(CNN)
"...resulting from the abuse of prescription medications."
This is a pretty outrageous list of drugs to be found in one's system. If a doctor prescribed him Oxycontin, Vicodin, and all of those various anti-anxiety meds, that's obvious malpractice and he or she should never practice medicine again. If someone was handing him these drugs or he obtained them from a dealer, this is yet another tragedy of drug abuse. A lot of young people have turned to prescription drug abuse instead of the illegal street drugs like cocaine and meth. They assume that prescription drugs are less dangerous and addicting. Big pharma likes people to believe that, but with highly addictive drugs like Oxy and Vicodin, where you need to take progressively more of it to combat developing tolerance, they can be just as deadly as crack cocaine.
This is a pretty outrageous list of drugs to be found in one's system.
I don't understand. Accidental death and abuse of prescription medications??? What does that mean?
Does it just mean that he wasn't using them as prescribed?
They way the report uses the terms "accidental" and "abuse" is a bit confusing, and seems to send some mixed messages.
I don't understand. Accidental death and abuse of prescription medications??? What does that mean?
Does it just mean that he wasn't using them as prescribed?
oxycodone is also not necessarily "Oxycontin." Oxycontin is a high dose, time release buffered tablet whose active ingredient is oxycodone. Oxycodone is also the drug known in the US as Percocet if compounded with acetominophen, Percodan if compounded with aspirin.
that the cause of death was not heroin or cocaine overdose.
I for one am relieved
a) that they were able to determine a cause of death
b) that the cause of death was not heroin or cocaine overdose. If only because the pain and scandal that would arise from it would be far greater than taking too many prescriptions. Also, I may be wrong on this, if there was evidence of cocaine or heroin abuse, such as has been widely rumored about him, I think they would have found evidence of that as a contributing factor in his death. But that is speculation on my part - I know little about heroin or cocaine abuse.
I suspect that there were multiple doctors prescribing the medications, not just one. One of the early reports said that some of the prescriptions were filled in England, and others in the US.
....
Whether Heath was not forthcoming with medications he was receiving or the doctors mis-prescribed them we'll probably never know. Anyway you look at it, it's a tragedy.
Thanks, Leslie. I was thinking of that possibility, too, as I read down this thread.
Jesus H., that combination of meds was a recipe for disaster. :'(
Poor guy. ... :'(
I, too, wish they wouldn't combine the use of accidental and abuse the way they do.
I feel angry at the drug industry, at irresponsible doctors, and just sort of angry at these circumstances in general.
No matter which way you look at it: it's just too much stuff in his system. :(
Poor Heath :'(
(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h243/lnicoll/Maine/0206081ledger1.gif)
there's the possibility of multiple doctors, but also the reality that doctors will often bend the rules (and suspend good judgment) for celebrity patients. But heck, even if I were to go to my doctor and say "doc, Vicodin did nothing for me... can I try something else?" he would most likely comply, naturally assuming I would stop taking the Vicodin. The combination of medications here screams of that scenario. "This one didn't work, that one didn't work... but maybe if I took them together..."
Heath, I swear... :'(
Oh God Leslie, seeing the words, Heath Ledger, and cause of death in the same sentence just breaks my heart. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
So finally we know, it was an accident. What I don,t understand is, and forgive me for being dense, but HOW did all those combined drugs actually kill him? I mean did they cause him to have a heart attack, or just fall asleep and not wake up? Poor Heath. :'( :'( :'( :'(
there's the possibility of multiple doctors, but also the reality that doctors will often bend the rules (and suspend good judgment) for celebrity patients. But heck, even if I were to go to my doctor and say "doc, Vicodin did nothing for me... can I try something else?" he would most likely comply, naturally assuming I would stop taking the Vicodin. The combination of medications here screams of that scenario. "This one didn't work, that one didn't work... but maybe if I took them together..."
In other words--and this will not be popular on this thread at this time--Heath bears at least some responsibility for his own death.When you're exhausted, and you're ill, sometimes you'll try anything... and the fact that all the medications were prescribed gives a false sense of safety.
I was thinking this. ... :(
I guess maybe the combination would bring on cardiac arrest?All of those drugs actually suppress the respiratory system, not to mention numbing certain signals in the brain... such as the ones telling your lungs to breathe. The Restoril I think is a muscle relaxant as well. He just basically halted his bodily functions by putting them all in a kind of coma, I think.
Leslie?
My biggest worry through all of this was the concern that Heath might have been unhappy or depressed in the time leading up to his death. Given the amount of prescribed drugs he had in his possession, I still worry about what led him to feel the need for them... again, I'm just purely worried that he might have been unhappy.
The family's statement that they recently had a nice, long visit with Heath is certainly reassuring in regards to this question.
When you're exhausted, and you're ill, sometimes you'll try anything... and the fact that all the medications were prescribed gives a false sense of safety.
We don't know how much time elapsed between the ingestion of each drug. I wasn't suggesting he downed a handful of every drug all at once.
He was also really ill with pneumonia, according to his co-star Christopher Plummer, and the scenario that seems most plausible to me is that he might have had a high-grade fever and that can make you really feel weird and fuzzy in your head, and because he was alone, he could have woken up and thought that he had to take a pill because it had been a few hours, when in fact it had only been an hour or so.
All of those drugs actually suppress the respiratory system, not to mention numbing certain signals in the brain... such as the ones telling your lungs to breathe. The Restoril I think is a muscle relaxant as well. He just basically halted his bodily functions by putting them all in a kind of coma, I think.
this is all too much.
My biggest worry through all of this was the concern that Heath might have been unhappy or depressed in the time leading up to his death. Given the amount of prescribed drugs he had in his possession, I still worry about what led him to feel the need for them... again, I'm just purely worried that he might have been unhappy.
The family's statement that they recently had a nice, long visit with Heath is certainly reassuring in regards to this question.
So he might just have stopped breathing?
Does anybody know or remember if the initial autopsy report said anything about pneumonia? They must have examined the lungs, but I don't remember reading anything about confirming that he had a respiratory infection at the time he died.
When you're exhausted, and you're ill, sometimes you'll try anything... and the fact that all the medications were prescribed gives a false sense of safety.
So finally we know, it was an accident. What I don,t understand is, and forgive me for being dense, but HOW did all those combined drugs actually kill him? I mean did they cause him to have a heart attack, or just fall asleep and not wake up? Poor Heath. :'( :'( :'( :'(
"Me neither." And it would stand to reason that if he did indeed have a respiratory infection, there would have been strong antibiotics around. An early report said that antibiotics prescribed in England were found, but I guess that was false.
So he might just have stopped breathing?
Yup.
In other words--and this will not be popular on this thread at this time--Heath bears at least some responsibility for his own death.
I was thinking this. ... :(
Good people die from prescription drug issues every day, so I am less interested in finding fault and more interested in finding ways to prevent future tragedies.
None of the drugs were taken in concentrations high enough to be lethal on their own, the report said, but the combination was deadly.
Which is why I wish they would not use the term "abuse." Abuse suggests that he took more than he was supposed to.
A very likely scenario: Heath went to different doctors (which is common for people who travel a lot), told them what he had been taking and said it didn't work for him, so they prescribed something different. The doctors may not have realized that he would keep taking the one he said didn't work anymore, so they didn't advise him about the interactions. So Heath, in his mind, had disclosed what else he was taking... but wasn't told they'd be dangerous to take together, so he assumed--as they were all both prescribed and disclosed--that they were all safe in combination.
This is what I choose to believe.
Many medications work synergistically when combined, occasionally amplifying their potency when combined. But in this case, it is more probable that Heath built up a tolerance for the medications, especially Oxy and Hydrocodone, which means you have to take more of them to get the same effect. Unfortunately, although you may achieve some symptom relief, the physical impact of the medications in their ever-growing dosages or combinations can have a cumulative devastating effect on your body. In this case, it likely depressed his system sufficiently to cause his heart to stop.
