"count upon nothing, but make your own nest against the storm"
"I lit the nightlamp and set it by the bed, and watched with him, til at morning the embalmers came to take him from me and fill him with everlasting myrhh."
-The Persian Boy by Mary Renault
I love the character of Bagoas...she took a handful of historical records of his existance and created this incredible person that endured so much yet never grew bitter...
I find myself thinking on what she wrote very often. So many lessons to learn from her...she was a very wise woman...
Glad to meet another fan too!!
Have you read "Mary Renault - A Biography," by David Sweetman? It's an authorised biography and has lots of lovely pics on Mary and her partner,Julia Mullard. It is published by Harcourt Brace & Co.
Here's another wonderful description of Alexander by Bagoas, from "The Persian Boy":
"He was seemly in sleep, his mouth closed, his breathing silent, his body fresh and sweet. The room smelled of sex and cedarwood, with the tang of salt from the sea. Autumn drew on, the night wind blew from the north. I drew the blanket over him; without waking, he moved to me in the great bed, seeking warmth."
So beautiful.
Kerry
The Persian Boy is my very favorite. Do you have a fave?
there is a quote in the front of "The Nature of Alexander" (I don't see my copy right off...may be in my son's room..and I ain't going in there...I value my life and limbs!! :laugh:) but it says in effect that you should judge someone by the standards of their OWN time.
It is interesting to me to see how Alexander is portrayed and how she made such a strong arguement against some of the myths surrounding him. For example the story that he was a raging alcoholic...the facts don't back that charge up...
and how the Athenians worked so hard to destroy his legacy..and why...
The Persian Boy is my favourite. I've read it many times over the years.
"The certainty is that he never became uxorious. With Hephaestion he remained in love, at a depth where the physical relationship becomes almost irrelevant; and years later Bagoas was still his recognized eromenos. He had been disinhibited, not reversed, and had now achieved the normal Greek bisexuality."
Kerry
I go back to the phrase that we should judge people by their own ages and not by our own moral standards...
there does not appear (to me) any evidence that casual sexual activity was frowned upon or considered cheating...the concept is a Victorian one to me...
at that time most men had multiple partners throughout their lives...slaves kept for sexual purposes, the famous hetarias of Athens...while I am sure Hephaistion was not OVERJOYED at the presence of a sex slave in Alexanders household it would not have been an unusual arrangement at all in that period. Remember also that most soldiers took women and boys from conquered towns to use as concubines even though most had wives back in Macedon. And in Persia itself harems were the norm..
One of my favorite things about The Persian Boy is the tender love that Bagoas expresses for Alexander...here is this slave that has spent the last four years being sold to men and as a concubine but he seems so innocent in the love he develops for Alexander...
"But although in my calling I felt as old as time, my heart, which no one had trained, was young, and suddenly it mastered me"
these are the first books I have ever seen that accept homosexuality completely...it is not presented as an 'issue' just a normal part of life...(and isn't it?)
hi Kerry!
you promised a description of Hephaistion from "The Nature of Alexander"!!
Alexander's appetitie for Bagoas/boys didn't fade throughout his life, why should his desire for Hephaestion fade either, especially with love as its basis and the oft commented fact that Hephaestion was one of the best looking men around?
Since Renault carried over the same characters into 'The Persian Boy', I find I have a lot of sympathy for how Renault's Hephaestion must have felt to see Alexander - the man he is deeply in love with and always desired - suddenly discover he likes sex a lot, enough to have a 'boy' live in his tent with him - leaving Hephaestion out in the cold.
I imagine the rejection and constant heartbreak of Hephaestion must have felt whenever I read 'The Persian Boy', so it's not one of my favorites.
Not so much as cheating, but the idea that Renault's Hephaestion longed for, hungered for, more physical affection from Alexander and instead Alexander gave it to Bagoas and pages and his wives and concubines. I'm sure Hephaestion had his own pieces around, but it's not the same as getting it from the person you love and it appears from the 'Persian Boy' that Alexander rarely gave in to Hephaestion's physical desires.
Sad for him. Though you are right, Hephaestion was probably not happy at all, but he would not lower himself to feel things like jealousy as if he were in competition with slaves and dancing boys.
Hi there, Injest. You're up late tonight. It's New Year's Eve here in Sydney and I'm looking forward to watching the fireworks from my place later-on :o Happy New Year to you! :laugh: I look forward to further chats with you about "you know who" in the new year. I have a confession for your ears only! Do you promise not to tell another soul? ;) Here it is - I was in love with Alexander and Hephaestion long before Jack and Ennis emerged from the brilliant imagination of Annie Proulx. Doen't mean I love Jack and Ennis any less. They're all tragic, star-crossed lovers who died young - except Ennis that is! Makes me so sad to think of that lonesome trailer he ended up in? :'(
LOL
Kerry
well, I didn't know anything about Alexander...and The Persian Boy was the first of her novels I read....you have no idea how upset I was when he died!! Just a tear jerker! it DID feel so much like BBM!!
{{{{Kerry}}}}
I just met you but I already think of you as an old friend!!
Happy New Year!!
XX
(where do you live, Kerry? I am in Texas)
now see I don't think it was that big a drought for old Hephaistion...at least in The Persian Boy Bagoas commented that he was often left in camp while they went off on campaign...
and we all know how you men are when you get out in the woods in a tent!!
