Good observation! I like the idea that it parallels the bean can incident. In both cases, yeah, he's being distracted by a guy/ flirting, etc.
I love Jack's awkwardness at moments like this. It's adorable.
Actually, at the dance with Randall... I think Jack ashes on himself with his cigarette... I don't think he spills his drink. But, I think the meaning of this little mishap is still the same as the bean can/ Ennis moment.
"So... you wanna dance?" and looking dead-on at Randall first, then glancing at LaShawn right afterwards.
But, I think the meaning of this little mishap is still the same.
Another example he offered is the 4th of July scene immediately followed by (or following?) the Jimbo scene, which he says echo the two Thanksgiving scenes. In all four scenes, Ennis and Jack's manhood is challenged. In the earlier ones, Ennis "wins" the challenge (beats up the bikers) and Jack "loses" (humiliated by Jimbo and possibly the bartender). In the later ones it's the other way around: Ennis loses (gets beat up) and Jack wins (tells off L.D.). Jack has changed and matured; Ennis hasn't. (In both, Ennis' reaction involves physical fighting, whereas Jack uses the more mature approach: words.) And still another example: the final lakeside argument echoes the stretch between Jack and Ennis' fight when they're leaving the mountain and Ennis' collapse in the alley, both also involving Jack getting into his truck and saying he's going to visit his parents.
latjoreme, until very recently, more like in the past few weeks, have members been starting to discuss the differences of the original short story, the "Story to Screenplay" book and the Ang Lee final production of the Movie.
I suggested to Phillip that a major forum area be created to mainly discuss "The Book, The Message & Its Impact;" because Annie Proulx has written in essays, been quoted in print and interviewed in person that many gay men have thanked her for writing the story since it was first published.
If I had never read the story nor even seen any version of the screenplay, I would have a different attitude about how Brokeback Mountain has been presented several different ways to the public.
One reason that I have been claiming that things are my opinion is that some forum members think that I am being hateful when I post something which I believe to be true or have even seen documented elsewhere, in hard copy or on the internet.
Some moderators have told me that I won't be making any friends if I don't tone down my posts. I told Phillip, that so far, I haven't even encountered anyone in the board who even lives within 50 miles of Tulsa, Oklahoma. Even if they did, and they wanted to meet me, they would have to come to Tulsa and even to my home to do that. I don't have personal transportation and local pubic transportation leaves a lot to be desired . . . none on Saturday after 6:00 PM and none on Sunday.
When Jack pulls up to Aguirre's trailer and gets out to kick his truck and look around there's a moment when we see his profile in relative close-up (he's facing right) and there's a "square" of waving grass in the breeze that is delineated by the upper right corner of the frame of the screen itself and the lines formed by the gravel road and a building. I'm really not imagining this (I don't think)... Once you think about it, it's very noticeable.
Jack is--what?--38 years old. Why would he look at a grown man and say ":You wanna dance?"--at a table where 3 people are sitting? Be reasonable. he looks at Lashawn, when he says it, and then at Randall, just before asking his permissiomn.
One thought that occurred to me, though, is that Ennis DOES inarguably say "I'm sorry" to Cassie in the pie scene, which is roughly opposite tent scene 2 ... Hmmm!
I think the Randall situation just has to be left up to individual interpretation. People will always read this scene in different ways. I'm personally still convinced that Jack is asking Randall to dance (in a non-serious way) but that he's assuming that everyone else at the table will presume that he's asking LaShawn. He knows they will assume this, so he takes this opportunity to be playful and also a bit spiteful of Lureen. He can make eye contact with Randall and still have people (people at the table and the viewing audience) assume that he's looking at LaShawn since they're both sitting at relatively the same angle next to Jack. He can look past her, essentially, and at Randall. He then does shift his eyes to look at her once she replies.
I think it's important that he locks eyes with Randall during the conversation at the table, then during the "want to dance?" moment and then again when he stands up with LaShawn. He's sort of speaking in code to Randall here and trying to figure him out... I think this scene is meant to be all about what we'd call "gaydar" these days. Sometimes you have to do strange and bold things to determine whether or not a person might be gay or open to flirting (it's really not some kind of 6th sense). I think, like some of you, that this is what leads to Randall's offer on the bench.
Last week when I watched BBM with a friend (it was her first viewing) she just freaked out at the Randall scene. And, I don't quite know why it struck such a nerve with her. She said something like... "oh no, this guy is trouble."
:laugh:
By the way, why doesn't Randall ask Lureen to dance after Jack and LaShawn get up? I've always thought that was sort of rude of him.
This is kind of the opposite of the Jimbo scene, where Jack's eye contact pisses Jimbo off. The first time I saw it, I didn't get either why Jimbo got mad, nor how Randall knew to extend the cabin offer. Duh! Next time I figured out to watch the eyes.
So, it seems that the Jimbo and Randall scenes adhere to a kind of ink-blot symmetry. Also a yin-yang idea too, since Jimbo is all in white and Randall is represented in dark colors (and the fact that the two encounters have opposite outcomes while they start in the same way... with eye contact, etc.).
Can someone please PM Ang, Diana or Larry and Annie and ask what the hell is going on in this movie??
O0
Last week when I watched BBM with a friend (it was her first viewing) she just freaked out at the Randall scene. And, I don't quite know why it struck such a nerve with her. She said something like... "oh no, this guy is trouble."
What was your reaction to his lie to Ennis about seeing the ranch foreman's wife?
When they do talk about relationships, they are always "translated" into straight ones: Jack substitutes "ranch foreman's wife" for "ranch foreman". Even Alma, knowing what she knows, asks why Ennis doesn't get remarried. They just have no context for saying these things. Jack simply can't speak the truth because he's trying to broach the subject of their relationship for the very first time. Jack cannot refer to Randall, but he still needs to tell Ennis how he feels. In this way, Jack is just as homophobic as Ennis (but for different reasons).
I guess a part of me wants you to also say that the last half an hour never happened. Scratch below the surface of stability and there's still a traumatised Brokie here desperate for someone to tell me: s'alright.
I think the Randall situation just has to be left up to individual interpretation. People will always read this scene in different ways. I'm personally still convinced that Jack is asking Randall to dance (in a non-serious way) but that he's assuming that everyone else at the table will presume that he's asking LaShawn. He knows they will assume this, so he takes this opportunity to be playful and also a bit spiteful of Lureen.
I think it's important that he locks eyes with Randall during the conversation at the table, then during the "want to dance?" moment
Ya gotta love Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry & Diana Ossana!
And ultimately, I don't think Randall, the individual, was the ultimate demise of Jack, but the 'word' that got around Childress.
The short-story and notes in the screenplay give me a few more clues as to why Jack lies. In the argument scene (in the screenplay) it says that Jack was thinking "here it comes" when Ennis starts up about Mexico. There's a real sense of what they were doing both physically and emotionally was very different to how they talked to each other, and most importantly how they justified it to themselves. I'm not trying to allude towards denial here, the emphasis is on the unspoken-ness of the relationship.
When they do talk about relationships, they are always "translated" into straight ones: Jack substitutes "ranch foreman's wife" for "ranch foreman". Even Alma, knowing what she knows, asks why Ennis doesn't get remarried. They just have no context for saying these things. Jack simply can't speak the truth because he's trying to broach the subject of their relationship for the very first time. Jack cannot refer to Randall, but he still needs to tell Ennis how he feels. In this way, Jack is just as homophobic as Ennis (but for different reasons).
