Good idea for a poll. But Phillip, if it's not too late you might want to add an option for agnostics -- those who think we aren't supposed to know the answer.
Ditto. I support this whole heartly.I concur. Like Ennis, we cannot know with certainty how Jack died, and this is part of what makes the story so haunting.
Like Ennis, we cannot know with certainty how Jack died, and this is part of what makes the story so haunting.
Jack died???!!;D
O0
Good idea for a poll. But Phillip, if it's not too late you might want to add an option for agnostics -- those who think we aren't supposed to know the answer.
Ditto. I support this whole heartly.
I concur. Like Ennis, we cannot know with certainty how Jack died, and this is part of what makes the story so haunting.
I too think this poll needs to be ammended to include the fifth choice "We are not supposed to know how Jack died". Two days ago I "wasn't there" but now I am.... helped in part by reading the first four pages of the 79 pages on the Dave Cullen Forum "Jack's Fate".
To paraphrase some of the excellent posters there, I believe that we are not supposed to know how Jack died, we are supposed to be in the same place Ennis is, and to quote from the final line in the story: "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.”
Here is a quote from the post by Carl, on Page 1 of that thread at DC Forum:
While we may think it is important whether Jack was killed in accident or murdered...in the story it only matters that we know no more than Ennis. Otherwise, how can we truly understand his pain? Ennis only knows what is told to him. He can envision many truths, some obviously more ominous than others. But, the only way we, as an audience are going to understand the anguish of this character is to know only as much as he did, and thereby go night after endless night trying to lose the horrible images of our imagination.
While I think a definitive answer isn't necessary to feel the full impact of the tragedy, which is that Jack died because of Ennis' fears (he wouldn't have died at that particular time in whatever way it was he died if Ennis had done what he wanted), I maintain that it was the tire iron. I maintain this because I think the Jimbo/bar scene was intended to foreshadow it. But I also concede that I could very well be wrong.
I agree ednbarby. Except the Jimbo/bar scene also serves to precipitate Jack into marriage.
Re: How Did Jack Die
With his boots on.....
While the movie Lureen had a slight tear on her cheek while talking to Ennis on the phone, the politely cold tone that the actress used for her voice was like the book . And Les said that Lureen lied to Ennis on the phone. But, in the interview, Lee did not say how much of what she said was actually a lie.
Since, in the book at the motel in 1967, Ennis said that in so many words his father-in-law woud pay for him to get lost, it could be that Lureen who took on the persona of how Jack described her father and she divorced Jack and paid him to get lost, too.
Since I know for a fact that people can bury their dead on a family plot and not have to even have the proof that a container supposedly containing a deceased person's ashes actually has them, Jack could have agreed to the divorce if she would help him "Let be, Let be" so that he coulld "quit Ennis" and get on with his life.
Jack was really tired of chasing after Ennis for 16 years and Ennis never making a commitment to their relationship. And we all know that he said so, no matter which source we use for our discussion.
Ennis Del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames. The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft. He gets up, scratching the grey wedge of belly and pubic hair, shuffles to the gas burner, pours leftover coffee in a chipped enamel pan; the flame swathes it in blue. He turns on the tap and urinates in the sink, pulls on his shirt and jeans, his worn boots, stamping the heels against the floor to get them full on. The wind booms down the curved length of the trailer and under its roaring passage he can hear the scratching of fine gravel and sand. It could be bad on the highway with the horse trailer. He has to be packed and away from the place that morning. Again the ranch is on the market and they've shipped out the last of the horses, paid everybody off the day before, the owner saying, "Give em to the real estate shark, I'm out a here," dropping the keys in Ennis's hand. He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.
The stale coffee is boiling up but he catches it before it goes over the side, pours it into a stained cup and blows on the black liquid, lets a panel of the dream slide forward. If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong. The wind strikes the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck, eases, dies, leaves a temporary silence.
"I'm the son of rage and love." Just SPOT ON to describe Jack! Did you find this yourself? (*Bows in admiration*)
I agree ednbarby. Except the Jimbo/bar scene also serves to precipitate Jack into marriage.
I think if we were really supposed to know how he died, we wouldn't need to have this discussion. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad discussion, I'm just saying that I don't think either Annie Proulx or anyone involved with the movie intended for us to know for sure.
I think Jack's death was an accident. But Proulx is ambiguous about it to show Ennis' state of mind. Ennis has no proof whatsoever to think that Jack was indeed killed. It's all in his mind, it's part of his fears and perceptions of life.
Jack could easily be .... bashed to death by Jimbo and his gang of clowns.
I still believe he was murdered but recently I had a dream that he committed suicide. Since Jack is full of life and seem so positive, I thought it was ridiculous that he would take his own life. But could lost of hope driven him to do so? What do you guys think?