A close friend of mine died a few years ago of cancer. During the latter stages, the district nurse would come in on a daily basis to administer painkillers. He didn't have a home supply. I honestly don't think my doctor would prescribe these under any circumstances.
Does anybody know or remember if the initial autopsy report said anything about pneumonia? They must have examined the lungs, but I don't remember reading anything about confirming that he had a respiratory infection at the time he died.Christopher Plummer speculated that Heath had "walking pneumonia" in London; apparently, he was showing signs of respiratory illness while there.
...
Good people die from prescription drug issues every day, so I am less interested in finding fault and more interested in finding ways to prevent future tragedies.
None of the drugs were taken in concentrations high enough to be lethal on their own, the report said, but the combination was deadly.
Which is why I wish they would not use the term "abuse." Abuse suggests that he took more than he was supposed to.
A very likely scenario: Heath went to different doctors (which is common for people who travel a lot), told them what he had been taking and said it didn't work for him, so they prescribed something different. The doctors may not have realized that he would keep taking the one he said didn't work anymore, so they didn't advise him about the interactions. So Heath, in his mind, had disclosed what else he was taking... but wasn't told they'd be dangerous to take together, so he assumed--as they were all both prescribed and disclosed--that they were all safe in combination.
This is what I choose to believe.
He probably believed what all of us would have thought, too. That a young, strong, basically healthy man would not be in any real danger of succumbing to over-medication, especially when the drugs themselves were not seen to be particularly dangerous in themselves.
And once again, it is important to note that none of the drugs found in his system were at a high enough level to indicate deliberate abuse.
Just been seeking solace with my mum on the phone.
She suffers from depression and takes lithium and a variety of other drugs. She also has prescription sleeping pills and can take one at night if required.
She told me that when she first got the prescription, she was having a bad day and got into bed and took one. That is the last she can recall. It turns out however that she got out of bed, went downstairs, had a cup of tea with my Dad and watched 'Ice Road Truckers'. She woke the next morning with no recollection whatsoever of the previous evening, from dinner time onwards.
Needless to say, she went back to the Doctor.
So, I guess I should be comforted. I had hoped that when the results came out, I would be. But I'm not. I guess time heals.
No, this was clear abuse, but perhaps not intentional. It's abusive because no responsible doctor would have prescribed all of those drugs to be taken in combination and he took them all over a short period of time. That's a shocking list of drugs. It's accidental because he did not intentionally end his life.
Now whether he hoarded earlier prescriptions and took them all at once, or just as likely a doctor cumulatively prescribed every one of them over a period of time (but not intended to be taken together), is unknown at this time, and should be investigated.
For those that think he may have been taking his pills irresponsibly and was throwing
caution to the wind. I have this to say. When you take pills every day for whatever reason.
You can sometimes just forget.
And once again, it is important to note that none of the drugs found in his system were at a high enough level to indicate deliberate abuse. Take one of these, two of those, another one of those... curtains. I even read recently of a woman who died because she used a recommended numbing gel to prepare for hair removal treatment... she put it all over her legs and covered them with plastic wrap. It was too much for her system to ingest.
There are times when I have allergy problems and take an antihistamine. Then later on in the day, I get a bad headache, and unthinkingly take a few ibuprofen. I have epilepsy, so I take that at night, also unthinkingly. And then I feel awful and can't sleep, so I might take a couple of Tylenol PM.
So let's tally that up. Antihistamine. Ibuprofen. Anti-seizure drug. Tylenol. Sleep aid. All in one day, innocently taken at the proper dosage level, by one 108-lb woman. I'm probably lucky to be alive.
I am going crazy right now, a lot of the media in Holland 'forget' to put "accidental" before "overdose" in the headlines on the internet. I want to kick something or even better, somebody.
For those that think he may have been taking his pills irresponsibly and was throwing
caution to the wind. I have this to say. When you take pills every day for whatever reason.
You can sometimes just forget. Did I take that already, or was that earlier, or some such
lapse of medicating period. If you are taking those kinds of drugs they also contribute to
the inability to remember. When, if or how long it has been since your last dose. If you do
not just write down the times which few people do. I can see him doing that totally unintentionally. I know from personal experience that any of those drugs taken in conjunction
with a muscle relaxant can be deadly. I almost had it happen to me. I was not overmedicating
and only taking the prescribed dosage. The public at large has no idea how easily this can
happen. The pharmaceuticals and doctors dont want you to really know i believe.
Did I already tell you that I love your posts and that I agree with you on everything you say? :-*
:'( I am going crazy right now, a lot of the media in Holland 'forget' to put "accidental" before "overdose" in the headlines on the internet. I want to kick something or even better, somebody.
I'm sure we'll be seeing more of this as the coverage expands. Even minutes after the announcement, I heard one commentator, it was either on CNN or MSNBC, say that "we still don't know whether he intentionally overdosed on the prescription drugs." >:(
Did I already tell you that I love your posts and that I agree with you on everything you say? :-*
:'( I am going crazy right now, a lot of the media in Holland 'forget' to put "accidental" before "overdose" in the headlines on the internet. I want to kick something or even better, somebody.
I'm sure we'll be seeing more of this as the coverage expands. Even minutes after the announcement, I heard one commentator, it was either on CNN or MSNBC, say that "we still don't know whether he intentionally overdosed on the prescription drugs." >:(
I don't understand. Accidental death and abuse of prescription medications??? What does that mean?
Does it just mean that he wasn't using them as prescribed?
Just heard a commentator interview Jonathan Dienst on MSNBC. He was emphatic that the report found the combination of drugs was the cause of death and that they were not found in high doses. He also made it very clear that no illegal drugs had been found on the scene. When asked about the rolled up $20 bill, he repeated the finding that there was no residue found on it.
So yay, at least one media outlet got it right.
Lets not feel this outcome is good. He still died as a drug abuser. It makes no difference that they were perscribed meds folks.
Lets not feel this outcome is good. He still died as a drug abuser. It makes no difference that they were perscribed meds folks.
Lets not feel this outcome is good. He still died as a drug abuser. It makes no difference that they were perscribed meds folks.
Lets not feel this outcome is good. He still died as a drug abuser. It makes no difference that they were perscribed meds folks.
There's a big difference IMO between being a drug abuser and someone trying desperately to sleep.I think part of the problem here is a semantic one, and that people are misunderstanding one another. I suspect that from a medical professional's perspective, taking a drug for a purpose or to an extent for which it was not intended is seen as abuse, and that the motives are considered, if at all, as secondary in reaching that conclusion. This is how I'm interpreting the presence of the word "abuse" in the report. Essentially, that is suggesting that all those drugs should not have been together in one person at one time, and that a person consciously ingesting all those substances at once or in sequence so that they could act together in a potentially (if unintentionally) lethal way was arguably abusing them.
Is there a report of the actual amounts, or concentrations, of these drugs in his system? I would like someone who knows how to interpret that to tell us their opinion.
My disappointment now is with Heath. He was a very intelligent man, and he surely must have known some of the bare minimum info on those drugs.
Well, as someone who also sometimes takes a combination of different medications on any given day, I suppose I should also call myself a "drug abuser." And if I should be found dead tomorrow from a deadly cocktail of, say, Benadryl, Advil, Tylenol PM and anti-seizure drugs because I had allergy problems which led to a headache which led to the inability to sleep, and I had no choice but to take my seizure drugs... well, I guess my family and friends will just have to accept the characterization that I "abused drugs."
My name is Verona, and I am a junkie.
Heath was young (and thus possibly still in the "I'm immortal" stage), extremely fit and physically courageous ("I can handle this, I'd like to try.").
Is there a report of the actual amounts, or concentrations, of these drugs in his system? I would like someone who knows how to interpret that to tell us their opinion.
If you are not taking the drugs as perscribed you are a drug abuser. If you call your Dr. and ask him what is safe to take you are not. Just taking hand fulls of pills without talking to a Dr first is drug abuse. You have a brain, use it please.
