You're right, Artiste, that we don't really see Easter in BBM. We get Thanksgiving instead. A lot of folks smarter than me have provided ample evidence that Jack can be seen as a Christ-like figure, whose death was necessary, to give Ennis life. In that sense, it makes a lot of sense that BBM is an Easter story - one of sacrifice and resurrection.
Maybe having religious holidays depicted would almost seem to be too much.
I think it's important to note that both the holidays represented in BBM - the 4th of July and Thanksgiving- are nationalistic/specifically American holidays. I think the decision to use patriotic-type holidays in the narrative may relate to the decision to make Jack and Ennis cowboys... in that one component of BBM has to do with re-confronting American myths and archetypes.
My favorite (maybe) is the three crosses that signal the beginning of the film.. they're of course, really electrical wire posts that appear to the left in the screen as the semi-truck carrying Ennis pulls up in Signal.
Maybe Easter is not that much a consideration in the BM movie, why?
Is it because it notes that our democratic countries are maybe becoming now islamic?
So that is a caution to us to keep it democratic?
Hugs!
To both of you and to others too: to me... Easter is there in the BM movie, but in many ways.
Other ways??
I just wondered could this BM movie have been named simply:
Easter?
Hugs!
There is no resurrection in the story.On the other hand, some viewers think that it is that or likewise. I do think that Jack is STILL alive and some other(s) did or do too... like I am thinking!!
Personally I buy very few of the religious metaphors in BBM.So there are some, MORE evbident ones?
Proulx chose sheep -Did she say WHY?
Proulx chose sheep - most importantly not because of any religious implication, but because the story is supposed to be about cowboy wannabes and nothing is lower to a cattleman than sheep and sheepherding.Who says NOT because of religious implications? It could NOT be her, since she mentions: religions, may I suggest!! Why does she quotes religions??
but because the story is supposed to be about cowboy wannabes and nothing is lower to a cattleman than sheep and sheepherding.To that, who considers that as that? It is the culture of the area?? Of the cowboys? Their prejudices?
but because the story is supposed to be about cowboy wannabes and nothing is lower to a cattleman than sheep and sheepherding.To that, if we consider gay men below that of the straight men in USA culture, then us (since I am a gay man) is like that to the eyes of some or many OTHER Americans!! ?? Therefore, Annie guides us readers/viewers right away to DRAMA!! Something is NOT right in such society... tension, non-acceptance, etc., which will lead maybe to death... as to likely or maybe murdered because a gay man is different!!.... to a straight ??
Thanks dellalluvia!
1- On the other hand, some viewers think that it is that or likewise. I do think that Jack is STILL alive and some other(s) did or do too... like I am thinking!!
2- So there are some, MORE evbident ones?
4- Who says NOT because of religious implications? It could NOT be her, since she mentions: religions, may I suggest!! Why does she quotes religions??
5- To that, who considers that as that? It is the culture of the area?? Of the cowboys? Their prejudices?
6- To that, if we consider gay men below that of the straight men in USA culture, then us (since I am a gay man) is like that to the eyes of some or many OTHER Americans!! ?? Therefore, Annie guides us readers/viewers right away to DRAMA!! Something is NOT right in such society... tension, non-acceptance, etc., which will lead maybe to death... as to likely or maybe murdered because a gay man is different!!.... to a straight ??
Good point. The religious references are a bit more subtle, such as Ennis asking Jack what the Pentecost is -- just hours before their own "Pentecostal fire". 8)
Um, OK. But Annie Proulx wrote a tragedy. Most tragedies end in death. So I can't really see Jack living. He is quite dead, his ashes turned over to his parents...
The being sick scene right before Ennis gets married scene is one that springs to mind....
Well, probably because I didn't get the impression she was writing a religious story. She was writing a tragic love story about two men who fall in love. To the mainstream religion, there is nothing less religious than that.
The cowboys. It's a historical prejudice....
Not sure if she meant to imply that, or just that these two guys were such losers and so poor this was the only job they could get - and they barely got it.
Thanks again delalluvia!
1- ...
