I can spare you a loan, bud, if you're short on cash. Give it to you when we get to Signal.
"if you take a chance by coming here, I will take your bet and see you one hell of a kiss."
They really express the relationship in rodeo metaphors, don't they? Both As long as we can ride it... there ain't no reins on this one. and Ennis's description of his saddle bronc career. (I'm very impressed with Ennis's ability to keep up the happy face for his girls during that story... it must just ache to talk about rodeos, given how Ennis associates rodeos with Jack.)
About the Texans and coffee: tell you what, I laughed at that line when I heard it in the theater, because it seemed like gratuitous Texan-bashing. ("You wouldn't want him in here; he's a Texan, and you just can't tell what they'll do." In my corner of the world, Texans have a reputation for driving rental jeeps off of trails until they're stuck somewhere on a cliff and need rescuing.) But maybe a more realistic interpretation is "You have no idea how incoherent I get when I'm post-coital." ;)
"You have no idea how incoherent I get when I'm post-coital.":D
2) Pretty obvious: he doesn't want to hang out with churchy types who would judge him harshly if they knew he was gay.
"All I'm saying is, what's the point to making it? If the taxes don't get it, the inflation eats it all up. You should see Lureen, punching numbers into her adding machine, hunting for extra zeros, her eyes getting smalller and smaller, it's like watching a rabbit trying to squeeze into a snakehole with a coyote on its tail.
I've been wondering though if there might have been any recent preaching specifically against the sin of homosexuality in their church that has made him less willing to mix with them and more willing to call them names than he originally might have been. The Stonewall riots were in 1969, the less-than-blissful Del Mar domestic Saturday night scene takes place in 1973 - time enough for even small rural community churches to have picked up on the issue and to have started being more active in preaching against it. In Ennis's early youth I imagine there wouldn't be such preaching - it would just be a given to all that it was an abomination and so forth, without anyone going publicly on about it.
That's just speculation on my side, of course, I know next to nothing at all about how (if at all) Stonewall reverberated throughout the country in those years and what went on in American rural church communities back then.
Another one: "Gonna snow tonight for sure." Snow was the harbinger of the early end of their summer on Brokeback, and here it's the harbinger of the early end of their relationship and Jack's life. Breaks my heart every time I hear him say it.
What about the line, "As clumsy as I am, I'd probably electrocute myself." I always thought there was something more to that than that Ennis wanted part-time jobs, what with all the other lightning/electricity imagery. Maybe having a job at the power company, a utility, represented a utilitarian life that Ennis felt he could not handle because he had been jolted out of an ordinary existence by Jack and Brokeback Mountain.
What about the line, "As clumsy as I am, I'd probably electrocute myself.
"Gonna snow tonight for sure." Snow was the harbinger of the early end of their summer on Brokeback, and here it's the harbinger of the early end of their relationship and Jack's life. Breaks my heart every time I hear him say it.
But maybe that's just me, and it's equally possible to read into the question a sign that Jack has still not completely given up, precisely because Ennis hasn't gone and re-married?
Speaking of which, here's a comment about their previous camping scene. He says, "So you and Lureen. Is it ... normal and all?" And Jack just shrugs and nods. But I always wish he'd have just said, "Hell no, dumbass -- because I'M GAY." I know a lot of people might say that would freak Ennis out in the same way Jack's Mexico revelation supposedly (debatably) does. But I always think maybe that might have clued Ennis in. Maybe he really doesn't get how the whole sexual preference thing works, doesn't know why it wasn't "normal" with him and Alma, why he isn't attracted to other women. Maybe he assumes Jack and Lureen DO have a perfectly average marriage, except for this thing Jack has going on the side. And that might make him feel even more self-conscious. ... I mean, it sounds absurd to us. But is it that farfetched that someone in his situation might be pretty ignorant about that stuff?
Speaking of which, here's a comment about their previous camping scene. He says, "So you and Lureen. Is it ... normal and all?" And Jack just shrugs and nods. But I always wish he'd have just said, "Hell no, dumbass -- because I'M GAY." I know a lot of people might say that would freak Ennis out in the same way Jack's Mexico revelation supposedly (debatably) does. But I always think maybe that might have clued Ennis in. Maybe he really doesn't get how the whole sexual orientation thing works, doesn't know why it wasn't "normal" with him and Alma, why he isn't attracted to other women. Maybe he assumes Jack and Lureen DO have a perfectly average marriage, except for this thing Jack has going on the side. And that might make him feel even more self-conscious. ... I mean, it sounds absurd to us. But is it that farfetched that someone in his situation might be pretty ignorant about that stuff?
And another one...
"You sleep with the sheep, 100 percent"- can be translated into "I don't want no rose stemming out of you two boys."
As clumsy as I am, I'd probably electrocute myself.
Ennis to Lureen- "We were good friends." - can be translated into "He was the love of my life and my best friend."
So ends Ennis' moment of openness, and an opportunity is wasted.
This could be an opportunity for Jack to confide his own feelings and experiences, offer Ennis some reassurance that his fears are normal under the circumstances, take the moment to a greater level of intimacy -- in other words, provide the verbal equivalent of the wet handkerchief after the bear incident, or the cheek caress after Ennis' revelation about Earl.
Instead, for perfectly understandable and well-meaning reasons -- Jack always has to be wary of that low startle point -- he doesn't do any of these things. He shrugs off the questions and suggests that Ennis move out of town.
So ends Ennis' moment of openness, and an opportunity is wasted.
Awww, Katherine, you're just a little sentimental today aren't you?
-"There ain't no reigns on this one" - can be translated into "I love you so much that I feel completely out of control when I'm around you." Or it can be translated into "There's no way for us to control how society will view our relationship." - Or when combined with the lines above... it can be translated into... "I'll love you for the rest of my life even though this situation makes me feel completely out of control." or "I can't help loving you forever even if we can't control our relationship the way we'd like due to societal pressures." etc.
All this time and you ain't found nobody else to marry?"
A straightforward question about what's happening in ennis's life - but also a sign that Jack has given up the last buried bit of hope for a life together with Ennis. He's really saying that even in his heart of hearts he knows now that Ennis will not ever stop pretending to be what he's not; will never come around to honestly considering a life together with Jack. There is an finality, an acceptance of that as a fact in Jack's question. He's puzzled - since Ennis truly is going to go through all of his life living the lie, afraid of people finding out, ashamed of who he really is - then why haven't he taken the obvious step and seen to putting up the front that a re-marriage would provide?
But maybe that's just me, and it's equally possible to read into the question a sign that Jack has still not completely given up, precisely because Ennis hasn't gone and re-married?
He shrugs off the questions and suggests that Ennis move out of town. That actually does seem like a sensible solution. But not entirely reassuring for Ennis, as it disregards his worries. And when it comes to cohabitation, Ennis has an even lower startle point, and Jack hits it (and gets thrown).
So ends Ennis' moment of openness, and an opportunity is wasted.
And another one...
"You sleep with the sheep, 100 percent"- can be translated into "I don't want no rose stemming out of you two boys."
And, on a third and more interesting hand (that somewhat contradicts the first option)... I think Jack is being sneaky here. I think he's trying to pounce on an opportunity. I feel like you can almost see the wheels spinning in Jack's head for a second or two as he looks at the river before he comments to Ennis about maybe "getting out of there." If Ennis really is growing worried about his current living situation on his own, well then, it might be the moment to suggest moving at least closer if not move in together. He just says Texas. Living a lot closer would probably have been a nice compromise if living together really could never happen in Ennis's rule book. It really is a bit unfair that Jack always has to drive hundreds of miles. He'd probably like a little break and/ or help on that issue. I think Jack stokes Ennis's anxieties just enough... by saying "maybe you should get out of there" to make it seem like moving is now Ennis's idea or the idea of moving comes logically out of Ennis's own thought pattern and anxieties. Jack looks so frustrated when he walks away from that river... having Ennis shoot his "airplane out a the sky" again must have stung.
"Buggery is just fine, but keep your hands off each other, you hear?"
About the "why don't you move someplace else?" comment -- there's something about Jack's tone of voice there that reminds me of "I can spare you a loan, bud, if you're short on cash..." from the last day on the mountain. I don't know what that means, though.
I think it backfired, though...It backfired both times.
It backfired both times.
I'm trying to figure this out, and this could be totally wrong. (Disagree with me! Please!) But it seems as though in each case, Ennis has... revealed something? And Jack either doesn't quite understand what Ennis is really saying, or he hopes he's hearing something and he's a bit hesitant about following up on it? And each time, Jack's response isn't the one Ennis wants (if Ennis has any idea what he wants in either case -- which, actually, I doubt; Ennis's feelings are so conflicted).