I don't know enough about any of this to be comfortable pointing the finger of blame at anyone for what happened. Things that seemed to be reported as fact two weeks ago, now seem to be in question. I honestly don't know how much of what I even think I know is real.
I do know that with regard to his creativiy, I considered Heath Ledger a force to be reckoned with, and with his passing, I feel we are all much the poorer.
I do know that with regard to his creativiy, I considered Heath Ledger a force to be reckoned with, and with his passing, I feel we are all much the poorer.
If you are not taking the drugs as perscribed you are a drug abuser. If you call your Dr. and ask him what is safe to take you are not. Just taking hand fulls of pills without talking to a Dr first is drug abuse. You have a brain, use it please.
Your right Bruce. At the end of the day, does it really matter who or what is to blame? The fact remains that a young man and a devoted father has died. A young talented man in the prime of his life, who had so much to live for and so much more to do with his life. It was just a tragic accident and no one can do anything about it now. :'(I also don't understand the need to "blame" anyone for it. It's something that happens time and time again, that people just don't know enough about what they're putting in their bodies... they think anything given to them by a doctor is OK to take, without realizing that even grapefruit juice can react badly with what they're taking. I know this, but I am not going to act all superior and accusatory if someone else doesn't.
And are you claiming that Heath did just that? Were you in the room with him when it happened?
And are you claiming that Heath did just that? Were you in the room with him when it happened?No, I am the brainless junkie being referred to, because I sometimes take Benadryl in the morning, Advil during the day and Tylenol PM at night if I'm not feeling well.
Kim Ledger, the actor's father, said the family was humbled by the outpouring of support from fans around the world and asked to be allowed to grieve privately.
"Today's results put an end to speculation, but our son's beautiful spirit and enduring memory will forever remain in our hearts," he said in a statement.
"While no medications were taken in excess, we learned today the combination of doctor-prescribed drugs proved lethal for our boy."
This is a pretty outrageous list of drugs to be found in one's system.
We have a problem in this country where doctors treat mental stress and conditions associated with depression and anxiety by literally throwing drugs at the problem, when study after study shows that talk therapy can be just as effective, or even more so, than prescription drugs. It takes a bigger commitment to talk through issues in your life with a therapist, and the insurance industry considers it more expensive, but it's far less dangerous that just handing over a stack of prescriptions to fill at the local CVS or Walgreens.
This is another shocking shame. This country needs to take action to help inform people about and prevent prescription drug abuse.
Come on people. We are ALL very upset here. Lets not start arguing about who did what, or what or who is to blame. Lets support each other, I think we all need it after the past 2 weeks. :'( :'(
Come on people. We are ALL very upset here. Lets not start arguing about who did what, or what or who is to blame. Lets support each other, I think we all need it after the past 2 weeks. :'( :'(
Lets not feel this outcome is good. He still died as a drug abuser. It makes no difference that they were perscribed meds folks.
I read this on another forum, Kim Ledger's statement:
...<snip>We treasure our beautiful granddaughter Matilda (to our dear Michelle) as well as an unbelievably wonderful network of close friends, forever, around the world. Families rarely experience the uplifting, warm and massive outpouring of grief and support as have we, from every corner of the planet. This has deeply and profoundly touched our hearts and lives. We are eternally grateful....</snip>
I may regret continuing here, because I know we all are hurting, and I don't want my words to cause anyone to feel worse (and I hate having people mad at me), but I am resistant to the word "accidental" here. I DON'T think it was deliberate, but it WAS as a result of his own extreme actions. Not quite completely accidental.
That's just such a heck of a combo to have in one's system at once. I may be really naive, but I am stunned that anyone would take that many serious drugs in a short time span. Most of them I have heard enough about that I would recoil from taking even one of them. To have mixed that many is beyond imagining for me, I would be so paranoid of what they would do.
I'm still too baffled to even think straight. I can't understand why I feel relieved. I guess I'm relieved because, as I thought, it wasn't hard drugs that killed him and he didn't kill himself. On the other hand, his death could have been prevented. That makes me so angry. I don't know at whom.
I DON'T think it was deliberate, but it WAS as a result of his own extreme actions. Not quite completely accidental.
The thought of that toxic cocktail of so many different drugs in his system all at once is just so upsetting to think about.
I agree with Mel. I feel angry at the drug industry, at irresponsible doctors, and just sort of angry at these circumstances in general.
To have mixed that many is beyond imagining for me, I would be so paranoid of what they would do.
And I'm mad as hell about it. >:(
Ask your doctor if being mad as hell is right for you. :-\
I had thought Ambien was somewhere in the mix of media reports, and it would have been interesting to see a non-generic, heavily marketed prescription drug in the mix of this as a way to really open this issue up for Americans. A lot of folks outside of this country may not realize big pharma relentlessly advertises prescription drugs on television. At evening network news can be up to 80% advertising for drugs, marketed by Hollywood stars or through saturation advertising (how many have seen the animated bee with the Zorro-like accent?)
In the last 10 years, lifestyle drugs are being promoted at levels that suggest to people it's perfectly normal to be taking prescription medication of all types, sizes, and dosages, for conditions nobody heard of a decade ago (do we need two expensive pharmaceuticals for "restless leg syndrome" or "urine deficiency"?) Americans are increasingly finding it normal to have a medicine cabinet with a half dozen drugs in it. And for "stress/anxiety," I've seen people who have been on up to 10 different kinds of them, with the leftovers still sitting on the shelf.
So I'm not that surprised by this, especially with some of the doctors catering to important people who basically give them what they want, no argument or questions asked.
And are you claiming that Heath did just that? Were you in the room with him when it happened?
Ya Think? Well lets see. who do you think put the pills in his mouth and who swallowed them?
Is there a report of the actual amounts, or concentrations, of these drugs in his system? I would like someone who knows how to interpret that to tell us their opinion.
Mydisappointment[not the right word, not sure what is, right now] now is with Heath. He was a very intelligent man, and he surely must have known some of the bare minimum info on those drugs. I know that his directors loved him, and felt a special connection with him, but to the film industry, he was a commodity required to make a money-making film, like a camera, or a microphone, or the lumber required to build a set. But even more necessary to keep working, because cameras and lumber are replaceable, and big stars are one of a kind. So a film industry that wants to pull in the money would keep him working, and commodify him. Very short-sighted, but raking money in often is these days.
So I don't really hold the set doctors or any other doctors too responsible here. It was up to Heath to act responsibly for his own safety and well-being.
Heath was young (and thus possibly still in the "I'm immortal" stage), extremely fit and physically courageous ("I can handle this, I'd like to try."). He was highly creative and brimming with ideas he wanted to accomplish (the music videos, managing Grace Woodroofe, preparing to direct The Queen's Gambit, and who knows what, besides the films he was acting in). He was pining for his daughter (and I believe that was agony for him). He was crossing many time zones frequently (which is extremely depleting and confounding). He was without a girlfriend (and I think he's demonstrated that he is happiest when in a relationship).
I can't imagine the stress he lived with. I wish he could have found a balance between that time two years ago when he was self-reportedly just making lunch, washing the lunch dishes, making dinner, taking care of his girls, and the supersonic, hyper-paced life he had been living recently.
The "restless leg" one says that "intense gambling or sexual urges" are a possible side effect. :o
You have to hold the abuser responsible. Also the Abusers Loved ones. This is why Brittney Spears was committed because an abuser has no clue of what they are doing.
Americans are increasingly finding it normal to have a medicine cabinet with a half dozen drugs in it. And for "stress/anxiety," I've seen people who have been on up to 10 different kinds of them, with the leftovers still sitting on the shelf.
Ya Think? Well lets see. who do you think put the pills in his mouth and who swallowed them?
