I have been called “ruthlessly unsentimental.”
Hello.
I was reading a post on the IMDb board about the awkwardness between Jack and Ennis at the truck when they had come down from the mountain. I thought I could offer a response. Before I knew it, my response was rather long-winded and I thought it might make a good introduction for me to this board. OK? Here it is...
I know I’ve posted a long-winded spiel on the boys’ love. And I’m sorry if it’s been a little too analytical, but then again, I have been called “ruthlessly unsentimental.”
Can we just call you Ruth for short? ;D
Are you saying my folks just stopped at "Ruth?"
How 'bouts "Ruthlessly" as a compromise?
YEE HAW - great post Ruthless!
Welcome to you :). I do hope we get to keep you, feed you beans and cherry cake, a little whiskey ;). It's posts like yours that have us falling in love with the movie all over again. Look forward to reading more!
W
Well, I'll have a cup of coffee, but I can't eat no cake (or beans) just now. Thank you.
I'll try if I can to keep my posts shorter than this one.
Then Jack, Jack who had just dismantled their life together, comes up and makes a game of it. Sure, we all know Jack was just trying to get in a playful tussle, but it was the wrong time for it. Ennis wasn’t ready for leaving the mountain and he had no idea what lay ahead in the real world for him, or for him and Jack. So he lashed out at the object of his disillusionment (at that time) –- Jack. ...
...When they got back to Jack’s truck, watch Ennis very closely. Look at his body language and the few words he uses. And remember he had just had the wind knocked out of him by having his life with Jack abruptly ended. And, what did Ennis always allow Jack to do? What did Ennis always WANT Jack to do? Take the lead. And this is where Jack made the biggest mistake of his life, this is where he failed Ennis the most.
... Ennis was just begging for Jack to take the lead and to say something – ANYTHING – about their relationship. Ennis needed this more than anything else.
Ennis doesn't punch Jack because he's angry at himself or can't deal with his own feelings; he punches Jack because he's angry at Jack for not appearing equally devastated.
When they're parting in town, Ennis is NOT eager to cut the ties and get away and go back to his other life, as some have suggested.
On the contrary, he lingers there, hoping Jack will break the communication barrier. His "And you?" his hesitant, "Well, I guess I'll see you around, hunh?" his long pause before turning and walking away ... he's desperate for Jack to acknowledge what they have between them, because Ennis can't do it alone.
Ennis needs Jack to take the lead, and not just because Jack is better at it and has done it all along. In this case, Jack is the only one who could say something because so far he hasn't, and Ennis can't take the risk of exposing his feelings to someone who, at this point, from what Ennis can tell, may not clearly reciprocate.
The first time I saw it, I was just letting the story unfold for me - I hadn't read the short story yet so I knew nothing of what was to come. The second time, I saw it very Jack-centrically.
Do you know, Ruthlessly, that all this time, I've never properly seen this movie from Ennis' perspective?
it's Ennis who is making little gestures and speaking little words of love or affection -- Ennis starts the playful tussle by tapping Jack... Ennis, like a wide-eyed little boy, shows Jack the piece of hail -- lookey how big this one is! -- while Jack just tends to the business of getting them secured in the tent... Ennis is the one who dismisses Jack's "f- Aguirre" comment -- by saying "What if we need to work for him again?" -- ENNIS is the one who actually verbalizes that they may be together again after this summer... Ennis teases Jack about his harmonica playing... and Ennis is the one who initiates the dozy embrace (which I believe is properly placed at this point in the film). Post-SNIT, it's Ennis who does all of the overt affection showing.
But the interesting irony here is that Ennis pushes people away from himself. Often times people become what they fear or hate the most. Ennis became what he believed he "was worthy of" -- being abandoned. And he himself ends up doing the abandoning -- most importantly, on an emotional level.
Just as Ennis expects abandonment, I think Jack expects rejection.
Just as Ennis expects abandonment, I think Jack expects rejection.
A really excellent observation! He sure does get it doesn't he? He's always marginalized.
BTW -- I don't take either Ennis' or Jack's side in the film. I just take it all for what it's worth. In my post I was just pointing out that Jack failed Ennis at the most crucial moment. I didn't mean to imply that the relationship failures were all Jack's fault. Just that both boys had their hands in the proverbial coffee pot -- and bucket, for that matter. (Although it does seem that Ennis takes most of the heat for it.)
(Although it does seem that Ennis takes most of the heat for it.)
I wonder if those of us who do find ourselves defending him more often and vehemently than we do Ennis do that because we relate more to having been rejected than having been abandoned?
Great thread! Hey, Ruthlessly, you might consider changing the subject line to entice others.
you might consider changing the subject line to entice others.
For some reason, this sort of explation doesn't apply to me. No events in my "real life" would predict a greater empathy for Ennis -- in fact, according to Barb's reasoning I would be a Jackophile. I don't know exactly what causes those preferences. (Well, OK, I do have one theory, but it's too shallow to get into here.)
When they first met, they checked each other out, on a couple of levels. For example, before they went into Aguirre’s trailer, I think that Jack was looking at Ennis and wondering “Who is this guy who may be here to get MY job?” Jack worked alone the summer before. One job for one guy. And, Jack knew that Aguirre had blamed Jack for the sheep loss the previous summer. In the trailer, he looked relieved when Aguirre announced it was going to be a two-man job this summer.
I'm just kidding.
Really, I am open to suggestions. :-\
Katherine,
I want to hear your theory. Nothing you say is going to be too shallow, seriously.
I agree Barb's explanation probably applies to some people, but I don't think I am one of them. I can’t say that I have experienced abandonment in my life. I love both Jack and Ennis and can see myself being Jack or Ennis in different situations, but I have to say that I care for Ennis more. I am struggling to understand why the movie has such an impact on me and why particularly Ennis made my heartache.
Ruthlessly, how do you see Ennis explaining his feelings to himself? As Mikaela put it yesterday, Ennis would have to be sleepwalking not to notice that what he feels Jack approximates love, even if he calls it "this thing" instead of that actual word. That's exactly how I see it -- if his feelings are that obvious to viewers, if his behavior shouts "love" at every turn, how could he fail to recognize that himself? But my understanding from your post is that you don't think Ennis admits to himself that he loved Jack until the end, because doing so would force him to consider the possibility that he is "queer." Right?
Really, I am open to suggestions. :-\
How about "It wasn't all Ennis' fault after all" :D ;)
J
PS: Ruthie, did you get to see the alternate scene of Ennis Crying, or what? I thought you might be interested since your OP addressed the finding the shirts scene... I am interested in hearing what you thought of it if you did see it! ??? :)
Jane
Ok, instead of finding in this thread and quoting the passages where this was mentioned, (never enough time, never enough) I would just like to throw this out there: after the punch, after they leave their campsite, after they go up to the sheep, with the mules and all their equipment, and gather the sheep, and get the sheep (the whole thousand a them!) down the mountain, and back to the jump-off spot, a lot of time must have passed. As in, could they really have done all that in one day? Did they perhaps have to overnight it somewhere, either with the sheep up on Brokeback, or ??
If they did take more than one day to accomplish all that, do you think that they just stopped speaking to each other until they parted by the truck, or ??
Ennis conquered this bear (OMT, Ennis' fears) by defiantly walking past him, determinedly holding Jack (the shirts), sort of in public.
How about "It wasn't all Ennis' fault after all" :D ;)
Finally, to everyone... Is JakeTwist's thread title OK with everyone? And just HOW do I change the thread title? And, how do I insert a link to a thread into a post?
The fact that Ennis didn’t verbally respond to "Sometimes I miss you so much..." always bugged me.
Jack, through his failure at this point, set them up for twenty years of Ennis’ fears being magnified and his paranoia increasing, until it got to the point that it could not be overcome.
If they were trying to keep up the pretense, then how does that reconcile with a prior camping trip when Ennis asks Jack does her ever get the feeling that people "know" -- ok now that is yet another line you and I can discuss back and forth Katherine, because to me Ennis' saying that is kind of an admission that there is someting to "know".
Does Ennis think that people "know" that he does things with his best bud Jack?
or
is he thinking that they "know" that he is homosexual?
If it is the latter, then why does he blow up at Jack during the fight "All them things that I don't know, could get you killed if I should come to know 'em"? Because that line has been explained to me as: the reason Enns blows a gasket is bcz if Jack goes to Mexico to visit male prostitutes that makes Jack gay, and if Jack is gay ergo Ennis is gay too.
Huhmmmm.
Back to your previous post, Ruthlessly, and your analysis of why Ennis doesn't recognize that he loves Jack. Your individual arguments make sense, but overall I respectfully disagree about what they add up to. That comes from my belief that Ennis is, well, hypocritical. When he says "You know I ain't queer," he is only slightly more sincere than Jack saying "Me neither" -- and Jack isn't sincere at all (he's just trying to calm Ennis). They're both posturing. Ennis holds an image in his mind of "queerness" and all the unappealing things he connects with that term and wants disassociate from. But deep down he knows full well he's attracted to Jack and to men in general -- he's may have been desperately repressing it for years because he's ashamed of it, but it hasn't escaped his own notice -- and he understands what that implies. (We see him in the act of repression in the scene where Jack momentarily loses control of the crow-hopping horse and then rides away, and Ennis leans out to check him out as he rides off, then half a second later catches himself and turns back to the dishes.)
When he tells Jack about his fears of what would happen if "this thing ... grabs hold of us" it's because he doesn't trust himself to keep his feelings hidden and controlled. And with good reason -- he failed to do just that in the parking lot the day before. And years later, when he asks whether Jack worries about people in town and out on the pavement "knowing," it's an indication that Ennis himself "knows."
As for love, though I think it's possible for people to fail to recognize other people's love when it's under their noses, I don't think I agree that people often fail to recognize their own love. It's such an intense, thrilling, painful, overwhelming feeling -- hard to ignore. It grabs hold of you! In the wrong place and wrong time! It can make you cry in an alley, pine for somebody for four f'in years, get all excited when you think you'll finally see them, sit there all day peering out a window, take the stairs two at a time and throw yourself into their arms, risk alienating your wife, risk losing your job, risk people finding out the one thing you can't face anybody knowing. And despite all these dangers you light up with joy when you come in contact with the person you love. It contradicts my understanding of human nature to think of people behaving in all those ways without noticing they're doing it and guessing what it all adds up to, whatever name they choose to give it.
So I think what Ennis realizes at the end is that he shouldn't have let his fear and shame stand in the way of his love for Jack, that he should have honored that love rather than tried to hide it and follow society's rules. That's why the question he asks Alma Jr. is whether this Kurt fella loves her. He has come to see that love outweighs all other considerations.
But visiting the Twists is sort of Ennis' coming out, and defiantly walking past Mr. Twist with shirts in hand, sheltering but not hiding them, is a good way to illustrate that he can finally, to some extent, under extreme circumstances anyway, face the prospect that people "know."
...since if understand her correctly -- and I know, Jane, you'll correct me if I'm wrong -- she's been known to argue more or less the opposite position on that point; but she is very open-minded :D :-*).
I wonder if those of us who do find ourselves defending him more often and vehemently than we do Ennis do that because we relate more to having been rejected than having been abandoned?
Ruthie you and I see eye to eye on just about every aspect of this masterpiece, except for one or two little things...
#1: this is sooo minor, I am almost embarassed to bring it up, but... why do you say Ennis' fears are being magnified and his paranoia is increasing?
#2 ... but please to explain, (and maybe you can!) how the following scene fits together with your masterful analysis, I think there is some contracdiction happenin' here, no?
If they were trying to keep up the pretense, then how does that reconcile with a prior camping trip when Ennis asks Jack does her ever get the feeling that people "know" -- ok now that is yet another line you and I can discuss back and forth Katherine, because to me Ennis' saying that is kind of an admission that there is someting to "know".
Does Ennis think that people "know" that he does things with his best bud Jack?
or
is he thinking that they "know" that he is homosexual?
If it is the latter, then why does he blow up at Jack during the fight "All them things that I don't know, could get you killed if I should come to know 'em"? Because that line has been explained to me as: the reason Enns blows a gasket is bcz if Jack goes to Mexico to visit male prostitutes that makes Jack gay, and if Jack is gay ergo that means Ennis is gay too.
Huhmmmm.
Hi Barb:
I know I'm late in replying to this, but just to let you know: your theory is dead accurate in my case. I totally relate to Jack (is it maybe a bit obvious, y'think?) ;D for the reason that you state.
J
I think it’s all about confusion, misreading each other, each guy not fully understanding himself let alone the other. I think this day in the film is when Jack made the biggest mistakes of his life, mistakes that would haunt them both until the end.
To me, it’s all about their love for each other. When did each fall in love with the other, when did each realize that he had fallen in love with the other, and when did each realize that the other had fallen in love with him? These are the key questions.
