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:) Hey friends! I've been thinking it might be nice to have a Bible study group.
For better and for worse, the Bible has a lot of influence on our culture and our lives. We've seen a lot of biblical themes and archetypes in Brokeback, like the Good Shepherd, sacrifice, and maybe atonement and redemption.
Some people use the Bible to justify prejudice, but it also has important messages about love and acceptance.
Maybe reading and talking about it together can help us understand what it really means.
It's a big book, so what if we start with the Gospel of Mark? It's the shortest of the Gospels, only 20 pages in my copy of the Revised Standard Version.
If we read and talk about a chapter or two a day we could have a whole Gospel under our belts in a couple of weeks. Anybody who likes can catch up or join in as we go.
So how about Mark Chapter 1 for the next 24 hours. Anybody interested? Get a cup of coffee, pull up one of those folding chairs into the circle and let's talk! :D
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Here's the entire text of Mark online:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/mark-asv.html (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/mark-asv.html)
There's a lot of interesting background information on the Gospel of Mark at this site:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mark.html (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mark.html)
And Wikipedia is always great:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark)
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Hi WDJ -- I'll talk. Wasn't John the Baptizer Jesus's cousin? ;D
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I was always taught that John was the forerunner, a herald if you will, of Jesus. Mark starts with John baptizing people, but telling them about Jesus.
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Hey Shas! Yep, I think you're right. This version doesn't mention that does it ...
You know, I've always wondered what was the origin of the tradition of baptism ... should look that up! Were the Jews routinely baptizing before John the Baptist? Or was this his own idea ???
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now where is my Bible....is there gonna be donuts??
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Well, these sites say baptism originated before John, but the reasons are different.
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20031106.htm (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20031106.htm)
http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2431 (http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2431)
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;D You bet - help yourself! I like the chocolate ones ...
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:rUKv2ACgRl9FZM:http://washtenawdairy.com/db4/00376/washtenawdairy.com/_uimages/Donuts.jpg)
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This first chapter seems to cover a lot!
Several healing miracles, and John the Baptist has already been taken by the authorities ... :-\
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now where is my Bible....is there gonna be donuts??
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x221/Shasta542/BIBLE.jpg)(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x221/Shasta542/DONUT.jpg)
There ya go, Jess. ;)
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Well, these sites say baptism originated before John, but the reasons are different.
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20031106.htm (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20031106.htm)
http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2431 (http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2431)
Thanks! I'l check those out - had been wondering ...
I gotta run for now - catch y'all a little later - looking forward to talking with you ! spread the word if you like!
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and he is talking about 'casting out demons'. The original exorcisms??
How old was John compared to Jesus? Do you know, Wayne?
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Yeah. And Jesus gets so popular that he can't even go into town without being mobbed. Kinda like the paps today!
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I think that John was 6 months older than Jesus.
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oh great, he starts it and then runs off! LOL!
well, gives me time to read these links!!
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Yeah. And Jesus gets so popular that he can't even go into town without being mobbed. Kinda like the paps today!
Did John know Jesus before he met him on the river??
We also see the gathering of the apostles...(lort, I am rusty....see what happens when you go to church and daydream through the service??)
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Luke 1: 35-36 on their ages.
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Luke 1: 35-36 on their ages.
now there is someone was paying attention!
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I was just reading in the link Wayne left us...can we discuss who wrote this gospel? Shasta, do you have a theory? what were you taught? I was taught that MARK wrote it...but according to this link??..
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Yes. I was taught that Mark wrote the gospel of Mark. What did you read?
http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Mark.htm (http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Mark.htm)
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Hi WDJ -- I'll talk. Wasn't John the Baptizer Jesus's cousin? ;D
I think you have to go to Luke to get that answer. The King James Version calls Elizabeth, John's mother, a "cousin" of Mary. Newer translations in my library just say "kinswoman" or even just "relative."
I guess they were probably some sort of cousins, but not first cousins.
Coffee and doughnuts: the "other" Protestant Sacrament! :D
I heard a joke once. You know you're Lutheran if you forget to bring the wine for Communion but not the coffee for Social Hour! :laugh: (I can tell that joke 'cause I was raised Lutheran. :) )
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who wrote this gospel?
Yeah it has traditionally been ascribed to Mark, who was a disciple of Peter.
The idea is that Peter told Mark (and others) all these things and Mark wrote them all down and tried to put them in order.
But it's not certain that Mark actually wrote the text; for one thing there are apparently some errors in the geography that Mark, as a resident of the area, would not have made.
I could imagine there may have been an oral tradition handed down for a while before it actually got written down. Mark is said to be the first of the gospels to actually be put in writing, and may have been a source for Matthew and Luke.
Mark -> (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Fra_Angelico_032.jpg/180px-Fra_Angelico_032.jpg)
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Remember too that in the Catholic tradition, Peter was the first Pope.
It's interesting that Peter was married! ;) We see in Mark 1 that one of the miraculous healings that Jesus performed was for Simon's mother-in-law - that Simon later became St. Peter.
Goodness - Wikipedia has entire entries on each chapter of Mark ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_1)
The alleged ruins of St. Peter's home in Capernaum...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Kapernaum_Domus_Petri.jpg)
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Yeah it has traditionally been ascribed to Mark, who was a disciple of Peter.
The idea is that Peter told Mark (and others) all these things and Mark wrote them all down and tried to put them in order.
But it's not certain that Mark actually wrote the text; for one thing there are apparently some errors in the geography that Mark, as a resident of the area, would not have made.
I could imagine there may have been an oral tradition handed down for a while before it actually got written down. Mark is said to be the first of the gospels to actually be put in writing, and may have been a source for Matthew and Luke.
Mark -> (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Fra_Angelico_032.jpg/180px-Fra_Angelico_032.jpg)
I would imagine that there were a LOT of oral stories...most people back in that time didn't read or write. Most storytelling was done by people that memorized from other people. The Bible wasn't put together til a couple of centurys after all these people died. I can overlook minor details..I have never been one of those ultra 'literalists'
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I'm impressed with how much this first chapter focuses on healing. First there are 2 specific occasions including one psychological and one physical condition:
1:23-26 he casts out an unclean spirit from the man in the synagogue
1:30-31 Simon's wife's mother has a fever and is healed
Then two general descriptions:
1:34 he healed many that were sick with divers diseases, and cast out many demons;
1:39 And he went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out demons.
And then a striking physical healing:
1:40-42 And straightway the leprosy departed from him, and he was made clean
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So what I am getting is that Isaiah had prophecied that someone living in the wilderness would come before the lord/messiah and John apparently fit the bill. He preached that he was the one who would come before but not until Jesus emerged from the water when he baptised him did it become apparent who he was.
Wonder what sins Jesus confessed to?
In 1:17 it has my favoirte line in the whole Bible: "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men" which he said to two brothers in Gallilee, Simon and Andrew.
So then he went down to Capernum and in the synagogue drew out the unclean spirit from that man, Was that the first miricle he did?
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I wonder about these deamons. I immediatly think of some sort of supernatural possession, but maybe they could have been something as simple as someone over taken with grief, who needed to hear the right words to bring them comfort?
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1:14 ... Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 1:15and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel
I like to think he was saying the kingdom of God is here now. Don't just sit around waiting for God to come down and fix everything. Use your common sense now and do what is right to make things the way they should be.
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1:14 ... Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 1:15and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel
I like to think he was saying the kingdom of God is here now. Don't just sit around waiting for God to come down and fix everything. Use your common sense now and do what is right to make things the way they should be.
Well you know that makes more sense than saying "its coming! its coming!" forever and it never getting here. The bible is a good example of theying to communicate ideas, across time.
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supernatural possession, but maybe they could have been something as simple as someone over taken with grief, who needed to hear the right words to bring them comfort?
right, yeah ... I can't really picture that this "demon possession" that seems to have been so common at the time is something we would have no knowledge of whatsoever any more.
I guess, unless Jesus cast demons out so utterly from the world that it just doesn't happen any more? :-\ But that's not really my impression.
I suspect sometimes they were referring to what we would now call mental illnesses, and other cases as you say could be grief, depression ... maybe epilepsy?
The "unclean spirit" of the man in the synagogue - I wonder if that was Tourette's syndrome? :-\
(hope you had fun at the parade! ;) )
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I did have fun, you'll have to check out the video I posted of my partners in crime.
I remember my granny would experence miricles sometimes, having her knees healed, and she would walk just fine out of that tent revival but the next day she could not get out of bed. Mind over matter.
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I wonder if maybe it WAS mental illness, Wayne. So many people with mental illness use the term to describe what it feels like..
I know sometimes when I come out of a bout or intense episode I feel it was as if there was a presence or shadow on me...I can see in ancient times people thinking it was a 'demon'
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I am fond of classifying infatuation a demon.
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"its coming! its coming!" forever and it never getting here.
Yeah for me the concepts of "at hand" and "the time is fulfilled" would really not allow for a delay of 2000 years or more.
If by "time is fulfilled" he meant that long a wait, then I would have little hope of understanding anything else he might say. ???
I'm willing to keep the possibilities open if something else becomes evident, but for me, for now, it sounds like he meant that the change was already there.
Sort of a first century age of Aquarius ... :D
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she would walk just fine out of that tent revival but the next day she could not get out of bed.
:-\ Yeah, we don't have long-term followup information on these healings, so we should probably be aware of that ...
gotta run for now ... chapter 2 tonight? :)
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I can try.
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:D Hey all! Sorry a little late this evenin what with dinner and homework ...
OK so Mark chapter 2. Here's the Cliff notes from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_2
Actually the inverse Cliff notes - the Wikipedia entry is several times longer than the chapter.
Basically Jesus goes back home to Capernaum on the north end of the Sea of Galilee, and everybody wants to get healed!