The Last of the Wine!! ;)
or you can do a poll; I had thought that reading them in the order of the dates of the novels would be best...and if you did that The King Must Die would be the first...
in order by the dates of the events in each
The King Must Die - Theseus
The Bull From the Sea - a continuation of The King Must die
The Praise Singer - Aristigieton and Harmodias
The Last of the Wine - Socrates and the Spartan war
The Mask of Apollo - Plato
Fire From Heaven - Alexander the Great's childhood to ascension
The Persian Boy - Alexander's reign
Funeral Games - events immediately following his death
and she has a novel set during World War 1 "The Charioteer"
It is a very special story isn't it? that scene in the mountains when Alexis has run away from home and the old priest shows him the statue in the temple....
brings me to tears to think of it...and so true...there is no name for that pain in our language but we all recognise it..
For my first Mary Renault book, can you recommend one? I'd love to read and discuss. Shall we have a poll?
I am trying to get all hard backs of her books...and my pride and joy are four first editions!
well I know I could probably order a hardback of each of them...but that would kinda be cheating...and we enjoying prowling around used books stores..
very nice post, Kerry
there were so many male couples back in antiquity. The concept was much more acceptable in those days.
I guess if we'd been a fly on the wall, way back there in Persia, we may very well have overheard Hephaestion say to Alexander, "I can't make it on a couple of high-altitude fucks once or twice a year." :o LOL
Kerry ;)
When we look back at the ancient world, it is very important to remember that it is an era that existed long before our present Christian era, with all its moral hang-ups and prudery. Alexander, Hephaestion and Bagoas were men of their times, not ours. As for Bagoas being a "boy," it is my understanding that he was a "youth" when he met Alexander, not a child.
I can find no evidence that Alexander had any relationships with "boys." In this, he was proudly Macedonian, not Athenian!
Alexander was the King. He did it "because he could." It's that simple! Hephaestion would have known and understood this, and loved Alexander no less because of it.
Someone's already pointed this out, but Bagoas was 16 at the time of the book, a teenager, but still considered a boy. In the book, Bagoas himself uses the term for lover and beloved. The Beloved being the 'boy'. When he first sees Hephaestion and Alexander interact, he's surprised Alexander is already someone's 'boy'.As you say, "Bagoas was 16 at the time of the book." Nuff said.
Well, so was Phillip and he was famous for his relationships with boys. I forgot where I read about Alexander and his favorite page. The writer was speaking of Alexander's boy comparing unfavorably with Hephaestion. It may come from a legitimate source or from pseudo-Callisthenes, I don't remember. I'll have to paw through every source material I have on Alexander to find it again. I went through a huge Alexander phase when the movie came out, and I read a bunch of books on him and even went so far as to order this professor's dissertation on Hephaestion.Alexander and Philip did not enjoy a loving father/son relationship. They didn't have a lot in common, from what I can see.
Ah, it's good to be king. Certainly Hephaestion understood it and probably didn't love Alexander any less for it, but that doesn't mean he liked it.It is my personal belief that Hephaestion never ceased loving Alexander. Just like Jack never ceased loving Ennis. :'(
Alexander and Philip did not enjoy a loving father/son relationship. They didn't have a lot in common, from what I can see.
Let's remember that the pages you refer to were not the little girly boys with page-boy haircuts of fairytale fame. These pages were tough young louts, hardened by years on campaign. They were not delicate in any way. And they were young men - not boys.
With respect, steer clear of Alexander according to Oliver Stone (LOL). Though, having said that, I did enjoy the movie - but strictly as a confection.
Actually except for the psychological angle of Alexander in the movie which was pure conjecture, Stone was extremely accurate in his movie almost to a fault.Now that's what I call a page-boy hair-do - on Alexander! :o Ugh! ::)
Now that's what I call a page-boy hair-do - on Alexander! :o Ugh! ::)
There was a joke going around at the time:
"Hey, have you heard that Alexander the Great was a homosexual? And IRISH!!! :laugh:
Well, that's not surprising seeing as how Phillip was away a lot on campaign. Alexander was very likely his mother's son more than he was his father's.
As I recall reading, the pages were under the age of 18. At about 18 or so, they went into the army. So yes, they were at times, boys.
Actually except for the psychological angle of Alexander in the movie which was pure conjecture, Stone was extremely accurate in his movie almost to a fault.
on what are you basing your definition of boy? yes, Alexanders pages moved into the Companions when they turned 18....that doesn't mean that other teens weren't serving already in the reg regiments...
I understand that Lee is beginning to read The Last of The Wine...Kerry, do you have a copy? Can we discuss the first chapter?
Lee, are you ready or shall we give you a bit more time?
I think we are getting far from the original intent of this thread...which is to discuss the books. I understand and accept you are not a fan of Ms. Renault. So I will no longer engage you on this point....
I went two places to find it yesterday. There were lots of Renault books but not that one. I'll try again tonite, but if I can't find it, then I will order it on Amazon.Do you have a gay book shop where you live? I live in Sydney's gay ghetto and there's an excellent gay book shop here. It has the most wonderful selection of novels, biographies, auto-biographies, diaries, stationery, calendars, etc. It's a wonderful place to visit and browse through. If you have something similar where you live, they're sure to have it.
I loved her 'Fire from Heaven' and "Nature of Alexander', just not 'The Persian Boy'.
The Persian Boy wasn't one of my favorites either. Why I recommended The Last of the Wine. :-\
The story of Alexias (the uncle) and Philon touches me so much…even the way it is presented…not as a ‘gay’ thing…just a normal accepted even admired relationship. And the nobility and love they showed….Philon didn’t call for Alexias…wanting to protect him, and I wonder if Alexias really felt himself getting sick or did he just love Philon so much he couldn’t bear for him to go on that journey alone?
now see I do NOT see Alexias's mother like that at all!!
I took that passage to mean that when she felt herself sicken is when she ordered him away...remember she pleaded for his life...