When they first met, they checked each other out, on a couple of levels. For example, before they went into Aguirre’s trailer, I think that Jack was looking at Ennis and wondering “Who is this guy who may be here to get MY job?” Jack worked alone the summer before. One job for one guy. And, Jack knew that Aguirre had blamed Jack for the sheep loss the previous summer. In the trailer, he looked relieved when Aguirre announced it was going to be a two-man job this summer. But Jack also was checking Ennis out in an attraction sense – the shaving in the mirror shot. And each stole a glance at the other during Aguirre’s phone call – at each “No.”
Then they go to the bar, Jack works his can opener and tries to get Ennis to open up. Jack kept this up all the time on the mountain. And Jack opened himself up to Ennis, even though Ennis hardly ever asked Jack a question that was related to who Jack was as a person. Uninterested? Hardly. Ennis is the one who kept going out of his way to please Jack – trying to get soup, seasoning the food, checking out the tent, etc. But Jack just went along with the flow.
They each played courting games with the other -- Jack with his ‘yee-haw’ dance and his music, and Ennis with his opportunity comment. They were both getting to know each other as friends, and their attraction was growing. But I think with Ennis it was a love attraction that was growing based on what he did for Jack, and I think with Jack it was more of a sex attraction. Jack initiated the sex in a really overt way. I’m not surprised that the sex happened in the first tent scene, but I am surprised as to how Jack initiated it. He could have gotten his clock cleaned and worse.
Then the “queer” scene… parameters were set up. There’s disagreement on exactly what those parameters were, but they were limitations – for the time being, at least. In the second tent scene, Ennis absolutely melted into Jack’s arms. For him, not only had this great guy become his friend, but also his lover. This is where I believe that Ennis fell in love with Jack. Ennis had a specific point where it all changed for him – or it all culminated. And Ennis is the one of them who weaved a love relationship for the rest of the time on the mountain. He’s the one who made gestures and spoke certain words that show that he was in love and was building it further. Jack was much more lackadaisical about it. I don’t think this meant that Jack wasn’t experiencing love for Ennis, but I do think that Jack was so comfortable in the relationship, first as friends, and then as lovers, that he was just going with the flow. So much so that I think Jack just had a natural assumption after some point that it would continue post-mountain. I don’t think Ennis was even thinking of post-mountain. He was so caught up in their private, idyllic home life that they had established. This is why Ennis is the one who got smacked right between the eyes with reality when Aguirre told them to come down early.
Did either of them know the other was in love with him? I don’t think Ennis would have called it “love.” This is his character and it’s consistent throughout the movie. Even at the final lake scene, he couldn’t admit “love,” and he tried to appease Jack with fun and “a good time” from previous times. But not love.
I think that once Jack came to the point of realizing that he was in love with Ennis, that he just naturally felt that Ennis was in love with Jack. And when did Jack realize that he had fallen in love with Ennis? I believe at the dozy embrace. I believe the dozy embrace took place after they untangled the Chilean sheep and immediately before Ennis spent the night in the pup tent, waking up to the snow. I believe this is why Jack flashed back to this scene (from the final lake scene) – because it’s the moment he realized that he had fallen in love with Ennis.
So now, Ennis wakes up in the snow, Aguirre comes by again to tell Jack to take the sheep down, Jack starts dismantling the camp, and Ennis returns to camp. What does Ennis find? He finds Jack taking down the home they had built together. Notice that it appears Ennis did nothing at all to help take down the home that he himself (mainly) had set up for them… at least, after it had been set up, he’s the one who cared about the details. And Ennis found Jack taking it down very nonchalantly. And why shouldn’t he? To Jack it wasn’t an ending. He expected their relationship would continue. Jack’s just that way… the natural flow.
But Ennis had not even taken time to think about their relationship post-mountain. So he was smacked upside the head with reality. He had no time for closure. So he went off and sat first on the chopping block like a log waiting to be split, and then up on the mountainside to sit and think. And think he did. He did a lot of thinking – he’s a real thinker there -- probably more than he had done in the past year.
Then Jack, Jack who had just dismantled their life together, comes up and makes a game of it. Sure, we all know Jack was just trying to get in a playful tussle, but it was the wrong time for it. Ennis wasn’t ready for leaving the mountain and he had no idea what lay ahead in the real world for him, or for him and Jack. So he lashed out at the object of his disillusionment (at that time) –- Jack. This then threw Jack for a loop. Now Jack was confused. He didn’t understand what Ennis was going through. For all Jack knew, Ennis was making a strong statement that he’s going back to the real world, and he’s a real man, and “get the f off of me” -- which Jack couldn’t understand because Jack had just the previous evening realized his love for Ennis, and believed that Ennis loved him.
Now this was a big mistake on Jack’s part. But a bigger one was yet to come.
When they got back to Jack’s truck, watch Ennis very closely. Look at his body language and the few words he uses. And remember he had just had the wind knocked out of him by having his life with Jack abruptly ended. And, what did Ennis always allow Jack to do? What did Ennis always WANT Jack to do? Take the lead. And this is where Jack made the biggest mistake of his life, this is where he failed Ennis the most.
Ennis had done a lot of thinking in those last few hours on the mountain. He saw Jack dismantle their life together, he saw Jack make a game out of it, he saw Jack spit in front of him (spitting in the film always symbolizes a disgusting dismissal of someone or something that has just happened), and he saw Jack not take the lead at the truck scene. Ennis was just begging for Jack to take the lead and to say something – ANYTHING – about their relationship. Ennis needed this more than anything else.
But Jack was confused (and rightly so) about their last few hours, too. An he missed the big picture. Jack didn’t know anything at this time about Ennis’ great fears. Jack just made an assumption that their relationship would continue and that reality wouldn’t change it. So Jack missed out on Ennis’ clues. Jack didn’t see that Ennis was begging for Jack to take the lead.
Now, I’m not saying that had Jack taken the lead and said something that Ennis would have flown into Jack’s arms and said “Let’s live together, forever.” No. But, this was the point in the film where Ennis was his most available and where Ennis was at his most vulnerable. If Jack had said something like “You and Alma, that’s a life?”, then Ennis was at a point where he could have realized that and may have not gotten himself into that marriage. They could have gone on the rodeo circuit together and had good cover for their relationship, or they could have moved to another town besides Riverton and worked at separate ranches and gotten together as much more regular lovers while still not living together. And this could have led to a lot of other building up of that foundation that was started on Brokeback Mountain, a building that they failed to complete.
But Jack failed to see what was going on. He failed to see that he and Ennis were different. And the impact of this was never fully realized until the final lake scene when he verbalized it to Ennis. Jack is the one who should have taken the lead for closure and for continuance – in fact, Jack is the only one of the two who could have done this – and he failed. Instead of being able to have a relationship with Ennis through which Ennis’ fears would have been dealt with for the next twenty years, Jack, through his failure at this point, set them up for twenty years of Ennis’ fears being magnified and his paranoia increasing, until it got to the point that it could not be overcome.
So, I believe that Ennis “fell in love” in the second tent scene, without ever admitting it to himself, and I believe that Jack fell in love over their time on the mountain, and came to realize it at the dozy embrace. But when did each realize the other had fallen in love? Twenty f-in’ years later.
Jack just assumed they were in love on the mountain, but due to the last day together and the way they parted, it seems that Jack didn’t know what to think. And then four years later, he got the message that Ennis really did love him all along (the reunion kiss and the motel scene), but that was somehow skewed by Ennis’ denial of a life together at the reunion river scene. And it kept getting worse, not better. Until Ennis finally broke down at the final lake scene and told Jack that he was nothing, he was nowhere, and it’s because of Jack. Jack finally understood what Ennis’ love for Jack had done to Ennis all these years.
And Ennis, when did he realize Jack loved him? He got his first inkling of it from Cassie in the bus depot. Ennis apologized for not being much fun and Cassie told Ennis that girls don’t fall in love with fun. This is the connection to the previous final lake scene. Fun. “A good time.” Ennis would never admit to himself that he loved Jack and he certainly wouldn’t want to admit to himself that Jack loved Ennis because that would make Jack queer and that would make Ennis queer and that would violate the pact they made up on the mountain – we ain’t queer. No, Ennis thought it was all about fun and a good time. But now he first sees that Jack wasn’t in it for fun – heck, it was hell for Jack – Jack was in it for love. Cassie turned the light bulb on over Ennis’ head, she woke him up. And this continues with Lureen telling Ennis that Brokeback Mountain was Jack’s favorite place. And this continues with Old Man Twist telling Ennis that Jack talked about bringing Ennis up to the ranch. AND this continues with Old Man Twist telling Ennis about the other guy – because now that Ennis has been getting the message that it wasn’t just about fun for Jack, he now gets the message that Jack was in it for love, and without Ennis’ love, Jack had to look elsewhere, just as he had had to look elsewhere for the “fun” part of it, the Mexican prostitute.
But the whole thing culminates in finding the two shirts. From this moment on, there is no denying that Ennis has finally realized that what the two of them shared all along was love. A love that was fully realized only when it was too late.
I am going to go down through your points because it helps me to organize my thoughts.
As a brief prelude .... I think I understand Jack's psyche better than Ennis'. Most of my thoughts come from the viewpoint of empathy for Jack.
I see Jack's initiation as one of vulnerability. He carefully takes Ennis' hand and puts it on his cock.
IMO, the SNIT is when they both knew they loved each other (albeit Ennis could not admit that until 20 years later when it was too late).
They have the freedom of the mountain to explore and develop their love for each other.
BBM symolized freedom from societal constraints. Annie says in her short story (and I think it sums up their experience on the mountain beautifully):
" .... only the two of them on the mountain, lying in a euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of the vehicles on the plain below, suspended from ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours. They believed themselves invisible ....
Once they came down, societal mores were present. Ennis would have married Alma no matter what. Why? Because that was the expectation ... from society and himself.
Jack is initiating his desire to be with Ennis when he asks, "Are you going to do this again next summer?" Again, Ennis rejects Jack. When Ennis says, "How about you?" Jack says, in a vulnerable way, "I might be back. If the army don't get me." The pain in Jack's face is palpable.
Ennis wished he would have never let Jack out of his sight, that is true. Ennis breaks down when he sees Jack leave and tries really hard to convince himself that he should not have these feelings for a man (i.e. Jack).
But I don't think the outcome would have been any different. Ennis was too homophobic. Consider when Jack drives 14 hours to see Ennis after the divorce (in one of the most painful scenes of this film). Ennis is using excuses of his daily life, but his true motivation is evidenced when the truck drives by. He is fearful that someone will figure out that this man he is talking to is also his lover. Again, this scene represents another rejection.
This is another point in which I have a divergent opinion. I don't think Ennis' fears would have ever been dealt with. The image of Earl was branded in his mind. That recollection is the ghost in the room ... it is always there. The mountains symbolized a way for him to escape that fear ... to believe he and Jack were "invisible". To have any kind of a life together outside of the realms of the mountainside would have been impossible for Ennis.
I don't know, however, that either one of them was in it for "fun" or for the sex.
Had it only been that, Ennis and Jack would have quit each other long before. The truth was that each one "completed" and understood the other (the whole yin yang concept) in a way they found with nobody else.
They were each other's one-in-a-lifetime love (or soul mates, if you will). Jack goes to Mexico out of frustration and need. He beds down with Randall for the same reason (OT - notice how Jack reacts when Randall is talking to him. IMO, he is thinking of Ennis at that moment .... missing him so much that he "can hardly stand it."). At any time, if Ennis would have said the word, Jack would have dropped everything and everyone to be with the man he loved. Despite all of the times Ennis said "no", Jack kept trying. It is the final lake scene where I see Jack as resolved to the fact that he and Ennis will never have the life together that he had hoped for ("after all this time you never found anyone else to marry?") (OT - it is clear, at least for Ennis, that it is okay that each one has sex with women. Where Ennis draws the line is having sex with other men. That is why the whole "Mexico" revelation is so devasting to Ennis. He gave himself to Jack only - literaly and figuratively.)
When Ennis blames Jack for being the "way" he is .... he is denying his own sexuality. He is trying to come to grips that he loves this man. The reality is, it isn't Jack's fault or Ennis'. It is that they love each other and have no way to deal with it.
I completely agree with this statement. Finding those shirts is another heart wrenching scene. Later, when Ennis says, "Jack, I swear ....." he is vowing his love for Jack ... almost a wedding vow. How painful and lonely. Why so late? "If only .... "
Now I have written a long winded response. I felt compelled to respond .... don't know why, I just did (as evidenced by my staying up until the crack of dawn knowing I needed to get up a few hours later).
... So today I'd have to say I'm not an Ennis or a Jack, I'm both.
I can see vulnerability here. But taking a guy's hand and putting it "you know where" ;) is overt.