Now that I think about it though, there are moments when they try to talk about their feelings. Most notably in the motel... in the book Jack says something like "we just have to talk about this..." (I don't have the book in front of me, so I'm paraphrasing). And, clearly in the film Jack is trying to prod Ennis to say more about how he feels. And, after Ennis's comment in the camping trip that he's "sending up a prayer of thanks", Jack says "for what?" He's probably hoping that Ennis will say something real about their situation, but he settles for the cute teasing.
What this also does is make Ennis' revelation and final redemption coincide with audience's understanding. In a way, we were in 'denial' as well but only because we didn't have all the information. In fact, we are given some emotional miss-direction with the Ennis punching Jack as they come down the mountain the first time. IMO, this is way more important than just being a plot device to set up the bloodied shirts.
I sit comfortably in the changes/additions were positive camp myself, if for no other reason that one of my greatest pleasures is to explore the subtle aspects of the film and the book is considerable less subtle. Lately I've seen a few "gripes" about these differences though, and it got me thinking about why they were made, after all they didn't have to make them? ...
A contentious issue for some is that the more emotive dialogue that Ennis has in the book is stripped away leaving the ultimate stoic character, but something of a homophobic shell. We don't hear any of the "lil darlins" or admonitions of "should have never let you outa my sight". ...
So are the changes between the book and the film a bad thing?
Not in my mind they're not, in fact, I'm grateful for them!
I read the story first, but like the movie version better. I find it much more powerful and moving than I did the story, mainly because for me Ennis' internalized homophobia turns it from a drama about the logistical difficulties and very real dangers imposed by a homophobic society into a story about the damage that a homophobic society inflicts on people's souls. (Though Naky, am I understanding your post to suggest that stuff is also in the story, though revealed in a different way?)Well, my post mostly was me trying to understand why both the story and the movie hit me so hard emotionally. But, yes, when I read the story I thought I saw Ennis as a sort of damaged soul. I think.
Am I understanding you correctly, Katherine -- you think that the Motel Siesta conversation (and the 'lil darlin) meant that Ennis accepted his sexuality more, but was afraid of the real external dangers that they might face?
I read the "dozy embrace" scene in the story, especially, as implying that story-Ennis also didn't fully accept how he felt about Jack. (The line about Ennis being unwilling to embrace Jack face-to-face is what kills me. Somebody else on LJ speculated that story-Ennis never kissed Jack until the reunion. The story never says, but I think that's a valid interpretation. So the movie gives us the 2nd tent scene (mmmmmmmmmmm ;D), but it takes away the conversation in the motel.)
I'm not arguing that both movie and book necessarily have the same themes. And certainly different people are more taken by one or by the other. But I think they both have a lot of open space for interpretation, and they both are pretty effective at sneaking up on me emotionally. (The language in the story is so unsentimental, especially when describing the characters. The movie is so restrained. The story has descriptions of what the characters are thinking. The movie has those amazing subtle expressions -- Ennis at Lightning Flat, for instance. Story good. Movie good. Both good. ;D)
a story about the damage that a homophobic society inflicts on people's souls. Beyond Ennis, there are other types of damage that society (and family) inflict(s) on people which is why I believe there was such a universal impact from the movie. It is a movie all about letting fear (in whatever form) lead to a life of regret.
answer Jack's "sometimes I miss you so much"was that he'd been worrying all week about how to break the news about November & that statement was just going to make it harder?
Here. I'll link to an essay I wrote after I read the story, but before I saw the movie. (I had read some early reviews of the movie, and I had watched the trailer. Ummm, repeatedly. ;D So I was already melding Heath Ledger's portrayal into my impressions from the story. Perhaps.) It's about lying to others and to oneself, and how Jack and Ennis both lie in some ways in the story. But it hints at how I viewed the story characters.
http://community.livejournal.com/wranglers/130591.html]=http://community.livejournal.com/wranglers/130591.html]http://community.livejournal.com/wranglers/130591.html (http://=http://community.livejournal.com/wranglers/130591.html)
-- but paradoxically more uptight about expressing them, due to his damaged childhood and internalized homophobia.
both, movie Ennis and story Ennis, are aware about their relationship with Jack (that it is love what they do have together), but movie Ennis is even less able to express it, let alone to live it out, than story Ennis is
how much is movie Ennis in denial for those 20 years?
This leads me to the question: how much is movie Ennis in denial for those 20 years? I've seen many posts on IMDB and here, where people stated that Ennis is completely in denial about their relationship ("this thing") for the whole time and some even think, Ennis starts changing not until after Jack's death.
I can't share this POV. I think, movie Ennis knows, but is even more scared than story Ennis. Katherine puts it this way and I can't express it in a better way, so I simply quote her:
Bottom line: I believe both, movie Ennis and story Ennis, are aware about their relationship with Jack (that it is love what they do have together), but movie Ennis is even less able to express it, let alone to live it out, than story Ennis is.
So, what I am trying to get to is, I believe movie Ennis also knew all along in his heart that Jack was the love of his life. Just took awhile for his mind to catch up. (Unfortunatley, our minds and our hearts are not always in the same place.)
Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held -- and thank god, Jack thought, that Ennis eventually got over that hangup!
First, I think it is a flaw to portray Story Ennis as unwilling to embrace Jack from the front. It doesn't make any sense given the reunion scene or what he says in the motel. Yes, the argument has been made that Ennis simply matured by then.Do you mean unwilling to embrace Jack from the front during the summer on Brokeback, or unwilling to embrace Jack from the front later?
I don't think that movie-Jack's nonchalance was a flaw. I think it's part of the internal contradictions that make up Jack's character. Yes, Jack is the one who we see being more open and vulnerable (especially in the 2nd tent scene), but there are also a lot of times when he hides how strongly he feels, as if he's afraid... of what will happen if he shows too much of his feelings? Of Ennis's "low startle point"? Of letting the world see what he feels in general? I don't know, but there are a number of times when Jack tries not to let on how he feels. After Ennis encounters the bear, when Jack starts by complaining about the beans rather than show how worried he was. After the first tent scene, when he seems to be hiding a lot of emotion beneath "see you for supper" and "it's nobody's business but ours" and "me neither." After the reunion, when Jack sounds so cautious mentioning the cow & calf operation, and then turns to a joke about how much Lureen's father hates him.
I guess it seems very much like Jack to hide his strong feelings behind jokes or nonchalance, just like it seems very Ennis-like to pull away and withdraw into himself (or to hit something).
Naky - I think your take on Jack in the scene as they prepare to leave Brokeback seems reasonable at the time it appears in the film, but in context with the dozy embrace just seemed false. Ennis had, based on the flashback, showed his love of Jack. Thus why did he have to be so careful in his words & actions at this point.That's a good point. And the punch, as well, was probably a turning point for Jack's caution. (Why did Jack wait four years to look up Ennis?) There isn't really anything between the 2nd tent scene and the punch that shows that Ennis had a low startle point; during the most stressful scene, when the sheep are all mixed, Ennis goes into his stable-and-responsible mode, and the rest of the time we see him he's affectionate with Jack.
How about this one: During the scene where Alma meets Jack, there’s a loaf of Wonder bread (in its opaque wrapper) behind her. Each person in that room is wondering--and hiding--something.
When Alma confronts Ennis at Thanksgiving, there’s a loaf of bread behind her. This one is in a clear wrapper--what was previously concealed (by both of them) is now exposed
Back to the subject of possible flaws, I beg very respectfully to differ on the notion that Jack's behavior when he told Ennis Aguirre had come back to say "bring 'em down" was out of character. I think it was completely in character. Jack was an eternal optimist - as some have said, he just figured he'd see Ennis again. To me, it didn't occur to him that he wouldn't until he watched him in his side-view mirror as he drove away.