"....the midwife had handed me over to my mother to nurse. This annoyed my father; for she had taken a fancy to me after this, as women will, and being rather weak and feverish begged for my life with tears..."
it is very interesting to see how Alexias (the narrator of the story talks about the situation with an almost clinical, detached air)
Also interesting to see the attitude toward women...we are viewed as having little sense at all!
His father is presented as a very stern, proper man; wealthy and respected...but also a bit soft hearted...remember that in this time it was pretty common to expose unwanted or unhealthy infants...(as it is still in some countries) He wouldn't take Alexias from his mother's arms by force (he could have easily) and did not order anyone else to do it...which leads me to think that maybe he was 'going thru the motions'
note in the last paragraph that he was fond of Alexias's mother...must have been a horrible time for him too...losing so much...
You guys go ahead...I went out at lunchtime to another bookstore but they still did not have it. I bought the only MR book they had (The King Must Die) and ordered Last of the Wine. I'll catch up with you next week when it arrives.
I agree. In Australia, we call such a person a "rough diamond" (eluding to an uncut diamond - rough of the outside but with the potential for beauty/greatness underneath). I laughed at the line about the father being "fond" of his wife. The implication being, for me, that he didn't love her - was just fond of her. Your thoughts?
well it is difficult for me to explain...(I just read it recently and it is hard to divorce information that comes later...) BUT if you look at the general attitude toward women...the patronizing tone...the dismissing of their opinions...together with the knowledge that in those days men considered women to be for begetting children only...fond is about the best you can expect...you will see as we get further in the book...can we revisit this later?
interesting too (to me) is the aside MR throws in about the source of the plague....the WOMEN blame (correctly) the contaminated water supply while the vastly 'superior' men assume it is a curse from the gods for some imagined sin....and laugh at the women...
interesting too (to me) is the aside MR throws in about the source of the plague....the WOMEN blame (correctly) the contaminated water supply while the vastly 'superior' men assume it is a curse from the gods for some imagined sin....and laugh at the women...
interesting to me that Alexias does not say that women didn't have enough sense to understand logic and philosophy but that they were ignorant of them..interesting choice of words..
there is a lovely scene in this chapter of the relationship between Alexias and his father...Alexias has struck a slave and his father walks in.
He tells Alexias to bring him his shield. Alexisa can not lift it...and this is what his father tells him:
"When you are man enough to carry a shield, you will learn how it happens that men are sold into slavery, and their children born in it. Till then, it is enough for you to know that Amasis and the rest are slaves, not through any merit of yours, but by the destiny of the heaven."
I think of classes we have today....whenever someone sneers at poor people or minorities or gays...it is their destiny...they don't choose to be that way..
no I haven't had a chance to get it...the biography..
I am interested at how this chapter depicts Alexias's father...as being a fair and just man but very distant and involved with his own affairs...he engaged a nurse and didn't seem to notice that his child was suffering...he held supper parties...I get the impression that his father is ambitious.
It is clear that Alexias views his father as a object of awe but not protection or solace...
David!!! What are you doing up at this time of night?! It's only 7pm here in Sydney, but I figure it must be very late in Indianapolis! :o
Grab yourself a copy of "The Last of the Wine" and join our Mary Renault Book Club. :laugh:
Do that tomorrow! Go to bed first! ;)
Hmmm.... I guess I will go back and read this thread from the very beginning. I saw a post from Jess and Kerry and I started checking out this thread on the 7th page. It's as if I'm listening to half of a telephone conversation.
Serves me right for evesdropping, huh?? ???
I have some reading ahead of me tomorrow, I guess. :)
I must stop rabbiting-on about history and concentrate on what's in the book. I admire your focus and insight. I'm enjoying having a female perspective. I have only ever read MR solitarily through the eyes of a man; albeit a sensitive, romantically inclined, gay man; but a man, nonetheless. I'd not appreciated this until now. In the past, I suspect I was concentrating on the grunt, the biffo and the sex! ::)
I was aware of the romance, but I guess I was preoccupied with the harshness of the times. The blood and guts! Even in the highly charged romantic scene with Alexander in the great bed with Bagoas in "The Persian Boy," I'm most drawn to the way MR describes the smell of "sex and cedarwood" in the room! Grunt! :o
I love the way you are looking through the wide eyes of the infant Alexias, watching his "beautiful" (sigh!) father march off to war, resplendent in his polished and beplumed armour. I've still got a crush on this cocky, arrogant, peacock of a man. However, as I'm not reading ahead and only taking one chapter at a time, I suspect I may come to regret any misplaced admiration I have for him. Am I right? Go on, you can tell me ;)
Nooooo dooooon't! I'm enjoying it too much, to have the plot given away ahead of time! (comment aside to self - "I bet daddy dearest ends up being a real bastard, just like John Twist!")
Let's discuss the Rhodian?
Your turn!!! ;D
LOOK at all these eaves lying around....David musta dropped 'em!
LOL!
Welcome to our little club, David...now get to reading!
One thing about all her books is that they "feel" real, like she's personally experienced these things, her Bagoas character was tremendous and she really can get you hot for the guys described! The only thing that irks me is that most of the characters portray this concept of "greek love" where the sexual attractions are broadened to include both male and female. She doesn't really write about any truly gay male / female only characters - or is my memory slipping ::)
Hey Zander!
Welcome! Good to see you here. Grab a copy of "The Last of the Wine" and join our Mary Renault Book Club. We're only up to chapter 2, so you haven't missed a lot.