I think we see something similar here... but here, really well-defined terminology is important. I can go with "they each fell in love" here. But that's different from "they each knew they had fallen in love" and it's different from "each boy knew that the other guy loved him."
You've given (in a couple of places in your post) some examples of loving behaviors between them (as I have done in my post(s)). Each of them displaying loving behaviors is consistent with "they each fell in love" but it is not necessarily consistent with "they each knew they had fallen in love" or with "each boy knew that the other guy loved him." I don’t believe it’s correct to say that Ennis knew he loved Jack and then also to say that Ennis could not admit it. It seems more consistent with the character developed in the film that Ennis did not understand what it was that was between the two of them. To Ennis, love was a man and a woman getting married. He didn’t understand that's it's not what one does on the surface, it's what one feels under the surface (example – the three options he gave to Jack at the final lake scene, contrasted with Cassie picking up on that and explaining it to him in the bus depot). This was his big internal conflict -- always wanting to see Jack and do for Jack, but being unable to understand why.
Ummmmm... yes, they have the freedom to do this, and they do explore and develop their relationship (which is friendship and sexual)... but I can't tack on "their love for each other" because they don't understand their relationship this way. WE, the viewers, understand it this way. But the film does not portray them as understanding it this way. That's one of the key plots of the film -- Ennis' inability to understand and process his feelings for Jack, his inability to correctly name those feelings.
Yes and no. The reason they parted as they did is because of a failure to communicate, a failure to seek closure. Had they done that, things could have been different. As I said before, it's not that Ennis would have agreed to live together, but he was at his most vulnerable and he was at his most needy at that time. In his position, at that time, he could have made a different choice and that different choice is not limited to only one option, them living together, it could be as simple as deciding not to marry Alma.
But these are two different scenes. In the first, Ennis is at his most vulnerable and without the excuses of marriage, children and job. In the second, Ennis is not at his most vulnerable because he has the excuses of his children and his job (and just before this, he had the excuse of his marriage).
And yet they did have a kind of life together outside of the realms of the mountain. They saw each other 2-3 times a year for many years. That is one kind of life (a pretty sucky one, but Ennis sure seemed comfortable with it for quite a while – in fact, so did Jack until the post-divorce truck scene). Also, note that I did not say that Ennis' fears would have been dealt with on that one day at the truck, in fact, I said the opposite. I said that had Jack taken the lead to help Ennis to not make the choice to marry Alma, the kind of life that they had post-mountain (and they did have a kind of life post-mountain) could have been different and they could have dealt with Ennis' fear... day after day... year after year... I think we do agree that Ennis came to some kind of escape from his fear by the very end trailer scene... he certainly was able to deal with OMT... and so he could have come to that same point, but without the whole Alma, marriage, kids life that he chose to live because he was confused about what Jack felt for him, and he was confused because Jack failed to take the lead.
I may have worded this part poorly. I don’t believe that either of them was IN it FOR fun and sex. I believe that that's how Ennis compartmentalized his relationship with Jack. He didn’t file it under “love.” He filed it under “fun” and “sex.” But WE know that he misfiled it because WE know that what they had between the two of them was love. But had Ennis known that, he wouldn’t have misfiled it. He was a stickler for detail. He just wasn’t at a point in his emotional development to understand the details he was a part of.
First part, yes. Second part, no. I agree that on a spiritual level, each was the completion for the other; but, in their actual interactions with each other, neither completed the other at all. In fact, because of their failures to communicate properly all along, they disassociated each other. Remember them eating the elk? The elk is a symbol of their relationship, a poor substitute for what Jack really wanted -- soup, that is, a life together. And what did they do with the elk? They ate it up, bit by bit until it was all gone. The scene of them shooting the elk was significant for us to see Ennis providing for Jack (the text) and for us to see the poor substitute it was for Jack (the metaphor). Now that we know that they shot the elk, we have no need to see them eat it. But we do. Why? Because they're hungry (the text) and because they're eating away at their relationship (the metaphor).
(It's also interesting to note exactly where in the film we see evidence of the elk meat. In the eating scene we see elk meat hanging on a rack they built for it. And we see this same rack later on. But when has all the elk meat disappeared? And what happens right after that?)
Yep, yep and yep. But we have to ask why Ennis always said "no." The text is because of his marriage, his daughters and his job (and they are valid reasons), but the subtext is his fear of his homosexuality and its consequences. Similarly, we have to ask why it's OK to have sex with women, but not with men. And again, the subtext is his fear of his homosexuality and it consequences. If Jack is queer, that makes Ennis queer, and that's his fear. Fear is what controls Ennis. His sexual needs and desires are not his controlling factors. For Jack, they are big factors in what drives Jack. Jack said they're different. Ennis could make it, but Jack could not, on a couple of high altitude fs every year.
Exactly! And I'm not sure if by "fault" you’re referring to my comment about Jack failing Ennis at the truck, but if you are, I'm not saying that Jack's failure at that moment was the whole fault behind all of their problems over the years. I'm saying that Ennis' fears are behind their problems, as the most significant factor, and that Jack had the opportunity to catch Ennis at his most vulnerable and to ameliorate those fears... or at least to begin the process... but he failed to recognize the opportunity.
When Ennis said that he hadn't yet had the opportunity, the text is that he hadn't yet had the opportunity to be a sinner, the subtext is that he was a virgin, and the symbolism is that of the (missed) opportunity that lay ahead for them, for their future.
I don’t want to quibble over this interpretation because I think it's valid. I do take it a little differently, though. If we're going to pick out "vows" I’d have to go with the "We ain't queer" scene. Here they set up the parameters for their relationship and define themselves (albeit incorrectly, as Jack later determines at the post-divorce truck scene). I think that the "I swear" scene (after Junior leaves) is more of an indication to us that Ennis has now, after twenty years, come to the same realization about their vows that Jack did, that they were based on a lie. And so, "I swear" certainly could be a new and more honest affirmation of their vows from Ennis.
No one will ever accuse me of being short-winded. Personally, I'd rather have one long, detailed, well-articulated response than 100 short one-liners (such as "I disagree," or "In your opinion," or "Whatever!") Thanks and cheers to you my BBB! :)
I am glad for your thoughtful response. It is nice to discuss this great film with someone who is as passionate about it as I am!
I had spent over an hour responding to this note and my computer shut down on me! … I am going to start over again, …
… I was trying to be delicate in the description. I guess there is no way to make the word "cock" delicate. (I just thought it sounded better than penis).
We are both in agreement that Ennis would not have lived with Jack. Despite the communication (or lack thereof), IMO, Ennis would have still married Alma. Societal constraints and expectations dictated what Ennis would/ would not do. He was already engaged to Alma. He would have been unable to break it off with her to spend time or to be around Jack. He was so worried about what others perceived that he tried everything in his power to make himself invisible. So, although Ennis was "available" at that time, nothing would have changed.
I think we have divergent ideas here. Both Jack and Ennis had opposite personality traits. Yet, they understood each other in a way no one else could or ever would. They did not pull each other apart until they left BBM ... when the world around them dictated what they "should" or "should not" do. Ennis' inability to give himself freely to Jack and Jack's frustration and need tore them apart. However, they could not break from each other. They were in each other's blood (so to speak). Their need for each other could not be shaken no matter what happened.
I agree with you on this point. But I also think that Jack could separate sex from love. He did have needs that were not being met by Ennis. Ennis gave his body and soul to Jack (again, not knowing that it was love) and felt completely betrayed when he found out Jack had sex with another man. Yet it was Jack who kept working on the relationship. He was the one who kept it going. He could not "quit" Ennis.
I still believe that nothing would have changed. The romantic in me hopes that things would have been different. I just think that Ennis wasn't even close to the point where he would have considered breaking off his engagement to Alma.
Let's keep up the conversation. I love it! (It may be that I forget what I wrote tonight and have a different perception altogether tomorrow.
(Have I earned my user name yet?) ;)
Quotehe can finally, to some extent, under extreme circumstances anyway, face the prospect that people "know."
I agree. But you'd better watch out there. With all of those qualifications (finally, to some extent, under extreme circumstances) you're sounding like me. ;D
All of this goes back to the pact they made on the mountain. "I'm not queer." "Me neither." This is a pact between them that these behaviors of theirs can continue, but it can't be called "queer." Ennis' greatest fear is being queer ... being found out to be queer ... and all that that would mean (for example, deserving of death in some people's minds, including his father's – and he once said he thought his father was right. This was not a throw-away line. Nor was it relegated to its simple text. It had a subtext that would carry through to the Earl/Rich story. His father’s hatred was taught to Ennis, Ennis learned it, and he thought it was right, his father was right).
But when we get to "whatever name they choose to give it," that's where we need to look at the name Ennis chose to give it. He called it a "thing." He didn't say "love." I believe that this is because Ennis just is not capable of understanding just what it is ... or better put, that he is just not in a place in his life, in his development, to understand just what it is.
When he speaks of people "knowing," I believe, that to Ennis it means people "knowing that WE do this stuff that we're not supposed to be doing."
I really think that Ennis believes with all his might that his "thing" with Jack is a "thing" JUST with Jack.
yet he still acted with his standard knee-jerk reaction to Alma's desire to have him at her wedding. He's learning, no doubt, but he's still Ennis Del Mar.
I think we're confronting what may be the biggest and maybe most immutable divide among Brokies [Snip] It's about when we think is the point in the movie -- early on or at the end? -- Ennis knows he loves Jack and and/or knows he is gay. Whether he believes the "I'm not queer" or is just posing. Whether the Mexico threat is about homophobia or jealousy and whether his lakeside collapse is about facing his sexuality or the fear he's losing Jack. I'm in the early/posing/jealousy/fear of losing school.
This is why Ennis' anger at Jack in the final lake scene is not about jealousy. It's about fear. That's his controlling emotion. It's not that Ennis was jealous of Jack being with another man. It was that Ennis was mad as hell at Jack that he broke their one-shot pact, their "I ain't queer" pact. Because by breaking it, Jack said "I'm queer." And that would make Ennis queer. And his fears would not allow him to accept that reality.
I think we're confronting what may be the biggest and maybe most immutable divide among Brokies -- more so than whether we empathize with Jack or Ennis (though there's probably some overlap). It's about when we think is the point in the movie -- early on or at the end? -- Ennis knows he loves Jack and and/or knows he is gay. Whether he believes the "I'm not queer" or is just posing. Whether the Mexico threat is about homophobia or jealousy and whether his lakeside collapse is about facing his sexuality or the fear he's losing Jack. I'm in the early/posing/jealousy/fear of losing school.
I believe Ennis knew he was gay long before he met Jack. He'd felt attracted to men for years, maybe since around the Earl time -- which is why the nightmare of growing up with a father who hates homosexuality enough to torture somebody to death for it made Ennis so pathologically shy and socially awkward. He's had to constantly hide a part of himself, to repress his thoughts whenever they come up, literally out of fear for his life. And he has become very practiced at it, as the crow-hopping scene illustrates. But hiding it isn't just a practical safety precaution; that horrific upbringing also colored Ennis' attitude. He hates his sexuality, he thinks his dad was right. So he doesn't like to admit it to himself (unlike Jack, shows little inner conflict about it). But at some level, Ennis knows how he feels about men. Just as later, he knows how he feels about Jack.
I agree with most of what you say here -- he is terrified of being queer, and of being found out -- but not with your contention that he's so terrified he won't admit it to himself. Ennis may have attached all kinds of negative attributes to "queerness." But he also knows what it basically means -- a man who has sex with men. And he knows what he and Jack did last night, and that he wanted to do it then and to continue doing it. He realizes what that means. He doesn't want to slap the "queer" label on it, so he tries for a while to put those two ideas in separate compartments -- queerness is bad, being with Jack is good -- and manages to keep them tenuously separate (though not completely, hence his reluctance to party with the fire-and-brimstone crowd). But the dividers between these ideas gradually break down, increasing his fear that people -- on the pavement, in the white pickup -- "know."
It's almost impossible to imagine Ennis under any circumstances saying, "If this deep love I have for you, Jack, grabs hold of me at the wrong place, wrong time ..."
He can express love physically, but rarely verbally -- the closest he comes is the "sending up a prayer of thanks" scene. (Which does come awfully close; he tells Jack he is so happy to be with him again that he is thanking God for it -- yes, he follows with a harmonica joke ((because, again, he's not a verbally affectionate guy)), but the slight pause Ennis gives after Jack says "For what?" is like Ennis saying, "Well, duh!")
Anyway, there are plenty of stoic taciturn men who, though not conflicted about their sexuality, never use the word "love" to their partners -- yet nevertheless know they feel it. IMO, Ennis is one of those guys.
I believe he doesn't separate the two that distinctly. Yes, "knows" means knowing what the two of them do, but he realizes that has implications about both their sexuality.