I actually think that had Jack gone off about Aguirre, having to leave early, and all of it up on the mountain, that would have been terribly out of character for him. But maybe that's just me?
The best way I can think of to fit this behavior into his character is that he knows why Ennis is upset (he looks like he might, when he gazes out at Ennis sulking just before heading over to lassoo him) but, again always leery of that startle point, he wants to be tactful and avoid addressing it directly.
I daresay you've hit the nail on the head with that one. This here Jackologist couldn't put it any better. The only thing I'll add is that imagine if Ennis hadn't sucker-punched him when he went to administer to his wounds. Imagine if Ennis had *let* him. I think we'd see a whole other facet of Jack's real feelings about the impending separation then.
How about this one: During the scene where Alma meets Jack, there’s a loaf of Wonder bread (in its opaque wrapper) behind her. Each person in that room is wondering--and hiding--something.
When Alma confronts Ennis at Thanksgiving, there’s a loaf of bread behind her. This one is in a clear wrapper--what was previously concealed (by both of them) is now exposed
The only thing I'll add is that imagine if Ennis hadn't sucker-punched him when he went to administer to his wounds. Imagine if Ennis had *let* him. I think we'd see a whole other facet of Jack's real feelings about the impending separation then.
Ok, kidding aside -- that's the tragedy of the whole relationship, isn't it? I think that Jack's apparent insensitivity is entirely within character (while respectfully disagreeing with Katherine on the subject ;D - but can I tease you about it, like it's a harmonica or something?) -- but so is Ennis's reaction. I mean, I can't imagine Jack coming out and saying "Hey, Ennis, I can tell that you're really upset about this. Let's talk about it." And I can't imagine Ennis saying "Thanks for wiping the blood off my nose. I was just so upset about leaving you, you know?" They're both who they are, perfect for each other and yet doomed by some combination of outside forces and their own personalities.
That line seems out of character for him because he usually knows what to do in “practical” situations (chasing after the mules, shooting the elk).
my always put-upon and overly-maligned Jack,
Let me clarify my previous post. All I meant is that, as I've stated on previous threads, I think one of the things Jack finds attractive in Ennis is that Ennis is graceful at things that Jack is a bit bumbling with. Ennis catches the watch while Jack drops the keys. Ennis hits the coyote, Jack misses. Stuff like that. Of course Jack is a very skilled sheep herder, outdoorsman and cigarette lighter. He's an OK singer and bull-rider. And he's a far better conversationalist and dancer than Ennis (the former being one reason Ennis is attracted to Jack).
I guess I just see Jack as being woefully under-appreciated by all of society
Well, it's a lot to expect for all of society to appreciate him as much as you do! ;) :-*
In any case, I see Lureen differently from you. I think she loves him and does the best she can for him -- except in the pissant scene, which, now that you mention it I've never really understood.
You know, today I've been bouncing between this thread and some of the Jack/Ennis Jake/Heath polls. I have always been convinced that one's preference of cowboy really shapes the way one interprets and responds to the movie. Anybody else agree with this?
I love this thread, because there's no real topic to go on or off of. Or is there? Come to think of it, I can't even remember what the original 9th viewing observation was (and I think I'm on my 12th).
I actually am in the camp that thinks Lureen loved Jack. ... But the fact that she suggests that he go to Lightning Flat is *huge*, especially considering that in the short story we learn that Jack never once took her up there to meet them. The unselfishness of that gesture is astonishing, and to me it has to be borne from love.
I’ve read on other boards that Jack’s was an unrequited love; I respectfully disagree.
Anne Hathaway has all but said this. She didn't know until the phone call that Ennis was the love of his life, but she knew there were others and that they weren't women. But the fact that she suggests that he go to Lightning Flat is *huge*, especially considering that in the short story we learn that Jack never once took her up there to meet them. The unselfishness of that gesture is astonishing, and to me it has to be borne from love.
But Ennis didn't give him what he needed, I hope you will agree with me on that. Jack had to go to Mexico, felt he was being kept on a short leash, and said he couldn't get by on a coupla high-altitude f/y
In addition to that, Ennis only responded in the way Jack yearned for once after they left Brokeback Mountain. And that was after a four-year absence.
And one more thing...Jack had to be satisfied with Ennis embracing him from the back because he was too homophobic to hug him face-to-face!! Not what Jack deserved.
Where is Jack coming from when he arrives at Aguirre’s in 1964, the year after Brokeback?
Ennis arrives at Aguirre’s at the beginning of the movie: Facing the trailer, Ennis walks in from screen left on that long road.
Jack arrives at Aguirre’s: Looking outward from the trailer, he drives in from screen right--from the same direction as Ennis. (He makes a left turn onto a side street, then a right turn onto the gravel.)
Aguirre arrives: He pulls in from the opposite direction. Looking outward from the trailer, he drives in from screen left, making a right turn onto the gravel.
Jack drives away after Brokeback: He makes a right turn onto the main road, driving off toward the direction from which he arrived. When he looks in his rearview mirror, you can see the end of the road behind Ennis.
When Jack arrives at Aguirre’s the following summer, he pulls in from the same direction as Aguirre: Facing the trailer, he drives up from screen right. (He makes a right turn from a side street onto the main road, then a right turn onto the gravel.) You can see the end of the road at the right of the screen.
So...where is Jack coming from?
I’m going to refer to the direction from which Ennis and Jack arrive in 1963 as “the long end” of the road, and the direction from which Aguirre arrives in 1963 (and Jack in 1964) as “the short end” (because you can see the end of the road). It makes more sense to me that “the long end” is the direction from which out-of-towners arrive, while “the short end” is the direction from which locals arrive.
I don’t understand how Jack’s arriving from “the short end” indicates that he’s coming from Texas. It does seem to be much later in the day because Aguirre is already in the office, so maybe, as ednbarby said, Jack is coming from the bar after having a few.
I’ve seen several posts where people say that Ennis broke up with Cassie, but I never got that impression. Tell me if I missed something.
Cassie: “I left word for you with Steve...and you musta got those notes I left at your place.”
Ennis (glancing at Carl): “Looks like I got the message in any case.”
Cassie was trying to get in touch with Ennis, but if they had already broken up, then why?
I think the confusing "I got the message" line is a little bit of Ennis's characteristic style of arguing.
ednbarby once said she feels compelled to defend her “always put-upon and overly-maligned Jack”; I feel the same about Ennis. People sometimes say they “hate Ennis for what he did to Jack.”
I don’t share all of Ennis’s problems, but I am familiar with childhood trauma, being hobbled by fear, and having difficulty overcoming ideas you were raised with. In working to understand Ennis, I’m processing my own stuff. At the end of the day, I don’t want to be either Ennis or Jack, one afraid to take a chance, the other standing an unsatisfactory situation.
At the end of the day, I don’t want to be either Ennis or Jack, one afraid to take a chance, the other standing an unsatisfactory situation.
. It really is purely Ennis's decision to live separately for all those years (this has nothing to do with Jack's own, personal motivation). IAlthought it may have he mostly Ennis's choice, he was guided not only by his fears, which likely were the cause of Jack's death, but also obligations to not only his chilldren but Jacks son as well. it a way he was trying to save Jack as well as himself.