(Aside to Jess - Gad, we're only up to chapter 2 and have already filled eight pages!!!) :o
Kerry :)
I feel like I am in a University Literature classroom. I greatly appreciate the history and friendly and interesting discussion and comments by everyone. I bought my copy of TLOTW. I may not have anything to contribute to the discussions but eagerly look forward to each post.
Doug
Hey Zander!I've already read it - I think I've read all the Mary Renault books she was one of my favorites. I'm following where you've got up to and interst should be given to the relationship between Alexis and his father (and also his father's past history ;) ) My comment was a generalisation that although there are relationships between the sexes, we don't get the unimpeachable evidence of a character we would recognise as "homosexual" / Gay in our modern context.
Welcome! Good to see you here. Grab a copy of "The Last of the Wine" and join our Mary Renault Book Club. We're only up to chapter 2, so you haven't missed a lot.
(Aside to Jess - Gad, we're only up to chapter 2 and have already filled eight pages!!!) :o
Kerry :)
I feel like I am in a University Literature classroom. I greatly appreciate the history and friendly and interesting discussion and comments by everyone. I bought my copy of TLOTW. I may not have anything to contribute to the discussions but eagerly look forward to each post.
Doug
I KNOW!! I was thinking "Lort we are gonna be six months on this one book! But I am sure having fun with it!
(You tell me if/when you want to speed up...like I said I am having fun!)
Just my thoughts on the name thing...MR is putting us firmly in the mind of this child, although we do get flashs of the adult Alexias in the text, and children are very self centered. We get the important names (to a child) the name of his namesake and I think we get the name of Alcibiades for later...but a young child doesn't think of his parent as anything but daddy. (Just my 2 cents)
One thing about all her books is that they "feel" real, like she's personally experienced these things, her Bagoas character was tremendous and she really can get you hot for the guys described! The only thing that irks me is that most of the characters portray this concept of "greek love" where the sexual attractions are broadened to include both male and female. She doesn't really write about any truly gay male / female only characters - or is my memory slipping ::)
now the Rhodian! we are not going to hear anything good of her (and can you blame him!) even the description...slim and 'swarthy'?? no woman would want to be described as SWARTHY!! that invokes a big ol hairy neanderthal!! yes, it means dark and all but yuck! LOL! and to imply that she is some half breed...(strain of Egyptian) ALexias is subtly insulting her.
I've already read it - I think I've read all the Mary Renault books she was one of my favorites. I'm following where you've got up to and interst should be given to the relationship between Alexis and his father (and also his father's past history ;) ) My comment was a generalisation that although there are relationships between the sexes, we don't get the unimpeachable evidence of a character we would recognise as "homosexual" / Gay in our modern context.
You all are scaring me a little because I have NO idea what you all are talking about.
I think I'm too stupid for this thread. :-\
Maybe if I reread it another 100 times I'll understand it a little. :P ... :)
You all are scaring me a little because I have NO idea what you all are talking about.
I think I'm too stupid for this thread. :-\
Maybe if I reread it another 100 times I'll understand it a little. :P ... :)
thanks , Professor Kerry , for your enthusiasm and intriguing additions and supportive information and insights for this wonderful and lively discussion. I look forward to each post " lecture" eventhough I am sitting in the back of the lecture room admiring you and your expertise. Will you be using an overhead projection for visuals of the people, places and things ? What a handsome professor we have for this wonderful course in classical civilization !!!
You all are scaring me a little because I have NO idea what you all are talking about.Naaah don't be put off MR is a fantastic read and TLOTW is an excellent book. Kerry is answering very fully my question about homosexuality and exactly what that means in terms of the culture and times in which MR set these stories. My point is, just to provoke debate, is that MR never created a character that we in todays society, would term as wholly Gay (considersing she was gay herself) - there was always the "get out clause" of this is the culture of the times etc. I think this was because she may have feared a backlash from modern society at the time of publishing. Bagoas (The Persian Boy), who was mentioned earlier was a captured prince and was castrated as a youth just entering puberty. He had very little choice about how to gain sexual pleasure he was "created" as a sex slave by the act of capture and castration so he has an "excuse".
I think I'm too stupid for this thread. :-\
Maybe if I reread it another 100 times I'll understand it a little. :P ... :)
now there is an idea!! LOL!Well you did ask!
we need some pics!!
now there is an idea!! LOL!
we need some pics!!
Or maybe Daddy Dearest looked like this:
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o126/kez4oz/ApolloBelvedere.jpg)
(the Apollo Belvedere - Roman copy of Greek original)
Professor Kerry, would you please comment on the significance of "The Old Man" ?
I think he models for a Herm so it would be more of a Hermes / Eros look (Eros isn't that intersting ;) ) The Herm was often just depicted as a phallus, so again something to consider about the skills of MR.
(http://www.theoi.com/image/S11.3Hermes.jpg)
Sweet dreams...the "Old Man" I was asking you to comment on is " The Old Man" who becomes Alexias' friend at school.
Do ya'll believe in this 'second sight' Socrates claims? I do....my father could foretell deaths...on more than three occassions he woke us in the night to tell us a relative was dead. (at the time we had no phone how he knew they were dead and the circumstances of their demise is a mystery)
I am a little jealous of you Kerry...I have everything memorized!! :laugh:
how fun to be rediscovering this wonderful book!
Damn Jess! You memorized the whole book? How many times did you read it?
Maybe I should go to the bookstore and buy it. :)
and we haven't even gotten to the sex scenes....whew!!!
the woman can write!!
and it is not a big book....it reads very easily, goes down very smoothly!!
you will love it and have all the others in no time!
Hell, you all are being more than passionate.... you're making love to the damn thing.