When he asks if everything is "normal" between Jack and Lureen, it's because he knows it sure as hell wasn't normal with Alma. (And Jack lets him down here, too, IMO, by not admitting that his relationship with Lureen actually isn't ideal. Though Jack may just be trying to stay clear of Ennis' startle point.)
So he knows all these things as he goes along. After Jack's death, he realizes that hiding them was not worth losing the love of his life. Visiting the Twists, as I suggested earlier, means coming out to them. He's willing to face the Twists "knowing" -- in the kitchen, he realizes they both know, yet stays calm about it, doesn't run out and get himself beat up -- in order to do right by Jack.
Yeah, he reverts to his old ways, for about half a minute. His reflex is to tell her he's supposed to work -- because, in fact, he is. But since Jack's death he has been going over his mistakes, and realizing that his big one was putting other considerations ahead of love. He remembers this when he sees her disappointed look, and immediately changes his mind.
(Just thought of something. Since you’re a self-described romantic, wouldn’t it be even better if Ennis was saving his first, true “I love you” for when he meets up with Jack again, in spirit? That’s kinda precious, if you ask me. And people call me ruthlessly unsentimental… geez!)
In the lake scene, Ennis’s long balancing act cannot be maintained any more. The stress has been increasing and the fractures that have developed breaks everything apart to come crashing down around his ears. And as that happens, Ennis’s truly deepest fear is at long last made clear to him and comes to a point all at once, - the point that his homophobia, self-loathing and lack of self-esteem have been driving him towards, the point that his knowledge of loving Jack has been resisting and struggling against: Jack finally seems to be abandoning him. He seems to be losing Jack. And he *still* doesn’t know what to do or how to change…. I think I am grateful I shall never have to know what’s in Ennis’s mind and heart, as he drives away from Jack after the dozy flashback. That must be truly frightening and lonely places to be.
With that, Hi ruthlesslyunsentimental - good to make your acquaintance!
I completely agree with you that Ennis's anger and later break-down in the lake scene is not about jealousy. I think it’s only partly about fear, though. And *not* fear of being queer / being found out as queer,-but fear of losing Jack. I don't see the fear of being outed as the only overriding fear throughout Ennis's life – there’s a development as the years pass; his fear of being abandoned by Jack increasing over time. And at the Lake, Jack is standing there saying all this out loud: I've been going with others - you're too much for me – I’m not like you - I wish I knew how to quit you.
I agree with you concerning when Ennis falls in love. I agree concerning when he realized that Jack loved him. There’s a gap of nearly 20 years between the two events. I cannot pinpoint when, exactly, Ennis realizes that he loves Jack, but IMO it was early in the relationship. This is important to me because the knowledge of love intensifies Ennis’s fear of losing Jack, and his despair and desperation at being unable to do anything but what his homophobia dictates: Cut the connection, get married, stay married, pretend to being “normal”, meet way the hell out in the middle of nowhere, send Jack packing when he comes to Riverton, find a girlfriend, make himself about as accessible as the pope….. I believe as I do because I, like Katherine, cannot envisaging Ennis behaving the way he did, feeling like he did, responding physically and emotionally the way he did, and yet never reflecting about his emotions for Jack, never admitting to himself that the thing that grabs hold of him is love (or whichever word he’d care to use for that).
… I don’t think Ennis is in denial about himself – but he’s a master at repressing and shutting that part down in a deep dark recess of his mind, having been shown the need for doing so for his very own survival. I think he believes he could force it into submission, make it go away even, an effort that demanded a lot of his energy. Which is one reason (though not the only one) why he comes across almost as an emotionally clenched fist.
For admitting to himself that he’s queer doesn’t mean he’s anywhere near accepting it, or making his personal internal peace with it, though – not until the very end after he’s completely and utterly worn out. Ennis is a homophobe and is filled with self-loathing.
That being so, I completely agree Ennis deeply fears being found out and outed. Oh, how he fears that, and not mainly because of the threat of physical violence, but because of the horrible shame it would entail. He is prepared to watch Jack drive out of his life in -63 for good because of it.
Full paranoia strikes as Alma cons him into believing that she’s deduced it from an innocent error on his part – if she could figure it out, others can, too. (I’ve always held that Alma got her revenge and then some when she didn’t admit to Ennis just how she found out about him and Jack.)
So here is Ennis; on a day-to-day basis he’s dealt with his fear of being outed and his shame of actually being queer through some sort of balancing act: The more the fear and shame and paranoia press on his mind, the more he behaves in counterpoint. Making himself continually (and apparently increasingly) inaccessible to Jack. Not opening up to let Jack in on his emotions, not letting Jack see that it’s in fact nearly killing him to have to make it on those few meetings a year. Not responding when Jack talks of missing him. As they reach the breaking point he hurls threats and accusations. He’s constantly acting in his own worst interest, and he knows that. Is he punishing himself for being queer, thinking he deserves the misery he’s meting out? Is he distancing himself from the most loathed part of him (the queerness), and the most beloved (Jack), tangled up all in one as they are? Is he following his usual way of forcing those who care for him to quit him through his abandoning them first, emotionally and/or physically.
Is this just so much psycho-babble?
I’m getting to my conclusion of this far-too-meandering and too-incoherent post: In the lake scene, Ennis’s long balancing act cannot be maintained any more. The stress has been increasing and the fractures that have developed breaks everything apart to come crashing down around his ears. And as that happens, Ennis’s truly deepest fear is at long last made clear to him and comes to a point all at once, - the point that his homophobia, self-loathing and lack of self-esteem have been driving him towards, the point that his knowledge of loving Jack has been resisting and struggling against: Jack finally seems to be abandoning him. He seems to be losing Jack. And he *still* doesn’t know what to do or how to change….
I think I am grateful I shall never have to know what’s in Ennis’s mind and heart, as he drives away from Jack after the dozy flashback.
Jack took Ennis’ hand and put it on his…
… manhood … little Jack … 21st digit … bean stalk (get it? Jack’s bean stalk…) … Jack in the box … pride and joy … should I start a new thread?
I guess there's a lot I'd like to comment on, but there is the old, cold issue of time…….never enough. :( Katherine’s latest post says much that I intended to say – very well put! (I apologise that some of my post may seem to be repeating Katerine’s points – I wrote part of my response late last night but then didn’t have time to finish it till now. And of course………interesting things have happened here in the meantime!)
I know all too well how realistic it is that a person may have come to some hard-won and difficult self-realizations, and yet prove nearly unable to change, develop or take action based on the self-realization. To me it is entirely real, and more poignantly tragic, that Ennis *would* be conscious of the facts that he is queer, and that he loves Jack, - and yet based on his childhood conditioning and society’s general strictures be unable to take the consequences and make the changes that would award him that sweet life Jack talks of.
I'd like to mention up-front, though, that I don't think it's possible to reach a consensus on the topics under discussion here - they cut too deep and touch too personal places - and we all come at them from slightly different angles and with differing interpretations and emotions in tow. So rather than "counterarguments and refutations" I consider any comments I give to be explanations of my personal views, nothing more. I don't try to convince anyone to change their minds, and I am not insisting - ever - that my views are the "right ones".
I completely agree with you that Ennis's anger and later break-down in the lake scene is not about jealousy. I think it’s only partly about fear, though. And *not* fear of being queer / being found out as queer,-but fear of losing Jack. I don't see the fear of being outed as the only overriding fear throughout Ennis's life – there’s a development as the years pass; his fear of being abandoned by Jack increasing over time. And at the Lake, Jack is standing there saying all this out loud: I've been going with others - you're too much for me – I’m not like you - I wish I knew how to quit you.
I agree with you concerning when Ennis falls in love. I agree concerning when he realized that Jack loved him. There’s a gap of nearly 20 years between the two events. I cannot pinpoint when, exactly, Ennis realizes that he loves Jack, but IMO it was early in the relationship. This is important to me because the knowledge of love intensifies Ennis’s fear of losing Jack, and his despair and desperation at being unable to do anything but what his homophobia dictates: Cut the connection, get married, stay married, pretend to being “normal”, meet way the hell out in the middle of nowhere, send Jack packing when he comes to Riverton, find a girlfriend, make himself about as accessible as the pope….. I believe as I do because I, like Katherine, cannot envisaging Ennis behaving the way he did, feeling like he did, responding physically and emotionally the way he did, and yet never reflecting about his emotions for Jack, never admitting to himself that the thing that grabs hold of him is love (or whichever word he’d care to use for that).
As for my opinion about whether Ennis thinks of himself as queer or not: I believe he does, and survives through compartmentalizing his life – the everyday “straight” one, and the “queer one” with Jack. After all, he was given a strong reason to be agonizingly sensitive to the issue, to worry over it and reflect on it, and to be on guard for any signs of “queerness” in himself – through his father’s callous and inhumane action towards his sons. I don’t think Ennis is in denial about himself – but he’s a master at repressing and shutting that part down in a deep dark recess of his mind, having been shown the need for doing so for his very own survival. I think he believes he could force it into submission, make it go away even, an effort that demanded a lot of his energy. Which is one reason (though not the only one) why he comes across almost as an emotionally clenched fist.
For admitting to himself that he’s queer doesn’t mean he’s anywhere near accepting it, or making his personal internal peace with it, though – not until the very end after he’s completely and utterly worn out. Ennis is a homophobe and is filled with self-loathing.
That being so, I completely agree Ennis deeply fears being found out and outed. Oh, how he fears that, and not mainly because of the threat of physical violence, but because of the horrible shame it would entail. He is prepared to watch Jack drive out of his life in -63 for good because of it.
I also agree his paranoia increases over time. As he has to admit to himself that he is not only queer, but unable to contain and repress his inclinations even after having returned back to “real life” from Brokeback, the risk of being found out, in his view, increases correspondingly and steadily. Full paranoia strikes as Alma cons him into believing that she’s deduced it from an innocent error on his part – if she could figure it out, others can, too. (I’ve always held that Alma got her revenge and then some when she didn’t admit to Ennis just how she found out about him and Jack.)
So here is Ennis; on a day-to-day basis he’s dealt with his fear of being outed and his shame of actually being queer through some sort of balancing act: The more the fear and shame and paranoia press on his mind, the more he behaves in counterpoint. Making himself continually (and apparently increasingly) inaccessible to Jack. Not opening up to let Jack in on his emotions, not letting Jack see that it’s in fact nearly killing him to have to make it on those few meetings a year. Not responding when Jack talks of missing him. As they reach the breaking point he hurls threats and accusations. He’s constantly acting in his own worst interest, and he knows that. Is he punishing himself for being queer, thinking he deserves the misery he’s meting out? Is he distancing himself from the most loathed part of him (the queerness), and the most beloved (Jack), tangled up all in one as they are? Is he following his usual way of forcing those who care for him to quit him through his abandoning them first, emotionally and/or physically. (Is this just so much psycho-babble? :-\ ::) )
In any case, he’s pushing himself towards actively engineering the eventual loss of Jack, the man he IMO is aware of loving and doesn’t want to lose for the world.
That he manages to carry on for 15 years with this sort of constant internal tug-of-war is simply amazing – what strength! And what a tragedy, the way his strength is employed……
I’m getting to my conclusion of this far-too-meandering and too-incoherent post: In the lake scene, Ennis’s long balancing act cannot be maintained any more. The stress has been increasing and the fractures that have developed breaks everything apart to come crashing down around his ears. And as that happens, Ennis’s truly deepest fear is at long last made clear to him and comes to a point all at once, - the point that his homophobia, self-loathing and lack of self-esteem have been driving him towards, the point that his knowledge of loving Jack has been resisting and struggling against: Jack finally seems to be abandoning him. He seems to be losing Jack. And he *still* doesn’t know what to do or how to change…. I think I am grateful I shall never have to know what’s in Ennis’s mind and heart, as he drives away from Jack after the dozy flashback. That must be truly frightening and lonely places to be.
First, Ruth - I have to respond to your ..... ummmm .... discussion of what I should have called the "you know what..."
OMG!!! I just laughed so hard I could hardly breath!!! Yes, there could be many other names I could have used. You win on that one!!! :laugh:
IMO, it wasn't until he breaks down at the lake that he realized the intensity of his feelings were "love" ... which, ultimately, was too late .... after Jack was gone. Ennis had to live the rest of his life dealing with regret and disillusionment.
So, being the dork that I am ... I just want to quote the dictionary for the word, "denial":
a psychological defense mechanism in which confrontation with a personal problem or with reality is avoided by denying the existence of the problem or reality
That explains Ennis. Even after Jack has died, I don't think Ennis considered himself gay. He did, however, know he loved Jack and that he has lost the one person who understood him completely.
I think this is a very good point. IMO, it was not that he was worried other people would find out he was gay .... it was that they would find out he was having relations with a man (which may seem like splitting hairs, but it isn't. He did not see himself as "queer").