Althought it may have he mostly Ennis's choice, he was guided not only by his fears, which likely were the cause of Jack's death, but also obligations to not only his chilldren but Jacks son as well. it a way he was trying to save jack as wellas himself.
Well, I honestly don't think Ennis was doing his kids any real favors in the way he was living. He hardly saw them anyway and he refused to live with Alma Jr. even when she asked him if she could. I still think he was using his kids as an excuse and that his deep-seated fears were the main cause of his decision not to live with Jack. And, well, Jack's decisions about Bobby I think would only become Ennis's concern if he truly decided to become Jack's partner fulltime. At which point, Jack might have more stake in expressing opinions about Ennis and his girls too.Yeah the one area I would fault Ennis, even though he is the best dad in the film next to Jack, he could have tried harder making the best of things with Alma, going to the church social, generally be more supportive. She might have even stayed married to him (she did love him and did stay for 8 years after she knew about Jack). Also he sould have never brought Cassie with on his visit with Alma jr, and made it possable so she could live with him. But movie characters all have their faults.
.
Well, I honestly don't think Ennis was doing his kids any real favors in the way he was living. He hardly saw them anyway and he refused to live with Alma Jr. even when she asked him if she could.
Amanda, are U really Ennis...or really Annie Proulx in disguise????
Ennis himself would no doubt agree, at the end, that he blew it.I don't know that Ennis felt he did blow it given that he felt the tire iron got Jack. He always treasured and was protective of they had, hence the out of the way trips. Sadly truth was and is that they would of had to always be aware of what was going on around them had they ranched up together, Ennis fears unfortunatelly were not unfounded. Matthew Sheppard was murdered in Larmie in 1997 one year after Brokeback was published.
Katherine, you know I agree that the all those things you listed in your post are way too harsh and judgmental. I'll help you and Front Ranger with the teeth thing over the idea that Ennis was being sexist in the runny nose scene.
I don't know that Enniis felt he did blow it given that he felt the tire iron got Jack.
Cassie leaves a bunch of notes, trying to get ahold of him and wondering what had happened to their relationship. Ennis meanwhile has decided on his own to break up with her, but instead of telling her he just cruelly ignores the notes.
Well I swore I wasn't gonna get into this again, but oh well, here goes, this thread is touching on things that I have been mulling over this week...It would have been the right thing for Ennis or anyone to leave his young family for another? NOT!!!!!!!THAT is selfish!!!!
Refusing the sweet life with Jack. He refused it when the girls were babies, he refused it after the divorce,
I am not lessening the horror of Ennis seeing at age 9 the tortured mutilated corpse of Earl, but Ennis is letting that horror rule and ruin his whole life! Yes it was horrible, unspeakable, criminal. It also is far removed (timewise) and unrelated to Ennis' present life, present circumstance. It has nothing to do with the place he lives now, nothing to do with any of the important people in Ennis's life now. Thirty-one years ago a crime was committed. Ok. Move on already!
I think you have to keep in mind is that the Earl incident is not something that Ennis experienced for five minutes, three decades ago.
He was nine. He was gay. Which he probably already sensed, at some level. So for the next however many years until his dad died, he lived in the same house with a parent whom he may have loved and was taught to respect and yet whom he presumed fully capable of torturing someone to death for being the same way that he, Ennis, knew himself to be. His dad was implicitly saying, "This is what will happen to you, boy, if you ever have sex with a man." And Ennis knew his dad wasn't the only one who felt that way. In fact, gradually he came to believe everyone felt that way. Yet, he also knew he was attracted to men. So he learned to repress and hide it. Years of repression and hiding in childhood and adolescence aren't, IMO, something from which you "move on, already," all that easily.
Then his dad died. As Mikaela has pointed out, if Ennis would have ever have been able to reject those teachings and realize his dad was full of shit, his death made it that much harder-- you're supposed to grant even MORE respect for the dead.
Ok, Ennis knew what his father believed. But just because you know that a parent has this or that strong belief, does it become your strong value? no, not necessarily. Kids reject their parents' values all the time.
So Ennis finds himself doing and enjoying that very thing that his dead father hated so much, having sex with a man! Good grief, Ennis *does* have pleasure when he is with Jack, he goes to Jack with a smile on his face, he lives for his time with Jack, so why is it so difficult for him to say to himself, "yeah my old man, he was a sumbitch, dead for 20 years now, he sure didn't care for queers, but shee-yt this here is what I like, this man is the one I wanna be with, and be naked with, shee-yt, I guess my old man was wrong!"
Anyway, I can't think of a better way to explain this, except to say that many people have experienced horrific tragediies in their lives equal to and greater than what Ennis did, and they do not let themselves be paralyzed with fear the way Ennis does.
The reason I am saying it has nothing to do with Ennis' present surroundings, is, Earl's murder is the only queer murder that we are told about, as being something that Ennis has heard about from around Wyoming. Hell, what are the odds anyway, of it happening again? Are the odds so stong that it makes sense to live like Ennis did, not liive the one life you have to the fullest?
A 9 year old has no inkling of what "gay" is
all Ennis thinks of is "how will this personally affect me?"
I think Jack is genuinely sweet and who knows if he's a good judge of character... but he found something hugely special about Ennis. Maybe this is a new way to think about Ennis. Of course, this question can be reversed for those of you who love Ennis and dislike Jack.
???
OK, you are way more eloquent than I, but I will respond anyway. Everything you said is true. but just because his father believed and tried to make Ennis believe that homosexuality is BAD, etc etc. and yes his father probably did have a big influence on Ennis for the first 12 or 14 years of his life, the fact is, his father is long gone now. I don't believe that the misguided hateful beliefs of the father are necessarily hopelessly branded into the mind and soul of the son, even less so if the father disappears at such a early stage of his life.
Ok, Ennis knew what his father believed. But just because you know that a parent has this or that strong belief, does it become your strong value? no, not necessarily. Kids reject their parents' values all the time. So Ennis finds himself doing and enjoying that very thing that his dead father hated so much, having sex with a man! Good grief, Ennis *does* have pleasure when he is with Jack, he goes to Jack with a smile on his face, he lives for his time with Jack, so why is it so difficult for him to say to himself, "yeah my old man, he was a sumbitch, dead for 20 years now, he sure didn't care for queers, but shee-yt this here is what I like, this man is the one I wanna be with, and be naked with, shee-yt, I guess my old man was wrong!"
Anyway, I can't think of a better way to explain this, except to say that many people have experienced horrific tragediies in their lives equal to and greater than what Ennis did, and they do not let themselves be paralyzed with fear the way Ennis does.
The reason I am saying it has nothing to do with Ennis' present surroundings, is, Earl's murder is the only queer murder that we are told about, as being something that Ennis has heard about from around Wyoming. Hell, what are the odds anyway, of it happening again? Are the odds so stong that it makes sense to live like Ennis did, not liive the one life you have to the fullest?
Jane
When I wrote in shorthand “get over it” I did not mean to say that Ennis should be able to dismiss his feelings about the Earl tragedy. We all have feelings and hurts that we hold in our soul, that stay with us all our lives. I know that. I meant “get over it and *live*, man, don’t let Earl’s murder cause you to roll up like a caterpillar for the rest of your f’n life!”
I guess that was only implied...
J
I want better and different for my children. Sometimes I do not think I do that good of a job. It is not because I do not want to. It is just hard to get over some things. If you have never lived through something like that it is really hard to understand. Ennis I think wanted better for his children. When he ask Jr. if Kurt loves her. I think then he realizes that if you have someone who truly loves you then you have to be with them. Regrets of course. Selfish no.