You have to hold the abuser responsible. Also the Abusers Loved ones. This is why Brittney Spears was committed because an abuser has no clue of what they are doing. They just want to get high on what ever they have at hand. When someone like Heath is on set he has access to the company Dr that will perscribe meds for the talent. When you are on multiple movies there are multiple Dr's and that means multiple drugs. This added to maybe his regular Dr's perscriptions can equal a deadly cocktail. The abuser is responsible for his own actions no one else. This is why Brittney Spears had to be committed. It's to bad Heath didn't have people in his inner circle that cared more about him.
I know I'm new here, so I'm sorry if this is out of line...
But an ad was put in the Australian paper from "the men and women of Bettermost.net." There is every possibility Heath's family and friends may come to this site. Do we really want them to read that he was a drug abuser, and that he and they are equally responsible for his death because they didn't care enough about him?
Please. Think of what you're saying, and who might read it. This is the last thing they need.
I know I'm new here, so I'm sorry if this is out of line...
But an ad was put in the Australian paper from "the men and women of Bettermost.net." There is every possibility Heath's family and friends may come to this site. Do we really want them to read that he was a drug abuser, and that he and they are equally responsible for his death because they didn't care enough about him?
Please. Think of what you're saying, and who might read it. This is the last thing they need.
Exactly what I was thinking, thank you Verona...
I am going to whip out some very high level, technical medical jargon here in the hopes that we can just stop all this speculation and hurtful discussion and move ahead.
It was an adverse drug event (ADE) with the tragic consequence that Heath died. That's it. No finger pointing, no blame.
Leslie, RN
It was an adverse drug event (ADE) with the tragic consequence that Heath died. That's it. No finger pointing, no blame.
It was an adverse drug event (ADE) with the tragic consequence that Heath died. That's it. No finger pointing, no blame.
Leslie, RN
And unfortunately, every day, people die of adverse drug events all over the world. On January 22nd it was somebody we loved for what he gave us and for the unique person that he was. Our sadness is what unites us here, not the hurtful speculation.
I am going to whip out some very high level, technical medical jargon here in the hopes that we can just stop all this speculation and hurtful discussion and move ahead.
It was an adverse drug event (ADE) with the tragic consequence that Heath died. That's it. No finger pointing, no blame.
Leslie, RN
I DON'T think it was deliberate, but it was [ ] ...not quite completely accidental.
That's just such a heck of a combo to have in one's system at once. I may be really naive, but I am stunned that anyone would take that many serious drugs in a short time span. Most of them I have heard enough about that I would recoil from taking even one of them. To have mixed that many is beyond imagining for me, I would be so paranoid of what they would do.
He was a very intelligent man, and he surely must have known some of the bare minimum info on those drugs.
High potency and proven dangerous drugs like painkillers obviously need to be reserved for the more serious cases, and not handed over to anyone who asks, which is too often how Oxy and Vicodin get prescribed (and often resold on the street).
Elle, you have formulated exactly what I have been struggling with since I read that report. He *was* a very intelligent person, could hardly be oblivious to the controversies surrounding anti-depressants and their unpleasant effects and risks, the medical industry being accused of "pushing" medicaments at doctors and on to patients, the risk in general of combining types of medication and the need to ask one doctor prescribing you a drug what it'll do in combination with other drugs you're taking etc. etc. etc.
I just can't wrap my mind around taking so many different types of medication during a relatively short timespan....
Perhaps it's just my personal outlook. I'm always extremely cautious about any kind of medication and quiz the doctors trying to prescribe me anything whether it's truly necessary, what the exact effect is, what the possible risks are, and what it will do in combination with other drugs. And trust me - I've had my share of major medical crisis situations in my life so I've been there when it comes to taking medication (though not the types of drugs that Heath used). I've refused medication based on an overall evaluation of the pros and cons the doctors (and other medical information) have presented me with - though of course, never flying against expert opinions if the doctors insisted I *had* to take the drugs to avoid physical injury or worse.
At the end of the day, we are responsible for weighing the benefits and the risks of the drugs we take, make informed decisions.... and I just can't fathom someone as bright and gifted and knowledgable and intelligent and overall healthy as Heath downing all that crap that was in his system. Even if doctors prescribed them to him on various occasions. Even if he was having problems sleeping and feeling down. I simply honestly can't understand it. I'm not criticizing Heath here, I'm just totally baffled and confounded and very, very sad. What happened was a horrible tragedy. I just cant understand how that could happen.
: my best friend has diabetic neuropathy and chronic pain and does not go to a hospital for oxycontin prescriptions - he goes to a doctor.
And there is no indication that Heath has ever been prescribed Oxycontin. I am sorry but your information does not jibe with my knowledge or experience regarding the drug Herr Kaiser. Yes, my friend gets his prescriptions from his doctor, and gets the drugs from a normal chain pharmacy. But discussion of oxycontin is really not relevant here.
At the end of the day, we are responsible for weighing the benefits and the risks of the drugs we take, make informed decisions.... and I just can't fathom someone as bright and gifted and knowledgable and intelligent and overall healthy as Heath downing all that crap that was in his system. Even if doctors prescribed them to him on various occasions. Even if he was having problems sleeping and feeling down. I simply honestly can't understand it. I'm not criticizing Heath here, I'm just totally baffled and confounded and very, very sad. What happened was a horrible tragedy. I just cant understand how that could happen.
One cannot get a prescription for oxycontin very easily at all. Only a few docs who are pain specialists are able to prescribe it and the presciptions are not able to be filled at the pharmacy. Retail pharmacies do not stock it. The patient needs to go to a hospital to get the pills.
misread my post. Fed law allows only some docs to PRESCRIBE but these docs do not have nor are allowed to distribute oxycontin. And retail pharmacies do not stock it either. If your friend is getting directly from the office doc, very unusual.
Oxycodone is the active narcotic compound, oxycontin is a specific long-duration compound of pure oxycodone with a buffering agent in the tablet. And yes, oxycodone is the active ingredient in Percodan (which is oxycodone with aspirin) and Percocet (which is oxycodone with acetominophen.) Following an accident I was prescribed Percocet for 6 months - it produces a zombie-like somnolence. If you look up either oxycodone or hydrocodone on Wiki, both of them are contraindicated to take with any tranquilizers or benzodiazepines because of the chance of respiratory and/or heart failure. He not only took two different narcotics but two different benzodiazepines.
If he were as stressed and sleep deprived as what some have seemed to speculate, it's not surprising to me that someone under those conditions would not be as clear-thinking about the potential conflicts of prescription medications. I have a tendency to ask my doctor a lot of questions about the medications I take and try to learn as much about them as I can, but I am out of the ordinary. Most people make the assumption the doctor is the expert, ask few questions, and in the case of someone who is young, assume that nothing coming out of a pharmacy is likely to actually kill you. We, not suffering from what Heath apparently was, are in a far better position to understand things he might not, and considering there was no close confidant there living with him, it's probably hard for someone else to notice the potential danger or stop someone from taking such a wide array of medications all at once.
I took a Xanax tablet once just a day or so before my mother died. Coupled with all of the stress of that, when I added a single Xanax tablet into the mix, I was a complete zombie. I wouldn't have thought clearly enough to remember taking any medications, much less worry about what effects they might have.
Hydrocodone for me, which I had a prescription for after my wrist was broken and because of a foot issue, has the opposite impact on me. I get about two hours of euphoria from it and then back to my normal self, along with the pain management benefits of course. But this came after being on a dose for two weeks. In the beginning, I was sleepy. That is the tolerance and dependency risk with Hydrocodone. I am fully aware of its side effect on me, and recognize this is not something I should aspire to experience. If I had the attitude of wanting the euphoria effect each time, I'd be taking progressively larger doses to maintain an equal level of the effect, which is what gets some people into trouble. The same development of tolerance occurs with the pain management aspects of the medication, so people start popping handfuls to achieve relief, especially if they don't understand this vicious circle.