IMO, everything reinforces my opinion that Ennis did not understand that he loved Jack until it was too late. Therein lies the tragedy.
I know the rest of your responses were to mikaela’s post, but I hope you don’t mind me jumping in here with my two cents worth.
I’m not sure. think this is where all of his worlds, all of his truths, lies and secrets, all came together and crashed head-on. So I think that his lakeside breakdown coalesces all of these things for him so that from this point on, he has to start thinking of everything in a new way. It seems to me that here is where the word “love” is struggling to make itself known to Ennis. After this he talks with Cassie who explains that it’s not about fun – a clue to Ennis that Jack did not compartmentalize their relationship as fun. Then he talks with Lureen… here, the two people who could claim Jack as their “husband” (if you will) come together and talk. Here, Lureen gives Ennis another clue that Jack did not compartmentalize their relationship in the same way that Ennis did. Then he pays a call on the Twists and sets a spell. Old Man Twist gives Ennis another two clues about how Jack viewed their relationship. And here is where Ennis gets to see two people who were significant in Jack's life and how differently they viewed him. He can feel the contempt oozing out of Old Man Twist; but, Mrs. Twist shows Ennis that she is someone who loved Jack and, with her hand of compassion, nudges Ennis to go and find that love -- all of this building up in Ennis and culminating in finding the shirts. Here, to me, is where Ennis realizes it was “love.” This is what makes his reaction to Jr.’s affirmation of Kurt’s love for her so poignant. She’s 19, the same age as he was when he met Jack, and he’s making sure that she knows that Kurt loves her so that she won’t have to go through the next twenty years without understanding, as he did.
Or, that he was worried that he, himself, would find out that he, himself, is “queer.” No more denying it.
I was hoping to hear your opinion!
Ossana: It’s the first time in the film that he doesn’t disappoint someone, male or female.
I just have the belief, however, that he did not see himself as gay, period.
What I find interesting is that when Ennis goes up to Jack's room, and he opens the window .... IMO, it symbolizes the opening of himself to Jack. Jack's closet door was open, but the shirts were (partially) hidden. I think that illustrates two things: 1) that Jack was more open to his own sexuality (i.e. that he was gay), but 2) he kept his relationship with Ennis hidden, private and cherished.
The shirts in Ennis' closet represent his love for Jack. It, too, is kept hidden, private and cherished. But he closes the closet door. IMO, he is accepting his love for Jack, but he keeps, even to himself, his sexuality "in the closet".
Well, a day (or two) late and a dollar short, the perfect name for this thread hit me just now out of the clear blue sky. "You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault."
I'm not sure about the next section of your post. You agreed with some of a quote of mine (blue), and so I assume you don't agree with the rest. And you quoted some quotes from Lee, McMurtry, and Ossana after this, so I'm wondering whether they have relevance to your not agreeing with the un-highlighted part of my quote. But I'm not sure.
As much as I find the films' creators' statements to be interesting, one thing I have noticed is that they all say different things about the same thing at different times. For example, the comments about Cassie are from one perspective from one of them in one interview. I've read interviews where they each give totally different explanations about Cassie -- explanations that are different from each other at the time, and statements that are different from their own words in other interviews. I do not believe this to be an inconsistency on their parts. I find it to be strong support for the assertion that the film has so many levels and layers. Each time any one of them answers the same question in different interviews, the answers given are slightly different. At that moment, they are looking at it from this angle or that angle.
As an even better example, I'll look at one of the quotes you gave:
"It’s the first time in the film that he doesn’t disappoint someone, male or female."
Here, the object of her comment is more this particular scene than the film as a whole. She's giving emphasis to the import of what Ennis has done in this scene. How do we know this? Because taking the statement as a statement of Ennis' character throughout the film, it's not a true statement. At the SNIT scene, Jack waited in the tent to see what Ennis would do. Jack did not know whether Ennis would come in or ride off to be with the sheep. He was hopin', of course, but he didn’t know. So Jack had a hope. He hoped that Ennis would come into the tent. And what did Ennis do? He came into the tent. In other words, he did not disappoint Jack, a male. So we have an example where Ennis did not disappoint someone, male or female, way back in the first 45 minutes or so of the film.
(And of course there are other examples... he didn't disappoint Jack in the elk shoot scene (Jack wanted other food and Ennis provided)... he didn't disappoint Alma on their wedding day (she wanted to get married and he showed up)... he didn't disappoint society on that day either (he did what was expected of him)... he didn't disappoint his boss when he hurried the girls to Alma at the store so that he could go to work... he didn’t disappoint Jack at the first reunion scene -- in fact, he probably gave Jack a lot more than Jack was expecting, maybe even hoping for at that moment... he didn't disappoint his girls by showing up for Thanksgiving dinner... he must not have disappointed Cassie for quite a while during their relationship -- she certainly would have liked it to have continued ---- so Ossana's comment cannot be taken as a final, definitive statement about Ennis' character. She's just trying to give weight to the fact that we know Ennis did disappoint a lot of people a lot of the time and that here he didn’t disappoint Jr.)
You see what I'm getting at? Just because they describe a particular scene or character in one way at one interview, it doesn’t mean that that's a final and definitive answer for all time. It’s just one of them giving one of many perceptions that each one has about something.
I'm not even sure if it was necessary to point this out, because, to be honest, I really didn’t understand where you were going with your message at that point. And I take this as my failing. I could just as easily have called myself "ruthlessly stupid!" :laugh:
I think part of it has to do with how Ennis defines "queer." Obviously we can’t ask Ennis to define "queer," and even if we did, he'd probably say "Huh, what?" But from some of his statements, I get the feeling that he understands "queer" as a bad thing, an unnatural thing, and maybe most importantly, a non-love thing. This is why I believe he has such a disconnect in his mind between what he does and what he is.
Perhaps it would have been too big a leap forward for Film Ennis as we know him to have hung those shirts out in the open.
I think Ennis saw his love for Jack as anomaly .... it was something he could not understand. It is interesting to note that Jack was the only man Ennis ever loved. The only man with whom he made love. He had no desire to be with anyone other than Jack (i.e. he didn't desire other men in a sexual way, IMO).
Well, a day (or two) late and a dollar short, the perfect name for this thread hit me just now out of the clear blue sky. "You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault."
OMG! With all respect to the contest winner, JakeTwist, I have to say this one is better.
I can't give you any beans since they're already been awarded at the shindig we held at Don Wroe’s cabin – boy, that was some weekend, huh?
But would anyone mind if I changed the thread title again?
JakeTwist – do you mind?
OMG! With all respect to the contest winner, JakeTwist, I have to say this one is better.
I can't give you any beans since they're already been awarded at the shindig we held at Don Wroe’s cabin – boy, that was some weekend, huh?
But would anyone mind if I changed the thread title again?
JakeTwist – do you mind?
Well my minutes of fame are over I see. (*sniff*)
It was nice while it lasted.... It was nice a-knowin' ya Ruthie, if that's your real name!!! ;)
I guess I don't deserve the honour a namin' your thread, since I hardly get time enough to read it, bein' so busy with the per-formance 'n all, but jus don forget, iffen ya never even knew it in the furs place, that I was the one who steered some a them e-ducated posters to your thread-there way back in the beginnin' when it's name were no shucks.
See ya around, I guess...
Jane
( :D ;D :laugh:)
Well my minutes of fame are over I see. (*sniff*)
It was nice while it lasted.... It was nice a-knowin' ya Ruthie, if that's your real name!!! ;)
I guess I don't deserve the honour a namin' your thread, since I hardly get time enough to read it, bein' so busy with the per-formance 'n all, but jus don forget, iffen ya never even knew it in the furs place, that I was the one who steered some a them e-ducated posters to your thread-there way back in the beginnin' when it's name were no shucks.
See ya around, I guess...
Jane
Well, a day (or two) late and a dollar short, the perfect name for this thread
Now I have to confess that reading your posts at stinky old work a few hours ago, I did not grasp that the new suggestion was
the Brokeism "You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault." I thought it was
"a day (or two) late and a dollar short" because all I read was:
Well, a day (or two) late and a dollar short, the perfect name for this thread
(I have to admit that I am a dunce) and of course the Brokeism is the better name, gotta go with the Brokeism!
I'm gonna have to throw you that same glance that Ennis threw to Jack right after Jack said "The hell we are..." at the "yee-haw" scene.
I was thinking more along the lines of the look Ennis gives when Jack says "better git unless you wannna be standing around tying knots all day!" :laugh: :laugh:
I was wondering if I would be the first one to laugh at myself before anyone else.
I want to bring up the whole agruement at the lake. I have heard a few different points of view and I would like to hear all of your opinions.
When Jack says, "I did once" .... when I first saw the film, I thought Jack meant that he did have a better idea by going to Mexico, having sex with a prostitute and not having any emotional baggage. Someone else said that when Jack said, "I did once" he was referring to having a life with Ennis. Ennis didn't want to hear the same old thing, so he picked a fight about Mexico ... i.e. putting the issue back on Jack. It ended up backfiring because all this other stuff came out and Jack brought up the subject of a life together anyway. Honestly, at this point I don't know what I think.
It was not okay, in Ennis' mind, to have sex with another man. Ennis was faithful to Jack. He expected Jack to do the same.
Then he hears Jack say he has had sex with another man and that their infrequent couplings were not enough.
After Jack says, "I wish I knew how to quit you .." and Ennis replies, "Why don't you? Why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this ..." IMO, Ennis did not see himself as gay.
In Ennis' mind, it was Jack's fault that he loved a man. Then, the man he loved betrayed him by having an "affair".
None of what was said was news. But, having said it outloud was hurtful to both.
Then it goes into the dozy embrace, which is a different issue altogether. I won't open that can of worms at this moment.
Getting back to the whole "I did once" issue ... Was Jack trying to quit Ennis? Was Ennis trying to quit Jack? Did Jack want to hurt Ennis as he had been hurt?
I see Jack and Ennis' reunion and the lake scene as bookends.
It's as if their "ride" is almost over. Each one can hardly handle this secret and intense love.
I'd like to hear your thoughts!
We have established that the whole arguement was not about jealousy. IMO, however, Ennis felt completely betrayed. It was okay for either one of them to have sex with women. It was not okay, in Ennis' mind, to have sex with another man. Ennis was faithful to Jack. He expected Jack to do the same. Then he hears Jack say he has had sex with another man and that their infrequent couplings were not enough.
But WHY does Ennis feel this way? Back to his fears always back to his fears. They are his prime motivators. If Jack has been with other men, then Jack is gay, and that breaks their were not queer pact, and that makes Ennis queer and that just wont fit into his reality.
Well, but then how does that explain all of those people in "real life" who don't struggle with internalized homophobia but who nevertheless get upset when their partners seek out other lovers? Why would Ennis be immune to regular old jealousy?
Not to say Ennis' homophobia is a nonissue. I'm sure the stress juggling two intense and conflicting emotions -- it's bad to be queer; I love Jack -- over two decades plays a part in his breakdown.
All this time and he aint found nobody to marry because he knows he wants to be with Jack -- would love, at some level, to take Jack up on his sweet-life plan -- but just honestly can't see how it would work. In his understanding of reality, the idea of two men living together is simply not possible, it's both an idealistic fantasy, and a scary and shameful one as well.
But why wouldn't Ennis be distraught that the man with whom he's been in love and to whom he's been faithful for 20 years has been fooling around with other men?
I was going to say other people -- but caught myself because of course he's not the least bit disturbed by the thought of Jack with women. Is this entirely because that concept doesn't trigger his homophobia? No, in my view, it's because he knows women aren't a threat, just as he assumes Jack doesn't feel threatened by his relationship with Cassie (or, in them earlier days, Alma).
That's why, when he describes his relationship with Cassie, he does so in that shrugging tone that indicates it's completely inconsequential.
Since the first time I saw the film I’ve changed my mind on a number of points, but I have always thought, and most likely will continue to think, that Jack meant “live together.” Couple of reasons: That's what Jack always says – reunion river scene, cow-and-calf operation, sweet life – post-divorce scene, “I thought…” with his sideways glance – move to Texas scene, move to Texas – final lake scene, same old Jack… “I did once.” Ennis always goes back to fear; Jack always goes back to living together.