I wonder how many viewings the original poster of this thread has had now??
Yes, Barbara. Once for each of us who says "yes"...Doug
Yeah, so what in the hell ever did happen to poor ol' Randall? Didn't this thread start out being about Randall....
??? ;)
In a manner of speaking, yes, it did. What ever did happen to Randall? And just how serious was Jack about him, anyway? My take is that it was never more serious for Jack than just sex, but did Randall want more? We can only conjecture. But hell, who wouldn't?I'm in the camp that Randall was never more than an option for Jack. Jack does not respond ouside the dance hall, just wishes he weer Ennis.
In a manner of speaking, yes, it did. What ever did happen to Randall? And just how serious was Jack about him, anyway? My take is that it was never more serious for Jack than just sex, but did Randall want more? We can only conjecture. But hell, who wouldn't?
I've wondered whether Jack's comments about bringing somebody to the ranch (both in Ennis's and Randall's cases) were spontaneous responses to Old Man Twist's complaints about Jack being away, not having any help, yadda yadda nag nag. (After all, Jack didn't have serious plans about bringing Ennis to the ranch, either. Ennis had already essentially said no.) And so... spontaneous, child mouthing off to parent, partly serious, but partly just an attempt to get dad to shut up already.
But I agree - it was just him thinking out loud - wanting to shut his father - and his own heart - up once and for all.
And during one of their many arguments, OMT says something like, "Whatever happened to the Great and Powerful Ennis del Mar - the one who was gonna help you 'lick this ranch into shape?' Just another one o' yer half-baked ideas, I guess." And Jack retorts with something more to himself than to his father, like "Yeah, well, the hell with him. I know another guy - a ranch neighbor of mine in Childress - who *wants* to come up here and do that with me. This Spring, I may just take him up on it."
But I agree - it was just him thinking out loud - wanting to shut his father - and his own heart - up once and for all.
(After all, Jack didn't have serious plans about bringing Ennis to the ranch, either. Ennis had already essentially said no.)
That would be my hope, but who knows? Certainly Jack was frustrated. But, like many of you, I see Randall as a hard dick to help satisfy Jack’s sexual needs. That sounds a bit harsh … they may have been companions. But Randall was no Ennis. Whether or not Jack was going to break off his relationship with Ennis has been the topic of other threads and has provoked much discussion. However, no matter where you may fall on that issue (i.e. would Jack “quit” Ennis) … I think we can all be in agreement that Randall would not even come close to filling Jack’s emotional needs. Only Ennis could do that.
And let's not forget, maybe to Randall, Jack was just a hard dick to help satisfy his (Randall's) sexual needs.
True ... very true! Certainly that is one angle that I have never considered!
We know that Randall has a wife who talks a blue streak, and a management job on Roy Taylor's ranch, and that he wants sex from Jack (at least he has good taste in men ;D ). And that's about it. Given the little we do know, I think it's possible he has incentive to stay in the closet, not upend his life by ranching up with Jack, and may be interested, as I've put it elsewhere, in just a couple of lakeside fucks once or twice a year.
I remember reading somewhere else on this board that it seems incongruous that Randall would even be willing to move with Jack to Lightning Flat. Why? He is educated, well situated financially and is certainly “mechanically challenged.” I am not sure what would incentivize Randall to give all of that up for Jack. On the flip side … I can’t see Jack giving up everything to move in with Randall. As long as his sexual needs are being met, why would he bother?
Along these lines, here's how I see it: After their last time together at the lake, Jack goes up to Lightning Flat, just aching inside, not unlike that time he went up there after the summer on Brokeback. But now he's aching and broken. He hears the usual shit from Old Man Twist. And during one of their many arguments, OMT says something like, "Whatever happened to the Great and Powerful Ennis del Mar - the one who was gonna help you 'lick this ranch into shape?' Just another one o' yer half-baked ideas, I guess." And Jack retorts with something more to himself than to his father, like "Yeah, well, the hell with him. I know another guy - a ranch neighbor of mine in Childress - who *wants* to come up here and do that with me. This Spring, I may just take him up on it."
But I agree - it was just him thinking out loud - wanting to shut his father - and his own heart - up once and for all.
They part and the look on Jack’s face as Ennis drives away says a thousand things. Most notably, to me, the look says “Goddamn you Ennis. If it was up to me we could have had it. But it wasn’t just up to me. And you couldn’t “stand” it. So I’ll give you what you say you want (even though he really doesn’t), that which I know you really need – I’ll let you be.” Jack knows he is saying good-bye to Ennis for the last time here. And not for himself, but for his love. This is the greatest sacrifice shown in the film.
Jack has just seen his lover crumple up into a ball of unmanageable emotions, fears, conflicts, and inner struggles. And Jack knows that Ennis can neither fix it nor stand it. The destructive effects of rural homophobia (the theme of the film) have taken their ultimate toll on Ennis. Jack has only two realistic options: Let Ennis go or hold him captive. It is because of Jack’s love for Ennis that he lets him go. Otherwise, Jack never loved Ennis at all because his other option is to say: “Damn! I just saw my lover crumple into a ball of despair. Oh, well, I can still get a few high-altitude fucks out of him every year.” Because neither of them can fix it and because Ennis cannot stand it, Jack must quit Ennis.
Jack goes back to Texas. At some point he takes up with Randall. So much so that after twenty years of telling his folks “me and Ennis,” he now tells them “me and this other guy.” And Jack does this before Ennis’ postcard about Pine Creek in November.
I remember reading somewhere else on this board that it seems incongruous that Randall would even be willing to move with Jack to Lightning Flat. Why? He is educated, well situated financially and is certainly “mechanically challenged.” I am not sure what would incentivize Randall to give all of that up for Jack. On the flip side … I can’t see Jack giving up everything to move in with Randall. As long as his sexual needs are being met, why would he bother?
In any case, I think we're supposed to be left somewhat in the dark about this, the way Ennis is, always left wondering. OMT's mention of the other fella to Ennis is fate (i.e., Annie Proulx) twisting the knife, making things that much more torturous for Ennis, and us. It's harder in the story than in the movie, because in the movie, at least 1) we've met Randall, know Jack has known him for a while, saw Jack's deer-in-the-headlights look when Randall mentioned the fishing cabin (for all Ennis knows, the other fella is someone Jack met and fell in love with AFTER seeing Ennis the last time -- at least we have reason to think otherwise), and 2) saw what a big deal it was for Jack to say "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." In the story, it's a more casual paraphrase, not a direct quote, and somehow "I could whip babies" doesn't have quite the same gravity as "I can hardly stand it."
Jane, your post just came in. I've never agreed with the "Jack quit Ennis" theory, and these reasons why neither Randall nor Jack necessarily would have wanted to live together only give my disagreement a tiny bit more support.
You are so right. The whole idea of the “other ranch fella” is another ambiguity in this film. We can only speculate the reality of the situation. Jack’s vulnerability at the lake scene says a lot about his state of mind. No matter what Jack may have been doing …. going to Mexico, having sex with Randall or someone else … it could not meet Jack’s emotional needs. Only Ennis could do that. In TS3, we see Ennis holding Jack … reminiscent of the time on BBM when Ennis embraces Jack and hums a lullaby. It is one of those times when we get a glimpse into their love for each other …. in a non-physical intimate way.I don't think Jack coud ever 'quit Ennis. As pointed out in another post in LF when Jacks mother place her hand on Ennis's shoulder telling him 'don't worry you were the love of Jack's life, not....