Sure, that Annie story is a tragedy! So is Christ death, right? All christians carry crosses, their cross, is the saying?? That their tragedy will come... I guess to everyone?? Annie foresees gay death as that will happen maybe to Jack being gay or likewise, iand she details at the start the murder of a gay man because he was gay - what a tragic note!! Ennis, will he be killed because he loves too? - He does fear very much!!
2- ...
You lost me there. Which sick scene?
3- Yes and no. Yes, to some, it is the love between two men; to others, it is not nescessary that!! - or not that at all... they view and say!! Here, it depends, on the viewer's culture, experiences, point of views, projection, proofs he or she found so far, etc.; to clarify, instruct and educate. There are many views here as to that, you know that??
4- ...OK, I accept that! So is the prejudice against gay men?? Right?? As so by many or the general population... so far?? Bibles, etc.?? So is the prejudice against lesbians, etc.!! Unfortunately!!
5- Surely, Annie does imply that, since she is a master-writer!! Every word and expressions count!!
Do many Christians consider Christ's death a tragedy? It was his destiny, wasn't it? He was put here to die for everyone's sins? There wouldn't have been much point to his being here if he didn't, right? And then he was reborn again. I don't call that a tragedy....
Do many Christians consider Christ's death a tragedy? It was his destiny, wasn't it? He was put here to die for everyone's sins? There wouldn't have been much point to his being here if he didn't, right? And then he was reborn again. I don't call that a tragedy.
Ennis in the alley, throwing up. Remember?
Yes, but I believe - and so did the actors and writers - that it is a universal love story. That's what the tagline of the movie says, right? "Love is a Force of Nature"? So to me that says that first and foremost, the story is about love.
Yes, but I'm not sure of your point. There has always been prejudice against gay men and women. It pre-dates the Bible era.
Well, the story and the movie are different. Annie doesn't write about 3 crosses or scales in a grocery store, or Jack carrying a sheep. In the story, he's carrying a dog. What does that say? She doesn't even write about the church wedding at the end - that was the movie, not the story. So no, I don't think so.
1- since Mr. Twist did love Jack, therefore he is angry at Ennis for not living with his son;You have a point there, Artiste. It sure does seem like OMT has a chip on his shoulder when it comes to Ennis. "'Ennis Del Mar' he says, he's gonna come up here and whip this ranch into shape." The contemptuous way he says Ennis' name...and the way he accuses Ennis without just coming out and saying it of rejecting his son and his proposition.
(That is if Jack is Mr. Twist's son... which I question).I'm with you, Artiste. It's hard to believe that Jack could be OMT's son, and Annie Proulx also throws doubt when she says that Ennis "couldn't see much of Jack in either one of them." People ended up with children many different ways back then. Jack could have been adopted, or he could have actually been the son of a relative. Plus, there's the fact that he was circumcized and his father wasn't. That is a little unusual. Usually it's like father, like son.
2- and, because Mr. Twist is still sad because of Jack's passing, is he being vengeful really by not letting Jack's ashes to Ennis?No doubt, there, too, Artiste. How else to explain it. He could have given Ennis at least SOME of the ashes anyway!
Note: I have noticed that when someone dies, that some or many persons become even vengeful !!I understand exactly what you mean, Artiste. There have been some distraught, angry, and beside-themselves people both in the virtual and real-life world during the past two months. The classic steps of grieving start with 1, shock and 2, anger. I think it was doubly hard for some people who may have never experienced the death of a loved one before, as well as for those who might not have the tightest grasp on reality to start with. The intensity and vehemence of the reaction of some people to Heath's death was startling and scary. Hopefully, we have found ways to reconcile it by now and are starting to move toward resignation, acceptance, and valuing the life that Heath did have, the spirit that he did possess and shared with us, and even to be happy that we had the opportunity to experience his rare talent, spirit, and character.
Like you suggested too quickly to judge!! One example is when Heath passed away, I had created about 1 p.m. a thread concerning death, and when I came back about 6 p.m., there was already 3 (if not more) plus a moderator who blasted me for that!! How was I to know that Heath was to die after my thread?
Do you understand what I mean?