From Meryl
I think it backfired, though, because Ennis got even more alarmed when Jack didn't tell him his fears were groundless. By suggesting he move he was, in a way, suggesting that maybe Ennis was right and people did "know." Ennis probably blew up at him partly to cover that fear.
I think Ennis's facial expression immediately after Jack's line says it all - Jack's reply shocks and frightens him - though he's reining it in as usual.
(Tell me again just WHY Heath Ledger didn't get that Oscar, BAFTA, and so forth? ??? I still for the life of me can't understand it. )
Hm, lines with double meanings, here's another one which is pretty obvious, the way it's acted and all:
You forgettin' somethin'?
- You're forgetting your fishing gear
- You're forgetting kissing me goodbye
- You're completely forgetting and disregarding *me*
from Meryl
The "forgettin' somethin'" line is a supreme example of double meanings! I think you could safely add even a fourth meaning: "If you're going to lie to me about fishing, the least you can do is keep up the pretense and take your gear."
Here's one:
"Jack ain't the restaurant type"
Of course Ennis has to stop Alma from entertaining any notions she'll be going along with the two of them, - but it has a unintended hint of the humorous to it because it seems like a gentle dig at Jack's constant complaining about the food situation on the mountain and all the fussing over the beans.
OK, here's a line I'd love to analyze. Its meaning to the speaker is fairly clear. But what I want to know is what it means to the listener:
"Ennis, girls don't fall in love with fun."
I started wondering about this line only recently. It's the first time the word "love" is used in the movie, which gives it significance. We all know how significant the second use of the word is. I noticed that, immediately after Cassie says it and then flees from the bus station, Ennis' demeanor changes. He stops eating pie and looks up as if her words have triggered a thought. He barely notices Cassie leaving. The camera lingers on his face as he gazes into space as though pondering something.
What do you all think he's thinking?
So which boy didn't fall in love with fun? It could be him realizing how much he means to Jack. Or it could be him realizing how much Jack means to him.
I would say that Jack didn't fall in love with fun. I mean, I think Ennis does think that Jack is fun. (I keep picturing Jack's exaggerated clowning around when Ennis tells him that "my daddy thought rodeo cowboys were a bunch of f***-ups." Or Jack's bad harmonica playing. Or Jack's off-key singing. I think that Jack does think that Ennis is fun... certainly they had fun together, teasing each other on the mountain, skinny-dipping after the reunion. But I don't think Ennis realizes how much fun he really is.)
What do you all think he's thinking?
The way he previously talks to Jack about her indicates he doesn't even really listen to what she's saying, he doesn't think about her feelings and he sure can't be bothered to care.
I truly think Ennis was aware that he loved Jack a long time before Jack died - whether or not he used that word to himself about it.
But I'll be interested, too, in what others say.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1151802,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1151802,00.html)
One of the main things you added to the story was women.
In a lot of your work, women turn out to have far richer interior lives than men.
I have always argued that if you want to learn something about emotion, you have to ask women. That's why I've had three women characters who've won Oscars--[for] Patricia Neal, Cloris Leachman and Shirley MacLaine. I've always thought that for my interests, emotionally, I have to seek women to talk about. Men don't talk about emotion. They don't understand it.
Exact quote of Ennis's line in the movie, "I just can't stand this anymore, Jack."
I just have to guess what the screenplay writers and the movie script people meant here.
I say that maybe Ennis cannot stand the fact that his soul and body wants to be with Jack because he is actually in love with Jack. But, he has got it fixed in his stubborn mind that because of the hand which other people dealt him and he cannot trade cards so to speak, he can't fix it, he just has to stand it although it is making him miserable.
I find that movie scene where Ennis did show emotion and cried odd in the fact that Larry McMurtry told Time Magazine interviewer that men don't understand emotion.
Oh, you're right, Tiawahcowboy, it is "can't stand this." I don't know if I've heard the "just" but I'll listen for it next time. Nice to see you discussing the movie (as opposed to the story) now and then!
And your theory makes sense about why he says it.
As for Larry McMurtry's quote about men not understanding emotion -- a lot of people would argue that just because Ennis expresses emotion doesn't mean he fully understands it. In other words, I don't think McMurtry was necessarily saying that men are unemotional.
Anyway, it does strike me how easily the "girls don't fall in love with fun" can be flipped to mirror the other side of the Ennis/Cassie relationship (not only Ennis/Jack). Ennis sure didn't and couldn't fall in love with fun either, even when it was smiling brightly at him and making him dance to jaunty tunes and requesting foot rubs: Cassie *was* a real fun girl when they first met.
But, as to the specific quote about "fun"... like I said in my post above, I do think Ennis fell in love with fun. Not with Cassie obviously, but with Jack. I think Jack's sense of fun and light-heartedness was a big part of the attraction for Ennis. And the importance of their ability to goof around and genuinely have fun together probably shouldn't be under-estimated. They had such difficult lives that being able to lighten-up and have fun must have been really significant. I think their ability to have "fun" together also is deeply linked to how much they understand one another.
So what do you think it was that Cassie did fall in love with? ;)
Yes, I would love to talk about "If you don't got nothin' you don't need nothin'" (one of my favorite lines), just not tonite. Can we sleep on it and tackle it in the a.m.?
But, as to the specific quote about "fun"... like I said in my post above, I do think Ennis fell in love with fun. Not with Cassie obviously, but with Jack.
then after he asks "Does he love you?", Ennis looks to his right and there's a silence filled only by the sound of - yeah, you guessed it - wind. And then Ennis looks so lonely ...This to me is the most poignant and sad part of the entire Ennis/Alma Jr. conversation, because of Ennis's expression there, as his head is turned away and as he turns back towards his daughter. He's got "missing Jack" written all over his features so eloquently it still makes me catch my breath after my umpteenth viewing. :'(
"If you don't got nothin', then you don't need nothin'."
Bedroll's big enough, if u get to hammerin'.
(From the short shory) "Too late to go out to them damn sheep," said Ennis, dizzy drunk on all fours one cold hour when the moon had notched past two. The meadow stones glowed white-green and a flinty wind worked over the meadow, scraped the fire low, then ruffled it into yellow silk sashes. "Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks, ride out at first light."
"Freeze your ass off when that fire dies down. Better off sleepin in the tent."
"Doubt I'll feel nothin." But he staggered under canvas, pulled his boots off, snored on the ground cloth for a while, woke Jack with the clacking of his jaw.
"Jesus Christ, quit hammerin and get over here. Bedroll's big enough," said Jack in an irritable sleep-clogged voice. It was big enough, warm enough, and in a little while they deepened their intimacy considerably. Ennis ran full-throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect cock. Ennis jerked his hand away as though he'd touched fire, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours and, with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, entered him, nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed. They went at it in silence except for a few sharp intakes of breath and Jack's choked "gun's goin off," then out, down, and asleep.
Ennis woke in red dawn with his pants around his knees, a top-grade headache, and Jack butted against
him; without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.
So what do you think it was that Cassie did fall in love with? ;)
But, the Story Signal bar gal with no name, according to Ennis, "had some problems he didn't want." In regard to the latter, she was probably desperate for a husband.
I like the point you make about changes in attitudes in society in general. That's exactly where my previous post about not necessarily managing to read the same as some other Brokaholics - ie. one overriding influence only - into the Ennis/Alma exchange comes in.
there's just something about Ennis, maybe a sense that there's something beneath that reticent surface, that there's a man truly worth knowing locked away in there.
I'd like to think one of the effects of that transformation is that society has a bit less influence on him now than it had for the previous 20 years.
Jack tried a Carl Perkins song, bawling "what I say-ay-ay," but he favored a sad hymn, "Water-Walking Jesus," learned from his mother who believed in the Pentecost, that he sang at dirge slowness, setting off distant coyote yips.
I'm a bit hesitant to talk about the references to religion in the movie. But, well... I think that the whole business about going to the Methodist church (Jenny singing, Monroe catering, etc etc) touches on society's influence on Ennis.
You catalogued the church references in Ennis' family well, (though I would also include the one where he tells his daughters "I wasn't no angel like you and Jenny here, didn't have no wings"). But also, what about the scene at the Twist ranch? That one seems heavy with religious implications, too.
I'd like to think one of the effects of that transformation is that society has a bit less influence on him now than it had for the previous 20 years.