He heals a paralyzed man - "rise, get up and walk"
He brings on a tax collector as a disciple. The name Levi is given - this may be the same person as Matthew but that's not for certain. I have the impression that tax collectors were viewed as a sort of collaborator with the oppression of Rome. So it was pretty edgy for Jesus to be bringing them into the fold.
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The analogies about new cloth and new wine may have some twists to them ...
New cloth is probably better than old cloth.
But by contrast, old wine is better than new.
In the corresponding phrases in Luke (chapter 5:36-39) Jesus goes ahead to say that you're probably going to say "the old wine is better."
So he seems to be saying if for you the old way is like old wine, better than new, then that's fine, go with that.
But for some people, the new way is like new cloth, better than old, so that's what he's working on.
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He states that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. This may sound blase' to some modern readers but might not have been easy for everyone to agree with. Observing the Sabbath was pretty close to the core of the Jewish experience.
You know those Ten Commandments - if even those are subject to question, then things could get out of hand ... :-\
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I like how Jesus told that leper at the end of th elast chapter not to tell no body and bam, look what happened.
Now in 2:5 he is addressing the paralytic man and telling him his sins are forgiven, and it was the sins holding him back. He rose and took his pallet and left.
Was he sining by pretending to be paralyzed?
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:P Yeah the juxtaposition of sins and physical disability is unpleasant!
I wonder - might he be saying - Don't even worry about this stuff they have called sin, like feeding yourself on the Sabbath.
Oh and you can walk too! :D
I doubt many theologians would spring for that, but I wonder... ::)
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There is the style they wrote this down in, and what has been lost in translation over time.
Like in 2:13 he goes to Levi and says to follow him. Well you could make of that he had powerful pursuasion powers. Or you might wonder what all went on in that conversation. These verses are like zip files, each with a story inside we can only surmise.
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Now beigining in 2:18 it describes the followers of John (I am assuming the Baptist) and the Pharisees were fasting. So there was an organization of the followers of John. I wonder how that organizaton played into the followers of Jesus and the early church?
I like the example he gave of David taking the preiests bread to feed the hungry. It is a very good analogy.
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may I go back to something we mentioned in Chapter 1??
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So there was an organization of the followers of John. I wonder how that organizaton played into the followers of Jesus and the early church?
:o ooh I saw a really spooky bit about this once - lemme see if I can find it ...
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may I go back to something we mentioned in Chapter 1??
Please do.
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may I go back to something we mentioned in Chapter 1??
Please, you bet! Nothing formal here - we'll make it cumulative! ;D
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we were talking about Jesus saying the Kingdom was at hand....
in Matthew 5:17 he says "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, til the heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished."
what do you think this means?
I hear so many people talking about rituals...that we have to continue to obey the laws of the old testament but not the 'cultural' ones...like eating shellfish...which to me seems like they are just cherry picking what they want to oppress people..
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The "all is accomplished" part is what I wonder about. Wonder what that means?
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So there was an organization of the followers of John. I wonder how that organizaton played into the followers of Jesus and the early church?
Here ya go - Mandaeism ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism)
"Mandaeans consider John the Baptist to be God's most honorable messenger.They describe Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad as false Prophets."
Until the Iraq war there were about 70,000 Mandaeans in Iraq. Now there are about five thousand ...
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I don't know...is he fortelling his death on the cross? or is it something else?
see this is what is so frustrating...he needed to draw pictures!
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:) Barry Manilow's tribute to Mandaeism:
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUy4CrlEtvA[/youtube]
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see this is what is so frustrating...he needed to draw pictures!
It really would have helped if he had just written it down himself ... :-\
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in Matthew 5:17 he says "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, til the heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished."
what do you think this means?
Honestly I think there are so many different reasonable ways to understand just about everything ...
The gospel writers remark that he was very adept at avoiding being caught by the literalists. After all, they were out to kill him.
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Here ya go - Mandaeism ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism)
"Mandaeans consider John the Baptist to be God's most honorable messenger.They describe Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad as false Prophets."
Until the Iraq war there were about 70,000 Mandaeans in Iraq. Now there are about five thousand ...
Great day, never heard of them before, amazing.
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A scenario that seems very plausible to me is that Jesus was really annoyed with literalism, and had some great ideas about how to move beyond it.
But in the meantime he knew that he had to appease the literalists as long as they were in power.
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I remember from Sunday school at the age of 12 he was preaching in the temple, but could he read and write? I wonder.....
I am going to have to sign off now, turning into a pumpkin.
I have enjoyed this.
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Great day, never heard of them before, amazing.
Well if you like that, another of my favorites in Iraq is the Yazidi sect.
They are reviled as Satan-worshippers. And guess what? Their archangel is called ...
Shaytan ... ::) ::)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidi)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Melek_taus.jpg/180px-Melek_taus.jpg)
His name Melek-Taus is linguistically related to Molech. And that's the bad guy that Moses said you shouldn't offer your children to.
Melek-Taus is also linguistically related to the name of the Christian archangel Michael.
So it's all just a mishmash of misunderstandings of who is good and who is bad and who has power. :P
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:) Yeah I gotta run too. Hugs and talk with y'all tamarrah! :-* :-*
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;D Anybody up for chapter 3?
Jesus heals the man with the withered hand, but gets in trouble with the authorities because he does it on the Sabbath. Jesus seems to be at odds on this issue a good bit.
The text seems to be foreshadowing this conflict as part of the growing case against him. It says he is angry about the restriction from healing on the Sabbath.
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As always, Wikipedia has some interesting insights ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_3)
there is an intriguing footnote: "by the time Mark was writing in the late 60s, the Gentile churches outside of Israel were beginning to resent the authority wielded by Jerusalem where James and the apostles were leaders, thus providing the motive for Mark’s antifamily stance… (Butz, 2005, p. 44)."
So there were already disagreements as early as AD 60. ::) Sounds like we shouldn't feel too bad if we can't resolve all the details now. ;)
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The foreshadowing is very interesting to me, and the part about his conflict with healing on the Sabbath seems to conflict with the part from matthew that Jess brought up about all th elaws remaining in effect until they are finished.
Could Jesus have thought the laws did not apply to him as he saw himself as the son of God?
Could this be the begining of what he knew would be a wedge between the old and the new?
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:-X Just my opinion, but my impression at the moment is that he was ready to completely change the rules.
"not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law..." What does that mean? Something like - the law was here to prepare us for the next step?
"Your sins are forgiven..." "Sin" meant lots of things. According to Leviticus, most of those things are along the lines of not tithing your rosemary.
He could not speak explicitly what he wanted to say. The gospel writers frequently remind us that he could not, because he would get killed if he did. That's why he spoke in parables.
(Spoiler alert: actually he does wind up getting killed, but I don't want to ruin the ending for anybody! :o )
I suspect that if he could have spoken freely he would have said look, this is ridiculous. It's time for a change.
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I had never thought of that before, he did have to "spin" him message to get it out to people.
I have heard Brokeback described as a parable.
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:-X Just my opinion, but my impression at the moment is that he was ready to completely change the rules.
"not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law..." What does that mean? Something like - the law was here to prepare us for the next step?
"Your sins are forgiven..." "Sin" meant lots of things. According to Leviticus, most of those things are along the lines of not tithing your rosemary.
He could not speak explicitly what he wanted to say. The gospel writers frequently remind us that he could not, because he would get killed if he did. That's why he spoke in parables.
(Spoiler alert: actually he does wind up getting killed, but I don't want to ruin the ending for anybody! :o )
I suspect that if he could have spoken freely he would have said look, this is ridiculous. It's time for a change.
dang it Wayne!!
>:( >:( >:( >:(
now you have ruined the book for me!!
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dang it Wayne!!
>:( >:( >:( >:(
now you have ruined the book for me!!
;D ;D ;D
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dang it Wayne!!
>:( >:( >:( >:(
now you have ruined the book for me!!
:-\ Aww! Next time I'll put spoilers in white like this:
There's a surprise ending!! :o
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Well there are other books in which he didn;t die fronm what I hear. One has him going to France.
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Well there are other books in which he didn;t die fronm what I hear. One has him going to France.
Yeah, but I think that qualifies as fan fiction.
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My favorite is the Lazarus/Jesus slash! :-* :-*
But that will have to wait till we get to the book of John ;)
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So on to Mark chapter 4! So many people have come to hear Jesus speak that he has to go out on a boat while they listen from the shore.
He goes into parable mode. A sower sows some seeds, but for one reason or another, lots of seeds don't make it. But the ones that do yield a harvest of 30, 60, or 100 times what was sown.
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One passage doesn't sound as compassionate as I would like.
At least in some translations, Jesus seems to be pleased that some people can't understand what he's saying. ???
Funny, I just checked my Dad's King James and he had circled this verse, Mark 4:12. He didn't mark a lot of things - maybe it annoyed him too. :laugh:
-- 11 ... unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
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There's an interesting cross-reference in the New American Standard Version though...
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%204:12;&version=49; (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%204:12;&version=49;)
This passage is roughly a quotation from both Isaiah and Ezekiel. I suspect that Mark (or whoever the writer was) put this phrase in to show the parallel to the prophets' experience.
I don't think they had anything like quotation marks in the original Greek to indicate explicitly the words that Jesus said as opposed to Mark's annotations, so I'm willing to give Jesus the benefit of the doubt on this one.
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Also as we've noticed, Jesus had to watch what he said, so folding his message into parables was a way to deliver the message without explicitly saying anything the authorities could arrest him for.
verse 34: He did not speak to them without a parable; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.
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The coolness of Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_4)
This is the chapter where Jesus calms the storm...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Aivasovsky_Ivan_Constantinovich_the_9th_wave_IBI.JPG/300px-Aivasovsky_Ivan_Constantinovich_the_9th_wave_IBI.JPG)
The disciples are surprised at Jesus's superpowers: Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?
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ok, my interpretation of that verse? I think he was talking about hypocrites....people that came around and listened but didn't truly take in the message to heart...
or maybe I am completely off base....everything is so intertwined...I tend to be more literal in my reading. :-\
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curious though. In the entire book that is the only verse italiazed?