What I find a bit stange is more than that too! Mr. Twist knows about Ennis before Ennis comes because Jack had told him things, maybe? What is this relationship, friendship, rapport directly told to HIM by Jack, and/or to Mrs. Twist who mentioned it to old man Twist? Any clues there?I found that strange too, Artiste, that Jack would tell OMT all about Ennis, rather naive and strange. It is strange to see how children of abusive parents destroy their lives in the vain search for approval from them, even long after they are dead!! So strange and saddening. Another thing I noticed is that Jack didn't talk much about his mother even though she is obviously devoted and loving. He said to Ennis as they were about to part, "Guess I'll go up and give my Daddy a hand through the winter," and when he was drunk he had a tendency to talk about daddy. Always daddy and "my old man." I guess it's just human nature. There again are parallels to the Bible. Jesus was one who was always talking about his Daddy, even though his Father doomed him to die a horrible cruel death!!
Back to Jack being a bullrider, here is a picture of one of the original bullriders, or more accurately bull leapers, of ancient Crete!!
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-8/1210035/bull1-color.jpg)
One of my fav pics. But I'm not sure how Jack as a bull rider is anywhere near equivalent to Jesus riding on a donkey (If a "colt' was 'unbroken', Jesus wouldn't have been riding it).
I do not know if all persons tend to judge too quickly, it seems so; since many do without looking at the facts!! I did that often! Do I do it as often now with my past experiences? Does everbody? Is everyone a Mr. Twist?I must say that I am somewhat stumped by your questions, Artiste. You pose very very insightful questions, and I must think for a while before answering. . . just give me a couple of secs here!!
Is everyone a Mrs. Twist?
On the other hand, some persons do NOT act fast enough, as some do to SAVE their lives!!
How can one prevent from someone harming you or you harming someone??
WE need to feel as well as to think?? Which comes first??
Is that what the BM movie and Easter is about?
Au revoir,
hugs!
All I can say is to recount the conversation, della. I said to Annie Proulx: "You made Jack a bullrider, What about the myth of the bullrider that stretches back to the bull leapers of ancient Crete?" She was nodding her head and then she answered, "I expect the reader to bring this information to the story, because there just isn't time (I think she meant room) to talk about all of it. For instance..." and then she went into the story about Christ riding on the unbroken colt. I think that was one of His many miracles, instantly taming a colt, or low-startle-point filly, if you will...
Here's a link to the coverage of the entire event. Annie of course said a lot more than that.
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,4224.0.html (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,4224.0.html)
Just to be clear, I have two points: bull-worshipping cultures have existed in many places and throughout history.
Secondly, the early Christians borrowed from and appropriated the rituals of earlier religions, and the Easter story is no exception.
Thanks Front-Ranger!I would like to answer you as best I can, Artiste, but this talk of crucifixion makes me queasy. I remember as a teenager that I used to babysit at a Catholic family's home and there was a crucifix on the wall that I could barely look at (me being raised Presbyterian where the crosses were bare) and even tiptoed past. The analogies are many.. . for instance the nails that were driven into Christ's hands bring to mind the nail that Ennis drove into the closet door where he hung the shirts, the sword (as you mention) which is analogous to the tire iron, and the vinegar that the centurions swabbed in Christ's wounds, which brings to mind the horrific "baptising" that Jack received via his father pissing on him...well I could go on, but let's not!!
I did NOT know the origin of the word Easter! So that is it: Oestre ??
Since it's Holy Friday, do you think that Jack is crucified by being blasted with the tire iron? In film(s), Christ is picked by the arrow of the soldier, a sword? The tire iron is like sword to make him bleed?
Happy Good Friday to you, family and friends!!
Hugs!
I will also discuss at more length the parallels between "bull worshippers" (that is a major oversimplification) and the modern patriarchal religions...but think on this for a second...why is Easter on a different date each year??
Since it's Holy Friday, do you think that Jack is crucified by being blasted with the tire iron? In film(s), Christ is picked by the arrow of the soldier, a sword? The tire iron is like sword to make him bleed?
and the vinegar that the centurions swabbed in Christ's wounds, which brings to mind the horrific "baptising" that Jack received via his father pissing on him
This is interesting because I just read this in my favorite cookbook A Taste of Ancient Rome:Yes, that sounds like quite an interesting cookbook!