I think the "ain't no angel like you and Jenny here" fits in with the examples I gave. I, at least, would leave out the Twist ranch scene (or maybe discuss it in a different sort of discussion of religion). ... First he's a part of it, and feels as his attraction to Jack is a sin. Then he withdraws from it, partly hinting that there's something wrong with him ("I ain't no angel"), but also partly hinting that there's something wrong with society ("that fire-and-brimstone crowd"). And then with his daughter's wedding, he's simply going to participate -- there aren't any references to sin or guilt. But he's going to be part of the community, in some sort of way.
I can't speak to Christian symbolism at the Twist ranch at all -- it doesn't resonate with me personally. Not saying that it isn't there, but that I'm not the right person to make sense of it.
But the last image that the film leaves us with - the shirts still kept hidden in the closet - makes me less optimistic on that account. It's as if Ang Lee wants to stress that society's impact for men like Ennis hasn't changed much - it remains just as overwhelmingly limiting and crushing a force still at the end of those 20 years, - for Ennis, and for others like him.
But I do think there are lots of indications that Ennis has changed -- that is, become more accepting of his sexuality. So when I said society has less influence on him than before, I meant that he is now more willing to ignore society's rules (represented here by the roundup) and instead act on behalf of love (attend the wedding). Unfortunately, the closet stands as a reminder that, in the case of Jack if not Alma, his transformation comes too late.
Hmmm. I see what you mean - I agree on him accepting himself, having reached some point of peace with his nature. But he still keeps who he is hidden from everyone else than himself, away in that closet, and as such, I think society does have a strong influence on him - just as before, it makes him hide and conform and stay silent. Also, I would argue that him attending the wedding implies him conforming to society's rules, and not the oppsosite, as I mentioned in my previous post. Unless US rural society is very different from the place where I live and grew up....... Over here at least, "society" would really frown at a father who didn't move heaven and earth to attend his own daughter's wedding and walk her up the aisle if she wanted him to.
Meaning #3: Ever notice that the first line in the movie is Jack swearing, and the last line is "Jack, I swear..."?
The reason he decides to go to the wedding isn't that he fears "society" would disapprove if he skipped it.
.....but to me it seems that shame about his sexuality is less a factor by this point.
At any rate, I think at the end of the film Ennis has finally managed to fight down the cruel and crippling influence of his own father's abusive actions and prejudices, and if there are a few things to be happy about there at the end, surely the fact that he's welcoming in his daughter's love and showing his father's hatred and bigotry the door must be one of them....
This movie is very ambiguous throughout, and the ending particularly so.
+ 100 posts !! Woot! :) :)
I'm disrupting the discussion to move on to another "double meaning" for a moment, but this one just occured to me (probably months after everyone else, but there you are.......):
When Ennis promises his daughters he'll be back in time for the church picnic, he says "All right...long as I don't have to sing!" And they laugh, as if it's a good and lighthearted joke. So the first thought that comes to mind is that his daughters think it's funny because they know that Ennis can't sing, or never sings, or sings so badly that it's a shared and internal family "thing".
But he *can* sing - he sings when he's riding under the blue sky, on his way back to Jack with food, and he sings to Jack during the dozy embrace. So maybe an unvoiced and subconscious sentiment behind "as long as I don't have to sing" is : "Because that's something special between Jack and me, something belonging to Brokeback - and I'll not sing anywhere else." :'(
I think there is a clever double-meaning in Cassie's line to Alma, Jnr when she says, 'You don't say much, but you get your point across.' This comment could equally well apply to Ennis as to his daughter. An inherited family trait, perhaps?
Opinionista -- I interpreted "not rolling his own" to mean that Jack was taking care of his sexual needs by having sex with other men rather than by masturbating. But I think there are a lot of ways to read the line
What if going to Alma Jr's wedding was actually symbolic of giving in to society's demands?
From Meryl
This is what happens to people when society insists they fit a certain mold and punishes them if they can't.
As to what everyone (Jack, Cassie, Alma) sees in Ennis; - I think they see or sense his *strength*. Not only the visible physical one, but his immense mental strength - coupled with strong *passion*. The guy is a veritable volcano of passion and emotions waiting to erupt, as he demonstrates in that one scene where it initially is Jack who holds back, not knowing how far he'll be allowed to go...... The ones who love Ennis are the ones who actually sense all of this, and probably think they can find the means to unlock his strength enough for it to also encompass them, to support them, to make them strong by extension. And they hope to find the means to unlock his emotional side aw well, something that only Jack actually manages to do, having the "right key to turn the lock tumblers". That's such an unbelievably apt image. All that passion Ennis keeps under lock and key.........
Unfortunately for everyone, Ennis uses nearly all his immense strength not on opening up and giving, but on keeping himself tightly in check, tying himself into knots, keeping his nature and passions repressed and out of sight away from everyone including himself, under such pressure that the eruptions are few but very spectacular.
But as so often happens in a really great character, the opposite quality is also present--fragility--and I think that makes those who love Ennis want to reach out to him, much as they would to a hurt child, and be a comfort and help to him. What a powerful combination!
Heath achieves this so superbly, too: you can just see him clapping a lid on Ennis's fear and anger, clenching his jaw and putting on a hard or stoicly indifferent face; but suddenly there is the most beautiful soft, benevolent, cherishing look that comes into his eyes, coupled with a blindingly beautiful smile. He makes this seemingly nondescript man infinitely desirable, to those with eyes to see.
From Katherine
Your use of the phrase "tying himself into knots" made me think of a double meaning to Jack's line, "Let's get, unless you want to sit around tying knots all day." That sort of summarizes their future relationship too, doesn't it?
From Meryl
But as so often happens in a really great character, the opposite quality is also present--fragility--and I think that makes those who love Ennis want to reach out to him, much as they would to a hurt child, and be a comfort and help to him. [ ] ....suddenly there is the most beautiful soft, benevolent, cherishing look that comes into his eyes, coupled with a blindingly beautiful smile.
I think the transformation from 'stoic' to 'desirable' in the scenes between the first and second tent scene shows what a great actor Heath Ledger is. Despite the storm of negative emotions he must have gone through (confusion, guilt, shame) after leaving Jack in the morning and going back to the sheep, iint the end, the only thing Ennis can do is give himself over to what he really wants: to be comforted and loved by Jack. And all of this accompanied by the beautiful music by Santaolalla. Truly wonderful.
In the end, the only thing Ennis can do is give himself over to what he really wants: to be comforted and loved by Jack
From Mikaela
There's another scene and line where that fragility is apparent, where the double meaning stands out epecially because of the different reactions from the movie audience and the listener in the film: When Ennis says "Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year", the cinema audiences have never failed to laugh heartily whenever I've seen the film.....Jack's reaction, contrary to the audience's, is pensive, serious, compassionate, fond..... he knows that there's too much truth to what Ennis says, and that's not something to laugh about. He senses the overwhelming loneliness in the line.
There's another scene and line where that fragility is apparent, where the double meaning stands out epecially because of the different reactions from the movie audience and the listener in the film: When Ennis says "Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year", the cinema audiences have never failed to laugh heartily whenever I've seen the film. Heartily, but not long. It's a funny comeback, and there haven't been too many of those! Ordinarily, you'd expect the listener in the movie to laugh as well, because it's a joke, right? Ennis made a joke - wooo-wee! Or...did he? Jack's reaction, contrary to the audience's, is pensive, serious, compassionate, fond..... he knows that there's too much truth to what Ennis says, and that's not something to laugh about. He senses the overwhelming loneliness in the line. Because of that difference in reactions, the truth about the "joke" hits the audience quickly, and the laughter dies.......
This is what I love about Movie Ennis and Jack. They don't just treat the sex as recreational, as in the story. There's a silent acknowledgement of its seriousness, as the eye contact and tender kissing in the second tent scene shows. Without this, I know I wouldn't have cared as much about them, cried over them, been haunted by them (and over-analyzed them). I'm just really, really glad Ang Lee knew how important this was and insisted on including it, not to mention the fact that in Heath and Jake we were given actors who could make it all work so beautifully.
This is what I love about Movie Ennis and Jack. They don't just treat the sex as recreational, as in the story. There's a silent acknowledgement of its seriousness, as the eye contact and tender kissing in the second tent scene shows. Without this, I know I wouldn't have cared as much about them, cried over them, been haunted by them (and over-analyzed them). I'm just really, really glad Ang Lee knew how important this was and insisted on including it, not to mention the fact that in Heath and Jake we were given actors who could make it all work so beautifully.
Does Ennis mean (at this precise moment when he says it) that he doesn't intend to have sex with Jack again. As in- "that was the only time that will happen"- i.e. "It was a mistake and I was drunk." Or, does he mean "you're the only man I'll have sex with (this is an anomaly in my life)." Or, does he mean "we'll only do this up here on Brokeback and once the summer is over, we're over." ??