Again, I jest. ;)
well the next chapter is 28 pages long!! so everyone kick off your shoes and loosen your belts...we gonna be here a while...
MR put a lot of wisdom in the words she gave Socrates...how much of it was actual quotes from the real Socrates and how much she made up I don't know. (It is my understanding that Socrates left no written records of his teachings and the only things we know of him are from the writings of contempories including Plato)
sometimes it is not so much what everyone thinks that is important...sometimes for our own souls we have to do as WE think is important...
there is a line in this chapter when Alexias encounters Socrates for the first time....he forms a friendship with this 'old' man...a little lonely boy and just devastated when he left..
he couchs his thoughts with a side step...
"It may be that I thought 'Here is a father who would not think me a disgrace to him (for he is ugly himself) but would love me, and would not want to throw me away on the mountain' I do not know"
My heart breaks for this little boy who feels SO unloved and ugly....how much he carried on his young shoulders!! not only did he have this legacy from his namesake but his handsome father! what HUGE shoes he had to feel no wonder he was over whelmed and withdrawn...
no!
not til I bring us back to the issue of names....we hear of 'the Rhodian', Alcibiades, Sokrates, and his father...but the last line in this chapter is
"Not long after this my father married his second wife, Arete, the daughter of Archagoras."
now....here he is giving this woman a very high honor indeed...traditionally that is how he would introduce a man! not only do we get HER name but her father's name. This is no trivial liason...no this is a true Athenian Lady! The ONLY time in the book this far that anyone gets such an honor!
Knowing how he felt toward 'the Rhodian' what does this tell you about Arete??
Kerry?
an overview of what we will see in Chapter 3...
this is a long chapter...with a LOT going on...Alexias is now 15 (and attracting men's attention already...this 'ugly' child)....the Athenians are preparing to go to war against Syracuse....the city is in an uproar over a night of vandalism...we meet Xenophon (the famed horseman)...Socrates makes another appearance....
and
and
LYSIS!!
*swoon*
People will be putting their Christmas trees back up by the time you all finish discussing that chapter.
Hunker down.
I think he models for a Herm so it would be more of a Hermes / Eros look (Eros isn't that intersting ;) ) The Herm was often just depicted as a phallus, so again something to consider about the skills of MR.
My point of debate is - do we think MR was avoiding creating a "gay" character even though all her books use homosexuality as a key theme. Might be a bit too soon to debate this, lets see what people think as the progress further through TLOTW ;)
To quote my previous post in which I quoted from the "Oxford Companion to Classical Civilisation" (Oxford University Press):
"The application of 'homosexuality' (and 'heterosexuality') in a substantive or normative sense to sexual expression in classical antiquity is not advised."
SURELY you are not saying that all those teenage boys laid very still and never once enjoyed ANY of the sex...I would find that very hard to believe in context of the very passionate poems and odes we have from that time...
I can accept that it was not spoken of in polite society but the idea of the younger never once showing sexual interest a little far fetched...
one source I read, and of course I don't remember where....said that ORAL sex was frowned upon..."a man who was known to engage in oral sex was not offered the common cup at a banquet....interesting to note he was invited though" but anal intercourse was considered the 'norm'...
I do agree that for an adult man to want to be the receiver would bring derision...but for the younger? no...
Kerry can you give us a background on the significance of a Herm? What are they for...what did they mean to the ancient people??
GOOD LORD HAVE MERCY!! :o
Every time I stick my nose in here,... well, I just never know what I may find in here!
I hope you all are having a great evening. :)
GOOD LORD HAVE MERCY!! :o
Every time I stick my nose in here,... well, I just never know what I may find in here!
I hope you all are having a great evening. :)
what do you mean?? we are discussing a book..not like in your sad little thread where people ramble endlessly about anything....
Hey David!
It's getting on to 2pm on Sunday afternoon where I am. Glorious sunny high-Summer day here in Sydney. Cold where you are, I'm guessing? Snow?
I'm off to read chapter 3 now. Finally made it to page 11!!! Catch ya later! :)
very good...then we will lay that aside and continue with chapter three....which starts out with one of the most beautiful evocative scenes I have ever read...the view that morning Alexias saw from the Acropolis....
the description of the ships sitting like a city of lights on the sea...the dawn breaking and details emerging from the mist...just beautiful...
such a proper young man...well brought up! you'll not find the son of Myron chatting up men in the marketplace!!
the 'groper' Kritias...truly scum...make a note of him, he will show up again!!
<-------- is evesdropping. :D
since you bring up the party...I loved Alexias response when told he would serve the men...
"'Who I?' I was much affronted; I had never been asked to serve tables, except at public dinners where lads of good family do it by custom. 'Are the slaves sick or what?'"
how typical!! teenagers are teenagers everywhere and anytime!!
and he already knew Kritias...who seemed to already have a bit of a reputation among the young men...
"I was old enough to have received some attentions from men, while still young enough to think them rather absurd; as, for that matter, the kind of person who chases young boys usually is. But I had never been inclined to laugh at Kritias"
At the party Kritias waits til Myron is looking away...
"Kritias moved his cup a little, so that the wine spilled down my clothes. On this he put his hand under the hem of my tunic in such a way that, to everyone but me, he would have seemed to be feeling the cloth"
how arrogant and slimy!! right there in front of everyone he is groping this teen...and putting him in such a position he can't say anything without causing a scene.
what does this tell us about Kritias? He comes from a life of privilege...he feels that he is above the rules that others have to follow...that he views other people as things to be used for his own ends...
but I am probably coloring my opinion by what is coming rather than what is in this chapter!!
ok...a bit of background first (for David the dropper of eaves)
at the first of the chapter Alexias arises early to go see the fleet about to embark on an invasion of Syracuse and to purchase flowers for a dinner party his father is giving that evening...he left in the dark and when he returns it is light and he finds the Herm out front of the house has been vandalized!! A troubling event...his father takes one look and says the house must be purified! About this time they hear a commotion; turns out several houses have had their Herms vandalized....
the city is in an uproar, this is a very bad omen to happen right on the eve of the launch of the new campaign....