Second, put yourself in Jack’s boots… he heard Ennis ask him whether he’d had a better idea… what’s the first thing that will come to his mind? Mexico or live together? When Jack hears the words “BETTER idea,” what will come to his mind? Mexico or live together? The reason Ennis asked his question at this time is because he was trying to throw out “fun” bait for Jack to assuage Jack concerning missing August. Hunt, elk, cabin… “we had a good time that year.” But Jack is unmoved and responds that this is a “goddamn bitch of an unsatisfactory situation.” In other words, “We’ve got a dilemma here, Ennis.” So Ennis, who has thrown out his bait asks Jack whether he has a better idea. Remember, he’s not asking Jack if Jack has a better idea about how to handle their relationship. He’s asking Jack if he has a better idea about the fact that they’re missing out on August. It’s about time. Jack just said “Never enough time, never enough.” Meaning? Meaning "We never have enough time together and we would have all the time in the world together if we were actually together." So Ennis is asking Jack about how they can handle this time problem. This is Ennis’ big mistake – because he knows Jack well enough to know that Jack is going to come back with “live together,” as always. And so Jack responds that he “did once” have a better idea about how the two of them can handle their time dilemma – live together. Not Mexico. How does Jack going to Mexico fix their time problem? Regardless how one views the back-and-forth in this part of the scene, would Jack EVER believe that Mexico was a better idea?
I’d LOVE to discuss this. But I can’t until you let me know how you define “quit.”
Well, but then how does that explain all of those people in "real life" who don't struggle with internalized homophobia but who nevertheless get upset when their partners seek out other lovers? Why would Ennis be immune to regular old jealousy?
Not to say Ennis' homophobia is a nonissue. I'm sure the stress juggling two intense and conflicting emotions -- it's bad to be queer; I love Jack -- over two decades plays a part in his breakdown. All this time and he aint found nobody to marry because he knows he wants to be with Jack -- would love, at some level, to take Jack up on his sweet-life plan -- but just honestly can't see how it would work. In his understanding of reality, the idea of two men living together is simply not possible, it's both an idealistic fantasy, and a scary and shameful one as well.
But why wouldn't Ennis be distraught that the man with whom he's been in love and to whom he's been faithful for 20 years has been fooling around with other men?
I was going to say other people -- but caught myself because of course he's not the least bit disturbed by the thought of Jack with women. Is this entirely because that concept doesn't trigger his homophobia? No, in my view, it's because he knows women aren't a threat, just as he assumes Jack doesn't feel threatened by his relationship with Cassie (or, in them earlier days, Alma). That's why, when he describes his relationship with Cassie, he does so in that shrugging tone that indicates it's completely inconsequential.
I see the line, "Never enough time, never enough ...", as Jack's way to express that time was passing them by. All of those years they could have had a life together. Instead, they spent their lives separate and alone. They were desperate to be together. However, the elephant in the room (i.e. Ennis' memory of Earl) was always there. Ennis was unable to give himself to Jack fully because he was too afraid of retribution. Ennis was also divorced from his feelings for Jack, until, IMO, the lake scene when he realized that this whole time it was love he was feeling. (Is that why the song "D-I-V-O-R-C-E" was playing on the jukebox when he was with Cassie and Alma, Jr?? Just a thought. ;))
I am reading what you are saying and I agree with a lot of it. You and I have had discussions as to when Ennis knew he loved Jack. That is where we differ. In reading your note, however, I think we are saying the same thing, but in a different way. I am not saying that Ennis doesn't love Jack. He began loving Jack on BBM and was devastated when they parted. Ennis could not express his feelings to anyone and he tried to convince himself that those emotions did not exist. IMO, Ennis' speech is a representation of how he copes -- it's as if he is punching out his words. He is trying to hold everything down. When he can't contain himself anymore, he explodes. Anger is the one emotion he can express. IMO, Ennis could not label his feelings for Jack as love (i.e. he did not understand that all of those feelings of passion and longing equated love).
I can surmise that Ennis was aware Jack was not loyal.
But to hear it out loud ... to hear the bitterness in Jack's voice .... had to be devastating. I don't think Ennis understood the intensity of Jack's pain, loneliness and need. For Ennis, their infrequent couplings were enough. It gave him satisfaction just being with Jack. For Jack, what he craved was a life together. He was living a lie. He certainly didn't love Lureen. Jack would have given up everything .... his marriage, his child, his money ... had Ennis said "yes, I want to build a life with you."
(OT - I got the CD today ... to help give me a fix while I'm in the car or at work ... and was completely blown away by how much the music moved me. The one song that killed me was, "A Love That Will Never Grow Old". It is the song that is playing in Jack's pickup after he has driven 14 hours only to find out he misunderstood the intent of Ennis' card. The lyrics are incredibly moving. I just started to cry because it exemplified Jack and Ennis' tragic relationship.)
When I refer to "quit" ... I am thinking of two things:
1) Jack (or Ennis) trying to free himself from the relationship, secrets, and lies.
2) Jack (or Ennis) attempting to eradicate any feelings of love and passion towards the other.
IMO, Jack is referring to both of these things when he says, "I wish I knew how to quit you."
This is a good question, but it's probably best answered by what you've said you've observed in the real world. You've pointed out that there are people who don't struggle with internalized homophobia... and we know that there are people who struggle with it (Ennis, for example – he’s real world, isn’t he?). Different kinds of people in different kinds of situations with different needs and different agendas. Ennis just happens to fall into his particular category, into which I'm sure there are still a lot of other people who fall.
But Ennis has a special circumstance -- internalized homophobia. And this has been presented to us as his motivating factor. We can analyze Moby Dick up the yin-yang, but we still have to come back to the prime motivating factor that was laid out for us, the theme the author wanted to convey. For this film, the theme is the damaging effects of rural homophobia.
Ennis and Jack love each other, right? And they're meant for each other, right? Well then why is Ennis having sex with Cassie? Simply because Jack won't mind? Is that faithful? He won't give himself to Jack the way Jack wants and so he has sex with Cassie. What if they lived together? Would he still have sex with Cassie? No. What's changed? Living together. So why don't they live together? Ennis' fears. Without Ennis' fears, Ennis would live with Jack and not have sex with Cassie. That's faithful.
Jack told Ennis that Jack has been having sex with the neighbor’s wife. Ennis could care less. He doesn’t even see it as a contributing factor to the disassociation of their relationship (as opposed to Jack who sees Cassie as just another obstacle that he's going to have to deal with). What's the difference between a man and a woman?
It's great to listen to because it's got almost all of the music from the film in order -- especially all the wordless music – it adds the harmonica playing, “Water-Walking Jesus,” the music heard while Ennis looks at the word “deceased,” and the music during Ennis’ time in Jack’s closet and driving home. It also adds some songs that we only heard snippets of and they pack a wallop when heard in their entirety. Since it’s very nearly complete and in order, you can play out the film in your head while listening.
....the following conclusion is not logical IMO:
Ennis knows that being queer is having sex with men + Ennis has sex with Jack ≠ Ennis does not think of himself as queer.
How can he not? He is sane and rational, is he not? And he did ask Jack at the riverside "Do you ever get the feeling that people know?" I realize that sometimes people can make excuses for their behaviour to the point of believing that it is something other than what it is, (I mean self-delusional) but when it comes to something as concrete as having sex with a man over and over and over for half of one's life, this ain't no little thing that's happenin here.
I cannot follow the interprectation that says Ennis did not think of himself as gay. Oh well..
Not everyone agrees with me on this ... so I am going to try and explain this in another way …..
There is a "phenomenon" in the US with African-American men. It is called being on the “down low”. To make a long story short, these are two men getting together to have sex. Neither one sees themselves as gay. But they are having sex with another man. There are no emotional ties. It is strictly sex. The other piece of this whole “down low” thing, is that neither one of the men can be “gay”. Now how bizarre is that? To you and me, we would say … “these guys are gay”.
Now plug Ennis into this same line of thinking …. Ennis did not see himself as gay. Jack (initially) did not see himself as gay … (it is unclear to me if Jack ever considered himself gay. However, he was much more in touch with his sexual needs being fulfilled by a man). Yes, they had sex together. But for Ennis, it is only Jack. He is not attracted to any other man. He has no desire to be with another man. Think of the line Ennis says to Jack when they talk about Mexico:
“Well, you been to Mexico, Jack? Huh? ‘Cause I hear what they got in Mexico for boys like you.”
Notice that Ennis is still separating himself from the thought that he is gay, even though he’s implying that Jack is gay. Later, Ennis blames Jack for being the way he is (in other words for loving a man). Denial is a powerful thing.
One more example to help express my point …..
A person might have grown up being thin. Then s/he discovers chocolate and starts to eat it and eat it and eat it. This person gains an enormous amount of weight. The scale indicates the person is overweight. The mirror shows the person is overweight. However, the individual cannot admit that he/she is overweight. S/he still believes him/herself to be thin. The reality is s/he is not. That doesn’t change the individual’s perception.
That is how I see Ennis ... he looks at himself as a man who happens to love another man. It is something he does not completely understand. We see Ennis as gay. Another person looking in might say he is gay. That does't mean he sees himself as gay.
Well Diane, I am mightily impressed!! :) Are you a courtroom attorney or sumpin'? Your closing arguments have swayed me completely. I stlll believe my mathematical equation, but I accept your explanations too...
Score one for the defense attorney! ;DJ
the arguements, explanation, deep analysis and interpretations in this thread are simply awsome.
I cannot argue points as eloquently as y'all, but I am reading this thread, and I would just like to point out again (am I going to be banned from here for sounding like a broken record?) that the following conclusion is not logical IMO:
Ennis knows that being queer is having sex with men + Ennis has sex with Jack ≠ Ennis does not think of himself as queer.
How can he not? He is sane and rational, is he not?
And he did ask Jack at the riverside "Do you ever get the feeling that people know?" I realize that sometimes people can make excuses for their behavior to the point of believing that it is something other than what it is, (I mean self-delusional) but when it comes to something as concrete as having sex with a man over and over and over for half of one's life, this ain't no little thing that's happenin here.
Not everyone agrees with me on this ... so I am going to try and explain this in another way …..
Well Diane, I am mightily impressed!! :) Are you a courtroom attorney or sumpin'? Your closing arguments have swayed me completely. I stlll believe my mathematical equation, but I accept your explanations too...
This is getting to be a strange thread. Instead of everybody debating in multiple directions, most of the posts seem to be one-on-one debates with Ruthlessly. But -- what can I say? -- here I go doing the same.
But I'm not discounting Ennis' internalized homophobia in shaping his reaction. I'm sure, in fact, that's a factor. But I prefer to be inclusive. To me, boiling it down to JUST homophobia seems to remove Ennis from the real world. Instead of experiencing a hodge-podge of real-world feelings, a mix of emotional conflicts -- homophobia, sure, but also, and perhaps primarily, jealousy because the man he has loved for 20 years is seeing other men -- he becomes a pawn in a literary scheme rather than a three-dimensional real-life living human being (which he is, isn't he? ISN''T HE??!?). ???
This is what I mean. Is he Ennis, or is he Moby? Does he react like anybody might, upon hearing of their loved one's unfaithfulness, or does he react like a literary character fulfilling his thematic duty?
I think I agree with everything here. Ennis definitely does have fears about living with Jack. They're just not his only motivation in the lakeside argument. He's not having sex with Cassie simply because Jack won't mind. It's because, yes, he doesn't want to have people know he's gay AND he doesn't think Jack would mind (personally, I think Jack minds more than Ennis realizes, but ...).
Does yours have "Melissa"? I am disappointed that the regular soundtrack doesn't include it, the song Ennis and Cassie dance to on their date with Alma Jr. I miss that one especially, because Ennis himself picked it from the jukebox, and it seems to unconsciously reflect his feelings about Jack and Cassie ("knowing many, loving none; sharing sorrows, having fun -- but back home he'll always run ..."). Of all the pre-existing songs in the movie, that has always been my favorite (in the context of the movie, anyway).
And I think tied up in that, too, would be a loyalty to Jack and his memory that would never be broken. I have trouble imagining Ennis ever being attracted to another man again because of all that. It just doesn't seem true to his character.
Ennis knows that being queer is having sex with men + Ennis has sex with Jack ≠ Ennis does not think of himself as queer.
How can he not? He is sane and rational, is he not? And he did ask Jack at the riverside "Do you ever get the feeling that people know?" I realize that sometimes people can make excuses for their behaviour to the point of believing that it is something other than what it is, (I mean self-delusional) but when it comes to something as concrete as having sex with a man over and over and over for half of one's life, this ain't no little thing that's happenin here.
I'd just like to take my dead horse beater out once again and chime in that I agree that while Ennis clearly is gay, he does not see himself as gay. I think that when he says, "Do you ever see someone looking at you and wonder if he knows?..." what he's talking about "knowing" about is not being a homosexual, but being a man who has sex with another man. Yes, those two things are one and the same to all of us. But not to him. And as it's been mentioned before, Diana Ossana believes that most likely, after Jack's death, Ennis would likely become even more homophobic and self-loathing. Tied up in his grief and guilt over Jack's death and the fact that it could have been avoided if he had done some things differently is his engrained shame, still, that he was in love and had sex regularly with another man. And I think tied up in that, too, would be a loyalty to Jack and his memory that would never be broken. I have trouble imagining Ennis ever being attracted to another man again because of all that. It just doesn't seem true to his character.