This has been a very upsetting day. I think most of us were really counting on hearing this news to ease our anxieties and to put the fact of Heath's death behind us, and for me, all it has done is stir up all of the grief and feelings of loss and futility all over again.Yes, for me too...how sad that this was such a preventable death. I'm also reflecting on what a miracle Heath was, and what beauty he leaves behind him.
it wouldn't make a difference if he had died of anything other than prescribed meds....at the end of the day - Heath is still gone - and our speculating and arguing is not going to change this. However as people have said, we can learn from this.
IMO, the point is - there is a family out there who is grieving the loss of a son, father, brother...
in truth we'll never know.. we can only believe."There was some open space between what he knew and what he wanted to believe, but there was nothing to be done about it, and if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it."
I think this depends on the region of the country, Kaiser. Up here, any local CVS will fill an Oxycontin prescription no questions asked. When my mom had to have the methadone, we had to fill that at the hospital, however.
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he wanted to believe, but there was nothing to be done about it, and if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it."
God bless you, Heath.
Maybe you are right, it's could be regional but I thought all FDA rules were national.
The unfortunate part is that you, me and just about anyone can get any or all of the meds that were found in his bloodstream from online sources sans written prescription.
I know I'm new here, so I'm sorry if this is out of line...
But an ad was put in the Australian paper from "the men and women of Bettermost.net." There is every possibility Heath's family and friends may come to this site. Do we really want them to read that he was a drug abuser, and that he and they are equally responsible for his death because they didn't care enough about him?
Please. Think of what you're saying, and who might read it. This is the last thing they need.
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he wanted to believe, but there was nothing to be done about it, and if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it."
God bless you, Heath.
Keith Olbermann tonight also reported that a federal investigation is underway to determine how he ended up with so many prescriptions, and the NYPD will be involved to determine if a NYC doctor prescribed them, and exactly what pharmacy handed them over. The first cheap shot on the latest developments comes from the always-deranged Glenn Beck:Three of them were from England.
"New developments on the Heath Ledger story today. Apparently his cause of death was taking everything that was behind the pharmacy counter at Walgreens."
Three of them were from England.
As for Glenn Beck and the others, it's pure, unadulterated homophobia. They would NOT be reacting this way had Heath not been in BBM. Funny, they didn't treat Rush like this... and he WAS an addict buying drugs on the black market!
Verona!! you stop that! Rush is a Conservative!! you know they don't do bad things!!! and besides...GAWD has forgiven him!You're a girl after my own heart! :-*
and besides...CLINTON!!
(when you are Rush and anyone questions you all you have to do is say the "c" word and all is forgotten)
;) ;) ;)
As for Glenn Beck and the others, it's pure, unadulterated homophobia. They would NOT be reacting this way had Heath not been in BBM. Funny, they didn't treat Rush like this... and he WAS an addict buying drugs on the black market!
Before I forget, let me tell you I am thrilled to see you as a part of our community, Verona. You've already blasted past the 100 message mark!
I think most adults have several medical practitioners, don't they? Geez, my oral surgeon gave me Vicodin. My regular doctor had no idea, and I never gave it a second thought. Don't people get that? At that exact time, you would have found Vicodin, Effexor, antibiotics and my anti-seizure drugs in my medicine cabinet, prescribed by four different doctors, none of whom knew the other had prescribed the drugs. And there was absolutely nothing sinister going on... one was from my dentist, one from my oral surgeon, one from a neurologist, and one from my regular doctor. Happens all the time. Who knows how that would have looked if I'd died?
Experts said the combination of sedatives and the other medicines likely combined to suppress his brain function and his breathing.
That's what I figured. Your brain needs to tell your lungs to breathe... if you're numbing out those signals, and your respiratory system is also being suppressed...
:-\
I just found this on google news, so apologies if it,s already been posted. There is a beautiful picture of Heath too. :'( :'( :'(
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2008/02/07/2008-02-07_rx_drug_cocktail_accident_killed_heath_l-1.html
I just found this on google news, so apologies if it,s already been posted. There is a beautiful picture of Heath too. :'( :'( :'(
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2008/02/07/2008-02-07_rx_drug_cocktail_accident_killed_heath_l-1.html
I think that's what's good about the Dutch system. Here, the GP/family doctor is the ONLY doctor who can prescribe medicines. So if a neurologist says that I should take codeine, I take that advice to my GP and ask him if I can take this (taking in mind the other medicines I am taking). We also never get more than 30 and no refills.
Thank you, Souxi. The message from Heath's family (to the right) was nice to read also. Not from my own experience, but from family and friends -- I know that losing a child is the hardest thing anyone can go through. That was nice of them to let us know that they'd spent that wonderful 2 weeks with Heath during Christmas.
This is an article/blog entry made by the journalist that Heath called apparently to leave his message of thanks for being left alone during his visit to Perth.
http://blogs.thewest.com.au/entertainment/mark-naglazas-does-perth-deserve-a-public-memorial-service-for-heath-ledger/ (http://blogs.thewest.com.au/entertainment/mark-naglazas-does-perth-deserve-a-public-memorial-service-for-heath-ledger/)
It seems that there are people in Perth who are puzzled by the fact that there were two services held in LA for the celebrities and that his hometown of Perth will, at this point not have an opportunity to say goodbye to Heath because his family will keep the funeral private.
:-\
However, as others have said, I'm not sure who would prescribe such strong painkillers as a sleep aid, when there are so many actual medicines for insomnia that work. Had Heath been injured previously? Maybe those were just leftovers from an earlier medical treatment and he recalled that they would knock you out, so he tried them.
Well,here in Spain news don't arrive so soon and perhaps, a little wrong; so,excuse me if I say something that can be offend someone..."Accidental overdose"...what does this mean?.Nobody takes an overdose of the pills a real doctor has prescribe him or her; Heath was intelligent enough as to bear in mind the prescriptions doctor gave him.I can't imagine he took a lot of pills more than would be advisable in order to calm a pain or sleep better,if the initial dose didn't already have an effect on him.Maybe we feel more relieved if we believe this,or better aid,if we know for sure he didn't do it on purpose;but the real thing is that he felt awful,alone and depressed since his breakup...I'm not telling anything "between the lines",but it seems a little strange to me.
However,the only and real point of all this is that a life full with youth,sensibility and beauty has been cut.I'm feeling devastated again,as I wasn't since the first news about his death,Poor Heath¡;now you can sleep...(http://entimg.msn.com/i/search/188/HeathLedger_3_Retna_188.jpg)
accidental overdose means that you take two instead of the one that is prescribed, or you take sleeping pills at the same time you take Nyquil, and the combination effect of these will kill you. What seems to make the most sense is that Heath took a pain killer and a tranquilizer and did not get to sleep, and a few hours later tried a different combination, and then took the over the counter sleep medicine. Some of those drugs stay in the bloodstream for two days or more. Changing drugs before the first type has cleared the system can cause disaster.
Yes,yes,I understood what the phrase means by the meaning of the words... :) but what I don't understand is that Heath could take more pills than advisable or prescribed by his own initiative,it was not his style...I don't know if this makes sense,sorry.But for me there's only two explanations:or he did it intentionally-I´m sorry,but for me it doesn't make him a worse person...-or the progressive accumulation of substances in his organism was what became "a clockwork bomb" in it...Don't hate me,please,but it's what I feel.from the report and his dad's statement, he did not take "more" of any one drug than was prescribed... he took a few different ones, at small doses, that just didn't mix well together. He most likely did not realize that each one was still in his system, because he did not "feel" them. He was also exhausted and sick, from all accounts.
or the progressive accumulation of substances in his organism was what became "a clockwork bomb"
This is the first time I've ventured in to the Heath Grieving forum and I don't really feel ready to be here now, so I'm about to leave again. I had an idea I shared via PM with Pete last night and maybe I'm grasping at straws, but I wonder if Heath could have had an undiagnosed condition like sleep apnea?
My logic is that he reportedly was having problems sleeping. When you have sleep apnea, even if you do sleep, you never feel rested because you wake up throughout the night often without realizing it. I don't believe sleep apnea can be diagnosed without spending the night in a sleep clinic nor identified via autopsy.
