In addition to witnessing the post-divorce Jack visit, and the Thanksgiving debacle, the way Junior says to Cassie, "Maybe he's not the marrying kind..." made me think she knew about Ennis.
In the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner,and please excuse my paraphrase, did Alma not say about finding another woman "that me and the girls worry about you." Could this indicate that the town folk of Riverton might be running their gators that Ennis is different. The girls would surely have heard this town gossip and that confirms Ennis's preference?
TampaTalon^">
Close enough. She says he ought to get married again, and that she and the girls worry about him being alone so much.
I've never quite known what to make of Alma's claiming that she worried about her ex-husband.
I think she still loved him. I think she divorced him because he wasn't going to do the two things a husband should do (in her mind): 1) make babies and 2) support them. I don't think she divorced him because she fell out of love with him.
L
Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
It would be normal for someone her age at that time and place to "see the trees, but be confused by the forest."
Laura,
You're absolutely right that BBM in general seems to treat the behavior of children at various ages very strangely. I wonder if this has to do with the larger problem of the overall timeline (which itself is a little goofy... as we know).
As much as we all love the movie, I think they were a little sloppy on a few details, like this child development issue. It irks me when Alma, Jr. mentions her wedding date ("June 5 at the Methodist Church") because it was a Wednesday.
Tuesday, Honey (June 5, 1984)--as you showed me. ;D :-*
In the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner,and please excuse my paraphrase, did Alma not say about finding another woman "that me and the girls worry about you." Could this indicate that the town folk of Riverton might be running their gators that Ennis is different. The girls would surely have heard this town gossip and that confirms Ennis's preference?
Yes, I think she knew her dad was gay, but I don't think she was able to put a label to it in her mind. I believe out of all the characters except Jack, she understood Ennis better than anyone. Her quiet understanding and love for her father is apparent to the point of being protective of him when Cassie enters his life. She was progressive in her thinking for her age and for the time period, but again, was probably ignorant of the terms and what those terms entailed. It would be normal for someone her age at that time and place to "see the trees, but be confused by the forest." Hey, when I was her age, I still thought "gay" meant something fun and exciting, and that was a few years after 1963, although not many.
June 5th on a Tuesday in '84? I'll have to do some editing, it seems.
I imagine Alma Jr. would have been growing up in the 70s and 80s as far as when she would have first started getting an idea of the world. I can't really imagine her having much of a concept of the word gay or how her father would have fit into it especially being that she was from Riverton, Wyoming. And it is questionable whether or not she had travelled anywhere.
...I find it difficult to impossible to believe that a 19-year-old in the early 1980s would never have watched television and never heard the word "gay" used in a sexual orientation context on TV at least.
I think we're giving Junior a bit too much credit. I didn't see anything particularly "intelligent" about her.
She acts like a typical teenager from a small town.
She wants to leave her mother/stepfather's home because - gasp! - they're too strict!
She thinks marrying a roughneck at the age of 19 is a good idea with a good future.
She has a poverty-stricken father ("Daddy you need to buy some more furniture"). And seeing how meanly he is living is suddenly happy that he's going to quit his sole means of income job just for her!
Ouch! How self-absorbed is that?
No, Junior isn't the sharpest pencil in the box.
Yes, I imagine there were shows from Hollywood on TV about gays by the late 70s early 80's, but I'm sure Alma and her husband did not allow them to be aired in their home. And Junior most certainly lived at home.
And honestly, does Ennis act like any of the gay stereotypes that might have been seen on TV way back when?
As for magazines and books and newspapers...let's just say Junior doesn't look like the reading type. 8)
I definitely agree there, Marge. But there's a huge difference between hearing gayness mentioned on the TV or by giggly highschoolers, and making the leap that your big, macho, stoic father has been faking straight since before you were born, you know?
Still, maybe she's been raised to expect Ennis to quit jobs at the drop of a hat (since he clearly did this a lot in preparation for meetings with Jack).
Do we really know that Ennis is "quitting" his job to go to the wedding?
I mean, sure, he could be, and perhaps we are supposed to assume that he is. We know that he's told Jack that when he was younger he quit jobs to go away with Jack, but maybe he quit those jobs not because he wanted to quit but because the ranch owner or foreman wouldn't let him take time off and then come back to work.
I'll admit I know next to nothing about the ranching industry today or in 1984, but it still strikes me as pretty heartless to tell somebody he can't take time off to attend his own daughter's wedding.
I still find it quite frustrating that Ennis's big moment of change comes just in time to celebrate what seems to be a very conventional marriage at the Methodist church (even). In some ways it makes it seem that the only conclusion to this type of story is to have Ennis re-absorbed into a conventional role of father of the bride. The resolution for Ennis as a gay man (and the question of what will he do now... as a gay man) remains very unsettled and tragic. I'm sure the ambiguity of what his own future and personal happiness hold in store is exactly the point.