Who has committed this outrage??! some say it is the Spartans, some that the Herms had been damaged here and there and no one noticed, some that this or that group had done it; and some accused Alkibiades (remember?? the young god who had once relieved himself in the garden of Alexias's house during a dinner party?)
Everyone is abuzz wondering who has brought this bad luck down on the city....
but Alexias must go off to school....everyone is ill at ease and gossiping...he is relieved when it is time to burn off some energy in the gymnasium....they go out and strip off (remember this is Greece and all exercise is taken nude)...everyone is talking and yelling so loudly no one can hear so their instructor takes a few boys off to coach and set the rest to practising their wrestling moves.
Men who are not exercising, are strolling around the grounds arguing and debating who has committed this horrible outrage of destroying the Herms...Alkiabides is named as a possible suspect...gossip is that he broke the Herms in arrogance and a drunken spree...
(a bit of background...Socrates was Alkibiades's teacher, and people blame him for anything Alkibiades does wrong....he is not one to deal lightly with BS and tends to anger people who can not follow his logic so he is not well liked by the general populace)
So Alexias sees Socrates involved in a loud argument with a man and goes over to stretch his ears...the argument gets heated and the man gives Socrates a ringing blow on the head...everyone is outraged but Socrates is not...he nods at the man and says
"Thank you. Now we can all see the force of your arguement"
the man raises his fist to strike again and out from Socrates friends steps a young man...
"and caught the man by the wrist. I knew who it was, not only from seeing him with Socrates or about the city, but because there was a bronze statue of him in Mikkos's hallway, done when he was about sixteen. He was a former pupil, who had won a crown for wrestling, while still in school, at the Panathenaic Games. He was said too to have been among the notable beauties of his year, which one could still believe with no trouble. I saw his name every day, since it was written on the base of the statue; Lysis, son of Demokrates of OExone"
he calmly used a wrestling hold to force the man back and tumbled him down the steps and into the dirt of the wrestling grounds...much to the delight of the boys...
the men went about their conversation...and Alexias stood admiring Lysis...
then Lysis turned and saw him...
Kerry??
would you like to cover this scene for us??
LOL!
and while we are talking real historical characters we can't pass up Alexias's classmate and friend, Xenophon...anyone that has ever had dealings with horses will recognise that name!
MR is quite the name dropper!!
She visits the story again in "The Praise Singer" where she tells the story in great detail from the viewpoint of a contemporary....
If you haven't read it; it will break your heart
"The youth had killed for pride, but the man for love: from anger at the hurt to his beloved, and that one man should have the power to do it; from fear that he had the power to take the beloved away."
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
"Shall I tell you the sin of Alkibiades? He was born too late to into a City of little men. Why did the mob banish Aristides the Just? Because they were sick of hearing his virtue praised. The admitted it. It shamed them. Now they hate to see beauty and wit, valour and birth and wealth, united in one man. What keeps the democracy alive at all but the hatred of excellence; the desire of the base to see no head higher than their own?"
"Justice? If the gods give a man wisdom or forethought, or skill, must he be brought down as if had got them by theft? We shall be laming the best athletes soon, at the demand of the worst, in the name of justice. Or some citizen with pockmarks and a squint will lay a complaint against such a boy as this" (here he pointed suddenly at me) "and his nose will be broken, I suppose, for justice's sake."[/color]
I see parellels to our own times...the schools that have banned tag or spelling bees to 'protect' childrens egos...
even handicapped parking spots for an ever widening group of complaints and ailments...
Love your Herms Kerry, I wonder if our modern habit of installing garden "statues" / birdtables etc stem from this?
I would be pleased to.
There is a great deal going on here. Jess has already described the turmoil in the city. Because Sokrates is an associate of Alkibiades, and Alkibiades is being blamed by many for the desecration of the Herms; ergo, Sokrates, through association, is also being linked to the violation. Sokrates has a reputation for not necessarily being a particularly “religious” man. Because he is so publicly out there, in the agora, he is attracting attention and abuse.
Let us not underestimate the enormity of this despicable outrage. It is an aggressive, forthright attack on the Gods - by mere mortals! Far more serious than common vandalism. There’s a great deal of tension in the City. People are very stressed. Tempers are at boiling point. How will the Gods get even?
A man has lost his temper with Sokrates and is shouting at him. Sokrates holds his own, shouting back, though also using reason, trying to convince the man that Alkibiades should be considered innocent until proven guilty, “The law of evidence for instance?” says Sokrates.
I smiled when the hot-head called Sokrates a cunning snake who could argue black white. I have no doubt that this is true, on both counts!
The man strikes Sokrates. How does Sokrates react? Does he reciprocate in kind or verbally? No. In reality, Socrates was known for his sense of humour and MR obviously knew this from her research, because she provided Sokrates with these words, “Thank you. Now we can all see the force of your argument.” It made me laugh. Sokrates the pacifist, turning the other cheek, looong before Jesus Christ or Mahatma Ghandi!
At this point, we are introduced to Lysis for the first time. He is in the company of Sokrates and comes to his defence. A noble young man. And we know he didn’t lose his temper because we are told that even as he was repelling the attacker’s advance, he retained a calm demeanour, “as if he were sacrificing.” I loved that!
