Jack's parents (clearly an awkward situation for him in some ways). Throughout their 20 year love affair Jack couldn't drag Ennis up there. And, yet Ennis does this on his own (he's clearly anxious and wanting to do this) following the death. Those actions show how much Ennis feels responsible for Jack and how much he really does think of himself as Jack's partner.
What makes the end of the movie so tragic for me is that Ennis was almost there, he had almost traveled all the way around the coffeepot to find the handle, the answer. And he was almost ready to agree to a life with Jack. That's why he broke off with CassieYes, you're so right. And for me, the lake scene was a big catalyst for Ennis to come forward.
Also, there's something about Ennis' manner at the kitchen table that I can't quite articulate that tells me he has acknowledged that he and Jack were a couple.I think at this point Ennis had finally made the whole way (round the coffeepot). He knew it. And all his guards were down at this moment. I guess if Mr. Twist had directly accused him of being his son's lover or something along this tenor, Ennis would not even have denied it. Not at this very moment.
David - I agree that Jack lost a lot of hope after the 'divorce' scene and we don't ever see either of them smiling & relaxed again w/ each other, but Jack continued to try and move Ennis forward throughout the film:
"You going to do this again next summer?"
"What are we goina do now?" (Motel scene)
"It could be like this, just like this always"
"You & Alma, that's a life?"
"Got your message about the divorce...I thought it meant ..."
"Maybe you should move somewhere else, Texas maybe..."
"Live your f...ing miserable life, I was just thinking out loud!"
"You ain't found someone else..."
"Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
"I did once." (Resignation, but what if Ennis had responded differently)
And, even when Ennis cried, "Get the f... off me!" Jack held on tight & again said, "It's alright, s'alright"
I agree that Ennis was almost there after the lake scene. I also think the November meeting would have been 'IT' - one way or another.
This is all really interesting. I also agree that if they had met up in November, big decisions would have been made.
That is the $64,000 question. IF they met up in November.
I sure know that Ennis was anxious to see Jack and perhaps make some consessions. But I keep watching the DVD and that shot of Jack watching Ennis drive away. Plus the comment his dad made about Jack and Randall in the spring. I almost.....repeat almost wonder if the lakeside fight was the last straw in Jacks mind?
A poster on TOB called clancypants, who often has really interesting posts, wrote a long essay arguing that Jack DID break up with Ennis -- as a favor to Ennis! To let him off the hook and ease his torment, after he realized in the last argument that Enni was never going to change. Clancypants marshalled all kinds of evidence and made a strong case. But it was just WAY too depressing, and I didn't agree with all the reasoning, so I opted to reject it.
A poster on TOB called clancypants, who often has really interesting posts, wrote a long essay arguing that Jack DID break up with Ennis -- as a favor to Ennis! To let him off the hook and ease his torment, after he realized in the last argument that Enni was never going to change. Clancypants marshalled all kinds of evidence and made a strong case. But it was just WAY too depressing, and I didn't agree with all the reasoning, so I opted to reject it
I also think that even if Jack had mentally broken up with Ennis after the argument, he would have gone running back to Ennis if he had lived to receive that last postcard.
If Jack had decided to break up whith Ennis, he would have done it directly. He never would have ignored the postcard without any reaction and left Ennis out in the rain whithout knowing what happened. How cruel would that have been? No, Jack would not have done this.
And I think he would not have done it over the phone or in a letter (also a Rontrigger thought which I agree with). He would have quit Ennis face to face - if that was his intention (what I doubt). So at least he had shown up in November to make everything clear.
Oh wow... yet another symbol to dig into! I've never thought much about the guns, though I've always thought they probably mean a lot. It's too late to really ponder in-depth tonight. I'll go seek out the thread on the old board. I haven't ventured back that way for a long time... Thanks for the tip.
Guilty as charged on the coffeepot handle/clancypants-gun thing. Thanks for posting that IMDB thread, lat.
Jack's sad line... "sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" is meant to show that Randall is not satisfying to Jack as an Ennis-substitute.
5.) Jack's mother KNEW - and she KNEW that Ennis was the only one. She did not want him to believe there might have been a 'someone' else.
Oh I'm sure his mom knew that Ennis was Jacks true love. I'm sure Jack confided in her.