You might add, Whether he will even do anything as a gay man. It might be that the resolution doesn't even have anything to do specifically with being gay (which is perhaps part of the universality of the appeal of Brokeback Mountain). The resolution may not have anything to do with "coming out," but rather with being available to those who love us, which is a message for anybody, gay or straight.
I don't think they would have been speculating to any extent that was noticeable. After all, even now so many people think of gay men in terms of stereotypes that Ennis doesn't fit. Jack has only been in Riverton twice, and surely if anyone other than Alma saw them kissing that first time Ennis would have known about that by now. As for his not marrying again, this is a guy who's known to be very taciturn and something of a loner, so his not remarrying wouldn't necessarily surprise anybody.
If you were reading the Bird, that must have been Hotlanta in the 1970s. :D
She probably hadn't done any travelling other than Wyoming communities in the same region, such as Caspar. But I find it difficult to impossible to believe that a 19-year-old in the early 1980s would never have watched television and never heard the word "gay" used in a sexual orientation context on TV at least. Riverton might not be a metropolis, but it isn't an Amish community or a monastary. From your account, it sounds like you at least knew what the word 'gay' meant by the 1970s and I expect Alma Jr did too, even if she didn't know many details.
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I agree and understand the point you're making.
And at the same time, I still find the end enormously frustrating (personally). I'm not really even critiquing BBM for presenting the ending in this way... I'm just expressing my own, probably very personal reaction. For me, personally as a gay viewer, I still find it difficult that a movie that focuses on a gay love story as its main theme concludes with a resolution that focuses on a conventional marriage. I'm sure this frustration is part of the point. And, I'm sure many viewers (gay, straight, bi-, etc.) will see this whole scene very differently depending on their own issues and personal viewpoints.
I agree Jeff. Junior is certainly not very happy at all about Cassie being in the pickup. That is clearly not what she expected or wanted her time with her father to consist of. As far as that scene goes, I don't think it would matter whether her father was gay or anything else. She was certainly not overjoyed with Cassie. She was also not at all happy that her father brought Cassie along.
At least Alma Jr. is a decent person!
Not many are decent, not her mother that mcuh!
Hugs!
I think you are being way to harsh on Alma......as Ennis said....."aint her fault".....
...and i'm not going to get into the morality of who was wrong, or who did what in their marriage....as a mother it seems to me that Alma was very decent......
How many women have their ex-husbands to Thanksgiving?......and it is obvious she has kept Ennis' secret from everyone.....I think that is very decent.....
What a condescending characterization!
I don't think that there is evidence one way or the other as to Alma's intellectual abilities or her chioice of reading materials . Just because someone is not quoting
Proust or making up cute Haiku verse on screen, that doesn't make them a dummy.
She was a reticent young woman who would soon be finding her own way in life. She wanted her Daddy, whom she loved, to be at her wedding. She related to him in a way that convinced him to quit his job cowboying in the Tetons and attend her wedding. I'd say she was a very skillful young lady, even Jack couldn't always get Ennis to quit his job in order to see him!
Give Alma, Jr a break!
Yes, I believe the dialogue meant he was going to have to quit his job to attend the wedding. In ranching, like Ennis said when the heifers were calving, you have to be there. They have to have certain amount of manpower for a drive. Being short-handed makes it more dangerous and more work for those left behind. So basically they would replace him and then he'd have no place in the drive after the wedding. It isn't a 9-5 job with days off for weddings.
I think you are being way to harsh on Alma......as Ennis said....."aint her fault".....
...and i'm not going to get into the morality of who was wrong, or who did what in their marriage....as a mother it seems to me that Alma was very decent......
How many women have their ex-husbands to Thanksgiving?......and it is obvious she has kept Ennis' secret from everyone.....I think that is very decent.....
Remember though, Ennis at first says he cannot go to the wedding because of work, then he hesitates and in my opinion thinks about Jack and perhaps loosing Jack because he did put the work ahead of Jack. As others have said, I think this is a time when Ennis does realize the importance of those that you love. I think that is what he thinks about when he tells Junior that he will be at the wedding. Yes, he will suffer financially for going, but at this point I believe he discovers that it will be worth it to be there for his daughter. He will find another job. He may not have another chance to be with his daughter at this special time for her.
From the opening passage from Annie Proulx’s book “Brokeback Mountain.”
Again the ranch is on the market and they've shipped out the last of the horses, paid everybody off the day before, the owner saying, "Give em to the real estate shark, I'm out a here," dropping the keys in Ennis's hand. He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.
I quote this to make a few points:
1) Ranch work comes and goes.
2) Family is all Ennis is left with in the end.
I could see Junior being "self-absorbed and oblivious" if she asked Ennis for any money for the wedding, or asked him to help out as she did the rest of the family. But she didn't; she'd made all the arrangements, gotten others to contribute where they could (Monroe + Jenny) — then come by to invite her father.
Can you picture what it would be like if Ennis hadn't been invited?
