OMT was an obnoxious SOB, but in the movie he doesn't say anything homophobic.I agree with crayons here. While he may have been homophobic in his own way, or with his kind who lived in the area, he never said anything in the movie or short story that removed all doubt like Joe Aguirre did.
And as a side note, living on a ranch, OMT would have seen homosexual activity between the animals on his ranch. I grew up on a farm, and it happens.....naturally.A lot of city folk are ignorant of this phenomenon, and as we are becoming a human family wherein the majority will soon be urban, I imagine the ignorance of, or at least lack of exposure to this reality will increase even further.
I LIKE old man Twist. I feel for him.
ESPECIALLY knowing the short story background.
That didn't mean I had to agree or condone the way he treated me, but it did mean that I had to not judge his understanding (or lack thereof).
But OMT is fictional. What we're really doing is analyzing fiction, which I don't see as analogous to your feelings about your father.
It's less about deciding on the morality of his behavior, or judging, than it is about understanding his character and why he said what he said and what it meant for the story.
You're missing the point. My father and Mr Twist were of the same generation, cut from the same cloth. I didn't consider my father homophic, just as I don't consider OMT homophobic, because labelling someone that presumes that they have knowledge of what they are "afraid" of. I can call them ignorant, inflexible, but not homophobic.
Well I wans't involving myself in the previous conversations. I was responding to the thread name. ???
I think comparing the characters in BBM and comparing them to your own life and expressing your thoughts and feelings is the very reason we are here.
so MY response ALSO was based on my own feelings. Sorry.
And, one point I think might be interesting to consider is that Ennis's encounter with OMT is part of his growing and learning experience following Jack's death. In meeting both of Jack's parents he learns that people could surprise him for the better in the nature of their reactions to their knowledge about his relationship with Jack.
I agree completely with this, too. I think the whole point of having OMT be surprisingly unhomophobic is to show Ennis that, contrary to his expectation that everybody is homophobic, it turns out it's not as simple as he assumed. And maybe, just to add to the tragedy of his fate, he overestimated the universality of anti-homosexual feelings.
I agree completely with this, too. I think the whole point of having OMT be surprisingly unhomophobic is to show Ennis that, contrary to his expectation that everybody is homophobic, it turns out it's not as simple as he assumed. And maybe, just to add to the tragedy of his fate, he overestimated the universality of anti-homosexual feelings.
An excellent point. I think that the fear of those forced into a closet in a what is a generally homophobic culture works both ways. Not only do the closeted hide their nature from others who MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be negatively judgemental, but they also cut off friends and relations who just might be to some degree supportive if the issue were honestly addressed. After reading the short story and seeing the movie, I thought that the scene in the Twist kitchen was one of the most tragic. I felt that OMT was in his own way trying to reach out to Ennis, and in his own oblique fashion telling him that he (OMT) regrets that Jack's ideas and plans, "never come to pass". Yes, OMT appears to most of us as a crude unpleasant man. But doesn't Jack bear some of the responsibility for cutting his parents out of much of his life? I am reminded of scientific reports of wild animals such as some in the larger sized feline family ,like cougars and panthers, who after having been raised in a cage since kittenhood will not leave the cage even if the door of the cage is opened for them. They only know the "security" of the cage and can not conceive of anything else. Perhaps that is the real tragedy of Ennis and Jack and all of those who have lived lives of quiet desperation and regret.You've honed in here on a reality of the closet that a lot of straight people do not appreciate--that they themselves are hurt and damaged by it too! Lesbigay family members and friends may choose to hide a vital part of themselves from their straight counterparts, or may even cut off relations altogether, all the potential detriment of everyone.
To threadjack.... I also believe that the book was far more sympathetic to Ennis than the movie was.
In the book, when Jack asked Ennis if he missed him, Ennis replied that he realized his biggest mistake was not going after Jack when he drove away in the pickup. Also mentioned that he used Jack as a sexual fantasy quite a bit. However, in the movie, Ennis simply replied, "I don't know."
Also the book mentioned that Ennis was confused by his bisexuality, but the movie makes no mention of this.
Ang Lee basically turned each character into an archetype. It worked, but it would have been nice to see each character as three-dimensional.
Yeah, Fran. That was a surprise when I read the book. In the book, when Jack asked Ennis if he missed him, Ennis replied that he realized his biggest mistake was not going after Jack when he drove away in the pickup. Also mentioned that he used Jack as a sexual fantasy quite a bit. However, in the movie, Ennis simply replied, "I don't know."
Also the book mentioned that Ennis was confused by his bisexuality, but the movie makes no mention of this.
Ang Lee basically turned each character into an archetype. It worked, but it would have been nice to see each character as three-dimensional.