More than that - the way she treated Ennis; the look of understanding AND joy (?) that he couldn't 'eat no cake right now,' the gentle hand on his shoulder @ that potentially devastating moment, the way she kept her sons room, her nudge of Ennis towards the room - she knew he didn't have a place to be with Jack's ashes, but he had his moment alone there in that room, the slight smile & nod of acknowledgement when he came down w/ the shirts, when she asked Ennis - the last link to her son - to come back and see them again.
Because of all that, I know that she, when Jack mentioned 'the Rancher' knew that that man meant little to nothing to her son. I absolutely believe that she just knew.
He dislikes himself so much that he can't imagine anyone finding it "fun" to be with him. When she says that, I think he realizes that Jack found being with him fun, so to speak, because he loved him.I totally agree with this! But I have a question (and I forget how it is in the short story), but has Ennis actually 'consumed' his affair with Cassie? I mean, when you see the film, it's not even clear, whether they have ever slept together. Or is it?
Hi Jude,
Consumated you mean? Yeah, he did. Remember he told Jack he was "Putting the Blocks" to her.
Now I'm taking a guess, but isn't that a cattle reference?. Don't they put a cow in blocks so the bull can come up behind and impregnate her?
Hi Jude,
Consumated you mean? Yeah, he did. Remember he told Jack he was "Putting the Blocks" to her.
Now I'm taking a guess, but isn't that a cattle reference?. Don't they put a cow in blocks so the bull can come up behind and impregnate her?
Hi Jude,
Consumated you mean? Yeah, he did. Remember he told Jack he was "Putting the Blocks" to her.
Now I'm taking a guess, but isn't that a cattle reference?. Don't they put a cow in blocks so the bull can come up behind and impregnate her?
2.) Jack's momentary resolve to end it was broken when Ennis collapsed. I see his refusing to walk away (when it would've been the PERFECT opportunity) as Ennis shoves him & yells, "Get the f... off me!" and instead holding him & saying "Damn you" - like 'I was almost there...'
And it must be really icky by then, if it's been sitting open in his fridge since the last time she was over. People who see the movie without reading the story must be surprised -- Ennis doesn't seem the white wine type.
Oh, I guess you're right! I must have picked it up just hanging around here, because I don't have STS. It's still a little odd, though, because how many viewers are going to read the book and know why it's there, compared to those who, like you at first, will just think WTF?
You should seriously consider adding Story to Screenplay to your library, and I'm not jokin'. No Brokie should be without it.
My copy lives next to my PC.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Hey Jeff, how come you're able to look into my room? That's where my copy of StS always is: directly besides the keybord.
It was a relief to learn that white wine was a Cassie leftover and that Ennis wasn't a secret white-wine drinker!
I'm sure you're right about the book, Jeff (though I don't even have the DVD!). But as I've probably mentioned before, I get uncomfortable with so-called real-life commentary on Brokeback (except all of ours, of course). I rarely watch those making-of things. I'm not sure I'm going to watch the special features on my rental DVD. A couple of days ago I happened across a link on this board to an interview with Heath. I called it up and it looked really good, but still -- and despite my crush on Heath! -- I had to close the window before he even started talking.
Yes, I know, I'm very neurotic about this. I should add that somewhere I have read AP's essay, at least in part, and it was good, and I'm sure the others probably would be very enlightening. Maybe my reluctance has to do with destroying the illusion of the film's reality. Or maybe it goes back to our earlier discussion of Diana's comment and my disagreement with it -- maybe I'm afraid I'll hear or read something that will conflict with my understanding of the movie, and I'm pretty happy with my understanding as it is.
I understand what you're saying about not destroying the illusion of reality. For me, I'm glad to have every piece of "evidence" relating to this masterpiece that I can get my hands on, including what is known as the 2003 screenplay.
But this is the way I "build" my interpretations and understandings. I look to the story, the screenplay, and the film.
I plan to buy the Story to Screenplay book, but, from the looks of things, it might be as early as September before I can afford it.
Just how close to the actual movie timeline, movie scenes and movie dialog is the official published "Screenplay?"
That said, if anyone directly involved ever addresses the sorry/s'alright controversy, THAT I would want to know. Because there actually IS a right and wrong answer there, which viewers will otherwise never know for sure.
Oi, that one got beaten to death at IMDb! I have a vague but possibly faulty memory that someone found a statement from Jake himself on this one.