Most importantly... how does Jack hear this line? It's unclear to me. He changes the topic a bit with the "nobody's business but ours" line.
And perhaps most confusingly... the screenwriters give the "one shot" line to Ennis, but in Proulx's story Jack says it.
II don't think Ennis intended for the second tent scene to happen... he seems to be fighting with himself until he finally heads for the tent. And he doesn't seem sure that's what he wants until he finally begins to respond to Jack's kiss.
Double meaning on the lighter side: “Your folks just stop at ‘Ennis’?” Well, actually, they did. He’s the youngest Del Mar.
In other contexts, he speaks of his dad as a fairly good guy ("now my dad, he was a fine roper ... I think my dad was right.").
So that's not so much a double meaning as an ominous implication about how abusive upbringing can warp minds.
I think she had an insight based on the subtitles on the version of the movie that played in her country. We had a conversation like this before, but, ummmm, I can't remember what she said.
He does intend to continue the thing for now, though. He knows how he feels about Jack and realizes that this is a big chance for him (Ennis) to be 19 and do what he wants. But he's also cognizant of his upcoming marriage, and believes that once they descend back into society that's all over, "this thing" can't work.
Ennis nearly follows in his father’s footsteps by threatening to “do the job” to Jack: During the final lake scene, “What I don’t know...”
(I’m really sorry this turned out so long. I was thinking of perhaps creating a separate thread on this, but I suppose the topic of parents and children, esp. fathers and sons in BBM must have been debated to exhaustion and beyond a long time ago, before I ever came to this board.)
Personally, I don't think that Ennis intended to have sex with Jack again after the first time, and that Jack is trying to give a reason why they can continue. I don't think Ennis intended for the second tent scene to happen... he seems to be fighting with himself until he finally heads for the tent. And he doesn't seem sure that's what he wants until he finally begins to respond to Jack's kiss.
(I wish Mikaela were here for this conversation... I think she had an insight based on the subtitles on the version of the movie that played in her country.
And, at their last evening together, they let Jack say "Everytime I go to see the ranchneighbour's wife, somebody shoots at me."No way! :D
So here's a question, especially for you story fans (Mel?). How much of this emotional/psychological stuff is there in the story, and how much is fully developed only in the film? Of course, the basic plot is certainly all there in the story. But I'll have to say that when I read it, I do not get as vivid a sense of how much Ennis' father's actions and attitudes emotionally damaged his son. I read it more simply: having witnessed Earl's awful fate, Ennis quite understandably considered it too dangerous to live with Jack. But I admit I don't fully appreciate the story as much as I should or could, so maybe I just didn't grasp this aspect in enough depth.
Dad says, you got a take him unawares, don't say nothin to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doin it until he takes the message. Nothin like hurtin somebody to make him hear good.
BTW, Katherine, I get the impression that AP is quite a Heathen herself after seeing the movie.
From Penthesilea
And, at their last evening together, they let Jack say "Everytime I go to see the ranchneighbour's wife, somebody shoots at me."
From Nakymaton quoting Annie ProulxIn addition to what you say about this scene, Mel - which I completely agree with - there's another point to it that pertains to Ennis's relationship with his father. Ennis in the short story tells Jack how his father taught him to use his fists to solve the problem with his older brother beating on him all the time (emphasis mine):
Dad says, you got a take him unawares, don't say nothin to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doin it until he takes the message. Nothin like hurtin somebody to make him hear good.
When I was about six he set me down and says, Ennis you've got a problem and you got a fix it or it's going to be with you until you're ninety.....Another instance of high tragic irony there, that Ennis's father once showed him that if you can't stand it, you've got to fix it - *and* even when it may seem impossible, there's actually a possibility of fixing it!
From NakymatonAnd the short story has one sentence that I find the most chilling of all in that sorry tale of murder and child abuse. Ennis is telling Jack about that incident when his father took his sons to see the murdered man, and among other things he says:
the description of learning to punch K.E. comes right before the description of Earl and Rich's fate.
Dad laughed about it.Yeah, that Mr. Del Mar sure knew how to raise his sons right! >:( >:(
From NakymatonOh, what an observation that is - the most horrible win-win situation ever: If Ennis gets into a fight over some remark pertaining to his sexuality and wins, he's reaffirmed his manhood. But if he loses, he'ss thereby been helped with beating that unwanted part of his mind and psyche into submission. **shudders**
That's where I've gotten the idea that Ennis was trying to beat his own sexuality (and his love for Jack) into submission when he hit Jack... and every other time Ennis got into a fight, too.
From nakymatonThat's almost an understatement....... Reading the rest of "Close Range" depressed me so much, I could hardly stand it, it got me so disillusioned with human nature because of that unsentimental, frank and chilling description of the characters and their relationships. Her writing is fabulous, but her characters and story lines are far from the fairy tales, that's for sure......
Annie Proulx just doesn't write likeable characters very much; she seems to have a really unsentimental (to say the least) view of human nature.
And sure enough, in the next scene we get they *are* in the bedroom. At the Siesta. ;)
And smoking!
Man, this movie is so incredibly ambiguous. I see the exact same scene and read it as, Ennis sitting by the campfire already knows that he wants to go into the tent but he's really nervous about it -- not just because he's homophobic but because this is something he's never done before (maybe with a woman, either) and he's both excited and fearful. When he finally does go in, he is perfectly willing but it's such a foreign experience for him that he's not exactly sure how to proceed and it takes him a while to relax into it. But, with help from Jack's "s'alrights," he does!
Ennis and Jack both use that phrase, and both talk about getting killed for it (Jack jokingly).
I wasn’t sure where to ask this, but I’ve been wondering about “this thing.” Ennis and Jack both use that phrase, and both talk about getting killed for it (Jack jokingly). When Ennis uses it, he’s clearly talking about something serious. Jack’s surface meaning is that his “thing” is just a fling (Ennis takes it that way), but is there a double meaning, too? I really don’t like the idea of his using the phrase the same way as Ennis (no offense to Randall).
I can’t possibly address all the comments that have arrived today, so I’ll just post a few “double meaning” ideas (and then maybe get some sleep).
- “I don’t need your money.” >> “It’s you I need.”
- “This ain’t no rodeo, cowboy.” >> “What happened this summer means a lot more than ridin’ some piece of stock for 8 seconds.” (nakymaton suggested a couple others a while back)
- “You’re wasting your time here.” >> “Working for me is a waste of your time.”
- “Take your friend to the Knife & Fork.” >> If Alma said this after meeting Jack, she’d probably mean a real knife and fork.
- “Oh, you got a kid?” >> “You’re more tied down than I thought.”
- “You’re safe.” (Cassie) >> “Don’t worry, you’re not going to fall in love with me.”
I wasn’t sure where to ask this, but I’ve been wondering about “this thing.” Ennis and Jack both use that phrase, and both talk about getting killed for it (Jack jokingly). When Ennis uses it, he’s clearly talking about something serious. Jack’s surface meaning is that his “thing” is just a fling (Ennis takes it that way), but is there a double meaning, too? I really don’t like the idea of his using the phrase the same way as Ennis (no offense to Randall).
Here in the motel when Jack says "this" it's intriguingly coupled with "swear". I keep coming back to this line, which seems fun and lighthearted of course, as also very significant.
And "this ain't no rodeo" -- that's a nice reading of it. I'd like to hear nakymaton's other suggestions, as well. The whole lassooing thing -- Ennis casually tossing the first loop off, but then getting caught in the second, but fighting back -- seems kind of laden with subtext, doesn't it?
I just realized what you meant a few posts back, Katherine, about the lassoing: that the first and second toss of the lasso correspond to the first and second tent scenes. Is that what you meant? Maybe we can discuss this at Ted's (maybe I should mention that Ted refers to Ted Turner!!) ;)
as nothing more than a job needed doing
"I got a kid. Eight months old. Smilea a lot."
"He's from Texas."
Both mean: excuse me, but I'm not in my right mind.
Man, this movie is so incredibly ambiguous. I see the exact same scene and read it as, Ennis sitting by the campfire already knows that he wants to go into the tent but he's really nervous about it -- not just because he's homophobic but because this is something he's never done before (maybe with a woman, either) and he's both excited and fearful. When he finally does go in, he is perfectly willing but it's such a foreign experience for him that he's not exactly sure how to proceed and it takes him a while to relax into it. But, with help from Jack's "s'alrights," he does!Did you notice on the mountian how the scene was held with them sitting so close. They likely remained there for quite some time. Also Jack made a special trip to where Ennis was to see him. Bet they hardly spoke or needed to during supper, just enjoying the closeness.