As for Jack “quitting” Ennis … I have never been able to agree with that argument, either. There have been compelling arguments to support that theory … I just don’t buy them (totally).
He's got a good-looking wife who's so ditzy, dumb and self-absorbed she'd probably not notice what Randall gets up to on the side if it hit her in the face.
But then I've never really been able to buy that Randall would have been willing - or would have lasted *if* he was willing - to move up to LF. I base the impression of Randall on very little, true - but I base it on about the same that Jack knew by the time Randall came on to him outside the Benefit Dance place:
He's got a good education, an OK job, has got some money (and a wife who knows how to spend them.) He is intellectual rather than "mechanical". He's very straight-forward in coming on to Jack - first at the table and then afterwards, - directly in front of both their wives, too, which IMO is telling us something. My impression is that the reason he's circumspect at all in what he's saying while theyr're sitting on the bench is that he's not entirely certain that Jack is interested - Jack is sending out pretty conflicted signals after all.
Mikaela, that is a very astute analysis of Randall! You're right, I bet he was more comfortable right where he was than he would have been living on that bleak ranch and working alongside OMT.
If only Ennis knew all that! The sad thing is, Ennis probably won't even make the connection between "the other fella" and the unserious fling (with the rancher's wife) that Jack alluded to on their last night at the lake -- right BEFORE telling Ennis how much he missed him. So whether Jack was serious about Randall or not, Ennis will always have to entertain the possibility that he was, or maybe even that Jack had fallen in love with someone else. Even the shirts don't necessarily negate that possibility.
Mikaela...Aggies is the nickname of Texas A & M (agriculture and mining), and from "agriculture" they came up with "Aggie" (much like "Brokies"). When you hear someone say "Aggie game", they are usually referring to football, but it could be basketball, baseball (assuming Texas A & M has either...some schools don't). But I digress. Did we hear Lashawn say the name of her school? Or do we assume she also went to A & M? I'll watch that scene again later today and report...Hope this helps your college knowledge a little (I swear, I did not plan that rhyme)...Doug
IIn Ennis's mind he was protecting Jack as well as himself. I have a friend who lived in Wy in the 1960's and it was not a safe place to be out. Ennis regrets that it was not possable to live with Jack not that he didn't. Matthew Shepard was murdered 14 years after Jack in the time line of the film.
I think that is one of the things that Ennis regrets the most … he could have had a good life with Jack. Yet, Ennis was unable to allow himself the freedom to love Jack publicly. The teachings of his father and societal homophobia were too inbred. Thus, Ennis was left with bitterness and despair. This was Ennis’ cross to bear.
Hey Doug ... LaShawn says she pledged "Tri Del" at SMU. I can surmise that Randall went to Texas A&M and she was there for an Aggie game. Why he even dated her is beyond my comprehension. Unless of course, as Mikaela pointed out, she was so "ditzy and self absorbed" he knew he could have sex with a man in the same room and she wouldn't even notice.
Additional note: I just looked up "SMU" which stands for Southern Methodist University located in Dallas. Guess that makes sense!
Another thought about Randall... you know, the character is just designed to make Jack miss Ennis. For instance: Randall's got this college education... in Animal Husbandry. Randall went to college to learn the kind of stuff that Ennis learned from experience, starting in his teens when he dropped out of high school. (And Jack meets Randall when Randall's car is broken down, and Randall couldn't fix it. Contrast that with the way Ennis helped get Jack's truck started, there at the end of the Brokeback summer.)
the character is just designed to make Jack miss Ennis.
(for all Ennis knows, the other fella is someone Jack met and fell in love with AFTER seeing Ennis the last time -- at least we have reason to think otherwise),
I have seen lots of posts inferring that this or that happened between the time of their last fishing trip and the time he told his parents about bringing up some other guy, but I believe that from what we've been shown/told that both trips were one and the same trip for Jack. In other words he had the long drive up to LF to mull over his life and what to do about it, cried about Ennis I'm sure, and was trying to work himself up to doing something to fix a goddamn bitch of an unsatisfactory situation.
Is there a flaw in this logic, people? Why do so many Brokies think that there was a time lapse between the two events?
It is certainly possible. Do we know the exact month that Jack and Ennis got together for the last time? Is it in the spring? I think that is what causes the disparity. The question becomes, did Jack mull this over on the way to LF? Or did he go back to TX and cogitate the events that took place at the lake? IMO, most of us Brokies don’t like the thought that Jack would immediately leave Ennis, go to LF and announce he was going to bring this “ranch neighbor” to help run the ranch. (Not to say it didn’t happen. It’s the timeline that causes the discomfort).
Ahh the timeline.... that project that I just never got around to yet. I know that there have been some really great timelines created, I just don't know where they are. But for me the timeline surrounding that period of time is:
- Spring 1983: Jack and Ennis have their last fishing trip off at least one week. Jack: "It's gonna snow tonight for sure."
- Their last day together: Jack leaves and drives to LF for a visit of a day or two.
- Sometime between Spring and August: (my guestimate): Jack dies. "Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack...." is what Annie Proulx wrote.
- End of September: (my guesstimate) Ennis sends his postcard to Jack about meeting up on November 7th.
- Early-mid October: (my guesstimate) the postcard is returned, stamped with that horrible word in red ink.
- _______________: Ennis' trip to LF to ask for the ashes. Since John Twist says "this spring" in his little rant, I am thinking that this still 1983.
Is this timeline accurate people?
QuoteQuote from: latjoreme on Today at 09:16:16 am
(for all Ennis knows, the other fella is someone Jack met and fell in love with AFTER seeing Ennis the last time -- at least we have reason to think otherwise),
Jack went up to LF immediately following his last trip with Ennis. In fact he told Ennis at the truck that he was gonna head up to LF for a day or two.
I have always assumed that when Jack's father told Ennis " then this spring he says he's gonna bring another fella up here to whup this ranch into shape, blah blah blah" - well I have always thought that Jack said this on that self-same visit to LF, the day after leaving Ennis for the last time. Doesn't Ennis also think the same thing, that it was the very next day?
Ahh the timeline.... that project that I just never got around to yet. I know that there have been some really great timelines created, I just don't know where they are. But for me the timeline surrounding that period of time is:
- Spring 1983: Jack and Ennis have their last fishing trip off at least one week. Jack: "It's gonna snow tonight for sure."
- Their last day together: Jack leaves and drives to LF for a visit of a day or two.
- Sometime between Spring and August: (my guestimate): Jack dies. "Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack...." is what Annie Proulx wrote.
- End of September: (my guesstimate) Ennis sends his postcard to Jack about meeting up on November 7th.
- Early-mid October: (my guesstimate) the postcard is returned, stamped with that horrible word in red ink.
- _______________: Ennis' trip to LF to ask for the ashes. Since John Twist says "this spring" in his little rant, I am thinking that this still 1983.
Is this timeline accurate people?
I hadn't realized that some folks are uncomfortable thinking Jack would talk about the ranch neighbor so soon after the confrontation. It has never troubled me because I think it fits the mood of depression and bitterness I would expect Jack would be in at that time. And I'm feeling now that the comment about the ranch neighbor is really Jack's bitterness and unhappiness talking. I'm doubting now that he would have really gone back to Texas and "proposed" to Randall the way he "proposed" to Ennis in '67.