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I prefer Mark's version of the mustard seed story over another story that appears in Matthew and Luke (which get a lot more air time! >:( )
30-31 ... the kingdom of God ... is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the soil, though it is smaller than all the seeds that are upon the soil,
32 yet when it is sown, it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and forms large branches; so that the birds of the air can nest under its shade.
In the other mustard story in Matthew and Luke, the mustard seed is referred to merely as something that happens to be small.
Matthew 17:19-20: "if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you"
Luke 17:5-6 "If you had faith the size of a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it would obey you."
In the versions presented in Matthew and Luke, Jesus might as well have said "faith the size of a grain of sand."
But in Mark's version, Jesus was not referring to something with a small amount of faith. He was referring to something small that had a great amount of faith, and through that faith it performs great actions.
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everything is so intertwined
;D Evenin Miz Jess! absolutely! This is just my own thought at the moment. Yours is at least as valid as if not more so! ;) :-*
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I prefer Mark's version of the mustard seed story over Matthew and Luke's (which get a lot more air time! >:( )
30-31 ... the kingdom of God ... is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the soil, though it is smaller than all the seeds that are upon the soil,
32 yet when it is sown, it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and forms large branches; so that the birds of the air can nest under its shade.
In Matthew and Luke, the mustard seed is referred to merely as something that happens to be small.
Matthew 17:19-20: "if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you"
Luke 17:5-6 "If you had faith the size of a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it would obey you."
In the versions presented in Matthew and Luke, Jesus might as well have said "faith the size of a grain of sand."
But in Mark's version, Jesus was not referring to something with a small amount of faith. He was referring to something small that had a great amount of faith, and through that faith it performs great actions.
and that grows and grows. That if you give it a chance it can become something so much more.
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The use of the mustard plant though seems strange. I mean, it really doesn't get that big... ???
I'm probably being too literal with this one! :laugh:
An opposing perspective can be found at "Guru Jesus My Foot"
http://oaks.nvg.org/mustard-and-jesus.html (http://oaks.nvg.org/mustard-and-jesus.html)
(http://oaks.nvg.org/a/brassinig.jpg) (http://oaks.nvg.org/o/donangle.gif)
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maybe it was a mistranslation?
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Now about "faith" ... One definition of faith is "belief in the supernatural" :P http://dict.die.net/faith/ (http://dict.die.net/faith/)
So faith can refer to belief, but there's also
"Consistent with truth or actuality: a faithful reproduction of the portrait."
http://www.answers.com/topic/faithful?cat=technology (http://www.answers.com/topic/faithful?cat=technology)
There is a long-standing debate over faith versus works, but this kind of faith means works.
A mustard seed accomplishes what it does because it has the instructions. It knows what it is supposed to do because of its DNA.
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maybe it was a mistranslation?
Yeah, wouldn't be surprising at all, considering that whatever Jesus said he said in Aramaic, and the story was handed down orally for a good while before it was written in Greek. ???
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Yeah, wouldn't be surprising at all, considering that whatever Jesus said he said in Aramaic, and the story was handed down orally for a good while before it was written in Greek. ???
that is why I don't really get too worried about individual words...I do know that there are some things that are mentioned in the Bible that didn't grow in the Middle East and when they translated it into English they used plants they knew from where they lived in Europe. I think it is the message that is more important. What is the meaning behind the parable.
there is something about what you said about the DNA of the mustard seed that I am thinking but I can't figure out how to say it....let me think... :P and maybe I can figure it out before tonight! LOL!!
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In Mark 5, Jesus casts out a Legion of demons from a man to a herd of 2,000 pigs who then drowned themselves. My usual rationalizations don't explain this very well. If the man had a mental illness, it's hard to picture why the demons needed to go somewhere else. So in this case the demons are clearly presented as beings, rather than a condition.
Now this time the local people were not happy with the net effect. Even though the man had been cured, the herders had lost their pigs. (Obviously this was in gentile territory east of lake Galilee since they kept pigs.)
The man who was healed asks to stay with Jesus and the disciples. But Jesus says no, instructing him to tell his own people about what happened.
Back in Galilee, a woman in a crowd secretly reaches to touch the hem of Jesus's garment. He "feels the power proceeding from him" and turns to find her. He tells her that her faith has healed her of a 12-year hemorrhage.
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A synagogue official named Jairus comes to Jesus saying that his daughter is at the verge of death. When Jairus and Jesus arrive at the house of Jairus, everyone is crying that the girl has died.
But Jesus says "she is only sleeping." He takes the girl's hand and says "get up." She does, and everyone is astounded.
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So to take stock, the first 5 chapters of Mark cover several miraculous healings and one storm-stilling.
Jesus is at odds with the traditional religious leaders for healing on the Sabbath and for just generally not taking the scriptures literally enough.
I don't think he's said anything yet about the gays. ;)
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and you would think that he would be applauded. I guess it goes to show that human nature hasn't changed much in two thousand years..
off topic (kinda)
did you hear Mitt Romneys speech today about religion?
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Mitt Romneys speech
:o No, I didn't! What'd he say?
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:D Ah, here's the text I think ...
http://www.courant.com/news/custom/topnews/sns-ap-romney-text,0,2110328.story (http://www.courant.com/news/custom/topnews/sns-ap-romney-text,0,2110328.story)
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It was a lot like Kennedy's speech (the one where he tried to say that the Pope wouldn't control him)
Romneys was not as good. He was trying to say that America needs to bring more religion back....and that he wouldn't take orders from Mormon leaders to make decisions...
the conservative people didn't like it!
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He said, among other things, that the secularization of American needed to stop.
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He said, among other things, that the secularization of American needed to stop.
this stuff scares me....religion should be something you choose to come to...not something forced on you.
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He mentions Anne Hutchinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Hutchinson), 17th century Massachusetts feminist and home Bible study leader. ;)
She is listed as an ancestor of FDR, Marilyn Monroe, George Bush, Charles Manson, and Mitt Romney.
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He mentions Anne Hutchinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Hutchinson), 17th century Massachusetts feminist and home Bible study leader. ;)
She is listed as an ancestor of FDR, George Bush, Marilyn Monroe, Mitt Romney, and Charles Manson.
good grief....that is an assortment isn't it?
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:laugh: I guess ya never know how they're gonna turn out! ::)
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the conservative people didn't like it!
:) Well, at least there's that! :laugh:
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well considering it all...we are all related if we go back far enough.
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Reckon I better run and catch up with y'all later.
Shakes, can't wait to see you! You gone call me or what?
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He mentions Anne Hutchinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Hutchinson), 17th century Massachusetts feminist and home Bible study leader. ;)
She is listed as an ancestor of FDR, Marilyn Monroe, George Bush, Charles Manson, and Mitt Romney.
Did he mentioned that she was banished from Massachusetts basically for her Antinomian beliefs? She first settled in Rhode Island. She was eventually killed by Indians in New York.
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Today's chapter gets into some unpleasantness. :P
We are told that at a local parish school in England (http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2007/08/head-of-st-john-baptist.html) named for St. John the Baptist, the principal answers the phone:
Hello, this is the head of St John the Baptist speaking.
(http://bp0.blogger.com/_5BV_YADVD7o/RtVSqg2j6GI/AAAAAAAAA10/KaidULF7dpU/s320/BettyNun.jpg)
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Today's chapter gets into some unpleasantness. :P
We are told that at a local parish school in England (http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2007/08/head-of-st-john-baptist.html) named for St. John the Baptist, the principal answers the phone:
Hello, this is the head of St John the Baptist speaking.
(http://bp0.blogger.com/_5BV_YADVD7o/RtVSqg2j6GI/AAAAAAAAA10/KaidULF7dpU/s320/BettyNun.jpg)
I wonder if he answers from a platter? ;D
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(http://www.davecullen.com/forum/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif) Eww! :P Yeah I reckon!
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So, in today's episode, Mark 6, Jesus goes to his hometown of Nazareth. But they are not as impressed with him as everybody else has been.
-- Where did this man get these things?" they asked... "Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
Jesus then send the 12 apostles out in pairs to all the villages in the area to heal and cast out demons.
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Mark then switches over to the beheading of John the Baptist by Herod Antipas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_Antipas). John the Baptist had criticized Herod for marrying his brother's (former?) wife. According to Mark, Herod at first took it in stride because the people revered John. But Herod's wife got annoyed and had John beheaded.
This is said to be the head of John the Baptist ... :-\
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/25/St_johns_head.jpg/180px-St_johns_head.jpg)
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When word of Jesus got around, Mark tells us Herod said "John, the man I beheaded, has been raised from the dead!"
So thoughts about raising from the dead seem to have been prevalent.
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Jesus teaches a large crowd. But at the end of the day, everybody is hungry and among 5,000 people the only food they can find is five loaves and two fish.
Jesus has them sit down on the "green grass" in groups of 50 to 100, and shares the bread and fish. When they have finished passing it around, all 5,000 ate their fill and they collected twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish.
Later on in Chapter 8, Jesus asks the disciples to remember how many baskets were left. Some say the numerological significance is that there was enough left for the 12 tribes of Israel. And perhaps the 5 loaves and 5 thousand was a reference to the 5 books of Moses?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeding_the_multitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeding_the_multitude)
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Then Jesus sent them out by boat again on Lake Galilee, while he walked alone on a mountain.
"During the day Ennis looked across a great gulf and sometimes saw Jack, a small dot moving across a high meadow as an insect moves across a tablecloth; Jack, in his dark camp, saw Ennis as night fire, a red spark on the huge black mass of mountain. "
In the "fourth watch" - the last quarter of the night - Jesus saw from the mountain that their boat was struggling against the wind. He walked down to them, and didn't stop at the water's edge.
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Well they could be related, it kindley favors Jesus a little.