"...this beverage was...posca, a drink of vinegar or acidfied wine and water that is often mentioned in ancient sources. It was used for the military troops and considered to be refreshing and invigorating. With this in mind...according to...John 19:28-29...[Jesus said] '"I thirst". Now there was a vessel full of vinegar; and they filled a sponge with vinegar and put it upon hyssop and put it to his mouth...' This seemingly heartless action was therefore simply a gesture of compassion [by the soldiers] for a dying man..."Very interesting...the words of the Bible are certainly skewed often to suit the agenda of the times, aren't they? Now, I heard in great detail as a child about the terrible things that were done to Jesus to increase his suffering. All these anecdotes were gathered together under the heading of "The Passion of the Christ" and certain sects replay the whole thing as a ritual, and there was even a movie by Mel Gibson on the subject, which I didn't see. But the passages can be interpreted any number of ways, as can the Annie Proulx story. What I think we can agree on is that there are references to Christian and/or pre-Christian rituals and symbology in the story. I don't believe that Annie Proulx did this because she wanted to promote any kind of religious agenda at all. I think she was simply drawing upon a universal archetype as any good writer/storyteller would do. There are archtypes which transcend not only stories but whole religions, they are a part of our DNA in a way.
You say:
Now there was a vessel full of vinegar; and they filled a sponge with vinegar and put it upon hyssop and put it to his mouth...' This seemingly heartless action was therefore simply a gesture of compassion [by the soldiers] for a dying man..."
............
None of that given to Jack? What kind of compassion did he get from the murderers who murdered him?
And what kind of compassion did the murderer(s) did give to the one gay man of those two old tough birds??
......
Destiny is it Easter? What is it to you or as the BM movie?
Thanks delalluvia!
I understand more of what you say now.
So you think that maybe Annie accents that there is no compassion when murderers murder gay men just because these murdered are gays?
Does she warns us?
Hugs!
Thanks delalluvia!I'm not sure Annie was as all-knowing and prescient as you think, Artiste. But, nevertheless, there is the fact, sad as it is, that Matthew Shepherd was beaten, tied to a fence, and left for dead only one year after the publication of the story Brokebake Mountain, and in Wyoming, no less. What was his crime? He came on to a person or persons in a bar in Laramie, Wyoming. Certainliy, this world remains ignorant and full of fear, and we have much to regret. But, every spring, hope springs eternal, even though there is no reason to expect it. Why? I don't know. But, I celebrate and welcome the return of spring, and of hope!!
Annie does not know what the futrue holds, therefore, and hints nevertheless that danger is around the corner for gays?
To me, that is maybe how she describes Easter!!
Hugs!
I would like to answer you as best I can, Artiste, but this talk of crucifixion makes me queasy. I remember as a teenager that I used to babysit at a Catholic family's home and there was a crucifix on the wall that I could barely look at (me being raised Presbyterian where the crosses were bare) and even tiptoed past. The analogies are many.. . for instance the nails that were driven into Christ's hands bring to mind the nail that Ennis drove into the closet door where he hung the shirts, the sword (as you mention) which is analogous to the tire iron, and the vinegar that the centurions swabbed in Christ's wounds, which brings to mind the horrific "baptising" that Jack received via his father pissing on him...well I could go on, but let's not!!
I will also discuss at more length the parallels between "bull worshippers" (that is a major oversimplification) and the modern patriarchal religions...but think on this for a second...why is Easter on a different date each year??
The calculation of Easter is complicated because it is linked to (an inaccurate version of) the Hebrew calendar. Jesus was crucified immediately before the Jewish Passover [or after depending upon interpretation - my comment], which is a celebration of the Exodus from Egypt under Moses. Celebration of Passover started on the 14th or 15th day of the (spring) month of Nisan. Jewish months start when the moon is new, therefore the 14th or 15th day of the month must be immediately after a full moon. It was therefore decided to make Easter Sunday the first Sunday after the first full moon after vernal equinox. Or more precisely: Easter Sunday is the first Sunday after the "official" full moon on or after the "official" vernal equinox.