When Kriton tries to convince Sokrates to sue the street thug, Sokrates responds, “Last year an ass bolted in the street and kicked you; but I don’t recall you suing him.” Priceless!
And he chastises Lysis also with, “Just when he was starting to doubt the force of his argument, you re-stated it for him with eloquence and conviction.” That put the young buck, Lysis, right back in his place!
Though there are no overt fireworks between Alexias and Lysis at this meeting, there is a great deal of simmering underlying sexual tension between them.
This is what we are told about Lysis:
* Alexias had seen him with Sokrates in the past. I’m guessing that Alexias thought he stood-out from the crowd.
* A bronze statue had been made of him when he was 16.
* Alexias saw his name “every day” on the base of the statue, so he must have been admiring it.
* Alexias comments that someone should do a new statue of him now that he is a man. This means to me that Alexias thinks he is beautiful and should be immortalised in bronze.
* He won a crown for wrestling.
* He was “among the notable beauties of his year, which one could still believe without trouble.”
* He was tall and slim.
* He is gracious and courteous. Well-bred. I know this because after he has defended Sokrates, we are told that he looks at Sokrates, “as if with apology for his intrusion.“
* Alexias has seldom heard his voice (could be somewhat like Ennis in this regard?!), except at the horse races, when his voice can be heard over everyone else. Alexias has made a point of listening for his voice! There are sparks!
* Lysis is a man of fashion. Metrosexual? He has the new look - a shaved face!
* I love this description which I am compelled to quote verbatim, "His hair, which he wore short, lay half-curled against his head, and being mingled fair and brown, gleamed like a bronze helmet inlaid with gold.” He is beautiful, indeed!
* The scene when Lysis turns around and catches Alexias staring at him is particularly charged with sexual dynamism, “He smiled at me however, as if to say, ‘Come nearer, then, if you like; no one will eat you‘.” Delightful.
Hi ya, Zander. It's possibly the case, but probably unlikely LOL. The pic of Herms posted earlier is a somewhat sanitised version of what they actually looked like. In Athens, they were usually a pretty standard variation on a somewhat elementary theme:
1. Four-sided plinth
2. Head of the God Hermes on top
3. Projections at the shoulders, on which to rest wreaths
4. Colossal great vertical rampant phallus emerged from the plinth
They were placed at the entrances to homes and cities as protective entities.
Since posting the last pic, I have had greater success in locating a more accurate representation of what an Athenian plinth actually looked like:(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o126/kez4oz/GodPriape.jpg)
Though this is a somewhat flippant, homoerotic representation of a sculptor's "relationship" with his Herm, it is, in reality, more likely to be what a plinth really did look like.
I suspect you would probably get very strange looks from your neighbours if you installed an Athenian Herm at your garden gate LOL!
SOMEBODY has been reading ahead! >:( :laugh:Slap my wrists I read this ages ago ;)
Slap my wrists I read this ages ago ;)
*eyes Zander carefully*Not quite (but near ;D)
hmmm don't think so..you may like it too much....
:laugh: :laugh: :-X
well since apparently I am the only person left in the club...(since Kerry has wandered off for more um...'interesting' threads...
so I am just going to mention one last scene and then I am off to the next chapter!
Myron is giving a party for his supper club at his home...Alexias is serving the wine...we mentioned this earlier
When Kritias gropes Alexias there is one man who sees....Kritias takes notice and takes his vengence a few moments later..(no one should DARE to disapprove of him and his will; better to preemptively destroy a possible enemy)
Tellis has fallen on hard time and can no longer afford to host the party or pay his dues...as the debate continues about who may have damaged the Herms and brought bad luck on the city; he speaks up in defence of Alkibiades "No, Myron is right, it was planned to a hair and not be Aldkibiades"
Kritias answers him smoothly "No one, I am sure, will think worse of Tellis for supporting his host"
The men had been drinking, and were full of their affairs. But I, who was watching, saw Tellis' face stiffen, as at the first bite of a sword-thrust. When you have thought yourself among friends, who have given the best proof of their liking of your company, it strikes hard to be called a sycophant for the first time. I knew he would never sup with the club again. I went over to him, and filled his cup, knowing no other way to show how I felt; and he smiled at me, trying to greet me as he always did. Our eyes met above the wine-cup, like men's who have picked up the sound of a lost battle before the trumpet blows the retreat.
oops...one more thing from this chapter!!
Alexias now has a stepmother...
Myron married her when she was fifteen...making her only eight years older than Alexias. She was small and dark (Myron being fond it seemed of dark women) and the only child of a well respected Athenian who had given her a great deal of freedom. She was intelligent and interested in the world around her. Myron would rebuke her for her interest in politics but Alexias told her everything....they were very close and she gave him great comfort after the tyranny of the Rhodian!
Jess, before we move on to Chapter 4, this quote form Chapter 3 has been troubling me. I would be interested in your take on it:No Kerry I think you are quite right here, I think MR uses a cop-out to head off any potential backlashes to her work as per my earlier references to an exclusively "gay" character as discussed in earlier postings. Please don't get me wrong I love MR's work too but she did write for a particular adience at a particular time and I think she had to protect herself.
“I thought I would pray before going, but did not know which altar to turn to; for the gods seemed everywhere, all saying the same word to me, as if they had been not twelve but one. I felt I had seen a mystery, yet knew not what. I was happy. Wishing to praise all gods alike, I stood where I was and lifted my hands to the sky.”