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A portion of this particular passage (Mark 6:52-53) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%206:52-53;&version=49;) appears to be written on a "postage-stamp sized" piece of papyrus dated to no later than AD 68.
If this is true it could be the earliest written bit of gospel text that has been found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark)
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Well they could be related...
;)
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Since Wayne isn't here tonight I will offer a little prayer
Lord please watch over Wayne, Truman, and Rich while they visit and have fun. Keep them on their adventures and see them home safely .
In Jesus's name.
Amen
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Thank you Jess! We had a fun time... had dinner on the rooftop! ;D
Hope everybody's having a good day. :D
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I thank Jesus that Truman had a fun trip and a safe ride home! :)
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Wayne I am reading a book called "the Year of Living Biblically" by AJ Jacobs. He is a non practicing Jew that decided to try to live very close to the tenets of the Bible...as close as he could get. It is VERY interesting to see the change in him as the year progresses. At first he was very tongue in cheek..*wink wink isn't all this silly* but as the year progresses you see him beginning to struggle and change. It is so interesting. He is just now trying to follow the New testament...there is a passage I want to post for you...let me find it.
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In Mark chapter 7, Jesus again addresses the distinction between following religious rules and doing God's will.
I can't altogether agree with Jesus that we should not wash our hands before we eat. I do think that God wants us to use our common sense to promote public health. But I think I get Jesus's main point that following rituals for show may not be the same thing as doing God's will.
Here's the Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_7)
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as the year progresses you see him beginning to struggle and change.
Interesting, yeah, I heard about that on NPR.
Aren't there some photos of him through the year as his beard and hair grow longer?
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yep,
"Greenburg says God is like an artist who is constantly revising his masterpiece. Sometimes, he nearly erases His whole work--as with the Great Flood. Other times, he listens to what humans say---Moses, for instance argues with God and convinces him to spare the lives of the complaining Isrealites. "It sounds strange to say it" he says "but in the Bible, God is on a learning curve""
"never blame a text from the Bible for your behaviour, it's irresponsible. Anybody who says X,Y, and Z is in the Bible---it is as if one says ' I have no role in evaluating this"
"just because you are religious doesnt mean you give up your responsibility to choose. You have to grapple with the Bible."
I like this interpretation...this way of looking at the Bible.
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Jesus seems to be getting more heat from the authorities. He secreatly retreats to Lebanon, but even there fame follows him.
He heals a Greek woman's daughter of an "unclean spirit." When she asks, he first resists, saying that food meant for "the children" (the Jews) should not be given to "the dogs" (the Gentiles).
Now honestly this sounds pretty trite to me - not the mindset of the only son of the universal omnipotent all-loving and only god.
The woman says Yes, but even the dogs get to eat the crumbs the children drop. So he tells her that her daughter (who is not present) is healed.
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Jesus seems to be getting more heat from the authorities. He secreatly retreats to Lebanon, but even there fame follows him.
He heals a Greek woman's daughter of an "unclean spirit." When she asks, he first resists, saying that food meant for "the children" (the Jews) should not be given to "the dogs" (the Gentiles).
Now honestly this sounds pretty trite to me - not the mindset of the only son of the universal omnipotent all-loving and only god.
The woman says Yes, but even the dogs get to eat the crumbs the children drop. So he tells her that her daughter (who is not present) is healed.
seems petty. and out of character.
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Jesus returns to Decapolis, the eastern (Gentile) side of the Sea of Galilee, and heals a man who is deaf and mute.
Again he charges the witnesses to tell no one, but word of this event gets out as well.
It seems odd that he wants to keep everything quiet.
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Jesus returns to Decapolis, the eastern (Gentile) side of the Sea of Galilee, and heals a man who is deaf and mute.
Again he charges the witnesses to tell no one, but word of this event gets out as well.
It seems odd that he wants to keep everything quiet.
how long is this from when he gets crucified? maybe he knew time was running short?
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At the time that the gospel of Mark was being verbally handed down and eventually written, there was a conflict between Jewish Christians based around Jesus's family and the growing gentile church that was coming to be based in Rome.
The children and the dogs might be a veiled reference to the issues of that later time. Or maybe that's what Jesus actually said, I don't know... ???
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At the time that the gospel of Mark was being verbally handed down and eventually written, there was a conflict between Jewish Christians based around Jesus's family and the growing gentile church that was coming to be based in Rome.
The children and the dogs might be a veiled reference to the issues of that later time. Or maybe that's what Jesus actually said, I don't know... ???
Tell you what I think the point of that story is. Don't forget that Jesus is fully man as well as fully God. I think the point of this story is that this is where Jesus himself learns that he is sent not just to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, but that his mission has a broader implication than just that. And I think it's really interesting that he learns this from a woman. ...
Just my two cents.
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this is where Jesus himself learns ... that his mission has a broader implication
:) I like that! Thanks Jeff ...
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So on to Mark 8. Here is the textM (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%208%20;&version=49;) and here's the Wikipedia writeup. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_8)
The feeding of the crowd is repeated, this time starting with 7 loaves and a few fish, and ending with 7 baskets of bread.
He gives sight to a Gentile man who had been blind. He sees them like trees, walking around. Jesus lays hands on hiw eyes again and his sight is restored.
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Alone with the disciples, Jesus asks who people think he is. The disciples tell him people think he is John the Baptist raised from the dead (as Herod thought), or Elijah.
The reference to Elijah is important because Malachi, the closing book of the Jewish scriptures, ends with a promise from God that he will send Elijah (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=46&chapter=4&version=49).
Elijah's purpose will be to "restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers," before "the day will come, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze"
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Jesus asks "But who do you say that I am?" and Peter says "You are the Christ."
"Christ" is the Greek version of the Hebrew word "Messiah" or anointed one.
Mark 8:31-32: He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. And He was stating the matter plainly.
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The disciples have been debating who among them will be rewarded with the greatest positions in the new kingdom, but Jesus reveals some deep ironies.
34 If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
35 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.
36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul?
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I am intrigued by the passage about having to take up your cross, it is like the individual crosses are unique to each person, or that is how it sounds to me.
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Yeah ... e.g., for me, to pretend to be straight would be to lose my soul.
So maybe one way of taking up my cross is to be honest about being gay.
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Wow. That is powerful.
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Chapter 9 opens with an interesting statement by Jesus: "some of those who are standing here will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power"
Does he mean that the kingdom of God will come during the normal lifetimes of the people there? Or that some of them will live supernaturally long lives until the kingdom comes? A passage at the end of the gospel of John suggests that Peter and some of the other disciples thought that the author of the gospel of John might be one of those who would live for an extended time. John 21:22-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=21&version=49) But the author of John then clarifies that that is not what Jesus actually said.
I tend to prefer non-supernatural explanations when I can come up with any, so I'm inclined to think Jesus meant the kingdom, the new way of living, was coming soon, during their normal lifetimes. So probably within 30 to 50 years anyway.
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What did happen in that time frame, about 40 years later, was the siege of Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70)).
The Roman army completely destroyed the city and led the Jews off to slavery.
Flavius Josephus, a a former Jewish commander now loyal to Rome, wrote:
"Anyone who had known the place before, arriving at the site, would have asked where the city was."
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Meanwhile, back in AD 30 or so, Jesus takes Peter, John, and James up on a mountain, traditionally believed to be Mount Tabor:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Mount_of_transfiguration_is.JPG/180px-Mount_of_transfiguration_is.JPG)
His clothes start to shine exceedingly white, and Moses and Elijah appear with him and talk with him. This is the Transfiguration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus).
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After a while the radiance abates and Moses and Elijah disappear. Jesus instructs Peter, John, and James not to tell anybody about this until the Son of Man rises from the dead. They debate what he means by "rising from the dead."
I'm curious about the Son of Man myself ... I'm not sure yet - do we know for sure that when he said "the Son of Man" he was talking about himself?
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He heals a boy of something that sounds like epilepsy.
He tells the apostles that "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later."
So this clearly sets out the crucifixion and resurrection story.
The apostles meanwhile are debating who among them is greatest. ::)
Always one for irony, he notes that "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."
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To follow up on the interpretation of the "son of man" ... Wikipedia comes through again! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_man)
Scholars differ in their interpretation of this phrase. It was very common in Middle Eastern texts for a very long time.
Usually it means "people" or "everybody" or "one" or "someone", but sometimes it implied "I".
It was not at all a regal sort of title, but might imply an humble condition, like (if you'll pardon me ;) ) "poor S.O.B." - oooh! or "mo fo." :laugh:
It sounds like the way we use the impersonal "you" in English to mean "one." As in "you have to be 18 to vote." We aren't really specifying that the person we're speaking to is the person who needs to be 18.
So while the traditional Christian interpretation of this phrase "son of man" is that Jesus is referring to himself, it's always worth considering what it would mean if you interpret it as the impersonal "you."
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Hi all...!!!
Since I just discovered this thread, I just read few from the start.
Because my face is still enflammed from the big tooth taken out, I will, if I may, just ask if you have had any lines yet concerning: homosexuality?
Awaiting your news,
hugs!!
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Hey Artiste! Hope you're feeling better soon !! :-\ :-X
So far I don't think I've seen anything specific to homosexuality ??? :o Isn't that what the Bible is supposed to be about ?!? :laugh: ;)
There have been some phrases about adultery and divorce. But if you can't get married, I reckon you can't get divorced...
I suspect even the divorce issue may not have been a primary concern of Jesus's. It was the Pharisees who brought it up, not Jesus, and they may have brought it up in hopes of trapping him. Remember that the reason John the Baptist was beheaded was for criticizing Herod's wife because she was divorced.
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:D We're getting some rain here in the southeast. Very happy about that. :)
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:D OK now, Mark chapter 10. Up to now, Jesus and his disciples have spent most of their time in Galilee, Jesus's home province in the north. They also went over to Lebanon even farther north on the Mediterranean coast.