What I heard was that Heath suffered with chronic insomnia not sleep apnea. I think it is a different thing, but like I said I'm no doctor so if anyone has better information please post it.
Sleep apnea is where you stop breathing while you are asleep.
Yes,yes,I understood what the phrase means by the meaning of the words... :) but what I don't understand is that Heath could take more pills than advisable or prescribed by his own initiative,it was not his style...I don't know if this makes sense,sorry.But for me there's only two explanations:or he did it intentionally-I´m sorry,but for me it doesn't make him a worse person...-or the progressive accumulation of substances in his organism was what became "a clockwork bomb" in it...Don't hate me,please,but it's what I feel.
Its really quite simple. Heath had a drug abuse problem. It matters not if the drugs are illeagle or perscriptions from many Dr's. An "accidental" over dose is just a nicer kinder way of putting it across to the public. I'm sure many of you have multiple bottles of pills in your home right? Would you knowingly take more than is perscribed on the bottles or do so without consulting your Dr. first? You see many drug abusers will grab what ever they have at hand to try to get high no matter if its perscriptions or illegal drugs, glue whatever. Was he intending to kill himself most likely not, was he trying to get high? probably so, Was the death "accidental" as Heaths father states most likely yes. did they tell the whole truth most likely no because he knew what he was doing when he took the pills. So the term "accidental" is a big stretch for me in this case. I'm sure this is why Michelle Williams left him, she knew he had a drug/substance problem and didn't want the baby around or getting into all of his crap.
Its really quite simple. Heath had a drug abuse problem. It matters not if the drugs are illeagle or perscriptions from many Dr's. An "accidental" over dose is just a nicer kinder way of putting it across to the public. I'm sure many of you have multiple bottles of pills in your home right? Would you knowingly take more than is perscribed on the bottles or do so without consulting your Dr. first? You see many drug abusers will grab what ever they have at hand to try to get high no matter if its perscriptions or illegal drugs, glue whatever. Was he intending to kill himself most likely not, was he trying to get high? probably so, Was the death "accidental" as Heaths father states most likely yes. did they tell the whole truth most likely no because he knew what he was doing when he took the pills. So the term "accidental" is a big stretch for me in this case. I'm sure this is why Michelle Williams left him, she knew he had a drug/substance problem and didn't want the baby around or getting into all of his crap.
Well, none of us will ever know for sure whether Heath had a substance abuse problem. Obviously he had some kind of problem but we don't know if besides his sleeping troubles, he had a disease or was injured. The press does not know it all even though it seems like it does. And Michelle could have left him for a wide range of reasons. Considering she actually left him. Maybe they agreed to a temporal separation. Who the hell knows. They never discussed the reason for their break up with the press so no one knows what happened except Michelle and Heath.
The thing is we don't always get to know the truth about the celebs. So it is best if we stop speculating. There's no point in trying to make each other agree with our ideas, because it is impossible. My 2 cents.
Its really quite simple. Heath had a drug abuse problem. It matters not if the drugs are illeagle or perscriptions from many Dr's. An "accidental" over dose is just a nicer kinder way of putting it across to the public. I'm sure many of you have multiple bottles of pills in your home right? Would you knowingly take more than is perscribed on the bottles or do so without consulting your Dr. first? You see many drug abusers will grab what ever they have at hand to try to get high no matter if its perscriptions or illegal drugs, glue whatever. Was he intending to kill himself most likely not, was he trying to get high? probably so, Was the death "accidental" as Heaths father states most likely yes. did they tell the whole truth most likely no because he knew what he was doing when he took the pills. So the term "accidental" is a big stretch for me in this case. I'm sure this is why Michelle Williams left him, she knew he had a drug/substance problem and didn't want the baby around or getting into all of his crap.
abuser - is the medical term - in truth we'll never know.. we can only believe.
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he wanted to believe, but there was nothing to be done about it, and if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it."
God bless you, Heath.
Kelda,
Perhaps this will reassure you. Cetirizine is not a "typical" antihistamine, in that it is non drowsy and does not work in the same depressive manner as early generation antihistamines. I have taken cetirizine and its more powerful cousin, levocetirizine, when I was in Europe. Cetirizine as part of a newer generation of safer asthma drugs, is considered safe enough to use with infants. If you want a "better" effect, however, you may wish to ask your doctor for levocetirizine which I believe in Britain may be marketed as Xysal or Xusal or Zysal. And I feel sorry for your struggling with asthma! I did too for several years before I found my gluten intolerance and it made my symptoms go away!
I was glad to finally hear the results of the toxocology tests. The fact that it was ruled as an accidental overdose should put to rest all the speculation and sensationalist media attentiion, and hopefully, as per Heath's father's wishes, allow the family to deal with their grief in private. I'm hoping that Heath's parents and Michelle and Matilda, along with Jake, will be able to give Heath the peaceful, private, and dignified burial he so deserves.
It seems that Heath and Michelle and little Matilda Rose had for the most part slipped under the radar of the disgustiing paparazzi (whose activities should be deemed as dangerous and totally illegal, in my humble opinion), only to be front and center during such a tragic and emotionally difficult time. It seems that the paparazzi and tabloid media were making up for lost time. This is why I am so disgusted with this kind of journalism.
At any rate, I hope that all of those who knew and loved Heath, will eventually come to terms with their loss, and remember with fondness the supremely talented, loving and kind hearted person that he was.
May you rest in peace Heath!
THE WINGS
Its really quite simple. Heath had a drug abuse problem. It matters not if the drugs are illeagle or perscriptions from many Dr's. An "accidental" over dose is just a nicer kinder way of putting it across to the public. I'm sure many of you have multiple bottles of pills in your home right? Would you knowingly take more than is perscribed on the bottles or do so without consulting your Dr. first? You see many drug abusers will grab what ever they have at hand to try to get high no matter if its perscriptions or illegal drugs, glue whatever. Was he intending to kill himself most likely not, was he trying to get high? probably so, Was the death "accidental" as Heaths father states most likely yes. did they tell the whole truth most likely no because he knew what he was doing when he took the pills. So the term "accidental" is a big stretch for me in this case. I'm sure this is why Michelle Williams left him, she knew he had a drug/substance problem and didn't want the baby around or getting into all of his crap.
Ross as you can see, we are finding your hurtful coments about Heath offensive. The man isn,t even buried yet for heavens sake, show some respect. That,s an awful thing to say. >:(
Its really quite simple. Heath had a drug abuse problem. It matters not if the drugs are illeagle or perscriptions from many Dr's. An "accidental" over dose is just a nicer kinder way of putting it across to the public. I'm sure many of you have multiple bottles of pills in your home right? Would you knowingly take more than is perscribed on the bottles or do so without consulting your Dr. first? You see many drug abusers will grab what ever they have at hand to try to get high no matter if its perscriptions or illegal drugs, glue whatever. Was he intending to kill himself most likely not, was he trying to get high? probably so, Was the death "accidental" as Heaths father states most likely yes. did they tell the whole truth most likely no because he knew what he was doing when he took the pills. So the term "accidental" is a big stretch for me in this case. I'm sure this is why Michelle Williams left him, she knew he had a drug/substance problem and didn't want the baby around or getting into all of his crap.
Ross - as many of us have just said we are beginning to realise we've done almost exactly the same thing as Heath - we were just lucky.
Janice & Jack --> your comments. Bravo.
I'll bet if he could speak out today he'd say something like "I would have never thought what I took would do me in". He desperately wanted to get rest and sleep; that's a pity. He was a good man and at worst, unwittingly made a serious mistake. I wouldn't label him with anything less.
Mark it on the calendar...a statement from Herr Kaiser I actually agree with.
If a tree falls on your parked car, it's an accident; if you are driving your car and hit a tree because you answer you cell phone, it's still an accident.