But then, I also think of him as gay rather than bisexual. And I think of him as extremely confused by his sexuality, even though he doesn't mention it aloud. And when he says "I don't know," I think he really does know quite a bit, but again doesn't want to say it.
I think in the phone booth, when he actually *talks* to Lureen about Brokeback, this is a signal that Ennis has gone through a change.And isn't it interesting that Alma, as far as we know, and unlike Lureen, never hears the name Brokeback Mountain? Jack was always more articulate than Ennis, and accordingly revealed the name of that sacred place even to those for whom it would have had no meaning.
Was Mr. Twist homophobic?
At times, I did think so !!
At other times, I thought maybe that old man Twist is not homophobic!
Did anyone think that way: yes and then maybe no ??Moremojo please come back ; we love your posts!!
Moremojo, come back, I need you!! Your posts were delightful!!
Au revoir, to you and to all too!!
Hugs!
if we judge him by our standards, he was homophobic.
but is it useful to judge a character from a different time and place by our standards?
I think not.
My own feelings are that OMT was very disappointed in Jack, and his disappointment over Jack's failure to delivery on his plans to "lick this ranch into shape" overrode any homophobia. Lets face it, OMT understood the relationship which Jack had with Ennis, and if OMT's primary motivations were homophobic, he didn't have to let Ennis in the door at all.
Yes, I agree that OMT was disappointed in Jack... and he seems quite motivated by the whole issue of Jack coming back to the ranch to help work on the ranch (with Ennis or with another fellow... either of whom would also be a help on the ranch). He seems to be enjoying his ability to needle Ennis over his level of knowledge about their relationship and over his (OMT's) superior knowledge about certain aspects of Jack's life (i.e. the other fellow).
In all of this OMT comes across as a jerk, but not overwhelmingly homophobic. OMT seems to illustrate the point that a person can be a jerk without necessarily being homophobic (and at least not frighteningly so). I think OMT and Mrs. Twist are both learning experiences for Ennis... demonstrating that people can surprise you. That things are always as bad as his fears kept indicating to him over all those years. Mrs. Twist is kind, welcoming and seemingly accepting of his and Jack's relationship... And, OMT is a grump, but nothing too overwhelmingly intimidating.
I don't think we're given many indications that OMT really is homophobic... at least he doesn't seem virulently so.
It's interesting though that OMT was disappointed in Jack, presumably a large part of which was because Jack didn't want to settle down and sort out the family ranch. Right from the start of the SS we're told Jack was "crazy to be anywhere but Lightning Flat", which I guess is a pretty standard reaction from a teenager, both then and now - you don't want to be tied to your parents, and you want to spread your wings and be independent. Jack also tells us though that his father was never interested in his rodeoing career - I wonder why? We know that Jack had an abusive childhood, but his father's disappointment in him seemed to start before he left the family home completely. I think it's that disappointment of Jack that shines through in that scene rather than homophobia, but I'm intrigued about the source of that disappointment now.
Wow, thanks brokeplex!
You are waking me up with your news:
... I think that Jack is outright lying when on the evening of TS1 when asked by Ennis, "what is the Pentecost?" Jack said that he didn't know. Jack was his mother's only son, she was a religious Pentecostal, she would have attempted to indoctrinate Jack with her theology. I suspect that Jack just didn't wish to share all of the hellfire and brimstone theology at that moment, so he lied, ...
.........
Brokeplex and to all too:
it was obvious that Jack wanted sex with Ennis there and then, and did not want to talk at lenght about religions which stressed sex as hell (and worst: homosexuality) !!
Right??
Au revoir,
hugs!! I'll give you some free rubbers for that brokeplex!! ha! ha!!
If he was strongly so homophobic, then would he not or have yelled BAD names at the sight of Ennis entering his house?
Please answer anyone? Everyone ?
Thansk whysoserious!!
Wow, you reveal a lot !! And greatly too !!
Since I never saw before,
may I ask you:
are your female, male, other ??
I am inclined to agree with you, sadly, Artiste after thinking about it. I think OMT was condemning Ennis as a fool.
He was a sad, bitter old man who had lost his farm, his spirit, and, at last, his only son. I think he was consumed with grief and one of the earliest stages of grief is anger, leading on to despair and bitterness.
In fact, now that I think about it, the way OMT acted was similar to the way I saw a few people react after the death of Heath Ledger. It can bring out the worst in people. I've seen people lash out in a vindictive manner, even hatefully. Grief can change people radically. Hopefully it is temporary.
But through it all, I don't think OMT was homophobic because that would mean that he'd be repulsed by his own son. And I don't think that was the case.
I imagined OMT really saying to Ennis: "You loved my son, why didn't you protect him? I loved my son, why couldn't I protect him?" and in the end, all OMT could do is protect Jack's ashes from someone that he now wanted to see as an outsider.
I am inclined to agree with you, sadly, Artiste after thinking about it. I think OMT was condemning Ennis as a fool.