Galilee was sort of the New Jersey of the time. Now Jesus is going south to Judea, with Jerusalem which was the center of life for the Jews. The Pharisees confront him there with questions about divorce. Mark says they are trying to trick Jesus into making some statement that will offend the authorities. Remember that John the Baptist was beheaded because he did not approve of Herod marrying a divorced woman (worse yet, his own brother's ex... ::) )
Jesus deftly avoids them noting that the law of Moses allowed for divorce, even though in a perfect world it would be nice if it could be avoided.
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Next, people are bringing their children to Jesus for his blessing, but the disciples are turning them away.
Jesus gets annoyed with the disciples and says "whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
This could be taken as a paradigm shift from the model of the time that relied on observing a complex system of rules.
It sounds to me like he's saying lighten up, be yourself, walk through your imagination into the world we really want to live in.
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A man who is interested in Jesus's message asks him what he must do to obtain eternal life.
Jesus tells him to sell everything he owns, give it to the poor, and follow him. The man goes away very sad.
Jesus tells his disciples that it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. The disciples wonder who can get into heaven at all then. ???
Jesus says with God all things are possible.
This seems to be among the earliest scanty details about eternal life and heaven. Up to now Mark's descriptions seem to focus more on earthly physical and mental healing.
Is Jesus more focused on the here and now, while the culture around him is trying to define methods to obtain eternal life?
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all of the ancient civilizations had myths of 'afterlife'.....I do believe Jesus was trying to spread an attitude of compassion for the weak and poor. To try to improve living conditions for all people here on earth. (remember being charitable is good not just for the receiving party but also for the one that gives)
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As they walk toward Jerusalem, the disciples are afraid of the conflict ahead. Jesus tells the Twelve that the son of man will be mocked, scourged, and killed, and three days later He will rise again.
James and John seem to miss the point, asking to sit on either side of Jesus's throne in the new kingdom.
Maybe we should read between the lines a bit here. Peter, John, and James are frequently mentioned in the gospel of Mark. Mark is apparently Peter's protege', writing all of this down in Rome some 30 to 50 years later.
By that time Peter had established himself as a leader in the church in Rome. In this role he eventually came to be thought of as the first pope.
So according to these verses they were already competing.
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:D Hey Miz Jess! Glad you could join us for Bible study tonight. ;) :-*
Yeah, for thousands of years the religion of the Egyptians seemed to be very focused on the afterlife.
It sounds almost comical how badly everyone seems to be missing Jesus's point. Can't you just imagine him rolling his eyes ... ::)
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:D Hey Miz Jess! Glad you could join us for Bible study tonight. ;) :-*
Yeah, for thousands of years the religion of the Egyptians seemed to be very focused on the afterlife.
It sounds almost comical how badly everyone seems to be missing Jesus's point. Can't you just imagine him rolling his eyes ... ::)
sounded to me like they were trying to look for the 'angles' you know..."How can I get around the rules"??
in so many of the older religions you could 'buy' your way out of trouble by buying animals to sacrifice or trinkets for the temple...now here is Jesus saying "It is not what you have...but who you are!" that is important
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in so many of the older religions you could 'buy' your way out of trouble by buying animals to sacrifice or trinkets for the temple
Right - the rich man seems to be relying on his riches, and Jesus challenges him to do exactly the opposite - to abandon his riches.
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but it is not just a challenge....he is telling the rich man that he has to change HIMSELF to get into heaven
well I guess you can call it a challenge...but to me it is more just a fact...a warning
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Yep, sounds right to me. :)
Well, past 2am :o I best head off for bed shortly ... hope everything's going well Miz Jess! :-* :-* -_- -_-
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The site that Shasta pointed us to has an interesting page about Jesus's reaction to the rejection of his message.
http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Jesus'Death3.htm (http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Jesus'Death3.htm)
If Jesus were omniscient from the start, he would have known they were going to reject his message.
He wouldn't be surprised. Would he have even bothered? ???
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I have a heretical theory about all that....but I don't want to derail your lil train! LOL
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:D Please feel free Jess! I think alternative interpretations are interesting! :)
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Maybe while we're on the topic of alternatives, and we happen to be in Mark chapter 10, this would be a good time to introduce the Secret Gospel of Mark. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Gospel_of_Mark)
Secret Mark consists of only 2 short passages that are said to have been deleted from the gospel of Mark as we have it. The authenticity of Secret Mark is disputed. It was either discovered or created in 1958 by biblical scholar Morton Smith in a monastery near Jerusalem.
http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/SecretMk/secretmk.html (http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/SecretMk/secretmk.html)
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The text is available only because it is quoted within a letter written by Clement in Alexandria in the 2nd century. It starts out innocuously enough. The story is so familiar that we feel sure we know the name of the young man who had died, even though it is not specified here. The longer of the 2 passages is to be inserted after Mark 10:46. The text of that passage is this:
And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, 'Son of David, have mercy on me.' But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.
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The part that really catches my eye is:
in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God.
To me that sounds really nice. :)
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Clement is responding to questions from a man named Theodore. He tells Theodore that Secret Mark does not contain the phrase "naked man with naked man," and provides the quote above.
You can see photos of Clement's letter here: http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_back_issues/SecretMk2/secretmk2.html (http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_back_issues/SecretMk2/secretmk2.html)
(although the 1st page doesn't show on my machine - I can only see pages 2 and 3)
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He wouldn't be surprised. Would he have even bothered? ???
I think we all have things in our life we wonder why we bother with. Like what difference is it going to make buying a christmas present for some child relative who won;t remember. I think he was banking karma, he was doing it because it was pushing the world in the right direction from his vantage point.
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The second excerpt is very brief and is to be inserted, according to Clement, in Mark 10:46:
And the sister of the youth whom Jesus loved and his mother and Salome were there, and Jesus did not receive them.
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The description of Jesus accompanied by a young man wearing only a linen cloth - and then wearing nothing - comes up again in the official text of Mark in chapter 14 verses 51-52: a young man in a linen cloth is seized during Jesus' arrest, but he escapes at the cost of his clothing. :-\
As we read further I wonder if we can discern how much time passes between Secret Mark and Jesus's arrest... ?
If these two events were close together, maybe this is the same young man?
And maybe this young man is the same as "the disciple whom Jesus loved," who was the author of the gospel of John.
For me it makes the whole story come together. Suddenly these are people I can understand... :)
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Wayne where did all the apostles go after the crucifixion? I know Mark went to Egypt but his body ended up in Venice, where it rests in a basilica. Seems like Tomas went to India and Bartholomew went to Armenia, and of course Peter to Rome. Interesting this letter to Clement was in Alexandria.
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Interesting, yes... if Mark went to Egypt then it seems particularly plausible that another version of his text could have been circulating in Alexandria.
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The second excerpt is very brief and is to be inserted, according to Clement, in Mark 10:46:
And the sister of the youth whom Jesus loved and his mother and Salome were there, and Jesus did not receive them.
So you think his treatment of women is indicitive of the way women were treated in that society, or maybe Jesus was not interested in spend his time telling them about the kingdom? i.e., he was not interested in women.
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:-\ hmmm, I don't know. ??? What do you thaink?
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You know the saying HELL HATH NO FURY? Maybe that was the root of Salome and John the Baptist as enemies.. Jesus snubbed her, and it caused a "fury" that he would eventually
have come back to trail him and his cousin... Just a thought. :-\
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:-\ hmmm, I don't know. ??? What do you thaink?
Well we'll never know for sure, but I think he was Gay.
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Rings true to me! ;) :)
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Wayne have you ever seen the books that were NOT included in the finalized version of the Christian Bible?
particularly the one that tells of Jesus when he was a young boy?
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No I haven't Jess inform us.. Are you talking about the Apocripha?
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No I haven't Jess inform us.. Are you talking about the Apocripha?
LOL!! I was hoping Wayne could help me there...I have only seen it once.
so I don't know what it is called.
there is a story in there of Jesus when he was young, a boy ran into him in the street and Jesus killed him.
and as sacrilegous as that is to say, it actually makes the ENTIRE story more realistic to me. If Jesus came as a babe and grew up here as a human, then he didn't KNOW his own power. There is another story about him playing by a creek and making birds out of mud and breathing life into them.
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Now those are some interesting tales. Wonder if they had that wacky tobaccy back then too. Sorry that just seems a bit farfetched..to me.
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Now those are some interesting tales. Wonder if they had that wacky tobaccy back then too. Sorry that just seems a bit farfetched..to me.
LOL!
well I was reading something about how the Bible was put together. Originally those chapters were included.
who knows what was going on back then (which is why I don't believe in slaughtering people over it....too easy to misinterpret something)
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My homage to Homer Simpson....DOH!!!
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My homage to Homer Simpson....DOH!!!
???
:laugh: :laugh:
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I have never seen a Catholic bible, but i have heard there is some of that stuff in it.
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Hey y'all ! Yes, I have heard of those but haven't read them yet ... that would be fun! :D
I've read some of the gnostic texts like the gospel of Thomas (great except for the last verse .... >:( ) and the gospel of Mary (weird, but ??? ) In the last 20 years or so the gospel of Judas has surfaced as well.
Like you say, lots of different perspectives!
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As we read further I wonder if we can discern how much time passes between Secret Mark and Jesus's arrest... ?
If these two events were close together, maybe this is the same young man?
Well we get a quick answer to at least the first question in chapter 11. The next event is Palm Sunday, the week that Jesus died.
So if Secret Mark is true, it is strongly plausible that that naked man is the same naked man who the authorities almost capture with Jesus a few days later in the official version of Mark 14. :D
I think Jesus had a boyfriend! :-* :-*
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Also let's take a look again at chapter 10 verses 17-22, the part about the rich young man seeking eternal life ...
"Jesus having looked upon him, did love him, and said ... (sell all you have, give it away, and come with me) ... The man went away sorrowing, for he was rich"
This sounds similar to the reaction AND the circumstances of the man raised from the dead just a few verses later in Secret Mark:
"the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich."