I don't see, RossInIllinois, your point at trying to define and redefine "accidental" and confuse the point, leaving a cloud over Heath himself. "Nicer and kinder" than what? If a tree falls on your parked car, it's an accident; if you are driving your car and hit a tree because you answer you cell phone, it's still an accident.
I also don't understand the point about how people take medication. You may well be a perfect direction follower and can reach out to your doc in a moments notice if you have a question, but most people are not like this. Why do you think those little plastic boxes with days and numbers on them were invented? because most people forget when and how their meds are to be taken and lose track.
I fortunately have never been on anything other than aspirin for a headache here and there, but I have seen how meds work with people.
Even if Heath wasn't confused about when he last took the dose that should have lasted 8 hours or whatever and took them knowing they were over the prescribed amount, do you think it would have been the first time? you yourself call him an abuser; so he probably felt his body had a toleration it did not. That is not, imo, a reason to defame him, it's an honest and understandable mistake.
We all tend to suffer from a need for instant gratification. Got a headache, take a pill, and it should go away in 2 minutes. Can't sleep, take a pill, and cruise off to never never land in 2 minutes. When the medicinal aids do not give the instantaneous relief or desired effect, lots of people take more. I know many people who double the label instructions for tylenol or advil on a regular basis. Same with vitamins which is now becoming a bigger concern that they don't get flushed out harmlessly as once was believed.
even with dangerous pesticides. I know first hand that if a label instructions say one tablespoon per gallon of water, many, many people will double or triple it or more to 'make sure it works'.
so, I suspect Heath, having been accustomed to possibly over doing recreational booze and drugs thought nothing of taking an extra pill or two and thought nothing of combining the meds. I'll bet if he could speak out today he'd say something like "I would have never thought what I took would do me in". He desperately wanted to get rest and sleep; that's a pity. He was a good man and at worst, unwittingly made a serious mistake. I wouldn't label him with anything less.
"This is not rock star wretched excess," said Cindy Kuhn, a pharmacology professor at Duke University. "This is a situation that could happen to plenty of people with prescriptions for these kind of drugs."
Kuhn said some of the drugs are long-lasting and Ledger could have taken them over a period of several days. The medical examiner's office wouldn't say what concentrations of each drug were found in Ledger's blood.
I'll just add, if it is at all useful:
22 months ago, I had a stroke. At least one month prior I knew I was ill, and for more than two weeks prior I was under the care of a doctor (I will also say, obviously, this person is no longer my doctor).
In any case. For several days before my stroke, when I first thought I had a bad flu, and my then doctor finally decided I had plurisy (...no comment...) I was actually in pain, and I was taking two doctor prescribed medications (only): Hydrocodone Bitartrate (every four hours) and Hydrocodone Acetaminophen (every eight hours). Be aware: I was a person who normally hated to take even a baby aspirin. A nice cup of tea was my usual--anyway. Now I take five prescribed medications a day. Whatever. You get the idea.
So. I have my stroke. I am found a few hours later, and I taken to the hospital in an ambulance; my lips was blue and the paramedical people did what they were supposed to do, and I survived. (Thank you, paramedical people.) But:
Very early in the wee hours of the next day, a doctor (who later became a friend) came to my bed (I was still in the ER) and asked one of my friends watching over me (yes, the powers-that-be let two friends, one at a time, into the ER--I was in BAD shape) to come outside and talk. The reason? After my blood workup, the doctors (who knew me from Adam, meaning not at all) decided I was a drug addict. Dire as the situation was, my friend laughed. No, I was no drug addict.
I had been taking exactly the medications prescribed by a single physician. No more and no less.
And Heath can no longer speak in his own defense.
Anyway. For whatever it's worth.
Thank you, Leslie.
(Hugs Leslie)
;D
Shit...I better get a drink.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=371144
I found this article quite upsetting
I knew about that article and was secretly hoping no one would post it.
There's always some columnist who will deliberately write something provocative like that to get a rise out of people and attain some sort of specious notoriety from the outraged replies.
I don't see, RossInIllinois, your point at trying to define and redefine "accidental" and confuse the point, leaving a cloud over Heath himself. "Nicer and kinder" than what? If a tree falls on your parked car, it's an accident; if you are driving your car and hit a tree because you answer you cell phone, it's still an accident.
I also don't understand the point about how people take medication. You may well be a perfect direction follower and can reach out to your doc in a moments notice if you have a question, but most people are not like this. Why do you think those little plastic boxes with days and numbers on them were invented? because most people forget when and how their meds are to be taken and lose track.
I fortunately have never been on anything other than aspirin for a headache here and there, but I have seen how meds work with people.
Even if Heath wasn't confused about when he last took the dose that should have lasted 8 hours or whatever and took them knowing they were over the prescribed amount, do you think it would have been the first time? you yourself call him an abuser; so he probably felt his body had a toleration it did not. That is not, imo, a reason to defame him, it's an honest and understandable mistake.
We all tend to suffer from a need for instant gratification. Got a headache, take a pill, and it should go away in 2 minutes. Can't sleep, take a pill, and cruise off to never never land in 2 minutes. When the medicinal aids do not give the instantaneous relief or desired effect, lots of people take more. I know many people who double the label instructions for tylenol or advil on a regular basis. Same with vitamins which is now becoming a bigger concern that they don't get flushed out harmlessly as once was believed.
even with dangerous pesticides. I know first hand that if a label instructions say one tablespoon per gallon of water, many, many people will double or triple it or more to 'make sure it works'.
so, I suspect Heath, having been accustomed to possibly over doing recreational booze and drugs thought nothing of taking an extra pill or two and thought nothing of combining the meds. I'll bet if he could speak out today he'd say something like "I would have never thought what I took would do me in". He desperately wanted to get rest and sleep; that's a pity. He was a good man and at worst, unwittingly made a serious mistake. I wouldn't label him with anything less.
So then if you take more pills than stated on Rx bottles its an accident when you can read and your an adult? I call that deliberate. If you drive that car you mention above right smack into a tree on purpose to kill yourself is that called an accedent? or deliberate?
Well I guess my "reality" is quite different than yours. However it still does not mean im wrong.
If you think that's upsetting, beware -- here's the original NY Post article it's referring to. I saw the women on The View talking about it this morning with disgust, and wondered where they'd seen it. They just referred to seeing it in "the paper," but didn't say which one.
what does she care if his close friends and family have a less happy or fulfilling life because he's gone? At best I think this could be called a rant. There are others also (even here) who are delighting in their self righteous dissection of his poor judgement.
At what point do you feel people have to be held accountable for there own actions? Accidents do happen yes, but people must also be held accountable for what they do to make them happen as well.
Well said, Chris, Bruce and Mika.
OK, Ross, so go ahead and hold him accountable. How exactly do you suggest doing this? Let's see, he's already dead -- what further penalties do you consider to be in order?
Ross, I'm not sure you're understanding what people are saying here. The point is that Heath is dead, it's tragic, he was young and talented and had a daughter and long life ahead of him. People are grieving, and whether or not we know -- or think we know -- exactly how it happened is beside the point.
Well I guess my "reality" is quite different than yours. However it still does not mean im wrong.
The cause for Heath Ledger's death is not and should not be viewed as a reflection of his life. They are separate phenomena, each one dependant on many other causes and conditions. His death was not in and of itself inherently bad or good. It is simply an event. We make the event bad or good when we apply our afflictive emotions to the phenomena; The same can be said of his life. He (like all of us) did (do) not exist independently. There is an interconnectivity that must be acknowledged in order to fight the ignorance that causes our afflictive emotions to create feelings of anger, hatred, lust, intolerance...etc.
We have no more a right to be disappointed in the fact that he died or the manner in which he died than we do the death of the rose. When we view these events ( and our lives even) as dependant arisings, then we can see that our various pains and emotional sufferings are caused by our own ignorant view of how we all exist in this world.