"He needs to make money for child support; I won't bother him." <— To me that's the more insulting, treating him like a human cash machine rather than a family member with feelings.
So he ends up in his trailer all alone, with no supportive or caring family members? No one to lean on (emotionally or financially) in his later years? He's earned better than that, and Alma Junior knows it.
We have really got off the track of the original question here....but its been great discussion just the same....
Back to the original question.....Did Alma Jnr.know Ennis was gay?
In a nutshell........Crikey!....Ennis DID NOT KNOW he was gay.....so why or how would Alma Jnr. know....
In a nutshell........Crikey!....Ennis DID NOT KNOW he was gay.....so why or how would Alma Jnr. know....
Good point Katie!!! ;)
Although, it could be said that sometimes someone outside of oneself can see the person or situation more clearly than they can see themselves. I think self-awareness is sometimes harder than figuring out someone else.
I don't think there is any way she could have known how hard it was for Jack and Ennis whether or not she suspected or did not suspect her father was gay. I actually still find it hard to imagine that she could have used the term "gay" for Ennis. Can you only imagine if Junior would have said "Daddy I know you are gay and that is ok?" Ennis would have said "I ain't queer." :) I truly believe that the feelings Ennis had for Jack were things that he could have not put into one word such as "gay" or "queer" or whatever. They were feelings that Ennis did not know how to deal with in his mind. They were real feelings that I don't think Ennis could have found a word which would describe it. In fact, it may be that Junior understood him more than he understood himself.
I definitely agree there, Marge. But there's a huge difference between hearing gayness mentioned on the TV or by giggly highschoolers, and making the leap that your big, macho, stoic father has been faking straight since before you were born, you know?
I don't think that there is evidence one way or the other as to Alma's intellectual abilities or her chioice of reading materials . Just because someone is not quoting Proust or making up cute Haiku verse on screen, that doesn't make them a dummy. She was a reticent young woman who would soon be finding her own way in life. She wanted her Daddy, whom she loved, to be at her wedding. She related to him in a way that convinced him to quit his job cowboying in the Tetons and attend her wedding. I'd say she was a very skillful young lady, even Jack couldn't always get Ennis to quit his job in order to see him!
Souxi, Ennis was hurting too!
Alma senior could have continued her marriage, but ended it viciously!! She ended it, not her husband!
Ennis would have kept on with the marriage, even after Jack's return! He was the decent one!
Besides Alma Senior was already playing the field even if she was married!! ??
A real lady married to a gay guy, finding out that he is a bi or gay man, does not become to act at all the way she did! Alma Senior is vicious, and she is seen that way too in the movie at that Thanksgiving!
Souxi, Ennis was hurting too!
Alma senior could have continued her marriage, but ended it viciously!! She ended it, not her husband!
Ennis would have kept on with the marriage, even after Jack's return! He was the decent one!
Besides Alma Senior was already playing the field even if she was married!! ??
A real lady married to a gay guy, finding out that he is a bi or gay man, does not become to act at all the way she did! Alma Senior is vicious, and she is seen that way too in the movie at that Thanksgiving!
However, Alma Jr. was kind to her father, even if she knew that he was a bi or gay man! Alma Jr. was not vicious, but could have been like her mother!! Alma Jr. is not anti-gay like her mother is!
Things to think about...
hugs!
OMG !!!!........OMG!!!!........I am practically speeechless,to think that anyone would have this opinion of Alma.....I'm starting to wonder whether we saw the same movie or read the same story
BBM is a tragedy, and not just for Ennis and Jack. Ang wanted us to see how the chains of keeping people from being themselves creates pain and misery not just for those directly affected, but for everyone around them - and that includes their wives and children.
BBM is a tragedy, and not just for Ennis and Jack. Ang wanted us to see how the chains of keeping people from being themselves creates pain and misery not just for those directly affected, but for everyone around them - and that includes their wives and children.
Thanks to all of you! Since you have been many replying to my last reply, I am happy about your replies!!
All of you sure awake me with your may details!! I learn this way! And many others will too! We all educate ourselves this way! This subject puzzled me a great deal, and still does. At least, some answers were given which I accept!
Now, let us turn the story, a bit. What if Ennis was the STAY AT HOME SPOUSE?? Yes, him only the houseperson? Give me details? They would be the same?
(TOO: Then, Alma Jr. would have know EARLIER that her father was a bi or gay man??)
Hugs!
But may I wonder if his wife wanted him to be the primary breadwinner? May I ask?
So yes it would have happened then and would be now too that Ennis would have been an houseperson!!
May I say, yes!
...
That is one more reason for me to say that Alma Jr. knew that her father was bi or gay!! May I guess!! ??
Sure, she did. She expected that he'd be the primary breadwinner and she'd be the primary house-person. Every time you see her in the film she's doing laundry or knitting, and in the one scene when Ennis comes home to find the postcard, she's cooking with Alma Junior right beside her, also in an apron at a little stove. (Basically instructing her little girl in the art of being a housewife.) Alma has no problem with the traditional setup at all.