Maybe this was the same man?!? :D
And this is how they fell in love ... :)
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Chapter 11: Up to Jerusalem
Jesus tells two disciples that they will find a young donkey tied at a gate near Jerusalem. Maybe the rich man who he has just raised from the dead arranged for it to be placed there.
Jesus rides the donkey up the hill into Jerusalem, and masses of people crowd the streets to welcome him as the new king. They throw coats and palm fronds into the street before him to honor his triumphal entry.
This is the event commemorated as Palm Sunday, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_sunday) five days before Jesus will be killed.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Meister_der_Palastkapelle_in_Palermo_002.jpg/300px-Meister_der_Palastkapelle_in_Palermo_002.jpg)
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The next day Jesus curses a fig tree for not having any figs on it. Sounds strange. The disciples point out to him that figs are not in season.
They proceed to the temple, where Jesus disrupts the daily activities throwing tables over and chasing out the people who sell animals for sacrifice, as well as the people who sell the commemorative coins that have to be used to purchase the animals.
Their traditional purpose there has been to alleviate the stress on people who had to travel a long way and would otherwise have to cart in an awful lot of odd things like doves and cattle and sheep to perform their daily rituals. This way they could just pay for it.
The Jews held two provinces: Judea and Galilee. The two areas were not contiguous, and Galilee was always at a disadvantage. Jerusalem, the capital where the scriptures said all the big money had to be managed, was in Judea. People from Galilee - like, let's say, Jesus - were at the mercy of their prices. Jesus threw them out of the temple and called them a den of thieves. Good for him I say. ;D
The scribes and the chief priests heard, and decided to kill him.
(http://www.painsley.org.uk/re/Atlas/herodpal.gif)
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I think I may creat an expression "Curse a Fig Tree" to point out something absurd.
This is the point when I start loosing it with Jesus. His behavior seems out of control and somewhat psychotic. I have often heard peopl say they thought he might be schitzophrenic, would be hard to judge, but some of his actions seem very human in nature.
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Yeah, it does sound pointlessly spiteful. ???
But that fig tree shrivels up and dies the next day! :o According to Mark, it's Peter (from whom Mark got the story) who notes it.
I understand that Peter says in the Gospel of Peter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter) that this was an allegory for how Jesus's efforts among the Jews had been fruitless, and it was time to turn the mission effort to the surrounding Greek provinces.
Myself I wonder if they're too much into allegory ... :-\
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Can our lives have too much allegory?
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Jesus recommends a Lord's Mini-Prayer: "When you pray, forgive, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you."
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Can our lives have too much allegory?
Wow, that's deep! lemme think.
Hmmmm... ???
hmmmmmmm ::)
hmm. >:(
hmmmm!!! :o
No. ;) :laugh:
What do you think Shakesmyfriend? :)
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The chief priests et al ask him by what authority he takes these actions.
To avoid saying anything against the law, Jesus poses a counter-question: was the baptism of John real or fake?
The chief priests decline to answer, because the people hold John in reverence.
So Jesus refuses to answer their question as well.
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What do you think Shakesmyfriend? :)
I think it could, but mostly for ourselves. ;)
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Sorry Wayne for usurping your blog...please accept my apology...
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??? Wait, what, no problem?!? You (and everybody) are welcome to say whatever you like! It's our family Bible study after all! ;D :-* :-*
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I've gone and got myself all excited about this Lazarus Hypothesis. So even though this is more explicitly relevant to the gospel of John than the gospel of Mark, I want to go ahead and post some relevant websites.
Some of these sites come from a traditional Christian perspective and some from other perspectives, but I think they make a convincing case for two amazing conclusions about Lazarus, the man who Jesus has just raised from the dead:
1. He is the "disciple whom Jesus loved" in the gospel of John
2. He is the author of the gospel of John
To these I would add that the relationship described between Jesus and this disciple is physical. We'll see more of that in John.
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OK so some external sites that come to this conclusion:
The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved (http://www.thedisciplewhomjesusloved.com/)
Why did the "other disciple whom Jesus loved" conceal his identity (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1117509&postcount=180) at theologyonline.com
The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel (http://www.voiceofjesus.org/lazarus.htm) at VoiceofJesus.com
Lazarus and the Fourth Gospel Community (http://www.amazon.com/Lazarus-Fourth-Gospel-Community-Biblical/dp/0773424288), a scholarly book at Amazon.com
Lazarus: the Beloved Disciple? (http://www.psychicquesting.com/article3.html) at Psychic Questing
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In chapter 12, Jesus tells a parable of a landowner who rents his farm out. But the tenants kill the servants that he sends to collect the rent, so the landowner kills them and gets new tenants.
Later, the Pharisees and some Herodians ask Jesus if it is proper to pay taxes. This could be a trap because the people resent paying taxes, but the law requires it. Jesus notes that coins carry Caesar's image, so pay Caesar what is due Caesar, and pay God what is due God. What is made in God's image?
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Next Jesus is question by the Saducees, a Jewish sect that did not believe in resurrection of the body.
To illustrate their point, they tell a story of a woman who was married to 7 brothers, each of whom had died in succession. Which one would be her husband in heaven?
Jesus answers that there is no marriage in heaven.
This topic of marriage was a real hot-button issue for these folks! Sounds familiar eh? ;) :laugh:
Like ifyoucantfixit was saying, (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,15343.msg302780.html#msg302780) the authorities may have been pushing questions about marriage to try to get Jesus in trouble, because that's how they managed to get John the Baptist beheaded. :-X
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A scribe asks Jesus what is the greatest commandment. Jesus answers with two commandments:
1/ Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and
2/ Love your neighbor as yourself.
The scribe says, yes, you are right. These are more important than all the burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Jesus says "You are not far from the Kingdom of Heaven."
This is some of the clearest information we get from Jesus about exactly what he was working for.
The Kingdom of Heaven is something very close to loving God, loving your neighbor as yourself, and recognizing that these are more important than following a complicated list of rules.
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Jesus says beware of religious leaders who make a big show of themselves, but who devour widows' houses, and for appearance's sake offer long prayers. They will be condemned.
My own comment - couldn't this describe an awful lot of what is done in the name of organized religion today?
And how so-called Christianity is used in American politics?
I'm sure I'm not the first person to notice that! ::) :laugh: ;)
If you want to follow Jesus, work for a system that will help the poor instead of enriching the rich.
But keep in mind what they did to Jesus for saying that ... :-\
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Most of these topics are ones as they say ..you didn't learn in kindergarden.
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;D Very true. Maybe we can change that !! ;)
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I have learned a few new words lately. One is irenic: conducive to peace
from Luke, Judaism, and the Scholars: Critical Approaches to Luke-Acts By Joseph B. Tyson: (http://books.google.com/books?id=vD3eKp2heYoC&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=irenic+gospel&source=web&ots=ZhxcKjCsN1&sig=ALPtTVjT8vPHsHiPERVCr0jSDIw)
"Canonical Luke is a neutralizing collection of Pauline and Judaistic discourses and narratives. The Pauline elements appear as the basis of the gospel and the Judaistic as the interpolations and additions. The result is an irenic gospel."
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Mkay so Mark 13. Walking out of the temple in Jerusalem, Jesus predicts that "not one stone will be left upon another." This actually happened in AD 70 when Jerusalem was completely destroyed by Roman armies and the Jews were led out to slavery.
It's not altogether clear whether Jesus was making a supernatural prediction, since the event had probably already occurred at approximately the time when the book of Mark was written down.
This is one of the eschatological bits (though not the biggest one) that gets pointed to in discussions of the "second coming." I don't put too much stock in this particular one because it has already happened, and had already happened even when the book was written.
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An interesting linguistic insight on the "abomination of desolation." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation)
Many scholars (Hoffmann, Nestle, Bevan, and others) suggest that the term "abomination of desolation" in Hebrew (šiqqǔṣ šômēm), would have been easily recognized as a play on the usual appellation for Jupiter which was "Baal Shamem" ("lord of heaven").
The event that the prophet Daniel was referring to (in the quotation that Jesus was using) was the placement in 167 BC of an altar to Zeus (Jupiter) in the Second Temple in Jerusalem by the Greek ruler Antiochus Epiphanes. He sacrificed pigs on it.
Jesus (or at least the writer of the gospel of Mark) was recycling the same phrase to refer to the 2nd destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70. Notice Jesus says the abomination will be "standing where he ought not to be," which sounds consistent with the placement of a statue of Jupiter ("shomem" or "shamem"), which is exactly what happened in 167 BC (though not in 70 AD). So that's what Mark meant by "let the reader understand."
Several passages in the gospels and Paul's letters suggest that the early Christians expected Jesus to return at that time to establish his kingdom. That's what "this generation standing here right now shall not pass away before these events come to pass" sounded like to them at the time.
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By the way my userpic is an image of the planet Jupiter as photographed from a satellite orbiting Mars.
I chose it several months ago. It is not intended to represent the abomination of desolation. ;) :laugh:
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I have learned a few new words lately. One is irenic: conducive to peace
from Luke, Judaism, and the Scholars: Critical Approaches to Luke-Acts By Joseph B. Tyson: (http://books.google.com/books?id=vD3eKp2heYoC&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=irenic+gospel&source=web&ots=ZhxcKjCsN1&sig=ALPtTVjT8vPHsHiPERVCr0jSDIw)
"Canonical Luke is a neutralizing collection of Pauline and Judaistic discourses and narratives. The Pauline elements appear as the basis of the gospel and the Judaistic as the interpolations and additions. The result is an irenic gospel."
that made my head hurt...
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I've gone and got myself all excited about this Lazarus Hypothesis. So even though this is more explicitly relevant to the gospel of John than the gospel of Mark, I want to go ahead and post some relevant websites.