The concensus, last I heard, was that Ennis says nothing and Jack says it all and that there are no sorrys, just all rights. I lean toward that myself. But that's partly based on the observation that Ennis' lips don't move during the sorrys. The thing is, I can't see Jack's move, either, until the "s'all rights" start, at which point you can see his lips move and he nods.
But I really don't mean to dredge up the debate. We'll never know the answer for sure unless someone directly involved tells us.
One of the main things you added to the story was women. In a lot of your work, women turn out to have far richer interior lives than men.
(Larry McMurtry) I have always argued that if you want to learn something about emotion, you have to ask women. That's why I've had three women characters who've won Oscars--[for] Patricia Neal, Cloris Leachman and Shirley MacLaine. I've always thought that for my interests, emotionally, I have to seek women to talk about. Men don't talk about emotion. They don't understand it.
Maybe I'll start a thread on it? Maybe "Jake on the 'S'alrights'?"
But not just now. ... ::)
It sounds like a good idea for a thread to me... but I bet Jake/ Heath wouldn't remember. I wonder if they know there's so much controversy about the "I'm sorry" idea. I'm still firmly in the camp of people who believe that they hear it. It never even crossed my mind to question it during my theatre viewings. Heath seems to have mastered the are of ambiguous soft-speech while breathing/exhaling for this film. The "I'm sorry" problem reminds me of the new controversy over whether he says "I love you" into the double shirts. I, unfortunately, this this second idea is just wishful thinking. Heath looked completely distressed on Oprah when she asked him what Ennis's last line was. I mean if you miss that, it's almost like missing the movie.
Heath looked completely distressed on Oprah when she asked him what Ennis's last line was. I mean if you miss that, it's almost like missing the movie.
Oprah is a Class A moron. I hope Heath has come to realize, if he didn't already, that she does *not* speak for the audience of this film, or any other group, except maybe Overpaid Arrogant Assholes of America.
Sorry. Can never resist an opportunity where she's concerned. :P You're right - if you miss that, it is like missing the movie. But I think it's safe to say that she never came close to not missing it in the first place.
Oh, and as if that wasn't a stupid enough thing to say/ask, how about when she said that Jake and Heath had given "the performances OF THEIR LIVES?" I *loved* the way Jake looked at Heath for a long time after that, as if they were mind-melding on the same thought: "Jesus, I hope not. We're 25 and 26 years old, for Christ's sake!"
Idiot. Did I mention how much I loathe her?
But when Larry or Diana or Ang or Heath or Jake or Linda Cardellini or Randy Quaid or whoever makes some statement about the movie, I feel obliged to accept it because they are the "experts." I'm not free to reject it.
you can go ahead and reject them, because even they, the artists, don't collectively agree. I remember on Oprah, Anne Hathaway saying that how Jack died was obvious, and then Oprah asked "was it not obvious to anyone?" Jake raised his hand. They each interpret the story in their own way.
I remember on Oprah, Anne Hathaway saying that how Jack died was obvious, and then Oprah asked "was it not obvious to anyone?" Jake raised his hand. They each interpret the story in their own way.
Oprah is a Class A moron. I hope Heath has come to realize, if he didn't already, that she does *not* speak for the audience of this film, or any other group, except maybe Overpaid Arrogant Assholes of America.
Sorry. Can never resist an opportunity where she's concerned. :P You're right - if you miss that, it is like missing the movie. But I think it's safe to say that she never came close to not missing it in the first place.
Oh, and as if that wasn't a stupid enough thing to say/ask, how about when she said that Jake and Heath had given "the performances OF THEIR LIVES?" I *loved* the way Jake looked at Heath for a long time after that, as if they were mind-melding on the same thought: "Jesus, I hope not. We're 25 and 26 years old, for Christ's sake!"
Idiot. Did I mention how much I loathe her?
I thought when Oprah asked Anne "Did she know?" she was asking if Lureen knew about Jack and Ennis. So when Anne said it was obvious, she was referring to the reactions she had on the phone that we are are so familiar with and appriciative of that let the audience know that yes indeed, Lureen put 2 and 2 together during that conversation and knew she was talking to the person her husband really loved. At least I thought that's what they were talking about.
I must say I was disappointed that Oprah did not 'get' the movie (on her first viewing). I was eternally thankful tho' that she showcased the cast & film on her show & praised it & encouraged people to see it. She does have an unprecedented amount of influence on people regarding books, causes, films...
Another person who praised the film as one of the best & advised his vast audience to see it - Howard Stern.