He was a sad, bitter old man who had lost his farm, his spirit, and, at last, his only son. I think he was consumed with grief and one of the earliest stages of grief is anger, leading on to despair and bitterness.
In fact, now that I think about it, the way OMT acted was similar to the way I saw a few people react after the death of Heath Ledger. It can bring out the worst in people. I've seen people lash out in a vindictive manner, even hatefully. Grief can change people radically. Hopefully it is temporary.
But through it all, I don't think OMT was homophobic because that would mean that he'd be repulsed by his own son. And I don't think that was the case.
I am inclined to agree with you, sadly, Artiste after thinking about it. I think OMT was condemning Ennis as a fool.
He was a sad, bitter old man who had lost his farm, his spirit, and, at last, his only son. I think he was consumed with grief and one of the earliest stages of grief is anger, leading on to despair and bitterness.
In fact, now that I think about it, the way OMT acted was similar to the way I saw a few people react after the death of Heath Ledger. It can bring out the worst in people. I've seen people lash out in a vindictive manner, even hatefully. Grief can change people radically. Hopefully it is temporary.
But through it all, I don't think OMT was homophobic because that would mean that he'd be repulsed by his own son. And I don't think that was the case.
I am very glad to read what you said. I have always felt that OMT was poignant and sad, not angry. Defensive, not attacking. I noticed that others didn't feel this way, and some seemed to need to see OMT as a terrible homophobic father who victimized and made fun of his son. I took a different view that OMT was deeply disappointed in his son, and regretted never being able to really be close to him.
Also, I saw a subtext in OMT's kitchen dialog with Ennis. I imagined OMT really saying to Ennis: "You loved my son, why didn't you protect him? I loved my son, why couldn't I protect him?" and in the end, all OMT could do is protect Jack's ashes from someone that he now wanted to see as an outsider.
I have had to rethink this one again.I am inclined to agree that OMT was not homophobic as I had first thought.In fact I am now starting to wonder if he actually blames Ennis for the death of Jack. Maybe that is why he wants to hurt Ennis by mentioning the new man.After all if Ennis had agreed to the "sweet life" with Jack he would still have been alive.Also OMT may have had his ranch in better shape.
So in his mind at the route of all the despair and hardships in his life he sees , Ennis.
This could also explain the ashes,as in you did not want to agree to his wishes when he was alive,why now he is dead would you want to follow his wishes.
He is undoubtedly angry and bitter.I don't for a minute think he was happy about Jacks homosexuality,but I now think maybe he tolerated it.To OMT it may seem a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has already bolted.
Curious how others here can make you completely rethink things.
Merci beaucoup optom!
How wonderful your post is... here !
Now, you got me pensive; you say that maybe OMT tolerated Jack's homosexuality !!
Jack's mother seems OK with Jack's homosexuality, you think maybe so?
Au revoir,
hugs!
I agree with the person who pointed out that as Jack returned home every year,it is unlikely that OMT would have allowed that if he was completely homophobic.
Merci optom !
You say:
I agree with the person who pointed out that as Jack returned home every year,it is unlikely that OMT would have allowed that if he was completely homophobic.
I think maybe there would have been some persuasion/coercion on the part of Mrs Twist.That is such a common role for Mothers to adopt
.....
Optom, to me too the role of Mrs. Twist is capital as she is sweet and understanding, and accepting of Jack, and, of course, of Ennis !!
However, did I get a note that she would not have wanted Jack to be a gay man, preferably ?
Au revoir,
hugs!
Merci encore optom !
You say:
The reason I think Mrs Twist and indeed myself would prefer their children not to be gay, is because no mom wants to see their kids suffer.
We play the nurturing role almost from conception,we do everything we can to keep our kids safe and happy.
..........
Optom, you do not know that I re-acted badly when years ago one of my younger brothers told me that he is gay !! I oftened wondered about that, since I am a gay man too !! The only reason, if any, is that I felt that it would be so hard for him, because it was difficult for me ??
Any thought on that ? I think too that Mrs. Twist helped Mr. Twist accept Jack's homosexuality better !!
Au revoir,
hugs!
Merci seriouscrayons !
You say:
Not only that, it's unlikely that Jack would have confided in OMT his plans to leave his wife and bring Ennis (or the ranch neighbor) up to Lightning Flat to live.
.......
Seriouscrayons, why do you say unlikely ??
Why not consider likely that Jack had confided such to Mr. Twist and/or Mrs. Twist ??
Seriouscrayons, Jack confides his plans directly to Mr. Twist, his dad ??
Yet if they are gay we know that they will encounter,many things that we would give anything for them not to.
They will be taunted,ridiculed,in some cases beaten and even murdered.So it is for that reason I would prefer my children not to be gay.