Some of these sites come from a traditional Christian perspective and some from other perspectives, but I think they make a convincing case for two amazing conclusions about Lazarus, the man who Jesus has just raised from the dead:
1. He is the "disciple whom Jesus loved" in the gospel of John
2. He is the author of the gospel of John
To these I would add that the relationship described between Jesus and this disciple is physical. We'll see more of that in John.
I hate to seem narrow-minded, but I think I'm stickin' with John as John, the Beloved Disciple.
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:) No problem - like so many things, it's open to interpretation.
By the way remember though the difference between apostles and disciples. There were exactly 12 apostles, but many followers of Jesus were called disciples. So the beloved disciple is not necessarily one of the 12 apostles.
Also the "book of John" itself does not state who the author was. It came to be ascribed to John only later by tradition.
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Well, I've had a hard day. My cat Mister Mew died yesterday afternoon... no illness, just sleeping on the couch.
I love him so much. He will be part of me forever.
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In Mark 14, Jesus is back at Bethany at the home of Simon the Leper. A woman brings an alabaster box (http://www.montoyasculpture.com/catalog/images/01020_Bolder%20White%20Alabaster%20Translucent.jpg) of expensive perfume, pure nard, (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/4/48/200px-Nard.jpg) breaks the box and pours the perfume on Jesus's head.
The gospel of John tells us that Jesus had come to Bethany to be with Lazarus, and this woman is Mary the sister of Lazarus. Remember that Bethany is their home town.
The gospel of Luke says that this woman was a sinner, and she poured the perfume on his feet instead of his head, and wiped it with her hair and her tears. (My tears are with Mister Mew today...) Luke also says that this dinner was at the home of a Pharisee.
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The next day Jesus tells the disciples that arrangements have been made for Passover supper at an upper room in the city. Again we might wonder who made the arrangements. Could it have been the Beloved Disciple?
At dinner, Jesus tells the twelve apostles that one of them will betray him. Many of them ask, "surely not I?" He tells them that the one who will betray him is the one who shares bread with him at a certain moment. Mark doesn't say whether Jesus told everyone it was Judas, but John says that he told only the beloved disciple, and the rest of the apostles did not know.
The betrayer of course turns out to be Judas Iscariot. Incidentally, if I understand correctly, Judas is the only one of the twelve apostles who was from Judea rather than Galilee.
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Jesus tells them the time has come. This is the last wine he will drink until the kingdom of God arrives.
He tells Peter that Peter will deny knowing him 3 times before morning. Peter is aghast.
He takes the disciples to the garden of Gethsemane. Peter, John, and James fall asleep while Jesus prays. Judas arrives with the authorities carrying swords and clubs. All the disciples flee, except for one:
"A young man was following Him, wearing nothing but a linen sheet over his naked body; and they seized him. But he pulled free of the linen sheet and escaped naked."
As we noted above, this sounds reminiscent of the young man of Secret Mark, and of the Beloved Disciple, the author of the gospel of John, whether that is the Apostle John, or the disciple Lazarus, or someone else. The writer of the gospel of John had details about Jesus's prayers in Gethsemane as well as the arrest and subsequent events that none of the other gospels include.
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Jesus is taken to the authorities (in the middle of the night if I understand correctly).
They make lots of accusations, but the stories are inconsistent and do not seem to constitute a solid case. They beat him, blindfold and mock him.
Outside, Peter warms himself by the fire. Just as Jesus foretold, Peter is asked 3 times if he is one of Jesus's followers, and denies it all 3 times.
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By the way, we might wonder here: since Peter is outside at this time, and this is Peter's version of the story as re-told by Mark, who provided the information about what was going on inside the court?
One possibility, consistent with the information in the gospel of John, is that the beloved disciple went into the court with Jesus and provided this perspective.
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Well, I've had a hard day. My cat Mister Mew died yesterday afternoon... no illness, just sleeping on the couch.
I love him so much. He will be part of me forever.
{{{Wayne}}}
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Its so hard when we lose ones we love.. sorry so sorry.
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Thank y'all so much for thinking of me ... :'( Cliff and I just have to go through it.
We don't know what happened; he had not been ill. I can only say I'm glad he didn't suffer.
And that I know he knows we love him and we always will. And that he will always love us, and always be part of us.
We will both miss Mister Mew very very much...
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Well, things are not going well for Jesus either in Mark 15. In the early morning the local authorities take him to the court of Pontius Pilate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate), the Roman "prefect" of Judea from 26 to 36 AD.
Pilate is concerned with any political threat, and asks Jesus if he is "King of the Jews." According to Mark, Jesus answers "You say it." This seems pretty enigmatic, very much in Jesus's style.
Sometimes this gets translated as "Yes." But it seems it could also mean anything ranging from "If you say so," to "Listen to yourself, even you say so." It probably left even Pilate wondering what he meant (verse 5).
Wikipedia says that in modern times, Western traditions of Christianity hold Pilate and thus Rome accountable for Jesus's death, while Eastern traditions believe Pilate was exonerated by washing his hands as indicated in other gospels. Mark does not mention the hand-washing ceremony.
Mark writes that Pilate suggested Jesus be released under the annual tradition of release of prisoners at Passover, but the people said release Barabbas instead. Mark says "Barabbas had been imprisoned with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the insurrection." Other gospels say he was a robber.
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Jesus is scourged, mocked, and taken to be crucified. They offer him wine containing myrrh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrrh), but he did not receive it. In Luke, of course, myrrh is one of the 3 gifts that had been brought to Jesus as a baby. It was sometimes worth more than gold, 5 times as costly as frankincense, used in perfumes and to dress dead bodies. Here is some myrrh:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/Myrrh.JPG/200px-Myrrh.JPG)
When he was crucified, people mocked him saying "You saved others, why don't you save yourself now?"
After six hours, he said "My God, my God, why did you forsake me?" He cried out and died. Mark says he "yielded the spirit." The word "spirit" comes from the same source as "breath." So when God's spirit moved upon the waters in Genesis, you can also think of that as the breath of God.
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I don't have any myrrh, but I do have a bottle of lavender.
I just now sprinkled a little where we buried Mister Mew about this time yesterday.
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Mark says the veil of the sanctuary in the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. This represents of course an opening of the block between earth and heaven.
I can't find this right now but I have read an interesting hypothesis that some of the disciples may have gone into the temple and torn the veil.
No idea how plausible this is, but it's an interesting thought.
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The centurion guard watching him die said "Truly this man was Son of God."
Joseph of Arimathea requested the body. The centurion certified to Pilate that Jesus was dead, and the body was granted. He and several women who were disciples from Galilee wrapped the body in fine linen and laid his body in a tomb that had been carved out of rock.
They placed a heavy stone across the front of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where the body was laid.
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An example of a tomb hewn from rock at about that time. The body would be laid there for a year to decompose. Then the bones would be collected and placed in an ossuary. The tomb would then be used again later for another member of the family.
(http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070226/070226_tomb_hmed_10p.h2.jpg)
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Well I'd like to wrap this one up for now.
I'll tell you straight: it's not what you might think.
For centuries, the authoritative gospel of Mark ended with no sightings of a resurrected Jesus.
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The sabbath having passed, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2016;&version=31;
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They hoped there would be someone there to help them roll the stone away from the tomb, because it was very large.
But when they arrived, the stone had already been rolled away.
As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.' "
Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
And as far as we know, that is the end of the gospel of Mark.
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Today, maybe more than any day in my life before, I want to believe in an everlasting life.
If I live long enough, I know that there will come at least two more times in my life when I will want it even more than now.
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Later manuscripts add verses 9-20 in which Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene and the other disciples. The tone is a little different, and authorities agree that these verses are not part of the original.
But the original does seem to end unexpectedly.
It has been suggested that the last page of the book, or the outermost spiral of the scroll, wore away from use like a ragged paperback book and was lost before the rest of the manuscript was copied.
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Today, maybe more than any day in my life before, I want to believe in an everlasting life.
If I live long enough, I know that there will come at least two more times in my life when I will want it even more than now.
And what are those two things, Wayne?
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May you have a wonderful and fulfilling Christmas season, and Very Glorious New Year. I dont know you very well, but from what I hear from Truman and Lynne, whom I trust totally. You are truly a deserving individual. So from me to you Happy Holidays, and forever.
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb162/ifyoucantfixit/2-2.jpg)
" Christ the Pantocrator"
The most common translation of Pantocrator is "Almighty" or "All-powerful." In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek words for "all" and the noun "strength" (κρατος). This is often understood in terms of potential power; i.e., able to do anything, or omnipotent.
Another, less literal translation is "Ruler of All" or "Sustainer of the World." In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek for "all" and the verb meaning "To accomplish something" or "to sustain something" (κρατεω). This translation speaks more to God's actual power; i.e., God does everything (as opposed to God can do everything).
The Pantokrator, largely a Byzantine or Eastern Orthodox theological issue is by that name largely unknown to Roman Catholicism and most Protestants. In the West the equivalent image is known as Christ in Majesty, which developed a rather different iconography. Pantokrator is roughly synonymous with the western concept of omnipotence. But omnipotence is power in stasis while the power of the Pantokrator is dynamic.
courtesy of Orthodox Photos.com.
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So, in today's episode, Mark 6, Jesus goes to his hometown of Nazareth. But they are not as impressed with him as everybody else has been.
-- Where did this man get these things?" they asked... "Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
Jesus then send the 12 apostles out in pairs to all the villages in the area to heal and cast out demons.
Okay so i am sorry I am so far behind, and this is just gonna totally back up everything but I will just plow thru here and conjecture of the last week or two, okay?
Well they already knew Jesus in Nazareth. They had his number, whatever it was, and I doubt there was much he could do to impress them.
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Jesus teaches a large crowd. But at the end of the day, everybody is hungry and among 5,000 people the only food they can find is five loaves and two fish.
Jesus has them sit down on the "green grass" in groups of 50 to 100, and shares the bread and fish. When they have finished passing it around, all 5,000 ate their fill and they collected twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish.