Thanks! This is good information. We see that Easter and Hebrew rituals were tied to the cycles of the moon. Prehistorical religions also revered the moon and carefully recorded its cycles. To ancient people, the moon is a powerful symbol of resurection and eternal life, because it disappears and is "born again" every month. As the noted Christian Theosophist, Alan Donant, wrote, "What of the stories of resurrection? These too are common. The Canaanites had their Baal -- sacred teacher, Lord of the Universe -- who was killed by monsters and resurrected to eternal life. In Egypt Osiris was born of the gods by virgin birth, and taught Egyptians their arts and skills. He was murdered by his brother, and rose from the dead with the help of Isis, his wife. A day was set aside to celebrate Osiris and the idea of resurrection and eternal life. The Scandinavian story of Odin has striking similarities to the Christian story. Odin recalls for the reader his own crucifixion from which he rose from the dead: 'I know that I hung in the wind-torn tree nine whole nights, spear-pierced. Consecrated to Odin, myself to my Self above me in the tree, whose root no one knows whence it sprang' (The Masks of Odin: Wisdom of the Ancient Norse, Elsa-Brita Titchenell, p. 126). The cross is often referred to as the tree of life.
With so many stories of virgin birth and resurrection, surely we cannot fail to see that, regardless of the forms they take or the peoples involved, these stories describe a universal process."
Annie Proulx and Ang Lee found the myth alive and well in the American West. As Proulx wrote in Brokeback Mountain, "He [Ennis] was still working there in September when Alman Jr., as he called his daughter, was born and their bedroom was full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds were of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, as reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with livestock."
I'm not sure Annie was as all-knowing and prescient as you think, Artiste. But, nevertheless, there is the fact, sad as it is, that Matthew Shepherd was beaten, tied to a fence, and left for dead only one year after the publication of the story Brokebake Mountain, and in Wyoming, no less. What was his crime? He came on to a person or persons in a bar in Laramie, Wyoming. Certainliy, this world remains ignorant and full of fear, and we have much to regret.
But, every spring, hope springs eternal, even though there is no reason to expect it. Why? I don't know. But, I celebrate and welcome the return of spring, and of hope!!
Good question. This is what Wikipedia says:
The calculation of Easter is complicated because it is linked to (an inaccurate version of) the Hebrew calendar. Jesus was crucified immediately before the Jewish Passover [or after depending upon interpretation - my comment], which is a celebration of the Exodus from Egypt under Moses. Celebration of Passover started on the 14th or 15th day of the (spring) month of Nisan. Jewish months start when the moon is new, therefore the 14th or 15th day of the month must be immediately after a full moon. It was therefore decided to make Easter Sunday the first Sunday after the first full moon after vernal equinox. Or more precisely: Easter Sunday is the first Sunday after the "official" full moon on or after the "official" vernal equinox. The official vernal equinox is always 21 March. The official full moon may differ from the real full moon by one or two days. (Note, however, that historically, some countries have used the real (astronomical) full moon instead of the official one when calculating Easter. This was the case, for example, of the German Protestant states, which used the astronomical full moon in the years 1700-1776. A similar practice was used in Sweden in the years 1740-1844 and in Denmark in the 1700s.) The full moon that precedes Easter is called the Paschal full moon.
a calculation made in the time of the Emperor Constantine, right?
Unfortunately, I had a typo when I posted this quote. So, here it is again corrected:
"He [Ennis] was still working there in September when Alma Jr., as he called his daughter, was born and their bedroom was full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds were of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with livestock."
This makes it more clear that it was Ennis who works with livestock, and that he considered his wife and children to be like livestock.
really, I never thought of that passage in that light! I interpreted that to mean that he was comfortable with the smells and activities of birth, having worked around livestock.
It could be interpreted that way too. But when you put it together with other passages in the book, you have to wonder...for instance, Ennis called his daughters AND his horses "little darlin." And there's the passage about how he married Alma and "had her pregnant by January." He also repeatedly tried to breed Alma in order to prove his masculinity until she put a stop to it by demanding that he use rubbers. When that happened, he said "If you don't want no more of my kids, I'll be happy to leave you alone" thus putting to bed the notion that he saw her as anything but breeding stock.