If you remember the first scene in bed with her + Ennis, she wants to move to an apartment in town so Alma Junior will have playmates and Jenny (with her asthma spells) will be closer to medical services. The next thing you see, they're living there, and Alma is working. So evidently, that's the compromise she + Ennis came to: they're in a slightly more expensive place like she wanted, and she is earning a little extra money so they can afford it.
I don't think so. It doesn't really make sense. Ennis would always want to work outside in the field.
And if Brokeback Mountain showed us anything, it's that gay men can be quite traditionally masculine! Being a houseperson doesn't make one more likely to be gay.
I think that if Ennis would have been let by his wife to be a houseperson, then Alma Jr. would have known earlier that her father was bi or a gay man!! ?? Would you think about that??
Hugs! Hugs!
Alma Jr. in the movie saw her father being hugged by Jack! Intensely!
So, she knew that her father is an bi or gay man!
What do you think?
Hugs!
Alma Jr. in the movie saw her father being hugged by Jack! Intensely!
So, she knew that her father is an bi or gay man!
What do you think?
Hugs!
I wouldn,t say that Alma senior was vicious. You have to remember that she loved Ennis, and as if that wasn,t bad enough that he loved someone else and not her, what made it doubly worse for her, was that it was a man. That had to hurt.
IMO she was not the most attractive character in the Thanksgiving scene -- she seemed to deliberately goad her ex-husband into a confrontation on a family holiday with her daughters in the next room.
But oddly enough, this made her a more likable character overall. It kept her from becoming the proverbial Suffering Victim.
she seemed to deliberately goad her ex-husband into a confrontation on a family holiday with her daughters in the next room.
It's when Ennis says "once burned". The flow of Alma's activities in the kitchen stops, her face freezes, and her demeanor changes. That was the final straw.
I don't know. Alma makes the 'married again' comment in a relaxed and offhand way, in a languid, almost sleepy voice (full of milk and turkey). It's after his "once burned" reply that she visibly bristles.
He'd cheated on her for years with someone he's met before they were even married (making his marriage to her a sham), sodomized her when she didn't want it, yelled at her out on the street, and indicated ("I'll be happy to leave you alone") complete lack of interest in her sexual and emotional satisfaction. And after all that, he's blaming her for the failure of the marriage?
I think anybody would let him have it after that, and be justified in doing so.
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I can see "once burned" as meaning he was burned by the experience of a failed marriage, not by Alma's faults. True, even so it's not the most polite comment ever.
On the other hand, "You ought to get married" is not a remark anyone really wants to hear either, gay or straight, single or divorced. Who likes having people pressure you about that, whatever your reasons for being single? (A similar one, if you already are married, is, "You ought to have children.") And particularly not Ennis, who has a very specific reason for being unmarried, and one he wants to keep hidden. So Alma's initial question is a bit pushy itself.
I always see a direct line of causality between this conversation and his relationship with Cassie.
To me, the "once burned" comment said at that time implicitly blamed Alma for their marriage. So, she explodes with the only thing she's got, that she somehow held in for many years. As long as she was dependent on him, she never confronted him with the kiss, or the creel case.
Intrusive, pushy, maybe. But, she adds something like, "Me and the girls worry about you being alone so much." (I don't see that as annoying; I mean, he accepted the Thanksgiving invitation.)
(I think we could give any book/collection of essays on this story/film a good run for its money).
My own feeling on Junior is that she probably suspected that her father was gay or bisexual, at least by the time of her scene with Cassie. The cryptic "Maybe he's not the marrying kind" remark and her added "You're good enough" response suggest that she feels that Cassie is probably barking up the wrong tree where her dad is concerned. What I get from that latter comment is the sense that Junior does see Cassie as good enough for any man to want--but she can't trust her dad to really do so, because of what she senses as his true nature. I don't necessarily think that Junior had these perceptions/feelings fully articulated in her mind, but I do suspect they were there, however nebulous their form might have been and may even have remained.
I have to agree with you, Laura, about the "once burned": it comes off as a real insult, and her barely contained anger lets loose. I'd probably let him have it, too.
Here's the line from the story:
"Once burned," he said, leaning against the counter, feeling too big for the room.
Ennis could have said something a lot more civil.
I dunno, Scott. Seems to me this doesn't give the comment enough credit for being a put-down, which is how I think Cassie sees it (and how I see it--that Cassie may be "good enough" but she's nothing special, or no better than she should be), but in her basic good-natured way Cassie doesn't allow the insult to upset her.
I think Alma was genuine in her caring for Ennis, and her comment about "me and the girls worry about you", was a gesture of that.
Then he let go with the "once burned" comment, which was like putting condemnation and blame on her.....and that was, I think, the straw that broke the camels back with Alma, as far as taking any of the blame for the marriage not working.She probably thought....."ok, enoughs enough, Im gonna let him know who and what did cause our marriage to disintegrate"......