Clinical depression can certainly drive one to suicide, and what clinical depression is in my experience is the utter loss of all hope. Doesn't matter how positive, vibrant, and full of life one is - once that sets in, the only thing many believe will end the pain of that loss is death.
My husband had a good pilot friend he played tennis with from time to time. He shot himself to death in his bedroom about a year ago. He was going through a divorce and had some financial problems and issues with a new girlfriend. But by all other accounts, he had a pretty good life, was handsome and athletic and vigorous - all of it. When a mutual friend called to say he had, with the police, found him, I was at first shocked. But then I thought of little things Ed said about him from time to time - "Well, he drinks a lot." (Sound familiar?) And "He says he's been having trouble sleeping lately." I even asked him once if he'd broached the subject with him that he might be depressed and need to see someone. He said he did and he chewed him out for it. "No shrink's telling me there's something wrong with my head. Nothing I can't fix myself with more exercise and sleep." Thank you, Tom Cruise.
Anyway, yes, I think it's possible. I certainly see Jack as reaching a point where he really didn't give a s*** about much anymore. Lureen's saying "He drank a lot" nearly broke my heart in two on actually my second viewing. I don't see him as deliberately, purposefully killing himself, but I do see him as not caring whether he lived or died at some point.
I don't think Jack was depressed.
Recall that he told Ennis he was seeing a woman on the sly and he also told his father that he was going to bring a rancher neighbor with him, build a cabin and help him with the ranch. That rancher was Randall and Jack had to be pretty happy with Randall if he told his father he was gonna bring him home with him.
Jack was unhappy with the way things were with Ennis, but in the end, he was exploring other ways and other people as alternatives to Ennis even if he still loved Ennis. He did love him, but was beginning to see the hopelessness of being with him any longer.
I think suicide was the last thing on Jack's mind. It seemed clear to me, that Jack was looking for someone who could love him more openly and completely than Ennis, he was looking for healthy alternatives to an unhealthy relationship, which is, I'm sad to say, what he had with Ennis in the end.
That's how I saw and read it.
Peace,
Rayn
Clinical depression can certainly drive one to suicide, and what clinical depression is in my experience is the utter loss of all hope. Doesn't matter how positive, vibrant, and full of life one is - once that sets in, the only thing many believe will end the pain of that loss is death.regards your statement, about tom cruise,,,he is a twit...he calls other people glib. he is in a position to do so much harm to people with his stupid remarks. no amount of money or stardom is qualifying him to be a spokesman for anything of a mental healt person..........i couldnt believe he had brooke shields as a guest at his wedding...she is certainly a bigger person than he will ever be...as some one that has lost a beloved family member to suicide, and mental illness, im not sure what the answer is for that problem god knows, if i would have known what to do i would have done that...but that stupid idiot certainly doesnt know what he can do to others that hear what he has to say and acts accordingly.....as to the jack thing, it never occurred to me he may have done that, i felt like he was killed, but that is just my opinion. partly because of ennis's idea, and also the way that lureen sounded like she was telling a story,that had been rehearsed in order to make the truth of it seem acceptable as the story she told.....janice
My husband had a good pilot friend he played tennis with from time to time. He shot himself to death in his bedroom about a year ago. He was going through a divorce and had some financial problems and issues with a new girlfriend. But by all other accounts, he had a pretty good life, was handsome and athletic and vigorous - all of it. When a mutual friend called to say he had, with the police, found him, I was at first shocked. But then I thought of little things Ed said about him from time to time - "Well, he drinks a lot." (Sound familiar?) And "He says he's been having trouble sleeping lately." I even asked him once if he'd broached the subject with him that he might be depressed and need to see someone. He said he did and he chewed him out for it. "No shrink's telling me there's something wrong with my head. Nothing I can't fix myself with more exercise and sleep." Thank you, Tom Cruise.
Anyway, yes, I think it's possible. I certainly see Jack as reaching a point where he really didn't give a s*** about much anymore. Lureen's saying "He drank a lot" nearly broke my heart in two on actually my second viewing. I don't see him as deliberately, purposefully killing himself, but I do see him as not caring whether he lived or died at some point.
Rayn you are 100% right. Jack was not depressed to the point of suicide. Unhappy with the fact he couldn't have Ennis 100% of the time, thats a given.
"He drank alot" Yeah. I can see that. He was trapped in his "good life" in Texas. In good life I mean financially. Plus he had a son too. I almost feel that if he hadn't had gotten married to Lureen, that he'd have eventually moved back to Wyoming to be closer to Ennis.
No doubt that Jack was "happy enough" with Randall. They had been getting together since 1978 right? Thats 5 years together. No wonder Jack mentioned him to his father.
As for that tire? Not an accident. Don't forget, Jack had money to buy new trucks all the time. New trucks mean new tires. New tires don't blow off the rim.