I see this as Renault effectively selling her soul to the devil. A cop-out. On the nose. Not kosher. It’s almost as though she’s hedging her bets and pandering to her predominantly Christian readership here. Alluding to the forthcoming, glorious (Humph, vandalising more like!) Christian era. I am aware of the Dionysian Mysteries, but the word “mystery” used in this context, immediately on the heels of “not twelve but one (god)”, has a decidedly Christian odour attached to it for me.
Am I over-reacting? No-one would be happier than me if you tell me I’m misjudging Renault here, because I love her work, and only want to enjoy it and gain from it. Please tell me I’m wrong. I want you to tell me I’ve got this all wrong, Jess.
I thought when I read that in the context of the story...that she was trying to convey that feeling that you get when you are IN nature and feel full of something more than yourself...the feeling you get sometimes at night when you look at the stars. We don't have words for it so (for me) this is what Alexias would have thought of that feeling... he WOULD have seen it as having to do with the Gods but would have no experience to tell him which god or if in fact it came from the Gods. Remember he is still very young and innocent here..caught up in a moment of awe and wonder.
I think she was just trying to show his confusion...we view it as a foretelling of the Christian god but remember monotheism is not a new concept...the Egyptians have flirted with it themselves...
(I don't see why she would have felt the need to 'cop out' in this book when she didn't in any of her other books...)
OK so where is everyone up to?
I'd love to get back to TLOTW, Zander. It's still sitting here on my desk, exactly where I left it some weeks ago. I've not had the impetus to progress further. I would be happy to recommence our Athenian adventure. Are you and Jess interested?I am but from the standpoint that it's abook I've read and I'm commenting from memory, I suppose we should ask where everyone is with this. I'm always happy to participate ;)
I'd love to get back to TLOTW, Zander. It's still sitting here on my desk, exactly where I left it some weeks ago. I've not had the impetus to progress further. I would be happy to recommence our Athenian adventure. Are you and Jess interested?
humph! He abandons us to run buck wild on the mountainside....and now he is ready to come back???Errrrr... couldn't we discuss buck wild on a mountainside - sounds lottsa fun ;D
OK!!
:laugh: :laugh:
we were on Chapter 3...everyone ready to move to Chapter 4?
Errrrr... couldn't we discuss buck wild on a mountainside - sounds lottsa fun ;D
LOL!! that was 'paraphrasing' a later comment from our book...but describes what he has been doing here on Bettermost!! :P
Have you been looking at his past posts?? Cause he has some 'splaining to do!! >:(
can't just drop comments and run off thinking we country folk know what he is talking about! "dressed head to toe in leather with a colourcoded bandanna in the back pocket" HUH?? Bandannas only come in TWO colors..red and blue....and you pick out which one based on what color you are wearing! and black goes with everything! Silly Kerry!
Chapter 4
Casting a spell that would put the powers of the most beguiling enchantress to shame, Mary Renault conjures this dazzling picture of the ancient port of Piraeus, at its most magnificent. Athens, at the height of its glory.(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o126/kez4oz/Olympia.jpg)Recreated trireme, The Olympia,
docked in Piraeus
Xenophon and I, to escape all this gloom in the City, spent our spare time in Piraeus. Here there was always something new; a rich metic from Phrygia or Egypt might be building himself a house in the style of his former city, or putting up a shrine to one of the gods whom one hardly knew in his foreign dress, with even a dog’s head perhaps or a fish’s tail; or there would be a new shipment in the Emporion of carpets from Babylon, Persian lapis, Scythian turquoises, or tin and amber from the wild Hyperborean places that only Phoenicians know.(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o126/kez4oz/Anubis.jpg)The Egyptian God, Anubis
Our silver owls were the only coinage, then, that was good all over the world. You saw in the wide streets Nubians with plugs of ivory pulling their ears down to their shoulders; long-haired Medes, in trousers and sequin bonnets; Egyptians with painted eyes, wearing only skirts of stiff linen and collars of gems and beads. The air was heavy with the smell of foreign bodies, of spices and hemp and pitch; strange tongues chattered like beast speaking to bird; one guessed at the meaning, and watched the talking hands.
A magical place, indeed.
this is interesting to me, Kerry. Alexias doesn't see these gods as opposing gods...enemies of his own but rather the same gods wearing other forms.
would make for a much more tolerant society if we could all do that.
Gasp! Yes, of course, Alexias would have been naked! ::)
Embarrassing for him? Well, no, not really. He would have been viewed quite quizzically if he'd been running around that track with his clothes on! :laugh:
Ya gotta luv thum thar zany Greeks! Yee-haw! :-* ;) 8)
"Justice? If the gods give a man wisdom, or forethought, or skill must he be brought down as if he had got them by theft? We shall be laming the best athletes soon, at the demand of the worst, in the name of justice. Or some citizen with pockmarks and a squint will lay a complaint against such a boy as this" (here he pointed suddenly at me) "and his nose will be broken I suppose, for justice's sake."
"The Last of the Wine"
Mary Renault
"Men are not born equal in themselves," he saidto me after, "so I think it beneath a man to postulate that they are. If I thought myself as good as Sokrates I should be a fool; and if, not really believing it, I asked you to make me happy by assuring me of it, you would rightly despise me. So why should I insult my fellow citizens by treating them as fools and cowards? A man that thinks himself as good as everyone else will be at no pains to grow better. On the other hand, I might think myself as good as Sokrates, and even persuade other fools to agree with me; but under a democracy, Sokrates is there in the Agora to prove me wrong. I want a City where I can find my equals and respect my betters, whoever they are; and where no one can tell me to swallow a lie because it is expedient, or some other man's will."
"The Last of the Wine"
Mary Renault
Gasp! The perils of political correctness. Very forward thinking, our Mary (in an ancient Greek kinda way)! ;) :D