Later on in Chapter 8, Jesus asks the disciples to remember how many baskets were left. Some say the numerological significance is that there was enough left for the 12 tribes of Israel. And perhaps the 5 loaves and 5 thousand was a reference to the 5 books of Moses?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeding_the_multitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeding_the_multitude)
You rememory that story about the Stone Soup, Captain Kangaroo featured it prevalently. I bet it was like that, he told people well I got this and laid the trip on them and they started pulling stuff out too.
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Since Wayne isn't here tonight I will offer a little prayer
Lord please watch over Wayne, Truman, and Rich while they visit and have fun. Keep them on their adventures and see them home safely .
In Jesus's name.
Amen
Elly Law Jess I am just now seeing this, thank kew, it worked. And I appreciate it.
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In Mark chapter 7, Jesus again addresses the distinction between following religious rules and doing God's will.
I can't altogether agree with Jesus that we should not wash our hands before we eat. I do think that God wants us to use our common sense to promote public health. But I think I get Jesus's main point that following rituals for show may not be the same thing as doing God's will.
Here's the Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_7)
This, I would argue, is part of my belief that Jesus may have had some issues. Bless his heart.
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At the time that the gospel of Mark was being verbally handed down and eventually written, there was a conflict between Jewish Christians based around Jesus's family and the growing gentile church that was coming to be based in Rome.
The children and the dogs might be a veiled reference to the issues of that later time. Or maybe that's what Jesus actually said, I don't know... ???
SO I wonder if the Marionite Church refers to that family of Jesus, as they are still about today. I remember some of the earliest bishops in Italy were from Syria.
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Because my face is still enflammed from the big tooth taken out, I will, if I may, just ask if you have had any lines yet concerning: homosexuality?
Jesus! Poor ole' Artiste, I am sorry to hear about that. It does however make me think of faith healing and people who do not seek certain medical proceedure because of these passages, having faith they can be cured as well.
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As they walk toward Jerusalem, the disciples are afraid of the conflict ahead.
I bet so, Herod would be there and he has done had John the Baptist killed. it could be assumed this would surely happen to Jesus as well, he was even more of a threat.
I also wonder about the ags of the followers. If all the male babies were put to death when he was born would he have been told about this growing up? What pressure would he have been under when his parent(s) told him all these babies died because they were trying to kill him? I think the psychologial implication would be enough to make it a self fulfilling prophacy.
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Now those are some interesting tales. Wonder if they had that wacky tobaccy back then too. Sorry that just seems a bit farfetched..to me.
Look at Elvis, the stories already being told about him, and there was that movie with Ann Margaret where he cures Autism.
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Jesus rides the donkey up the hill into Jerusalem, and masses of people crowd the streets to welcome him as the new king. They throw coats and palm fronds into the street before him to honor his triumphal entry.
"Aguirre came up again, said my Uncle Harold didn't die after all.
Said bring 'em down"
And they ride on horse back out of the wilderness.
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Sorry Wayne for usurping your blog...please accept my apology...
Janice, if you make new years resolutions, I hope you will consider resolving to be meaner. :laugh: ;)
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A scribe asks Jesus what is the greatest commandment. Jesus answers with two commandments:
1/ Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and
2/ Love your neighbor as yourself.
The scribe says, yes, you are right. These are more important than all the burnt offerings and sacrifices.
At that time I think there was a transition going on from a earth based belief system involving literal sacrifie and the institutional practice that has become modern day Judaism, while it still incorporates several ritual involing ram horns, depending on the omount of Orthodoxy you aspire to. Perhaps Jesus was wanting to get in on this debate and push things in a certain direction.
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And how so-called Christianity is used in American politics?
I'm sure I'm not the first person to notice that! ::) :laugh: ;)
If you want to follow Jesus, work for a system that will help the poor instead of enriching the rich.
But keep in mind what they did to Jesus for saying that ... :-\
Well they spend their time being upset about:
1. Gay people getting married.
2. Gay people in general.
3. Abortion.
4. Evolution.
And I am like there are people living in cardboard boxes! THIS is what you want to spend money on?
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By the way my userpic is an image of the planet Jupiter as photographed from a satellite orbiting Mars.
I chose it several months ago. It is not intended to represent the abomination of desolation. ;) :laugh:
I like a little desolation ever now and then.
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Jesus tells them the time has come. This is the last wine he will drink until the kingdom of God arrives.
He tells Peter that Peter will deny knowing him 3 times before morning. Peter is aghast.
He takes the disciples to the garden of Gethsemane. Peter, John, and James fall asleep while Jesus prays. Judas arrives with the authorities carrying swords and clubs. All the disciples flee, except for one:
"A young man was following Him, wearing nothing but a linen sheet over his naked body; and they seized him. But he pulled free of the linen sheet and escaped naked."
As we noted above, this sounds reminiscent of the young man of Secret Mark, and of the Beloved Disciple, the author of the gospel of John, whether that is the Apostle John, or the disciple Lazarus, or someone else. The writer of the gospel of John had details about Jesus's prayers in Gethsemane as well as the arrest and subsequent events that none of the other gospels include.
This is the night he comes up with the lords prayer and I understood they all fell asleap but we know about his asking is this the only way, and the lords prayer, so perhaps it is this young man who was with him that taught it to the rest of us.
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Wikipedia says that in modern times, Western traditions of Christianity hold Pilate and thus Rome accountable for Jesus's death, while Eastern traditions believe Pilate was exonerated by washing his hands as indicated in other gospels. Mark does not mention the hand-washing ceremony.
Which is interesting as Jesus has been citied as saying not to wash your hands. Indeed I think the exoneration of Pilate and Rome goes hand in hand with blaming the Jews for his death. I think everyone had a part in it, including Jesus. I think he was intentionally martyring himself.
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Today, maybe more than any day in my life before, I want to believe in an everlasting life.
If I live long enough, I know that there will come at least two more times in my life when I will want it even more than now.
I believe it will be friend, I have not seen it. But even ifit sleep, dream, or just a good light show, I will be thankful.
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laid the trip on them and they started pulling stuff out too.
:laugh: ;) exactly ! I wonder if a lot of miracles have to do with just getting people to do what they know is right in the first place.
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(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb162/ifyoucantfixit/2-2.jpg)
"Christ the Pantocrator" - "Sustainer of the World."
:) wow - that's really beautiful iycfi!!! Thank you and Merry Christmas to you too! :) :-*
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I like a little desolation ever now and then.
Well, talk about desolation - you get out there anywhere near Jupiter and Mars? Now that's desolate. :o
Ooooh, and thanks so much for the calamondin marmalade Shakes!!!! We had it with some muffins Momma made this Christmas mornin... MmmM! ;D
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Well, talk about desolation - you get out there anywhere near Jupiter and Mars? Now that's desolate. :o
Ooooh, and thanks so much for the calamondin marmalade Shakes!!!! We had it with some muffins Momma made this Christmas mornin... MmmM! ;D
Its some purdy good stuff ain't it? We threw in an orange to lighten it up a bit.
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Now you have my curiosity peaked...What is that...I love marmalade..but i never heard of that!! ;D
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St. John is commemorated on 27 December, which he originally shared with St. James the Greater. At Rome the feast was reserved to St. John alone at an early date, though both names are found in the Carthage Calendar, the Hieronymian Martyrology, and the Gallican liturgical books. The "departure" or "assumption" of the Apostle is noted in the Menology of Constantinople and the Calendar of Naples (26 September), which seems to have been regarded as the date of his death. The feast of St. John before the Latin Gate, supposed to commemorate the dedication of the church near the Porta Latina, is first mentioned in the Sacramentary of Adrian I (772-95).
Early Christian art usually represents St. John with an eagle, symbolizing the heights to which he rises in the first chapter of his Gospel. The chalice as symbolic of St. John, which, according to some authorities, was not adopted until the thirteenth century, is sometimes interpreted with reference to the Last Supper, again as connected with the legend according to which St. John was handed a cup of poisoned wine, from which, at his blessing, the poison rose in the shape of a serpent. Perhaps the most natural explanation is to be found in the words of Christ to John and James "My chalice indeed you shall drink" (Matthew 20:23).
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Here is some additional information I found about John... also known as John the one whom Christ loved.
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:) Thanks Miz Fixit!! I've thought a lot about the pantocrator image - it is comforting. :)
Now about the marmalade! When Truman was here in Atlanta a couple of weeks ago I gave him some calamondins from my tree in the back yard. It's about 8 feet tall, and it's in a pot so we can bring it inside when the temp goes below 30 degrees. Calamondins look like little oranges - pretty but they are very sour!
And this past week Truman sent me some marmalade! If I understand correctly he used some calamondins and orange together... MMMM!!! It's delicious!
Truman my mom said to tell you it's the best marmalade she's ever had, and she's a marmalade freak! :D ;)
I'll see if I can find a photo of the tree...
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Calamondins for all! :D
(http://pics.livejournal.com/padpedpladuk/pic/00083e0e)
Here's the tree about a year ago...
(http://pics.livejournal.com/padpedpladuk/pic/00082dxa)
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While I'm on the topic ... here is my lemon tree, and my, um, orange kitty ... :-*
I took these photos on Dec 3 last year, 2006.
(http://pics.livejournal.com/padpedpladuk/pic/00081dfc)
(http://pics.livejournal.com/padpedpladuk/pic/000800bx)
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Truman my mom said to tell you it's the best marmalade she's ever had, and she's a marmalade freak! :D ;)
A marmalade freak who wants to marry Joachim Phoenix. I think I like her!
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Is that the cat that passed? :(
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Yeah, that's my sweetie, Mister Mew. :'(
He had a happy life though. Thanks for thinking of us ... :) :-*
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{{{{{{{{{hugs++++}}}}}}}}}}}}
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My family is also doing the scripture study. We had a good start and we are doing it almost everyday. The book of Mark may be a good start because the first 4 books in the New Testament talks about the Savior's life.