My guess is that Jack did indeed drink alot because he was unhappy that he was finally going to leave Ennis. Jack was also known to be horny enough to look for sex in the wrong places at times. Could Jacks secret have gotten out? If Jack had a few too many drinks and made a pass at the wrong person, a violent homophobic redneck, then sure, that could have led to his attack. And an attacker or attackers in a small town would definately try to cover it up to look like an accident. Lureen was probably pitied in town if people thought her husband was queer. Why not make Jacks death look like an accident to save her from the humiliation of her husband being beat to death as a queer? She may have not known the truth of how he died. Or she she didn't want to know the truth and easily accepted the tire iron story.
-- Most important, from a literary perspective -- the perspective that supports the theme and the point of the story -- it makes more sense that the violence occurred in Ennis' head, rather in the real world. One of the major themes of BBM is that homophobia affects not only bigoted straight people but, often, its own victims, destroying not only lives (Jack's) but souls (Ennis'). Ennis was both gay and homophobic. It's more interesting to show how Ennis is permanently crippled by his culture's attitudes toward homosexuality than to show that people in conservative communities in the 1980s were often, duh, homophobic. Cinematically, the former interpretation also is reflected in the scene with Jack and Jimbo the Clown: are the guys around the pool table really talking about Jack? We're conditioned to think so. But actually, we don't know this, we just assume it based on what we know about bigoted small-town types of the 1970s. Again, it's an illustration of how a closeted gay man in that culture (like Ennis, definitely, and Jack, to some extent) is conditioned to automatically think the worst and to constantly have to worry about what people on the pavement are saying. It only makes sense that AP would have been aiming for the deeper, more complex and interesting depiction.
-- Aside from, arguably, Aguirre and Alma, nobody in the movie ever says anything explicitly homophobic with the huge exception of Ennis. Including Mr. Twist, BTW. So for characters to act on homophobic attitudes is less in keeping with the rest of the movie than for people to act in ways that are ambiguous but, from the perspective of a closeted gay man in 1960-85 America (i.e., Ennis), appear ominous.
There's another hint to the reality of Jack's demise...his origins in the town of Lightning Flat!
It's late August, the time when Jack died under mysterious circumstances.
Why do you think Jack died in August, even in late August?
I rather think it was June/July.
Are we really still at this?!!! LOL
On first viewing, Lureen's story sounds stilted and suspicious, and the tire iron scene wasn't so clearly just in Ennis's head. I suspect the reason that the majority of people in the poll believe the tire iron is because many of us identify with Ennis.
But here's a question: although they were deleted, what was the point of these guys?
[...]
Just imagine for a minute, if this scene were included. Wouldn't it have introduced more doubt to Lureen's story and more credence to Ennis's?
I'd strictly separate the story from the film here. Seems like most folks here are talking about the film.
The Sneering Mechanics scene was placed between Ennis’s meeting with Cassie and Carl in the bus station café and his second post office visit.
Not still, but again. ;D
Great point, Chrissi. (Isn't it great to be able to search the story?)
I'm reminded of one of my favorite IMDb discussions: Ennis's Maledictions with CaseyCornelius. Briefly, there are three:
1) "You probably deserve it" in response to Jack's statement that he feared getting shot by Lureen or "the husband" every time he slips off to see the ranchman's wife.
2) Most importantly, the Mexico response, "All them things I don't know could get you killed if I should come to know them".
3) "Why don't you" (quit me).
I would add 4) "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" at the end of the Lake Scene, just before the dozy embrace.
In my opinion, Ennis psychologically kills Jack. Why? Because Jack has broken their pact that they're not "queer". Notice their last night together, they're talking about their "women", Ennis's Cassie and Jack's rancher's wife. But, Jack ventures the "truth" with "...sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." Awfully close to "I love you".
The closer Jack gets to "queer", the more distressed Ennis gets. Thus, Mexico is the last straw. If Jack is queer, so is Ennis, and he can't stand that.
Ennis is predetermined to believe queer = violent death, because of Earl (and his expectation his father would have come into the motel with the tire iron).
In the story, the sequence goes from: Lureen's call--->believing tire iron--->end of call--->didn't know if it were tire iron or real accident--->OMT mentions the other fella--->now he knew it was the tire iron.
So, as Chrissi points out, all the tire iron references come from Ennis. I think the murder is a projection on his part.
Ang said that Lureen was lying. He says it's better to let the audience work for it.
When asked, Annie would say she doesn't know which way it was. She says we have to finish the story ourselves.
How are we mere mortals to know?
So, I think it's unknowable. And we'll just have to stand it.
When asked, Annie would say she doesn't know which way it was. She says we have to finish the story ourselves.
Here is a photo of the tall barley that grows in Bieseker, Alberta, Canada, where the closing scene looking out Ennis's trailer was filmed:
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j341/LeeRecca/026520Beiseker-Ennis20Trailer20800x600.jpg)