The cause for Heath Ledger's death is not and should not be viewed as a reflection of his life. They are separate phenomena, each one dependant on many other causes and conditions. His death was not in and of itself inherently bad or good. It is simply an event. We make the event bad or good when we apply our afflictive emotions to the phenomena; The same can be said of his life. He (like all of us) did (do) not exist independently. There is an interconnectivity that must be acknowledged in order to fight the ignorance that causes our afflictive emotions to create feelings of anger, hatred, lust, intolerance...etc.
We have no more a right to be disappointed in the fact that he died or the manner in which he died than we do the death of the rose. When we view these events ( and our lives even) as dependant arisings, then we can see that our various pains and emotional sufferings are caused by our own ignorant view of how we all exist in this world.
There's no way to make sense of this. No way to end an appreciation like this on an up note when the news is so sad. If there's something positive to be said, it's that the best work Ledger left behind will last forever, and the rest is already forgotten.
Wow, what an amazingly insightful post. Thank you so much Soluki... Welcome to Bettermost...I concur...these are very wise words.
On my local news yesterday morning, when they did the "In the Papers" segment and held up the Post to show another article, and I saw that Andrea Peyser article in the corner. I put these things together in my head. NY Post. Andrea Peyser. Celebrity death. Those three factors, both alone and in tandem, said to me "IGNORE."
Which is exactly what I now intend to do here. If I wanted to read this kind of crap, I'd go back to the imdb board. Some people, like Ms. Peyser and her ilk, think cynicism about celebrities makes them look cool, smart and in-the-know, and the schadenfreude they display over the death over a decent, talented young man is sickening. For any happy, well-adjusted person, there is no glee or satisfaction over another person's unhappiness/death. But for others, it's the only glee and satisfaction they know how to derive from life. It's how they can finally feel superior to someone they previously considered superior to themselves. "Hahaha, well Mr. Handsome, Famous, Talented Movie Star wasn't so perfect after all, was he? HAHAHA, gotcha!! Well at least I'm still alive, sucker! Now maybe you'll all see that I'm just as good as these celebrities... even better!! Pick me, not them!!"
Sad. Pathetic and sad.
On my local news yesterday morning, when they did the "In the Papers" segment and held up the Post to show another article, and I saw that Andrea Peyser article in the corner. I put these things together in my head. NY Post. Andrea Peyser. Celebrity death. Those three factors, both alone and in tandem, said to me "IGNORE."
Which is exactly what I now intend to do here. If I wanted to read this kind of crap, I'd go back to the imdb board. Some people, like Ms. Peyser and her ilk, think cynicism about celebrities makes them look cool, smart and in-the-know, and the schadenfreude they display over the death over a decent, talented young man is sickening. For any happy, well-adjusted person, there is no glee or satisfaction over another person's unhappiness/death. But for others, it's the only glee and satisfaction they know how to derive from life. It's how they can finally feel superior to someone they previously considered superior to themselves. "Hahaha, well Mr. Handsome, Famous, Talented Movie Star wasn't so perfect after all, was he? HAHAHA, gotcha!! Well at least I'm still alive, sucker! Now maybe you'll all see that I'm just as good as these celebrities... even better!! Pick me, not them!!"
Sad. Pathetic and sad.
Well said, Chris, Bruce and Mika.
OK, Ross, so go ahead and hold him accountable. How exactly do you suggest doing this? Let's see, he's already dead -- what further penalties do you consider to be in order?
Ross, I'm not sure you're understanding what people are saying here. The point is that Heath is dead, it's tragic, he was young and talented and had a daughter and long life ahead of him. People are grieving, and whether or not we know -- or think we know -- exactly how it happened is beside the point.
I don't see, RossInIllinois, your point at trying to define and redefine "accidental" and confuse the point, leaving a cloud over Heath himself. "Nicer and kinder" than what? If a tree falls on your parked car, it's an accident; if you are driving your car and hit a tree because you answer you cell phone, it's still an accident.
I also don't understand the point about how people take medication. You may well be a perfect direction follower and can reach out to your doc in a moments notice if you have a question, but most people are not like this. Why do you think those little plastic boxes with days and numbers on them were invented? because most people forget when and how their meds are to be taken and lose track.
I fortunately have never been on anything other than aspirin for a headache here and there, but I have seen how meds work with people.
Even if Heath wasn't confused about when he last took the dose that should have lasted 8 hours or whatever and took them knowing they were over the prescribed amount, do you think it would have been the first time? you yourself call him an abuser; so he probably felt his body had a toleration it did not. That is not, imo, a reason to defame him, it's an honest and understandable mistake.
We all tend to suffer from a need for instant gratification. Got a headache, take a pill, and it should go away in 2 minutes. Can't sleep, take a pill, and cruise off to never never land in 2 minutes. When the medicinal aids do not give the instantaneous relief or desired effect, lots of people take more. I know many people who double the label instructions for tylenol or advil on a regular basis. Same with vitamins which is now becoming a bigger concern that they don't get flushed out harmlessly as once was believed.
even with dangerous pesticides. I know first hand that if a label instructions say one tablespoon per gallon of water, many, many people will double or triple it or more to 'make sure it works'.
so, I suspect Heath, having been accustomed to possibly over doing recreational booze and drugs thought nothing of taking an extra pill or two and thought nothing of combining the meds. I'll bet if he could speak out today he'd say something like "I would have never thought what I took would do me in". He desperately wanted to get rest and sleep; that's a pity. He was a good man and at worst, unwittingly made a serious mistake. I wouldn't label him with anything less.
The cause for Heath Ledger's death is not and should not be viewed as a reflection of his life. They are separate phenomena, each one dependant on many other causes and conditions. His death was not in and of itself inherently bad or good. It is simply an event. We make the event bad or good when we apply our afflictive emotions to the phenomena; The same can be said of his life. He (like all of us) did (do) not exist independently. There is an interconnectivity that must be acknowledged in order to fight the ignorance that causes our afflictive emotions to create feelings of anger, hatred, lust, intolerance...etc.
We have no more a right to be disappointed in the fact that he died or the manner in which he died than we do the death of the rose. When we view these events ( and our lives even) as dependant arisings, then we can see that our various pains and emotional sufferings are caused by our own ignorant view of how we all exist in this world.
Ross your lack of compassion and respect is staggering. And I've read that link and yes it does have a lot to say, a lot of crap. I'm ignoring you from now on. I find your comments extreemly disrespectful.
So then if you take a grossly higher amount of pills than stated on Rx bottles its an accident when you can read and your an adult? I call that deliberate. If you drive that car you mention above right smack into a tree on purpose and kill yourself doing so is that called an accident? or deliberate? At what point do you feel people have to be held accountable for there own actions? Accidents do happen yes, but people must also be held accountable for what they do to make them happen as well.
Ok Ross. You and i are friends. I know how you feel about thiis issue. We have
discussed it at length. You have stated it at length..Now every one else knows as well.
It is time for you to let it go.
Having said that I think the same thing is true for everyone else. We have all stated
our opinions on the subject of Heaths death. The cause or the non causes ad infinitum.
I think it is time to end that as well.
Everyone knows everyone elses opinion. Not one person that has an opinion is going
'to change it at this point. No one is going to make a point that has not been made previously. Furthermore not every ones extra comment needs to be counter debated either.......It is
now becoming a personal attack upon a person attack from an opinion. Please i beg of all
of you just STOP IT...STOP IT. This is no way for grown people, let alone fans and admirers
of Heath to discuss him. If you don't like him please keep your opinions to yourself, and
if you do please don't continue to drag him thru the mire and muck of speculation and
fabrication. All that is know by us or ever will be known by us, for that matter has already been presented. Please stop..........just let it go. from all directions, just let it go....................................................................please this is causing unnecessary hurt to all parties involved..janice
Verona,
You write that "if I want to read this kind of crap, I'd go back to the idmb board". In defense of that board - I've been a contributing member for the last two years - I'd like people here to know that none of "this sort of crap" has been posted on that board. The only borad you can find "this sort of crap" is this one!