Front-Ranger, that is still a puzzle to me!
Your dots seem to connect!
There are OTHER ways too in connecting them?
Hugs!
Thanks optom!
May I diifer now.
Many straight men do have sex back door with their wives!
In Ennis case, if he did not enjoy sex with Alma, then why have so many kids??
Many gay men want sex with a lady, as well as men!! And they love both!!
Once Alma wanted out of sex, Ennis had no choice, right? No matter which door he would have used!!
Right?
Hugs!
In Ennis case, if he did not enjoy sex with Alma, then why have so many kids??
Because he wanted to prove to the world that he was a potent man, and the visible proof of that is children.
Thanks Front-Ranger!
I was just puzzled by your word: potent!! I did think immediately: Why not just sex with Alma, his wife!!
And then, re-seing your words associated with: children!! So, I remember now that Ennis loved his children!!
So, you are right!!
So, that is Ennis Easter gift: life: children!! ??
Au revoir,
hugs!
Thanks to you two!!
Is children Ennis' Easter ?
Even if Ennis is gay or bi, he is OK with me for having children, and too having been married!
Brokeplex, is that your darker meaning?
You lost me!
Au revoir,
hugs!
Toward the end of the movie, not the story, Ennis came to appreciate and take comfort in his children and to feel the "reassurance of life's continuance." But he also felt the pain of the loss of his life's love, Jack, and suffered because he was alone while his children "had it all before them, and nothing was wrong."
Another darker side of the story is that, while Jack and Ennis were on Brokeback Mountain, time didn't exist. They had their own garden of Eden. But when Aguirre interfered and told them what roles they were to play, they accepted his judgement. Also, when the sheep got tangled up they endeavored to straighten them out according to the rules, thinking "what if we have to work for him again?" When Aguirre ordered the sheep to be brought down from the mountain, Ennis acquiesced, even though he felt that he was in a "slow-motion but headlong, irreversible fall," a fall from grace. He rejected Jack and walked away from their life together, even though his gut told him not to. Time began for them then, and they could never go back to Brokeback.
This echoes the story of creation, a story that begins before recorded time. Time began when the egg of the universe shatters and time begins. The egg is the same as the oeuvre, or oestre, which became Easter. When the egg falls into time, the physical universe materializes. This ancient concept is echoed in many stories and religions, but I'll just repeat one that seems appropriate for today:
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
All of the king's horses and all of the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again.
I think that I get that Easter egg thing, but isn't that a myth like paradise in the bible is since its associated with sin as a result of loving oneself and another person??Yes, I think you're right that it is a myth, but I don't know about "sin." I am not very clear about the concept of sin...does it have to do with innate ideas about right and wrong, or is it more about the order that people are trying to impose on other people so that the ruling people can be more comfortable and secure? I'm leaning toward the latter.
Ennis and Jack, the dogs, the horses and mules, a thousand ewes and their lambs flowed up the trail like dirty water through the timber and out above the tree line into the great flowery meadows and the coursing, endless wind.
Yes, I think you're right that it is a myth, but I don't know about "sin." I am not very clear about the concept of sin...does it have to do with innate ideas about right and wrong, or is it more about the order that people are trying to impose on other people so that the ruling people can be more comfortable and secure? I'm leaning toward the latter.
The thing about time is that it flows. An interesting sentence in the story describes the ascent of the mountain:
Everything flowed UP the trail, and backwards away from time, into the endless wind, where time did not exist.
As I was thinking about Aguirre and reading this, I had an epiphany (and epiphany was just two days ago!). We see the three crosses as Ennis alights from the truck at the beginning of his sojourn. If two of the crosses are for the "two deuces," that is, Ennis and Jack, then who is the third cross for??Humanity?
Front-Ranger:
then who is the third cross for??
...........
Did you think of an answer yet?
Possible like buffy suggests?
Can the BrokebackMountain story and/or movie be seen in many ways as an Easter one?
One of my fav pics. But I'm not sure how Jack as a bull rider is anywhere near equivalent to Jesus riding on a donkey (If a "colt' was 'unbroken', Jesus wouldn't have been riding it).