Another thought about Randall... you know, the character is just designed to make Jack miss Ennis. For instance: Randall's got this college education... in Animal Husbandry. Randall went to college to learn the kind of stuff that Ennis learned from experience, starting in his teens when he dropped out of high school. (And Jack meets Randall when Randall's car is broken down, and Randall couldn't fix it. Contrast that with the way Ennis helped get Jack's truck started, there at the end of the Brokeback summer.)
You might get an argument about the sequence for the film, however, because the screenplay dates the final confrontation in 1981 and Ennis's receipt of his postcard stamped "deceased" in 1982.
The difference in chronology is reflected in Jack's dialogue. Annie has Jack say, "Count the damn few times we been together in twenty years." The screenplay has Jack say, "Count the damn few times we been together in nearly twenty years." (I added the italics to point up the difference.)
As far as it goes, I think someone has already mentioned, we don't ever actually see Jack suggesting to Ennis in so many words that they ranch up together on the Twist spread in Lightning Flat. We only see Jack propose that they set up their own little cow and calf operation. For all we really see in either story or film, Jack was ruminating about bringing Ennis to Lightning Flat to his father and mother for years but never said a word to Ennis.
The dates in the screenplay are all screwed up, so I just ignore them all.
because the screenplay dates the final confrontation in 1981 and Ennis's receipt of his postcard stamped "deceased" in 1982.
(The dates in the screenplay are all screwed up, so I just ignore them all.
when Jack was feeling especially mushy towards Ennis, too.
About screwed up dates:Not only that but Jack drives to the campout in his 1977 Ford truck.
The ultimate example, for me, is the blue parka scene. At the beginning of the scene, the screenplay states that it is 1969. Then, three lines later, it says that Lureen is sitting in front of a calendar dated 1973.
Lureen may be on top of things, but I've never known anyone to put up a calendar four years early. ;D
Actually, I kind of like it that way... I like the feeling of drifting along without obvious "here we are in 1975!" kinds of references.
And what more do we need for that than the sideburns? :laugh:
Whenever the sideburns appear, I think of that line from the famous "cowboy etiquette" thread that was something like, "If unable to grow sideburns, simply apply Brillo pad to side of face."
Brillo pads?!?!?!?!?!
*hugs sideburns*
Actually 1973-1977 are almost the same, but the grilles are different. Interestingly Jacks red truck was a 1965-6 Ford and the later one Ennis had was a 1966 Ford, almost indentical except again the grille.
(And jpwagoneer -- is that 1977 truck the one that people keep mentioning as being an error? I am really, really bad at dating vehicles.)
From Doug
Mikaela...Aggies is the nickname of Texas A & M (agriculture and mining), and from "agriculture" they came up with "Aggie" (much like "Brokies"). When you hear someone say "Aggie game", they are usually referring to football....
From Jane
Jack went up to LF immediately following his last trip with Ennis. In fact he told Ennis at the truck that he was gonna head up to LF for a day or two.
I have always assumed that when Jack's father told Ennis " then this spring he says he's gonna bring another fella up here to whup this ranch into shape, blah blah blah" - well I have always thought that Jack said this on that self-same visit to LF, the day after leaving Ennis for the last time.
From Diane
And I'm feeling now that the comment about the ranch neighbor is really Jack's bitterness and unhappiness talking. I'm doubting now that he would have really gone back to Texas and "proposed" to Randall the way he "proposed" to Ennis in '67.
From Diane
As far as it goes, I think someone has already mentioned, we don't ever actually see Jack suggesting to Ennis in so many words that they ranch up together on the Twist spread in Lightning Flat. [ ]For all we really see in either story or film, Jack was ruminating about bringing Ennis to Lightning Flat to his father and mother for years but never said a word to Ennis.
dly64 and nakymaton...good job researching the SMU and their football schedule this fall. I'm guessing nakymaton is a football fan, but dly64 not so much? I was unable to get back to this subject soon, but I did manage to watch the scene again and heard her say it.
So if Jack's plan to move with Randall to LF was empty talk triggered by his frustration with Ennis, and if he probably wouldn't have really wanted to live with Randall, and if Randall probably wouldn't want to do it anyway ... then I would say Jack wouldn't have quit Ennis.
Meanwhile, Ennis was shaken by the argument with Jack, he told Jack he couldn't stand it no more (suggesting that he has to fix it), he went home and broke up with Cassie, his encounter with her in the bus station made him think about his relationship in a new way, he looked perky when getting the mail because he was looking forward to a change ... then I would say he planned to move their relationship up to a new level.
So voila! Happy ending.
Oh, except for one thing ... :'( :'( :'(
Am I sensing a bit of sarcasm? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Well, maybe a bit of sarcasm, but mixed with a LOT of sincere hopefulness. I genuinely do cling to the belief that Jack didn't quit Ennis and Ennis was planning to change, because I like to interpret the movie in the least sad way possible. Unfortunately, that only goes so far. :-\Me too. After both of the grils wer grown Ennis would have at least made more time for Jack, his lasts years of child support and all made it less.
So if Jack's plan to move with Randall to LF was empty talk triggered by his frustration with Ennis, and if he probably wouldn't have really wanted to live with Randall, and if Randall probably wouldn't want to do it anyway ... then I would say Jack wouldn't have quit Ennis.
Meanwhile, Ennis was shaken by the argument with Jack, he told Jack he couldn't stand it no more (suggesting that he has to fix it), he went home and broke up with Cassie, his encounter with her in the bus station made him think about his relationship in a new way, he looked perky when getting the mail because he was looking forward to a change ... then I would say he planned to move their relationship up to a new level.
So voila! Happy ending.
Oh, except for one thing ... :'( :'( :'(
Well, maybe a bit of sarcasm, but mixed with a LOT of sincere hopefulness. I genuinely do cling to the belief that Jack didn't quit Ennis and Ennis was planning to change, because I like to interpret the movie in the least sad way possible. Unfortunately, that only goes so far. :-\
So if Jack's plan to move with Randall to LF was empty talk triggered by his frustration with Ennis, and if he probably wouldn't have really wanted to live with Randall, and if Randall probably wouldn't want to do it anyway ... then I would say Jack wouldn't have quit Ennis.
Well, maybe a bit of sarcasm, but mixed with a LOT of sincere hopefulness. I genuinely do cling to the belief that Jack didn't quit Ennis and Ennis was planning to change, because I like to interpret the movie in the least sad way possible. Unfortunately, that only goes so far. :-\
.I don't think Jack would or could quit Ennis. He was just frustrated that they may not ever have a life together. it was that Ennis could not meet in Aug that strated the argument, not about ranching up.
I think he would, or could, still have quit Ennis even so. Because his reason for quitting IMO mainly is love and concern for Ennis (and himself); - their relationship is "killing them" - their spirit, their love, their lives if not their excistence. Jack's wish to be with someone else would be entirely secondary to a perceived need to set Ennis free for Ennis's own sake. If so, whether or not he could be certain that Randall was willing to commit to anything more than what they previously had would not be an important deciding factor for Jack. And Jack could in this scenario still go on about the ranch neighbour to his parents immediately after having seen Ennis, to convince himself he could manage the quitting. :( :-\
I am close to agreeing that *Ennis* was ready to try to change - that the scene in the cafe shows some sort of epiphany.... Less certain about his ability to change. And we would have known, if not for........ :'(
...the question of whether or not Jack would quit Ennis, (I think of it as try to quit Ennis) does not hinge on whether or not he could lure Randall to LF. I don’t think Jack necessarily even wants to live at LF, but it will be his inheritance eventually, I expect. And he would go there if it was something that would suit Ennis. I do believe Jack was going to try and quit Ennis, but he was doing this, the hardest thing he ever would have to do, for Ennis’ and his own emotional wellbeing, not because he could snag another guy.