Another of those bridging scenes double meanings: LaShawn says "....boy, were we behind the times". And the film cuts directly to someone else who's behind the times - Alma Jr., waiting for her daddy and apparently behind the times when it comes to recent developments (ie. Ennis having hooked up with Cassie).
"Two guys living together - no way" doesn't only apply to what society at large would think about it, but to what Ennis himself truly believes as well, and the shame he can't manage to shake or alter even when the love of his life is at stake - till it's too late.
From Mikaela
I know Ennis uses the tire iron and risk of being killed as his reason for keeping Jack at a distance, but that's not the only or even main reason, IMO. He'd not be that afraid of physical violence and standing up to the threat of physical violence if he'd known himself to be in the right. But he doesn't - some significant part of him thinks they'd be right for coming after him with tire irons, if he should decide to have a go at the "sweet life" that Jack wants. "Two guys living together - no way" doesn't only apply to what society at large would think about it, but to what Ennis himself truly believes as well, and the shame he can't manage to shake or alter even when the love of his life is at stake - till it's too late.
That's how I read Ennis, as well. "Tied up in knots" is a really great way to describe him -- to acknowledge the contradictions between loving Jack (which he certainly does) and all the complicated shame and self-loathing that's there in Ennis as well.
Alma's "outing" him at Thanksgiving, and when Jack finally hinted that he was ready to "quit" Ennis. After this, he had to admit to himself that he was never going to fit in like he wanted to. He belonged on Jack's side of the fence, and there was no more denying it.
Really? You think Alma Jr. didn't know Ennis was seeing Cassie? I thought that Jr's expression said "oh, god, not HER again." Whether it's normal teenaged child-of-divorce jealousy, or whether Jr had a particular insight into her father, I don't know. (She seems like a really perceptive kid, doesn't she? I wonder how she would have interacted with Jack, if Ennis had ever given them more than two seconds to interact. I mean, she seems very perceptive, very caring, and very very fond of her father. And yet she's very much a product of her world... marrying a roughneck at age nineteen (!).
I think Jack would have charmed the socks off Junior, if given half the chance, and if she'd been able to look past the "queer" issue for a moment. And I think she would have been able to do that, and her sister too. When beloved family is involved, it's much more difficult to ride the principled high horse. (Doesn't even the Vice President of the USA prove that?) I think his daughters would have loved Ennis even if they'd learned the truth. I like them; - I can't bring myself to believe anything else. Rural Wyoming or no.
Too true. I think Ennis suffered from low self-esteem from childhood on (his habit of keeping to himself was a product of it). His marriage helped heal that, gave him an accepted place in society and a wife and children who looked up to him. When he made the decision to continue his homosexual relationship with Jack, he put that in danger.
To preserve his tenuous hold on self-esteem, he had to look down on Jack as one of "those boys" and think of his passion for Jack only as "this thing." If he were to set up housekeeping with Jack, then of course his family and friends would know he was one of "those boys," too. Being the object of their contempt (and by association, his father's) was an insurmountable horror to him, a betrayal of his deepest wish to be accepted and respected in his life.
The fact that he continued to take the risk of meeting Jack over the years was a testimony to how much Jack meant to him. But I do think he blinded himself for a long time to the fact that what he felt for Jack was more than physical passion and friendship. He was forced to acknowledge this by two things: Alma's "outing" him at Thanksgiving, and when Jack finally hinted that he was ready to "quit" Ennis. After this, he had to admit to himself that he was never going to fit in like he wanted to. He belonged on Jack's side of the fence, and there was no more denying it.
"Sure, and you could try to convince Alma to let you and Lureen adopt the girls. And money would rain down from L.D. Newsome and we could just live together herding sheep and whiskey would flow in the stream..."
When you think about it... this is a really wierd thing for Ennis to even think of... why would Jack and Lureen adopt Ennis's kids under any circumstances? It's sad that Ennis can't wrap his head around any scenario that would allow Jack and Ennis to raise their kids together (this I know would be way too progressive for Ennis to consider or even imagine as a possibility), but still... why is this idea of Jack and Lureen adopting the girls a solution he even imagines (even in his sarcastic state of mind). I truly don't know how to interpret it.
The other sad thing I think, is that even in his sarcasm he realizes that living together with Jack herding sheep was the best time of his life (and that he probably really would like to do that in an ideal world).
:'(
he couldn't see leaving the girls behind, which made moving to Texas even more of an impossibility.
I wonder if Ennis was curious about Jack's family.
the scene where he lets Bobby drive the tractor for a second certainly shows us that he was fun around kids too.
From Front-Ranger:
"Damn you Ennis." = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart.
"Kill us a nice elk."
I was thinking this morning about how much that line stands out. Others (Amanda?) have pointed out how elk symbolizes their relationship and the compromises they make for each other, as an elk solved the sheep/beans conflict on Brokeback. So implicitly he's talking about making a compromise and restoring peace.
But it's funny in this context, because it's hard to imagine them taking the time to hunt and dress a huge animal. After all, they never even bother to fish!
Ennis's use of the word "kill" in reference to the elk seems ominous too. I guess most of this scene has an ominous feel to it...
:-\
"Kill us a nice elk."I think the did some fishing. In the middle camping trip Ennis is shown getting out of his truck with all his gear. The river was always near and they had to eat.
I was thinking this morning about how much that line stands out. Others (Amanda?) have pointed out how elk symbolizes their relationship and the compromises they make for each other, as an elk solved the sheep/beans conflict on Brokeback. So implicitly he's talking about making a compromise and restoring peace.
But it's funny in this context, because it's hard to imagine them taking the time to hunt and dress a huge animal. After all, they never even bother to fish!
I think the did some fishing. In the middle camping trip Ennis is shown getting out of his truck with all his gear. The river was always near and they had to eat.
.......there's this tradition of guys who fish telling made-up storied about the big one that got away... so maybe it feels more natural to lie about fishing?
Instead I'll point to the double meaning in "That line hadn't touched water in its life!". It not only describes Alma's discovery, but is symbolic of the intended emotional and deeply personal connection that's never present between the two of them in all of Ennis's and Alma's marriage.
Instead I'll point to the double meaning in "That line hadn't touched water in its life!". It not only describes Alma's discovery, but is symbolic of the intended emotional and deeply personal connection that's never present between the two of them in all of Ennis's and Alma's marriage.
Oooh! Good one, Mikaela! If water is a metaphor for true love and passion and all that stuff ... then here it is again! Alma stands there washing dishes in her dull "society" water (i.e., tap water), furious and hurt that the symbol of her love for Ennis (the note) never in its life touched the kind of water that courses through Jack and Ennis' relationship.These points are fantastic, I never thought there was a deeper meaning in Alma's words.
By dly64
Another interpretation is that "perky" could represent a phallic symbol and the "caught a bunch of browns" could represent Jack. I will go no further with this interpretation.
By Mikaela
It suddenly made me link to the famous "A house divided against itself cannot stand". That's a perfect description of Ennis, IMO - he's been divided against himself since he met Jack, one part of him battling the other, and the foundations have crumbled day by day. Now at their last meeting he can't stand, and he can't stand it, any more.
They never had to say those three-little-words. They demonstrated the sentiment far better through their actions. And Ennis showed it through his suffering--collapsing, dry heaves, tears all point up the complexity and depth of what he felt for Jack. If he’d never met Jack, maybe he could have suppressed/denied certain parts of his psyche, but “once burned” by love....Imagine that the “cause” of your pain is also the only person you can turn to for comfort, the only person who understands. Ennis so desperately clutches Jack’s coat. Jack holds Ennis so tenderly.
“It’s a short story, honey, it was only about 3 seconds I was on that bronc.” >> “It was only about 3 months I was on that mountain. Next thing I knew...”
I was thinking of returning to one of the much-discussed lines in the film: I just can't stand this anymore, Jack - with Ennis crumbling to his knees. Thinking of how that statement and Ennis's inability to keep on his feet illustrates the double meaning of the verb "to stand".
It suddenly made me link to the famous "A house divided against itself cannot stand". That's a perfect description of Ennis, IMO - he's been divided against himself since he met Jack, one part of him battling the other, and the foundations have crumbled day by day. Now at their last meeting he can't stand, and he can't stand it, any more.
It is almost as if the story has bookends ... from the beginning of their affair (after their four year hiatus) to the last time they are together. Additionally, Ennis' collapsing into Jack's arms mirrors his collapse after he and Jack separate. The last time, however, Jack is there to catch Ennis. I think all of this symbolizes the end of their relationship in life (albeit unbeknownst to both of them). Ennis' collapse ... feeling like he did when Jack left him at BBM .... could be a foreshadowing of the pain when he finds that Jack has left him again.