Merci broketrash !
You do pose a difficult question !
There are maybe many possible answers to that ?
Au revoir,
hugs!
Plus some mds would change the child, without parents consent !!
Right?
lets think about what you wrote.
just as a fantasy hypothetical : if you had a baby and genetic tests revealed that he or she would likely be gay (and that day may not be very far off), and your OBGYN told you that you could participate in a new almost magical treatment which if used when the child is an infant could change his chromosomes and make him or her probably straight instead of gay. would you consent to such treatment?
That is one thing that made father and I... get closer together: his acceptance of I being gay !! But I still did not talk to him about it nor afterwards, at no time at all - so are we gay men too afraid or too secretive ??
When I compare teenagers of today with my youth, it seems we parents have it pretty easy.
But I am concerned that people are learning to substitute virtual experiences, such as movies, tv, and video games, for real life relationships.
That is a very difficult question.If the society we live in had become more tolerant by that stage,then the answer would be no,I would not avail myself of any such treatment.
If it ever became possible then we presumably are talking some time in the future,And I live in hope that one day people will be more accepting.
If society is as non accepting as it is now,I truly do not know the answer.
No mother or indeed father wants their child to suffer in any form for whatever reason.My oldest son is bi polar as most here know.If I could have had a miracle treatment for that which would alter his D.N.A would I have,probably is the answer.He has been bullied from day 1 at school a he is so different.His life is hard,and so is mine dealing with his violent outbursts.
He cannot help it in the same way that homosexuals cannot.However that does not stop a large percentage of the world being cruel.I still say we need to educate people in tolerance and acceptance,not try to change the person who is bing persecuted.
I look to my ex husband who was gay.We are still in regular contact,despite being divorced for nearly 20 years now.He is the kindest,most decent lovely human you could ever hope to know.Even my strict Catholic parents still love him,They exchange Xmas cards each year.There is nothing not to love about him.
However mine and my parents reaction to him was not the norm.When he came out most of his "friends" vanished.
I remember him comming round to see me one evening in tears after a truly hideous incident.He did not deserve the treatment he got.He was and still is worth 1 million of the ignorant thugs who hurt him.
So would I want that to happen to either of my sons, or daughter ,hell no !!! It would break my heart.But then if he/she had been "treated" they would not be the children I know and love.I also know that much as I want to,I cannot protect them from everything.
I think until it actually happens to you,it is impossible to predict how you would react. When I was divorced from my 1st husband,a lot of my friends thought it odd that I did not hate him. Why, he was still the same man I fell in love with.
When I was pregnant with my daughter,I was offered a test for Downs syndrome because I was an old mother at 40.I refused it,because after much discusion with my husband we decided we would keep the baby no matter what the results of the test,so there was no point.
So I am going to sit on the fence here and say,I would probably refuse the test that would put me in the position to have to choose in the first place.I can say that in all honesty because it is exactly what I did with the Downs syndrome test.
Florida is anti-gay?? Maybe you're just in the wrong part of Florida! If your son is gay, why doesn't the whole family consider moving?
My son is a teenager, and he doesn't appear to be gay. In fact, he doesn't seem to have much of a libido at all. When I compare teenagers of today with my youth, it seems we parents have it pretty easy. But I am concerned that people are learning to substitute virtual experiences, such as movies, tv, and video games, for real life relationships.
Seriously, F-R? Wow, I have just the opposite opinion. You are a lucky mother! :)
... and online message boards? ;) I know what you mean, though, and I fear the same thing.
The most scandalous thing I am finding out is that there are quite a few girls out there who are chasing my son in a very aggressive manner. I talked to him about it, and he finds their behavior despicable.
Seriously, F-R? Wow, I have just the opposite opinion. You are a lucky mother! :)
... and online message boards? ;) I know what you mean, though, and I fear the same thing.
She would not have loved Jack any less, in fact she may have loved him more,in the way we always tend to protect those who need it most.But none of it helped.I guess her worst fears were realised.I would even go so far as to say she probably thought Jack was murdered for his homosexuality.
This is such a fascinating thread!
I'm going way back several pages to quote this little part of one of optom3's posts.
This is really interesting to me. We've spent so much time talking amongst ourselves about whether we believe Jack died by accident or was murdered... and we've pondered Ennis's belief system about the murder scenario a lot too. It seems to be a new angle to think about what OMT and Mrs. Twist believed... Since their some of the only other characters who have a relatively full picture of what was going on (at least they knew about the relationship with both Ennis and the other fellow).
I think this very well may be correct that the parents also believe that Jack was murdered. That could seriously effect how they react to Ennis. Anger and sympathy (i.e. OMT and Mrs. Twist).
Internally, they are similar, but society teaches boys to hide away their feelings.
So, there are differences in grieving between females and males ??
Au revoir,
hugs!