And I, too, just can't see Ennis being with anyone else. The "bitter longing" Annie noticed in the expression of that aging ranch hand as he watched young cowboys one night in a bar, I believe that longing on Ennis' face in later years would be not for the men he saw before him, but for the one man they were shadows of.
So beautifully put...
Barb, to comment on just a couple of your points (and I agree with all of 'em) - I assume it wasn't by accident that you said "tied up", twice, cause how else could Ennis contain all those absolute contradictions and intense emotions other than by tying himself up in knots (and Jack called him on it before they even went up the mountain). Heath even moved, at almost every point in the film, as if he were tied up like a hobbled horse (those heart-breaking, shuffling steps).
And I, too, just can't see Ennis being with anyone else. The "bitter longing" Annie noticed in the expression of that aging ranch hand as he watched young cowboys one night in a bar, I believe that longing on Ennis' face in later years would be not for the men he saw before him, but for the one man they were shadows of.
Okay ... so now I am going to open another can of worms …. the whole “dozy embrace” flashback. Both the short story and the screenplay state the following:
“Nothing mars this moment for Jack, even though he knows that Ennis does not embrace him face to face because he does not want to see or feel that it is Jack he holds …. “
I have my own take on this, but before I give my dissertation, I would like to hear all of your opinions!!! ;)
I think we are all in agreement here. Ennis loved Jack, but he did not see himself as gay.
I agree with this, but I just want to add that I think Katherine's out of town and away from computers at the moment, and I don't think that she agrees with this.
But the scene doesn't seem to be played that way in the movie -- it's one of the few moments when Ennis doesn't appear to be conflicted. (I would argue that, beautiful as the 2nd tent scene is, that Ennis's face never looks as peaceful as it does during the dozy embrace. Both men are just so beautiful in the dozy embrace scene.) But perhaps the movie audience didn't need more evidence of Ennis's inner battles (whatever their source) -- Heath's performance is just so pitch-perfect; Ennis's struggles are written in perfect ambiguity in his every expression. So the movie scene seems more to remind the audience of Jack's (perhaps idealized) memories, to cast the memories of the mountain in an even more idyllic light than they were originally portrayed, to provide a contrast with the argument beside the lake, and to give us two contrasting views of Jack before he dies: young and hopeful and in love, and middle-aged and resigned... and yet still in love?
a favorite memory of a loved one that, truth be told, is marred in some way by realizing that they did not quite embrace the mutual feeling the two of you shared as fully as you did.
Someone has put into words what I had been trying to enunciate all along... and wrestling hopelessly against a rising tide of militant Jackaholism that blamed Ennis for the entire 20 year debacle, knowing there was something wrong with this picture.
I'll bet Lureen thought she just kept getting prettier and prettier (like in her youth) as she applied more and more make-up and bleached her hair blonder and blonder.
I agree with this, but I just want to add that I think Katherine's out of town and away from computers at the moment, and I don't think that she agrees with this. (There are a lot of subtle differences in interpretations about what Ennis's essential conflict is -- everything from "Ennis doesn't realize he loves Jack" to "Ennis doesn't accept that he loves Jack" to "Ennis doesn't realize that he's gay" to "Ennis doesn't accept that he's gay" to "Ennis is afraid of how other people will react if they know he is gay." I think it's a spectrum of interpretations rather than two clear sides, and it's hard to pin down the source of Ennis's inner turmoil, given how he keeps it all tied up inside himself. Perhaps all of us find some open space between what we see on the screen and what we try to believe, and it's a little different for each of us.)
Now, to the question at hand: It seems a bit strange that the screenplay keeps the story's line about Ennis being unwilling to "embrace him [Jack] face to face because he does not want to see or feel that it is Jack he holds". I think ednbarby explains the story line really well.
It's interesting, because I think that's the line in the story that really pulls Ennis's internalized homophobia into perspective (and it's interesting that it comes into focus in one of the few moments that's purely from Jack's POV, as if Ennis doesn't even see the conflict clearly enough for the reader to understand Ennis from his own POV). But the scene doesn't seem to be played that way in the movie -- it's one of the few moments when Ennis doesn't appear to be conflicted. (I would argue that, beautiful as the 2nd tent scene is, that Ennis's face never looks as peaceful as it does during the dozy embrace. Both men are just so beautiful in the dozy embrace scene.) But perhaps the movie audience didn't need more evidence of Ennis's inner battles (whatever their source) -- Heath's performance is just so pitch-perfect; Ennis's struggles are written in perfect ambiguity in his every expression. So the movie scene seems more to remind the audience of Jack's (perhaps idealized) memories, to cast the memories of the mountain in an even more idyllic light than they were originally portrayed, to provide a contrast with the argument beside the lake, and to give us two contrasting views of Jack before he dies: young and hopeful and in love, and middle-aged and resigned... and yet still in love?
Anyway, the screenplay takes the directions directly from the story, but the implications of the lines Diane quoted are spread throughout the movie, not used directly in the dozy embrace scene. At least, that's how I view it.
…. two contrasting views of Jack before he dies: young and hopeful and in love, and middle-aged and resigned... and yet still in love?
What Ennis cannot face, however, is the realization that it is a man he loves.
Despite this, however, I still contend that Jack loved Ennis as much as he always had … that had not diminished.
Thanks, Mel, for pointing that out! You're right: I was out of town, and I don't agree with those other assertions.
Back to why I don't agree that Ennis is completely oblivious to his homosexuality. I think he's loyal to Jack because he loves(d) Jack. But I don't think Jack is the only man he's ever found attractive. I think he has long realized that he's attracted to men. That's what makes his upbringing so damaging, what with his bigoted dad and the spectre of Earl sending the message that he literally needs to fear for his life if he ever gives any sign of it. That's one reason, if not the only one, that he's so shy and awkward and messed up. And his internalized homophobia MORE convincing, to me, than it would if he never thought his dad's bigotry had anything to do with him.
Now I'm willing to believe that acknowledging one's homosexuality is a special case -- if only because there I have no authoritative way of arguing otherwise. But it still doesn't fit with what I see of Ennis' behavior and his background.
But I think that that knowledge wasn't the beautiful, joyful thing that it should rightly be for any person who experiences a love as beautiful as that between Ennis and Jack. It was the source of a great deal of inner conflict for Ennis, because in all other respects he genuinely belonged to a deeply conservative, homophobic culture. So it wasn't so much that Ennis couldn't literally embrace Jack face-to-face... but Ennis couldn't embrace that part of himself.
PS: Katherine, I think that what's out of character in the story is actually part of the conversation in the Motel Siesta, where Ennis and Jack discuss where other people go if this happens to them. That sure reads like an acknowledgement that they're like those people in Denver... but it reads to me like Annie Proulx's commentary on Wyoming, not like something that Ennis would acknowledge, even in a context where it's clear that moving to Denver simply isn't an option he'll accept.
Katherine – you posted this note while I was writing mine. I’m so glad you’re home! It’s no fun being in consensus! ;D(kidding!!!)
A woman lives in the burbs, is a stay-at-home mom, husband is a doctor. She has been raised in a God-fearing home and has been taught to do all the right things. ... Besides that, she was taught that “good Christian girls” never take drugs. That’s a “bad thing”. So for her to come to the conclusion that she is a drug addict is not even in her realm of comprehension.
If Jack wouldn’t have come into his life, I am not convinced he would have ever had a homosexual affair, IMO.
Ossana: .... But I do think that Ennis knows that people probably know that he’s homosexual...
http://www.advocate.com/currentstory1_w.asp?id=25277&page= (http://www.advocate.com/currentstory1_w.asp?id=25277&page=)
But I don't think Jack is the only man he's ever found attractive. I think he has long realized that he's attracted to men. That's what makes his upbringing so damaging, what with his bigoted dad and the spectre of Earl sending the message that he literally needs to fear for his life if he ever gives any sign of it. That's one reason, if not the only one, that he's so shy and awkward and messed up. And his internalized homophobia MORE convincing, to me, than it would if he never thought his dad's bigotry had anything to do with him.
But it still doesn't fit with what I see of Ennis' behavior and his background.
... of course we’ll have to see what Ruthless says …
I reconcile this by saying that the “face to face” issue is not to be taken literally, but figuratively. I have used this argument before and I can’t say that it has been a popular view. However, I think it fits. It is evident that Ennis can physically look at Jack face to face. He can hold him in his arms. He can kiss him tenderly. What Ennis cannot face, however, is the realization that it is a man he loves.
When Jack says, “All this time and you ain’t find nobody else to marry?” … it illustrates Jack’s resignation. Despite this, however, I still contend that Jack loved Ennis as much as he always had … that had not diminished. Even though Jack was seeking sexual fulfillment elsewhere (Mexico, Randall), he still had the emotional commitment to Ennis (one that he, at times, wished he could “quit”)."
Even if Jack would have lived with Randall, he would have still gone on his “fishing trips” with Ennis.
… so let me give a few different examples, because I think this does fit in to what we know about Ennis …
A woman lives in the burbs, ...
Now let’s look at Ennis … he was taught homosexuality was a “bad thing”. ...
If Jack wouldn’t have come into his life, I am not convinced he would have ever had a homosexual affair, IMO.
I see what you're saying, and I agree that's a better analogy. It's true that Ennis doesn't see himself as queer in terms of all the stereotypes he might attach to that label -- just as the woman you describe doesn't see herself as a "drug addict" per se. Would the woman openly take her Xanax in front of god and everyone with no hesitation because she doesn't see herself as fitting the drug addict profile? Or would she be worried that people in town and people on the pavement would "know" that she's taking too many? If it's the latter, then she's a pretty good comparison to Ennis ... neither might use the label they despise to describe their own behavior, yet at some level they realize their behavior is not "normal."
But the film so far surpasses the very thin story and gives such an enormous amount of weight to it, that while I can read the short story and put the film into it, I cannot watch the film and put the short story into the film. There are a few instances where something in the short story has made me look at motivations in the film a little differently, but there are so many times that the film gives a completely different spin that I think it's just best to put the book aside and go with what Lee gave us.
But, it is precisely because Jack loved Ennis so much that Jack had to let Ennis go. ... Jack said he wished he knew how to quit Ennis. In the most poignant irony of the entire film, Ennis showed him how.
Because Ennis sent the final postcard, I believe that Jack had not yet gotten around to closing things up with Ennis, and I’m not sure how he would have done it. ... Jack would have had to have gotten a final, definite answer from Ennis one way or the other. And if Ennis' answer was the same as always
QuoteIf it's the latter, then she's a pretty good comparison to Ennis ... neither might use the label they despise to describe their own behavior, yet at some level they realize their behavior is not "normal."
I think this is the entire key point. Very well stated (summed up).
Most importantly, the transition from story to film turns BBM from a tale about how society's prejudices can warp people's lives (by making Ennis afraid to live with Jack) to one about how society's prejudices can warp people's souls (by making Ennis afraid to love Jack, and himself).
Now, this makes sense, and I can't necessarily argue against it, but I find it ... well, sort of ruthlessly unsentimental. Or at least ruthlessly poignant. Anyway, for me, that possibility is hard to face.
in view of Ennis' breaking up with Cassie and his epiphany in the pie scene, Ennis' answer might NOT have been the same as always.
Well, if you agree on that, maybe we're not so diametrically opposed on the issue of Ennis' acknowledgment. Maybe it's not so much a black-or-white matter of, he fully acknowledges vs. he doesn't acknowledge. Maybe it's more a matter of degree.
I'm willing to believe that Ennis doesn't use the dreaded Q-word to describe himself, just as he doesn't use the L-word to describe his relationship with Jack. But I do think he notices that his own inclinations and behavior are the kind of thing his father taught him was a no-no, just as I think he notices that he has all the intense feelings toward Jack that most of us would describe with the word "love."
I agree with this completely. The film takes the skeleton of the story and adds flesh and dimension and meaning and detail. As Annie Proulx herself has said, it delves deeper into characters -- we've seen that Jack, to some extent, and Ennis, to a huge extent, are like two different people in the story and film. Most importantly, the transition from story to film turns BBM from a tale about how society's prejudices can warp people's lives (by making Ennis afraid to live with Jack) to one about how society's prejudices can warp people's souls (by making Ennis afraid to love Jack, and himself).
That's why, like you, I normally don't like using the story as a text for deciphering the film. (Though sometimes, if there's something I like better in the story, I pretend it exists in the film. For example, I prefer to think that "one thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings," to the subdued tone of that final tent scene.
Well, if you agree on that, maybe we're not so diametrically opposed on the issue of Ennis' acknowledgment. Maybe it's not so much a black-or-white matter of, he fully acknowledges vs. he doesn't acknowledge. Maybe it's more a matter of degree.