This is why the point at which I always burst into tears is the dozy embrace. Well, for several reasons, actually. But a big one is the way, at the end, Ennis says "Gotta go, see you in the morning." Ennis always has to leave, and he always assumes they'll see each other in the morning. Once, they almost don't. The second time, they really don't.
And what are the Brokeback Coyotes symbolic of? They're predators, the treath to the flock and the killer of that particular sheep that serves as a warning and omen to Ennis after the FNIT/TS1.... So can the sentence symbolically be understood as Jack wanting to rope and tie and render inactive the forces threatening his and Ennis's love? Or is Jack's wish rather illustrating the certain unrealistic and dangerous element in his dreams: What would he ever do with a coyote, how would he manage to handle it, or that which it symbolizes; - should he manage to rope it?
Jack:Also, after Jack drives off, while he's crying, the line of the Emmylou Harris song that is playing during that scene is "...your laughter's like wind in my sails..." which I always took to be a nod towards the Jack/Wind relationship. And now Jack is obviously not laughing (it's actually the only time in the movie that we see him cry, isn't it?)
When Jack pulls up to Ennis’s house after the divorce, you can hear on Jack’s radio: “...went nuts for it!” >> “Jack went nuts for Ennis” (or vice versa]
And on top of that, I see the binoculars (or Aguirre's use of the binoculars- he wouldn't have seen Jack and Ennis together without them, unless he came up the mountain himself and happened upon them) as a representation of how society and government is stepping over their bounds in regulating the behavior of homosexuals: sodomy laws, not allowing homosexuals to marry, etc. Why should it even bother anyone? And yet they go at great lengths (i.e. use their big binoculars) to spy on and regulate even the most private and remote parts of human experience.
I think it is interesting that you use this analogy.There may be some truth in what you say. However, I want to avoid the expectation that BBM is a vehicle to express a larger social message. IMO, this film is a tragic story specifically about these two men who love each other, who live in a time and place where they don't know what to do with their love, and eventually hurt everyone around them, including each other. Although this is a simplistic way of describing BBM, I think it is the backbone of the whole story. (i.e. it is the personal love story between Jack and Ennis).Oh I definitely understand and hesitated to even include this, because I agree that BBM doesn't necessarily strive to make any commentary on society as a whole (outside of the story itself and its effect on the two men), just as some people are hesitant to read any deeper religious symbolism into it, either. But when I see those binoculars and how he used them- it has a great meaning for me personally. :)
Aguirre: Not much you can do about it down there neither, unless you can cure pneumonia. (as he is looking at Ennis, displeased, through his binoculars)[/b]
I've always taken this to be somewhat of a rebuttal to the "one shot thing" line. In other words, this "thing" is not going to go away just because you come down off the mountain. And also, that Jack (and Ennis, I suppose) are powerless to change the way they feel.
IMO, this film is a tragic story specifically about these two men who love each other, who live in a time and place where they don't know what to do with their love, and eventually hurt everyone around them, including each other. Although this is a simplistic way of describing BBM, I think it is the backbone of the whole story. (i.e. it is the personal love story between Jack and Ennis).
IMO, one of the most amazing things about BBM is that it is completely both at the same time. It is a personal love story with no overt message at all. If a Martian watched it, he/she/it would be oblivious to any larger political implications.
Meanwhile, the story subtly plays upon what viewers know about real life, and tells us something about what society imposes on gay people in general, in 1960s Wyoming as well as in many other eras and cultures. For example, the very fact that the final images involve closets -- the word we happen to use to describe hidden homosexuality -- is not the least bit accidental. The beauty is that it's never at all preachy or hit-you-over-the-head obvious.
(I apologize if this has been said before...)
Del Mar means island (isolated) in the sea (of homophobia, pain, loneliness) but mar also means damage (noun and verb), and Ennis certainly was damaged and never escaped it, and caused more himself, though never intentionally.
and the word is used in Annie's description of the dozy embrace: Nothing marred it - the damage both men carried didn't diminish the memory
Del Mar means island (isolated) in the sea (of homophobia, pain, loneliness) but mar also means damage (noun and verb), and Ennis certainly was damaged and never escaped it, and caused more himself, though never intentionally.
Another one: "Gonna snow tonight for sure." Snow was the harbinger of the early end of their summer on Brokeback, and here it's the harbinger of the early end of their relationship and Jack's life. Breaks my heart every time I hear him say it.
Del Mar means island (isolated) in the sea (of homophobia, pain, loneliness) but mar also means damage (noun and verb), and Ennis certainly was damaged and never escaped it, and caused more himself, though never intentionally.
Of course, it made me think of the double meanings of "Twist". Except there aren't only double meanings, but rather ten times double meanings. Now as far as I know, the name was used by AP because it is related to a rodeo rider's movement while on the bull. But in addition, any brief look at a dictionary would give the following other meanings that could also be relevant for Jack (in addition to a heap of others, that I couldn't immediately connect to him....)
* To wind together so as to produce a single strand
* To coil about something
* To interlock or interlace
* To turn so as to face another direction
* To turn or open by turning
* To wrench or sprain (........can you twist a heart??)
* To alter the normal aspect of
* To alter the intended meaning of
* A personal inclination or eccentricity; a penchant
* A dance characterized by vigorous gyrations of the hips and arms ;)
* An unexpected change in a process or a departure from a pattern: a twist of fate; a story with a quirky twist.
In addition, I recall that when I first joined the BBM fandom, there was some slight grumbling because some people took the "Twist" name to be hinting at something twisted, ie. unnatural - or as the dictionary would define it: "To alter or distort the mental, moral, or emotional character of." How weird that anyone could see the film or read the story and chose to interpret the name that particular way..... ::)
Okay I'm a slow reader! ;D I hope to get some of these sharp wits to comment on this line. Bartender, "Ever try calf ropin'?" Puleezzee!
Someone somewhere once noted that when Jack is talking to Lureen about Bobby's teacher he says "I complain too much." And the person who originally pointed this out said that this seems to be a quick moment where Jack is verbalizing one of his key character traits. He does complain and bitch quite a lot, as we all know.
So, it recently occured to me that a similar thing might happen with Ennis. A moment where he verbalizes something that is a major part of his character. During the painful post-divorce conversation with Jack, Ennis says "I don't know what to say...", which seems to be one of his defining characteristics (his silence, his difficulty expressing himself verbally, etc.). And then, when he tells Jack sorry, he says "you know I am" and then seems to try to give Jack a meaningful look in the eye. I think this might be some evidence of how much Ennis (throughout their relationship) relies on Jack to be able to read his very subtle signals, to understand him without Ennis having to verbalize things. He expects Jack to know him so well that he'll understand what Ennis means intuitively. Sometimes it seems like they can both sort of read each other's signals, thoughts and emotions. But, it seems like there are just as many times with their signals get crossed or confused. It's interesting how many questions and remarks that Jack puts to Ennis - and vice versa- how many statements Ennis makes to Jack - where they don't directly answer one another... or seemingly switch subjects... or just don't answer (verbally at least).
Wow! I just read this thread and my head is buzzing! My words are tripping over themselves. I LOVE to analyze things and I'm so happy that I found Bettermost and to know there are "people like me out there." (Is that a pun??) Anyway... referring back to earlier posts. It's funny but today for the first time (before I read this forum) I thought, Mar means water but also damage. Then I read it here, too.
It echos the moment when Ennis is sitting on the edge of the bed with Alma and she talks about being "lonely." It's been pointed out by some of our lovely BetterMostians that Ennis's face changes upon hearing the word "lonely" too. It's much more subtle in Ennis's case. But, I think this is meant to be a parallel between the boys long distance.by atz75
I just posted this in the new thread about Ennis's reaction to Jack's death... but I thought I'd post it here too.About the sorority conversation... I don't know enough about the politics of sororities to know much about the context of their conversation. But, the tone of voice is enough to imply that there's a bit of competitiveness. I certainly wouldn't call it a "catfight." I think they're just trying to figure one another out. I would think that the person who'd feel the most threatened by this conversation would be Jack. Clearly, the women and Randall are all college educated, so I'd think Jack would feel like the "black sheep" here once again. I actually think LaShawn is trying to reach out to Lureen a little bit by saying "we ain't quite sorority sisters...", implying that they are close to being so. I think primarily LaShawn is trying to be friendly and social. One of my favorite "double" meanings in LaShawn's conversation is when she says "we may just have to dance with ourselves..." It's one of the only allusions to something even vaguely lesbian in the movie. In the bar when Jack first meets Lureen there's a pair of women who seem to be walking around together and I've always wondered if we're meant to see them as a possible couple too. I think so much of this movie is about questioning typical and conventional interpretations of people and comments.