Up until the time she spat out the "Jack Nasty" words, Ennis did not have any idea that Alma had had any suspicions about Jack, he thought he had got away with all of it, without her knowing anything, and he knew that everything she was saying to him was true. She was not only letting him know that she was aware that his "fishing trips" were a lie, she was telling him that she knew that Jack was more than just a fishing buddy to him.
The fact that she had held all that in for so long, is testement to her good nature....and also, I think she would have been afraid to confront him with it, while they were still married, because of his temper....the time had come, he lit the fuse with the "once burned" comment, and she exploded with the "Jack Nasty" one.........
This is off subject......but Southendmd......I do love your signature clips...........watch them over and over again......
Even the final scene is diminished in its power if Alma Jr. is thought to be clueless. IMO
If we return to the original story, it is interesting to speculate on how Ennis would have fared staying with his married daughter (not specifically named, but very likely Junior) and son-in-law after his eviction from the ranch. Specifically, I'm wondering how he would have handled the transfer of the shirts-and-postcard shrine to his temporary new domicile (though I seem to recall his trailer going with him, he would not necessarily be staying in it while relying on his child's hospitality). The shrine in the story hangs upon the trailer wall, and anyone who investigated it would probably have some curiosity about how it came to be there and what it meant. Any encounter with the shrine on Junior's part would have had to bolster any speculations she might have had concerning her father's private life.
If we return to the original story, it is interesting to speculate on how Ennis would have fared staying with his married daughter (not specifically named, but very likely Junior) and son-in-law after his eviction from the ranch. Specifically, I'm wondering how he would have handled the transfer of the shirts-and-postcard shrine to his temporary new domicile (though I seem to recall his trailer going with him, he would not necessarily be staying in it while relying on his child's hospitality). The shrine in the story hangs upon the trailer wall, and anyone who investigated it would probably have some curiosity about how it came to be there and what it meant. Any encounter with the shrine on Junior's part would have had to bolster any speculations she might have had concerning her father's private life.
As for the shrine, does this assume she knows why her father has two old shirts on a hanger on a nail, or that in fact they aren't both his shirts, just two old shirts? What if she doesn't know this? What if she just thinks that, inexplicably, her father left these two ratty old dirty shirts hanging on a hanger?
I have to disagree. Do you remember at the final lake scene when Jack asks, "All this time, you ain't found no one else to marry?" He's basically doing the same thing Alma is: checking out where Ennis' heart is at . . . how he's doing.
Around when my father died & we were all dealing with it, my brother-in-law would ask, "how's your head and your heart?" Basically the same question. Very direct, and also too touchy-feely for the period (and especially to someone like Ennis). Jack and Alma's question to Ennis is basically another way of asking that. (It's obviously not literal; they of all people would be the most shocked if Ennis were to remarry.)
It's when Ennis says "once burned". The flow of Alma's activities in the kitchen stops, her face freezes, and her demeanor changes. That was the final straw.
I think it's reasonable to suspect that she would have noticed the "shrine" in such a small space with few objects to distract attention. It would really be very easy for her to stumble across the shirts and postcard (when you think about it). And, given that Junior at least seems to be observant (we're shown Alma *watching* a lot in the film... in various circumstances) it seems likely that she would find the "shrine" significant... perhaps odd... and perhaps meaningful. But, again, it's hard to imagine that she would be able to put all of the pieces of the puzzle together to understand the specific details of Ennis's situation. I would think, though, that the "shrine" would be one more element to add to the "hunch" that I think Junior has about her father.
Sorry, can't buy that. The closeup of her at the dinner table suggests that she resents the hell out of his being there to begin with, which is understandable. But IMO it's much more likely that she's recalling a conversation with her daughters, and she knows damn well that a question about remarrying is going to throw him off-balance. I didn't read concern for head and heart into her actions, just manipulation and unresolved anger.
Yes, 'once burned' does make her angry. But on the other hand, she was married to this man for 12 years and presumably knew him for a year or two before that. And she doesn't know how inarticulate and clumsy with words he is? Hello?
She would still have a right to be angry about that remark but give me a break -- this is a classic fight between a divorced couple with unresolved issues, and neither of them give a damn, at least for the moment, about the people in the next room. There isn't any 'victim' in this scene.
Thanks brokeplex!She may have even heard the exact conversation, word-for-word. For any other listener, it might not arouse suspicion. But Alma Jr. is consistently portrayed as someone who would take note. About her father, she is shown to be concerned, quietly observant, and understanding. Watching Ennis and Jack that day, I believe she began to wonder about their relationship.
She must have seen that the hug then between the two was firm, especially by Jack!! ?? Plus, how sad they (Jack and Ennis) became after her father talked to Jack!! ??
Plus, she must have heard the conversation by the two: Ennis and Jack!! Their tones of speech??