I'm willing to believe that Ennis doesn't use the dreaded Q-word to describe himself, just as he doesn't use the L-word to describe his relationship with Jack. But I do think he notices that his own inclinations and behavior are the kind of thing his father taught him was a no-no, just as I think he notices that he has all the intense feelings toward Jack that most of us would describe with the word "love."
I can go with this. But, his epiphany, if ever complete, was not completed until at least the "love" conversation with Jr. -- too late.
OMG! We can’t all be agreeing, can we? ... What it does mean is that Ennis did not see himself as a homosexual. He also would not be able to acknowledge the fact that he was attracted to men. IMO, he was able to give himself to Jack because of the place …. BBM …. where they had the freedom to be themselves without societal pressures and expectations. I think Ennis did become aware that he loved Jack at the lake scene. Prior to that, Ennis knew he had deep feelings for Jack, but was unable to completely accept or acknowledge that those feelings were, indeed, love.
OMG! We can’t all be agreeing, can we? That is how I see the situation with Ennis … it doesn’t mean he isn’t gay. It doesn’t mean he isn’t attracted to men. What it does mean is that Ennis did not see himself as a homosexual. He also would not be able to acknowledge the fact that he was attracted to men. IMO, he was able to give himself to Jack because of the place …. BBM …. where they had the freedom to be themselves without societal pressures and expectations. I think Ennis did become aware that he loved Jack at the lake scene. Prior to that, Ennis knew he had deep feelings for Jack, but was unable to completely accept or acknowledge that those feelings were, indeed, love.
As for Ennis' realization that he loves Jack, I think that occurs back on Brokeback. Again, he may not use that label. Maybe the Xanax addict has some other name for it than, "I am addicted to Xanax." But she knows how much she wants it. (Not to imply that either attraction to men or love are bad habits!)
I like everything you wrote. It all makes sense to me. Except, of course, for the "become aware that he loved Jack" part. I still think he just began the learning curve here. He admits that he's the way he is because of Jack. I think we all know that it's because of his love for Jack, and I think Jack would have even figured it that way. But I still think Ennis has not quite made the connection. I think he's saying it to Jack as an accusation, because of his fears. I believe that's the reason for the breakdown. If he did make that connection at that time, then he'd have sorted out the entire mess that was himself. It's his inability to make that connection that constitutes his messed-up self. And he can’t make that connection because of his fears.
Don't worry, Diane, we still don't agree! :) I DO think he acknowledges that he's attracted to men. To go back to the earlier example, the Xanax addict may not label herself a quote-unquote drug addict, but she certainly acknowledges that she takes Xanax, even if she wishes she didn't!
As for Ennis' realization that he loves Jack, I think that occurs back on Brokeback. Again, he may not use that label. Maybe the Xanax addict has some other name for it than, "I am addicted to Xanax." But she knows how much she wants it. (Not to imply that either attraction to men or love are bad habits!)
I think we are mostly on the same page but I do differ from you in two ways:
1. When Ennis says to Jack, “It’s because of you, Jack, that I’m this way. I’m nothin’ … I’m nowhere …” (IMO) he is blaming Jack for the whole relationship … i.e. in Ennis’ mind, at that moment, he believes that, if not for Jack, he would be living a “normal” life.
2. When Ennis breaks down, he knows that he can hardly handle this secret life. By the same token, he knows that he can’t have a life without Jack. Does that mean he would say, “I love you, Jack …” No.
However, when Ennis left, he did not anticipate that it would be their last time together.
What the bus stop scene, with Cassie, exemplifies is Ennis’ realization that he cannot pretend to love anyone other than Jack This epiphany occurs prior to seeing Cassie (as evidenced by Ennis breaking off contact with Cassie ).
Regarding Ennis’ realization that he loved Jack …. I am in Ruthless’ camp that it did not occur until post mountain. Ennis was stifled by his fear … fear of his feelings … fear of retribution. Again … the key word … :”denial”. What Ennis does understand is that he has deep feelings for Jack … ones that he finds terrifying. He does love Jack. However, he can not bring himself to admit that those feelings are, indeed, love.
We keep tossing around vague words like "know" "acknowledge" and "admit," think we all agree and get all excited, then keep talking and find out we actually don't. So maybe what we need to do is break it down. I'll suggest some subcategories and say whether, IMO, they apply. Others can write in their own views, or substitute other subcategories (or, of course, ignore the exercise alltogether).
Regarding his homosexuality, would Ennis
Regarding love, does Ennis
-- Recognize only after the pie scene that all those acts and feelings add up to quote-unquote love?
Latjoreme -- Hmm ... maybe. (I'm a little on the fence about this, and open -- believe it or not -- to persuasion.)
Ruthlessly – Getting’ there… plus the other interactions that follow. Pie’ll do it to ya every time! They shoulda bin eatin’ pie up on ol’ Brokeback ‘steada beans.
Jane - yes, that is when he starts to realize it, but the pie scene was not the illuminating moment. He had started to realize it after the Lake Scene confrontation. That is why he dropped Cassie..
Hey Ruthlessly, thanks for playing! This is fun. And it actually kind of works -- that is, it clarifies to me exactly where you stand compared to me (close, in some cases, but often on the other side of the room).
I will resist the temptation, for now, to comment on your answers or clarify mine. I hope others join the game. If so, maybe we can rephrase some of the questions that were confusing in the first place.
And I'd like to add a couple of questions that were inspired by your answers:
Hey Ruthlessly, thanks for playing! This is fun. And it actually kind of works -- that is, it clarifies to me exactly where you stand compared to me (close, in some cases, but often on the other side of the room).
And I'd like to add a couple of questions that were inspired by your answers:
HEY EVERYBODY,
I split this topic into a separate topic called "Fun Brokeback Questionnaires" on the Chez Tremblay board, because they were starting to take on a life of their own and seemed to be getting sort of OT from the original post. I hope nobody minds (if so, please let me know).
Anyway, in doing so I moved the last couple of questionnaires, so go find the last couple of sets of answers there.
Katherine
Ya done good.
Okay, Ruthless ... now it is your turn to get us back on track!! ;D
Me? Uh, I, uh, don't know...
yet I don't think we have the same questions in our heads about Jack as we do about Ennis. Like the Ennis questionnaire, it would be interesting to have an identical questionnaire about Jack and his understanding of his homosexuality. Why don't we have the same questions about him?
If we're talking about fault and blame as to why their story took such a frustrating and tragic turn... I think we need to look beyond both Ennis and Jack.
:-\
I think Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" line is meant to be a little bit of a threat (an empty threat... which he makes clear within the sentence itself). It may be his version of Ennis's empty threats earlier during the argument.
My urge to see an equivalent Jack questionnaire leads to one of the reasons I haven't jumped in here so far. I generally like to avoid discussions that pit Jack against Ennis or foster a sense of competition between them. I think the point is that they have to be taken together with equal weight. Proulx said you can't have Ennis without Jack. Not that we always need to run to Proulx for insight... but I think that one is very important. If we're talking about fault and blame as to why their story took such a frustrating and tragic turn... I think we need to look beyond both Ennis and Jack.
:-\
To me, it’s all about their love for each other. When did each fall in love with the other, when did each realize that he had fallen in love with the other, and when did each realize that the other had fallen in love with him? These are the key questions.That's almost exactly the same i asked myself during my first viewing of the movie. The slight difference was that i could not understand why these two guys actually ended up having sex with each other. Given the fact that this should be a love story instead of a story of some strong sexual fantasies and desires, i first had quite difficult time with explaining myself what led them to love each other in a way lovers do as opposed to just best friends.
But I think with Ennis it was a love attraction that was growing based on what he did for Jack, and I think with Jack it was more of a sex attraction.Really? Jack's motive was sex? I don't know about that.... Sure, Jack was more open in that respect, but i strongly doubt he was just looking for some random d* to "enter" him. He was pictured as very caring right from the start, with Ennis he was tender and loving, during the FNIT he was eating Ennis up with his eyes (my personal perception), same as during SNIT - he loved Ennis and wanted to be with him really-really close, wanted to feel him really close. Now, how come??
In the second tent scene, Ennis absolutely melted into Jack’s arms. For him, not only had this great guy become his friend, but also his lover. This is where I believe that Ennis fell in love with Jack.Yes and - YES! Agree completely. But...
...
And when did Jack realize that he had fallen in love with Ennis? I believe at the dozy embrace.
I believe the dozy embrace took place after they untangled the Chilean sheep and immediately before Ennis spent the night in the pup tent, waking up to the snow.Here - i don't think so. Sure, we can just speculate about when it actually took place because there are not many hints on this in the story. My personal theory is - i LIKE to think - that the dozy embrace took place right before the FNIT. Maybe same day in the morning. I read somewhere (which just supported my idea) that the dozy embrace was shot right after the water walking Jesus scene - which would be also totally in line with the story. Because in the movie the next scene after water walking Jesus and that sinner talk is the one in the evening, Ennis drunk and saying he will sleep in the camp - which is then followed by FNIT.
Until Ennis finally broke down at the final lake scene and told Jack that he was nothing, he was nowhere, and it’s because of Jack. Jack finally understood what Ennis’ love for Jack had done to Ennis all these years.
After Jack saw, vis-à-vis Ennis' breakdown, the toll that their relationship and Ennis' inability to cope with it had taken on Ennis, it would have been utterly cruel of Jack to continue their relationship. It is not love to see the person you love in utter despair and turmoil and then to say "Oh, well, at least I can get a couple of high-altitude fucks out of the guy every year." ... But, it is precisely because Jack loved Ennis so much that Jack had to let Ennis go.This is killing me.... :'( :'( :'(
Because Ennis sent the final postcard, I believe that Jack had not yet gotten around to closing things up with Ennis, and I’m not sure how he would have done it. But I am sure of one thing. Jack would have had to have gotten a final, definite answer from Ennis one way or the other. And if Ennis' answer was the same as always, Jack would have had to have let him go. He loved him that much.But - as gut-wrenching as this is - i am afraid this is EXACTLY how it was going to happen!
She’s 19, the same age as he was when he met Jack, and he’s making sure that she knows that Kurt loves her so that she won’t have to go through the next twenty years without understanding, as he did.That's a nice point of view. Yes, maybe. However, for me it felt as if he talked to himself. I felt that he wanted the word "love" to be articulated in SOME, ANY way because he was not able to do so himself directly. So, he has this conversation with Jr. where he says - to himself - "Does he [read "Jack"] love you [read "me"]?" - and gets an answer from Jr. "Yes, he [read "Jack"] loves me [read "you"]". This followed by his distant look out of the window repressing tears. That's how this scene felt for me from the first viewing on. That being his final resolution on his relationship with Jack. Too late for them being together, too late for Ennis to fix it so they can be together. Nevertheless, i believe that his "Jack, i swear..." does mean that he commits himself to some change in order to give Jack's death some meaning. I think he will love and treasure Jack beyond his death and work on himself not to do the same mistakes he did with Jack again. This does not mean that he will have a new partner (never ever) or that he will completely come to terms with himself (deal with his trauma - i doubt this will be possible for him to do it alone) or that he change drastically everything about himself (this is still Ennis! he will do tiny steps, but no drastic changes) or that he will tell everybody that he loved a man / hang the shirts outside the closet (this is a totally private issue and nobody's business). I think he will fight his patterns of rejection and abandonment - in the name of his honoring memory of Jack.
Doesn't matter when the dozy embrace took place - it took place on the mountain! And this is where both of them should have felt free from any fears or shame, so it absolutely does not fit...I agree with you, the dozy embrace seemed to happen outside of time. It could have been a flashback, a dream, a vision, wishful thinking. But I think it really did happen and the reason so is because of Ennis's reticence, his embrace of Jack from behind. Ennis's homophobia was so deeply ingrained that even on the mountain, he couldn't shake his fears/shame. A glimmer of hope is in Jack's parting words, "See you in the morning" and I think of that morning as the sunrise on a day when all people will learn to accept and embrace the differences that make us human beings.
...about those debates on being "gay" - whether or not they were gay and which one of them was more gay and etc... I'm sorry, but, honestly, i don't get these discussions. For me it's - who the f cares?? Sure, the fear of being publicly together with a man is a major subject in this story, but for me it's all about their love and longing for each other against the background of some childhood trauma, not about their sexual inclinations (or whatever). I don't think either of them was gay. Ennis had never find any other men attractive apart from Jack and for Jack those visits to Mexico and Randall were just substitutes in his strong longing for Ennis. I just can't understand why people would say this makes Jack gay.
They were obviously not attracted to women, except in a dalliance kind of way or as beards. They were obviously attracted to each other on several different levels.
I still think the chronological order of events is water-walking-Jesus-sinner-talk -> dozy embrace -> FNIT.