Maybe 'catfight' is a bit strong ;D Still, I don't find the scene at all friendly. No doubt Lashawn's intentions are OK, she simply talks so fast that she hasn't got the time to think what she is saying. But Lureen, says the screenplay, is bored stiff, and I do believe she feels insulted by Lashawns remark and feels the need to stress her own superiority. Jack, though detached, appears completely at ease to me - he doesn't seem the type to be impressed by academic titles.
The lesbian angle is an interesting one, hadn't considered that (but that's probably caused by the fact that to a gay man, lesbians may well be the most incomprehensible creatures on the face of the earth ;) )
The lesbian thing … I highly doubt it. Lureen is completely bitter because Jack is not attracted to her. As for LaShawn … she talks too much. I doubt that she is thinking about what she I saying. CLUELESS!!
IMO, the only reason why he asks LaShawn to dance is to spite Lureen.
From Amanda
I know that LaShawn didn't mean it that way and that Lureen probably didn't hear it that way... but still I think the double meaning is there.
The most ironic line LaShawn delivers, and hence another line with double meaning, is the complaint that the two husbands "Don't have a smidging of rhythm between them". In all likelihood, soon there's going to be quite a lot of rhythm between those two guys. And Jack actually seems to make that connection, too - at least IMO he does a little double-take at Lashawn's comment.
unwitting euphemism for "they have no interest in heterosexual sex" [ ] But your way works just as well!
The most unintentionally ironic line LaShawn delivers, and hence another line with double meaning, is the complaint that the two husbands "Don't have a smidging of rhythm between them". In all likelihood, soon there's going to be quite a lot of rhythm between those two guys.... And Jack actually seems to possibly make that connection, too - at least IMO he does a little double-take at Lashawn's comment.
I've seen others say that as well - but I honestly don't see why Jack would want to spite Lureen? I just don't see him as that kind of person, never actively spiteful.....even in those later disapponted years. He knows, none better, what the marriage has become and why. IMO he'd echo Ennis if he had to: Shut up about Lureen. This ain't her fault.
In my view, Jack asks Lashawn to dance in order to get out of an increasingly embarrassing and awkward situation, in order to have time to collect his thoughts a bit and regroup. Randall visibly checking him out, LaShawn contributing her cluelessly and increasingly ironic remarks, Lureen watching and adding her little barbed comments on the side; getting onto the dance floor with a woman who will manage to entertain herself completely seems like a good retreat option for Jack just there and then.
That's interesting, Mikaela. Much as I like Jack, I have the feeling he's very well capable of being Jack Nasty. His remark, to Ennis, about Lureen 'punching numbers' is hardly a very nice one. During the dance scene, in my opinion they are having a covert fight, and I always wonder if it is about Jack's homosexuality. Lureen puts a direct challenge to him: "Why do you think that is, Jack?".
And then he dances with Lashawn as a proxy for Randall. I doubt he'd have much opportunity to order his thoughts, with Lashawn chattering away the way she does.
During the dance scene, in my opinion they are having a covert fight, and I always wonder if it is about Jack's homosexuality. Lureen puts a direct challenge to him: "Why do you think that is, Jack?".
It's funny you should say that. Earlier, Ennis asks if, between Jack and Lureen, "it's normal and all?" Jack shakes his head yes. ... As she continues to "punch" those numbers in her adding machine, her hair gets blonder and blonder, her make-up thicker and thicker, and she becomes more and more bitter.
Yeah, I think Lureen's increasingly blond hair and brittle demeanor signals her growing dissatisfaction. I wish that, when Ennis asked if things were normal, Jack had just admitted outright that they aren't. I suppose he was trying not to trigger Ennis' startle point, but in this case it seems like Ennis would have felt reassured if Jack had been truthful.
Or could have Jack actually believed his sex life with Lureen was normal? I would hope not .... but you never know! :-\
That's one of the reasons why I think Jack compartmentalizes his life, actually. Like Jack's somehow able to put his whole life with Lureen into a little box that's separate from his love for Ennis, and manage as if it's normal. (That comment from Jack also suggests to me that Jack loses his control fairly gradually after Ennis's divorce... that Jack gradually has a harder and harder time faking his everyday life.)
From Katherine
I wish that, when Ennis asked if things were normal, Jack had just admitted outright that they aren't. I suppose he was trying not to trigger Ennis' startle point, but in this case it seems like Ennis would have felt reassured if Jack had been truthful.
From Stevenedel
His remark, to Ennis, about Lureen 'punching numbers' is hardly a very nice one.
From Stevenedel
During the dance scene, in my opinion they are having a covert fight, and I always wonder if it is about Jack's homosexuality. Lureen puts a direct challenge to him: "Why do you think that is, Jack?".
And then he dances with Lashawn as a proxy for Randall. I doubt he'd have much opportunity to order his thoughts, with Lashawn chattering away the way she does.
I think Lureen loves her husband till the end.
Lureen didn't have to suggest that Ennis go up to Lightning Flat. The phone call had reached its natural end already, but she gave Ennis that push. That was an uncommonly kind thing to do, I think.
I don't think the movie plays that scene with the "cold little voice" described in the story.
No, film!Lureen is not cold as snow - she's not frozen, - there would be no tears if she were. And on the basis of her love for Jack she shows a decency and compassion to Ennis that I don't think a lot of people could have managed to show in similar circumstances.
Absolutely. I think Film Lureen is another big departure from Story Lureen. She's a little brittle on the phone, but who wouldn't be. Cold? No way. She's incredibly compassionate.
. . . I wonder if her "little voice as cold as snow" could be another reference to a (*cringe*) symbol: the snow/talk of snow that always comes when the relationship between Jack and Ennis comes to some kind of ending.
Could be. I haven't analysed the story as much as the movie. The movie breaks my heart but the story breaks my heart and fills me with grief. Ennis dreaming about Jack is what does it. ("sometimes the pillow was wet, sometimes the sheet...")
I have a slightly different interpretation of Lureen's phone conversation with Ennis. I don't think Lureen and Jack loved each other. I think they got together because they were both high from winning at the rodeo and wanted to celebrate. Jack's decision to be with Lureen IMO was motivated by her money and his loneliness at not being with Ennis. Plus the pregancy brought them together.
I think Lureen's tears were caused from a look back at her life with Jack. Their marriage was so passionless and routine they could "do it over the phone." Lureen was more interested in money than love. She could have had a better more loving life with Jack but didn't. When she talks to Ennis she realizes the love she wanted from Jack was given to Ennis instead of her. Movie Lureen says, "Get in touch with his folks. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out. About the ashes, I mean." The paragraph from the story is, "[Jack's parents] will be [in Lightnin Flat] until they die. I never met them. They didn't come down for the funeral. You get in touch with them. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out."
But I'm still not sure why Lureen says, About the ashes I mean. She's clarifying she's talking about the ashes, but what else could she be referring to?
That line stumps me, too. (Unless she means that Jack’s wishes were really to be with this man on the end of the line … ?
I think you're on to something in what you say last. I think Lureen feels that just saying "They'd appreciate it if his wishes were carried out" might be interpreted as her yielding too much place, extending more open-ended acceptance than she intends to.
After all, it probably was Jack's wish to be with Ennis, at their favourite place - and if so he may have had other wide-ranging wishes relating to the relationship with this man. Lureen can't know what wishes those were, what Jack may have told his parents or Ennis.
By qualifying her statement to be sure Ennis knows it's specifically about the ashes, she's at the same time saying she's not willing to give up *her* considerable claim on Jack, her part in his life story - not willing to reduce the importance of their marriage. Whatever else Jack got up to in life - she loved him and she held on to him even when things got difficult. She's not about to accept someone usurping her place at this point in time even if that conceivably might have been Jack's wish.
Yes, a covert fight, sure enough..... I don't think Lureen is (yet) aware of the homosexuality - I think that comes later, probably just before or just as she learns of Jack's death. I've got nothing really to point to as evidence for that - only that I feel certain Lureen would have divorced Jack if she'd known - and I feel equally certain that she *knows* by the time Ennis calls her. She knows by then about Jack being gay, but who he *loved* doesn't fall into place until the conversation with Ennis.
(...)