I'm not sure about how much she perceived of her father's feelings for Jack. We really didn't see enough of her to really know.
Brokeplex, you think that maybe Jr. is bi??
Hugs, hugs!!
Indeed, I am thinking that she is maybe bi, even!! At least, a decent straight person, respecting her father and Jack as bi or gay men!!
I would go with your other choice: "a decent straight person".
There are a lot of them out there, Artiste!
And you make me smile and laugh too Artiste, just stay away from diving into the the shallow end of the swimming pool !
You two make me laugh, with a happy smile!!
Artiste, please keep in mind that roughly half of the members of BetterMost are straight. And most if not all consider themselves decent without that requiring further clarification. So please be tactful in these references.I do think straight people who are understanding and sympathetic to gays are in the minority, at present. Homophobia is commonplace worldwide, and outside the post-industrialized West often takes virulent, violent form (and continues to do so even in the West, though becoming rarer and now actively decried as barbaric).
Laura and Katie, I don't want to speak for Artiste, but perhaps he is referring to the fact that, in Ennis and Alma Jr.'s time and place, straight people who are understanding of and sympathetic to gays actually may BE in the minority.
I disagree.
When I try to look at the screenwriters’ choices, it reinforces my belief that Junior knew.
I often wonder about the storytellers’ motivations for choosing this-or-that dialogue. Is it a part of the plot, or is it character development, or is it a red herring, or is it simply a mistake; an extraneous bit that never managed to get edited out but in the end contributes nothing.
In this film, nearly every detail seems to contribute something of value.
And what would be the value of Junior being jealous of Cassie?
It isn’t important to the story.
She *is* jealous, of course, but that’s not a valuable piece of the plot here; she’s portrayed as such simply because it’s fitting—she’s not getting private time with her father.
But to me the point of the scene is to show her connection to him. She observes him quietly. She's concerned, and she's wondering. She strongly suspects the truth about him, even though he's not the 'type' at all.
That scene is Ang's idea of a happy ending for Ennis. In the short story, his children are such nonentities they are only mentioned in passing, not actually part of the story, so there is not even a hint that Ennis' kids have a clue. So I tend to think of the ending scene as more about Ennis' growth than any realization by Junior.
Ineedcrayons, you say this: Artiste, please keep in mind that roughly half of the members of BetterMost are straight. And most if not all consider themselves decent without that requiring further clarification. So please be tactful in these references.
Laura and Katie, I don't want to speak for Artiste, but perhaps he is referring to the fact that, in Ennis and Alma Jr.'s time and place, straight people who are understanding of and sympathetic to gays actually may BE in the minority.
...
May I reply that I never did qualify in numbers, or if one is straight or gay or otherwise who is decent!! Even if half or more, if not less, are straights on Bettermost, why limit freedon of speech??
Freedom of speech is almost never limited on BetterMost. My point was simply that if half of BetterMostians are straight, and you imply that decent straight people are unusual, many of the people you are writing to are likely to take offense. It's a matter of courtesy, not censorship. If that was not your meaning, then fine.I take your point, Katherine, but I think we can assume that BetterMostians are hardly representative of the culture at large, and straight BetterMostians can hardly be taken as examples of the majority of straight people, whether in America or worldwide.
The ending is more about Ennis anyway than Junior, IMO. She doesn't have to have some sort of epiphany about her father to make the scene work. She can be just a simple girl happy that her daddy understands her love and is finally making time for her, no matter what.
I take your point, Katherine, but I think we can assume that BetterMostians are hardly representative of the culture at large, and straight BetterMostians can hardly be taken as examples of the majority of straight people, whether in America or worldwide.
But then I also come to this question from a life experience of having had a friend, now dead five years from metastatic lung cancer, who had a daughter who had a very difficult time accepting that her father was gay.
Alma Jr though? Although I have a hard time believing she knew her dad was gay until after the timeline of the film, I do think she would be okay with it.
.she loved her Daddy, of course she did, but the visit to his trailer was more about would he come to her wedding, than to come for just a father daughter visit...by his lack of knowledge about Kurt, it was obvious that these visits were not too regular.
And if she knew or thought he was gay, she would have kept it a secret...she would have maybe even felt embarrassed about it....cant blame her for that.....Ennis did the same thing and he too was in some ways embarrassed about it.
Kids of 19 dont do a lot of soul searching about their parents, not to say they dont worry about them, they get involved in their own lives and their own friends...Alma Jnr was probably no different..
Katie, you say: And if she knew or thought he was gay, she would have kept it a secret...she would have maybe even felt embarrassed about it....
if she knew that her father was bi or gay, would have kept it a secret, likely??
It is a question one can pose if she did mention it to anyone, maybe?
But why she would have felt embarassed? Please explain!
You really think that a kid of 19, does not soul search about their parents? Some do, I say! Especially, in the situation she is in, as her father was divorsed, may I say!
Awaiting your news and from others,
hugs!
Thanks delalluvia!
I just read your replies. Glad that you do. They sound good. I will reread.
For now, you say:I don't put Junior up there with being very introspective. I know others don't feel this way, but I consider Junior to be just a simple, small town, not very deep, very average blue-collar girl.
............
I prefer to think that Jr. is indeed introspective, to which degree I do not know, in the movie... as she seems to be so to me. Does she not seem to talk about her father trying to help or especially understand the girl that her dad danced with at the bar... that one that wanted to marry divorced Ennis?? !! I forgot her name of the one who insisted to dance with Ennis; one who worked as an bar waitress, was it?? That is only one example where she helps other persons!
Awaiting your news and help on this,
hugs!!
To answer you underdown, it is hard for straight males, yes; harder than gay males?
Straight do not have always the fear of getting killed because they are straights??
Will always be happy to get your news,
hugs!
Ineedcrayons, you do not take away this (below and other lines from others) why, even if it is not the subject, but you take my words away often? Why you think for me? You even put words like they are mine, but are not!
Why accept this then: I'm afraid I tend to see the idea that Junior knew her father was gay, and even more was OK with it, as wishful thinking. But then I also come to this question from a life experience of having had a friend, now dead five years from metastatic lung cancer, who had a daughter who had a very difficult time accepting that her father was gay. And she didn't have to figure it out for herself, she was told (perhaps at an age too young to understand, but nevertheless she was told). And this wasn't small town Wyoming thirty years ago, this was the East Coast in the 1990s. They weren't reconciled until near the end of my friend's life. Thankfully, he and his daughter did have a good relationship for the last few years of his life.
...
I see nothing against his words, as I use them as an example... as I do the same as he does. If he can add something like that, then why I can not? Because I am a gay man?
You bewilder me! There is nothing like truth, I say! To those who take offence, that is their problem, and should have the decentcy to tell me about it! I am decent enough to accept their words when I find them offensive! Most times or all times, it is just not understading! You taking me away my freedom of speech to me, is like being anti-gay to me!
I await your answer with open arms so far,
hugs!!
True, it has digressed somewhat. It is obviously stirring a lot of deep emotions.
Isn't that what Bettermost is all about? Isn't the motto 'a catalyst for positive change'?
In my book, a catalyst is supposed to cause a reaction, and this topic cetainly has. If the discussion had been confined strictly to the subject, it would not achieve half as much. But there have been comments and questions moved, or deleted. (?)
Now, I am a straight male. One of the few on Bettermost. I do not discriminate against gay or bi people, nor against those for whom this topic raises deep emotions. Nor am I offended in any way. Emotions are healthy: including yours, mine, and those of anyone else who posts in response to these discussion threads.
To Artiste, this thread and the discussion of whether or not Alma Jnr was embarrassed by her Dad's homosexulality may raise the question 'why should anyone be embarrassed by someone because they are gay?' And that becomes emotional. So what? That is a valid question by a thinking person, and a natural result of the thread being a catalyst. As it should be, unless the Bettermost motto is meaningless. Why on earth that should be 'off topic' is beyond me. There were comments directed to an individual member that were deleted, but I am sure they were directed at an emotion being expressed, not to the character.
As has been suggested earlier, Alma Jnr was in a time and place where being open about her Dad's homosexulality, if she really understood it properly anyway, was dynamite. Why is it not ok to try to apply that catalyst of thought to Quebec, in the present, or anywhere else in the world, to pose a question ?
I could take offence that people make assumptions simply because I am straight and therefore obviously 'just like all the rest of them', but don't, because I know it is usually the bigots and people who just want to be noticed who criticise the most, and the genuinely loving who are belted with tyre irons by those people who blindly follow the carping and criticising loudmouths.
I don't know any gay men with 19 year-old daughters. It must be difficult for them to know how they think towards their Dad, although sisters are something of an insight.
I have two daughters who were 19 not so long ago, (twins) one of whom accepts me totally as I am; a straight male who loves and likes and feels, sometimes loves the wrong people, and makes mistakes. The other is critical because I am single again, thinks I embarrass her, and therefore must prefer people outside of her family.
Do you think, Artiste, it could sometimes be just as hard being a straight male?
I'm sorry, but anyone who implies that ineedcrayons is unfairly targeting someone because he is a gay man is way ... off ... base.
J.W.
Straight do not have always the fear of getting killed because they are straights??
Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
Katherine makes a very valid point about straight women being in danger.
Likely not in the book, as you say. But why this accent in the movie via Jr.?
Just to clarify, my comments about the threat of hate crimes to women also apply, of course, to gay women.
In this country (Australia) the majority of crimes of physical attack against another person seem to be those committed by men against their wives or defacto partners (with alcohol as a major factor).
Most of this is not reported to police, but is well known by community services authorities, doctors, friends and (thus) media. There are also increasing numbers of cases reported of the abuse of children, quite often committed by a defacto male against his partner's child, but sometimes by both parents.