I think Lureen loves her husband till the end. If she didn't, she'd have divorced him. She's goodlooking, she's got money, she's got brains, she's not the kind of woman who'd keep a loveless marriage going for the sake of their son, her folks would be thrilled if she showed Jack the door, - she could have found a new husband easily. And if Alma could divorce Ennis, society's disapproval would hardly have deterred Lureen. Yet she and Jack stay married till the end. I see only one reason for that, - Lureen loves her husband. Another part of the nuanced tragedy that BBM presents to us. Lureen drowns herself in work and number-crunching and visits to the hairdresser, and while the bitterness grows she still hopes he'll one day love her back, hopes for a change, - that doesn't come.
But I don't see their marriage as a very loving one; more like a marriage of convenience between two people who like each other well enough. I think she gives up on Jack fairly early on; just think of the tractor demo scene, and her disappointed look when the two farmers make disparaging remarks about her husband. The screenplay at this point actually describes Jack as "boyishly inane". From what she tells Ennis, we can deduce that she saw Jack as a boozer who lived in a fantasy world. In their marriage, the traditional male/female roles are completely reversed, and the one time they aren't, i.e., when Jack confronts LD during the Thanksgiving dinner, is the one time during their marriage when we see her being visibly pleased with him.
You must have been reading my mind! Darn if I didn't say the exact same thing in a different thread a few moments ago!
I've been practising my ESP, and its paying off... ;)
Where do I find your comment, I'm curious... ?
Rather scary ... we hit a lot of the same points! ;)
Thanks for the post. I couldn't agree more. And well... if we came to the same conclusion independent of each other, it figures that it's true, doesn't it... :)
Of course, both "stemming the rose" and "wring it out" sound a lot more like their sexual meanings than what TJ says they mean, especially in this context. So maybe Annie just made them up?
I had heard "wring it out" before ... and let's just say it had a sexual connotation. As for “stemming the rose” … I would take it in a very similar way. Goofing around? Maybe … but “goofing on each other” is more like it. ;)
(TJ was from Oklahoma, not Wyoming... ;D
His points were interesting, but it's also possible that the meanings of slang phrases vary from one part of the West to another.
ALMA
As far behind as we are on the bills, it makes me
nervous not to take no precaution....
ENNIS looks her in the face.
ENNIS
(stiffens)
If you don't want no more of my kids, I'll be happy
to leave you alone.
ALMA
(under her breath)
...I'd have 'em, if you'd support 'em....
ENNIS rolls off her. ALMA rolls on her side with her back to ENNIS, and with a look of despair on her face reaches
up and turns off the bedside lamp. WE HEAR:
JUDGE
(voice over)
...Custody of the two minor children…
117. INT: WYOMING COURTHOUSE: DAY: NOVEMBER 6: 1975
ENNIS and ALMA in a bleak little courtroom: divorce court. Grim. ALMA looks sad, but determined...cries quietly.
ENNIS looks miserable.
JUDGE (CONT’D)
…Alma Del Mar Jr. and Jennifer del Mar, is awarded
to plaintiff. Defendant is ordered to pay child
support to the plaintiff in the sum of $125 per
month, for each of the minor children until they
reach the age of 18 years...
(raises gavel)
...Del Mar divorce granted, this 6th day of
November 1975.
Just a clarification, when Ennis spoke those words about "you may be a sinner" they had together drunk about a half-bottle of whiskey (it could have been Wild Turkey, but I think it was not that good quality, definitely bourbon whicsky tho).
OK...here's more!
When Ennis and Jack are parting company after their time on BBM, Ennis says at one point near the truck, "Like I said, Alma and me, we's gettin married in November...."
Clearly they had a conversationless trip down the mountain, a berating from Aguirre, and a prospect of separation; three of the most uneasy things for a person--moving, changing jobs, changing relationship. I think Ennis was reaching out for a comment from Jack; Ennis was looking for some way to begin a dialog. He was fishing for 'are you sure you want to do that?' or 'can I come up for the wedding?'...something to carry the comment to the next level. The more simple interpretation and hence the double meaning is that Ennis was drawing his line in the sand, telling Jack his life is planned and in a different direction.
I think it is the former. This is classic ennis--completely inward with his inner door cracked ever so slightly, peering out, hoping that someone will kick it open. Such is what makes him totally irresistible.
I wonder if important silences throughout the film could be an interesting side-topic here.
I wonder if important silences throughout the film could be an interesting side-topic here.
No, Sue, I'm sure I would have remembered it if Jack had said that in the movie! That was one of the things left out, along with Jack killing the eagle, K.E. beating up his brother (and vice versa) and Mr. Twist pissing on his son.
However, Jack did kick the tires of the truck at the beginning of the movie, and he was somewhat disparaging of women, saying "You and Alma, that's a life" causing Ennis to respond "Now you shut up about Alma, this ain't her fault."
A difference I noticed upon yesterday's reading concerned a difference between the SS and the film about how much Aguirre actually observed through his binoculars.
In the film, we realize we are viewing the happy tussle through Aguirre's eyes and are left with an implication that they were being watched. This relates nicely to how they 'felt themselves' invisible.
However, in the ss, Annie tells us that Aguirre watched/waited for ten minutes, I believe, until they had zipped up before making his presence known and delivering the news about Uncle Harold.
You would think so. But I was thinking about how the price tag was still on the tackle after five years, and how Alma's note had never seen water in its life, and how they never brought any fish home.
In a long-ago comic thread, there was a line advising that cowboys on fishing trips should: "Always bring some fish home. Make sure it is thawed by the time you get there."
The short story has two things to say. In the reunion motel scene Ennis asks Jack if he had been doing it with other guys. "'Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own," suggesting Jack as top. A bit earlier, however, Jack compliments Ennis on his sexual performance, saying, "Christ, it got to be all that time a yours ahorseback makes it so goddamn good"--Jack as bottom.
Both the short story and the film leave the question up in the air, but given the character of the two men--Ennis' repression and fear of things gay versus Jack's easygoing and accommodating nature--is it not likely that Ennis was, at least usually, the top, and Jack went along with it?
"Swear to god I didn't know we was goin a get into this again--..." but Jeff Wrangler's (#284) posting has called me back. What I said when I originally asked who the top was (#281) stands for the point I was making there, but it does not say how I really feel about the issue. Most/all gay men recognize that JW's analysis is definitely the correct one. Straight people, JW is telling it the way it is; believe him. And he is telling it in an outrageously funny way. I crack up every time I read it. If you missed the humour you're missing a lot.
I want to add one thing that confirms Jeff Wrangler's comment "...a guy can fuck another guy and still avoid seeing himself as gay, whereas only queers take it up the ass--as Ennis might have put it" Yes, Ennis might well have put it that way. Consider what he says to Jack in the final argument: "I know what they got in Mexico for boys like you." Boys like you?? In his anger Ennis discounts Jack's manliness, alludes to Jack's getting fucked, puts a distance between the two men, and reinforces the 20-year fiction that he is not gay while Jack is.
In the film we have basically 3 things to look at: Jack with Ennis, Jack with the hustler, and Jack with Randall. Jeff Wrangler has pretty well explored movie Jack and Ennis. Regarding the Mexico scene, the man is obviously a hustler, not only because he addresses Jack as Senor, but because he is standing waiting under a light on a gay cruising street. The only thing missing from the street were twinks, and one would have expected them to be there. (Google <twink gay slang> if you don't know what I mean.) Given the sexual stereotyping in the US then (and now?) and the widespread Mexican phenomenon of romantic relationships between older men and adolescents, if Jack had been wanting someone to fuck he would have looked for a young man who appeared the (stereotypical) type to be his bottom. But he chooses a strongly-built older man instead. That told me what Jack was looking for more than the expression on his face.
JW, is "riding dick" a local expression for sucking cock? I've never heard it before. Here "riding" is associated with something else--like riding bareback (not a no-no in BBM days).
About some Double Meanings:
The over-obvious loquacious plumber butt shoveling asphalt w/Ennis: “…I’m getting’ too old to be breakin’ my back shoveling asphalt.”
...
Bumping for Throwback Thursday, following Serious Crayons' lead! Is this the topic you were trying to find, Katherine?
The tar-spreading scene,.... . I have always loved that it seems like such a little throw-away situation-establishing scene, yet is so packed with meaning and nuance.
That is a reference to the tar-spreading scene, but it's not an extended discussion of it. I have always loved that it seems like such a little throw-away situation-establishing scene, yet is so packed with meaning and nuance. When Casey Cornelius first pointed it out, it opened my eyes to the possibilities of other subtle double meanings and subtle symbolism running through the whole movie. Of which, of course, there are tons.
Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on July 08, 2006, 01:35:14 am
? Jack is still a potato!
Is that why Ennis sometimes calls him Spud, as in "Somethin' I've been meaning to tell ya, Spud?"