I think that community attitudes are changing with better communication, as people become less ignorant of gay matters, and more informed about male/female abuse. Ignorance of gay matters led to unfounded fear, or homophobia. Now there is a fear of straight men, generated by the reported actions of the abusive. I don't think any 19 year old would consider gay men at high risk here and now, compared to women in a bad marriage or defacto relationship. Years ago, they might have.
Through most of his life, his children were a financial burden; but in the end, they were his emotional salvation. Ennis would indeed be "nothin, nowhere" — rotting alone in his trailer — if it weren't for the new generation he created who loved him.Thank you for this beautifully written explication, Laura.
The concern over remarriage could suggest a perception on Alma's part that Ennis might be straight, were it not for the fishing trips with "Jack Nasty"--the implication here could be that Alma might see Jack as the one steering Ennis onto a "deviant" path, but that he himself is not intrinsically "deviant".
Please excuse this being off topic.
In this country (Australia) the majority of crimes of physical attack against another person seem to be those committed by men against their wives or defacto partners (with alcohol as a major factor).
Most of this is not reported to police, but is well known by community services authorities, doctors, friends and (thus) media. There are also increasing numbers of cases reported of the abuse of children, quite often committed by a defacto male against his partner's child, but sometimes by both parents.
I think that community attitudes are changing with better communication, as people become less ignorant of gay matters, and more informed about male/female abuse. Ignorance of gay matters led to unfounded fear, or homophobia. Now there is a fear of straight men, generated by the reported actions of the abusive. I don't think any 19 year old would consider gay men at high risk here and now, compared to women in a bad marriage or defacto relationship. Years ago, they might have.
Rob
I think that you have raised an important issue here. I can't comment on Australia other than to say I would love to visit the country. But I will comment on the increasingly popular trend in the US to characterize all men as aggressors and therefore dangerous.It appears to me that the wrongful actions of a few have lead to perceptions that are unfair and in the long run dangerous.
You are right that Bettermost must continue to give us freedom of expression... if I read you right. I feel that it does, most of the time and at other moments, I know that I am helped and that I helped too others. May that continue... always!!
We have found ways to help each other and others. And my wish is to discover other wondrous methoeds too!!
I am sure that Bettermost also saves lives! Plus it makes us all happier somehow!!
It doesn't have to be so black and white. She most certainly can invite him, most of us invite people to special events we know have no chance of showing up, for whatever reason:That would be a bummer of an ending... it wouldn't work. We need to see that Ennis is changing.
"Daddy I'm getting married. Can you come give me away?"
"Oh honey, I gotta drive down in the Tetons."
"OK, well, when you're back why don't you come by and see our new place and the pictures of the wedding?"
That would seem to be more of a realistic dialogue and a compromise both would find acceptable given each other's circumstances.
I'm way late, but want to weigh in about Ennis missing work to attend Junior's wedding.
That would be a bummer of an ending... it wouldn't work. We need to see that Ennis is changing.
And for what it's worth, I *don't* think he quit a job to go to the wedding.
He opted out of a weekend of work, is how I saw it, based on what I've seen of roundups and cattle drives.
Where I lived, the cattle were rounded up twice a year, and each cattle drive was a one-shot thing, for that weekend only. They were herded up to the mountains as weather was warming up. Then they were driven downvalley end of summer. It was only about forty miles, if that. Cowboys were hired on a prn basis (or whatever that is called, in the ranching industry). Some worked on ranches full-time, but others were cowboys only those two weekends per year. If they could work that weekend, fine. If not, fine. They would likely be offered work the next time. either way. Or offered work the next weekend, in a different valley.
I believe the script was written to suggest this type of roundup, alluding to it being just a weekend drive.
Phillip and others: May I reply that we have that before and at fiest it worked on other threads!! But then we became limited by other threads and by some moderators!! Unfortunately!! And when I have hard subjects, I noticed that no one even dared to answer, because most persons are unfortunately afraid, yes like the ones on the BM movie.
If oyou, moderators and others on Bettermost, have noted, we like a bit of off-subjects, since we try to relate that the movie somehow, fortunately!! That should remain the ONLY way to do so, for now. We feel free this way! Why kill a happy bird who was unhappy, may I suggest?? !!
Hugs! I awainting replies of yours an that of others!! Why kill Bettermost, when we are now happy using it and we all learn this way wondrous ways?? The BM movie and story, touches many things, you all know that, right?? Issues are important to us, and need to be writtien, detailed and to each his own to become happy, even gay, and help others too!! Why do you use the word tolorence? We want freedom, not anti-gay words nor anti-women words, bnor anti-children words... right?? Computor isjumping... so I am posting without coreecting...
Why don't we put this up for a vote so we know what thread participants think. Should discussions in these TOTW threads be limited to the subject of the thread or should they be allowed to become more broad-themed and conversational.
I'll have one of the mods create a poll and make it its own thread, so we can discuss this issue there and let this topic get back... on topic.