Concerning whether or not J&E ever discussed a life together after the "cow and calf operation" talk, I've been wondering about what, if anything, was said when they met a month after the disastrous post-divorce scene. Would they both have pretended that nothing happened? Would they have just let be, let be without comment? Would they have talked through what happened, - at all? At least touched upon Jack's hopes and Ennis's fears? Would Ennis pretend that he thought Jack'd come up to be with him for a weekend or so, which was impossible because of the girls? Well, "pretend" is not the right word here, I know, that's doing Ennis an injustice - it's more that Ennis uses his "the girls" mantra (and the "child support" one as well) when he doesn't really know what else to *say* - however deeply he feels - when he just can't find the words. So let me rephrase: If they talked about that post-divorce disaster at all, did Ennis continue to explain his behaviour with having to take care of the girls?
I think the post-divorce scene was a turning point for Jack. Before that, although we have no additional dialogue on the subject, Jack was hopeful that if Ennis divorced, they would have a life together. But Jack comes to the painful realization, after driving 14 hours to see Ennis only to be turned away, that it (the “sweet life” that Jack craved) would never happen. At that moment, Jack’s hopes and dreams died. IMO, neither one ever brought it up again …. none of it (the divorce fiasco, the hope for a life together, etc.) This is evidenced by the conversation at the lake scene. Jack asks Ennis, “after all this time, you ain’t find nobody else to marry?” Jack has resigned the fact that Ennis is too paranoid and homophobic to ever publicly acknowledge their relationship. I think Jack knew that Ennis used the girls as an excuse …. a way to put Jack off.
Very well expressed, Diane. I agree. (Although, with specific regard to the girls when Jack shows up unannounced and unexpectedly after Ennis's divorce, I've reluctantly felt that Ennis was right to put his children before his lover. It makes me hurt so much for both of them, Ennis and Jack. If only Jack had written first, before showing up unannounced. ... :'( )Your right, all three children should come first.
Very well expressed, Diane. I agree. (Although, with specific regard to the girls when Jack shows up unannounced and unexpectedly after Ennis's divorce, I've reluctantly felt that Ennis was right to put his children before his lover. It makes me hurt so much for both of them, Ennis and Jack. If only Jack had written first, before showing up unannounced. ... :'( )
Your right, all three children should come first.
Hmmmmm ... you guys are right. But, since I am single and a bit jaded, :-\ I often see Ennis as using his daughters as an excuse (i.e. to justify not living together vs. acknowledging his own homophobia and paranoia).
Well. ... I'm single and jaded too, ;D , and I'm not now nor have I ever been (nor will I ever be) a parent. But so often I think human motives or motivations can be very mixed, so I'm not willing to say that Ennis never uses the girls as an excuse or hides behind them, but I must say, I do believe he loves his girls, and we are talking about Wyoming 30 years ago. I'm sure he would have been terrified of losing them, or losing all contact with them, if word got around that he was "queer."Yes and I know he wanted Jack to be a good father to Bobby. Remember how glad, proud he was when Jack told him he had a son at the apartment?
I don't think Jack would or could quit Ennis. He was just frustrated that they may not ever have a life together.
I don't think the question of whether Jack was trying to quit Ennis hinges on whether he could snag another guy. The question of whether he could succeed, though... if Randall wasn't willing or able to give Jack what he needed, what would Jack do when faced by one of Ennis's postcards? ... It's another thing to ... hold one of those postcards, written in Ennis's handwriting, saying the usual things, and simply throw it away without answering.
As for Ennis, he finally realized the feelings that he had for Jack were “love.” ... I do think their relationship was going to head in a different direction …. But it was too late!
Nor do I think that Ennis had a change of intention since the argument. The words “I just can’t stand it no more” just burst out of him in response to Jack’s outburst, I don’t think Ennis had an epiphany and decided to change the course of his life. IMO. The lightbulb that presumably went off in his head when Cassie said the line to him about “girls don’t fall in love with fun” was in the movie but not in the story. I don’t really see that Ennis ever made a decision to change his conduct.
But so often I think human motives or motivations can be very mixed, so I'm not willing to say that Ennis never uses the girls as an excuse or hides behind them, but I must say, I do believe he loves his girls, and we are talking about Wyoming 30 years ago. I'm sure he would have been terrified of losing them, or losing all contact with them, if word got around that he was "queer."
In the post-divorce scene, I think the girls are a legitimate reason to turn Jack away. Still, he could have found some other way to reassure Jack, and didn't.This is a case in point. Word for word, Ennis is talking as if Jack has come up to spend the weekend with him, which can't be because of the girls. He doesn't address the real reason Jack is there, doesn't tell him to come back in two days' time so they can deal with it and try to sort themselves and their future out..... Of course he should prioritize his girls when he has the care of them that one weekend. But that's not the point in that scene IMO. The inability to acknowledge openly what's really at stake, and to arrange some way to deal with it, is.
From Diane
I think the post-divorce scene was a turning point for Jack. [ snip] At that moment, Jack’s hopes and dreams died. IMO, neither one ever brought it up again …. none of it (the divorce fiasco, the hope for a life together, etc.)
This is evidenced by the conversation at the lake scene. Jack asks Ennis, “after all this time, you ain’t find nobody else to marry?” Jack has resigned the fact that Ennis is too paranoid and homophobic to ever publicly acknowledge their relationship.
He could have said, Jack I love you and am thrilled that you are here. You can sleep on the couch. When I get the girls home we can talk about this.
Or even something like: "Door's unlocked. Nothing but beans in the cupboard, though." God, I would love to see Jack's face reacting to even that subtle of an acknowledgment.Ennis does start to say something"Jack..." and the Jack steps in with"I see you next month then" and leaves.
Quote from latjoreme:
I don't think the words "I can't stand it no more" were carelessly chosen (by the filmmakers, I mean) as just some random phrase for Ennis to blurt out in the heat of the moment. It's no coincidence, IMO, that these words precisely echo what has been Ennis slogan all along -- that if you can't fix it you gotta stand it -- as well as Jack's "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
Ennis does start to say something"Jack..." and the Jack steps in with"I see you next month then" and leaves.
Very good point! If Jack hadn't interrupted, I still doubt Ennis would have said anything about love or the couch or even the beans in the cupboard. But he might have said something that would soften the blow. Even if only, "Jack, I'm sorry, it's great to see you, and I'm really looking forward to our next rendezvous."If only jack came on a different day Ennis probally could have spent a day or so with him.
OK, so he might not use the word "rendezvous."
I don't think the words "I can't stand it no more" were carelessly chosen (by the filmmakers, I mean) as just some random phrase for Ennis to blurt out in the heat of the moment. It's no coincidence, IMO, that these words precisely echo what has been Ennis slogan all along -- that if you can't fix it you gotta stand it -- as well as Jack's "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
But if you can't stand it, what do you gotta do? Try to forget about it? No. The flip side of the slogan is, "If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it." So I think Ennis decides to fix it.
I don't think that Ennis is at all suprised that Jack is married, after all he himself is, and Ennsi feels the only option at least at that time of their lives to live the straight life. Ennis is proud that Jack has a son, and remind him to take care of his family, which to Jack credit he does.
I have another totally different comment to make about the issue of Ennis being concerned about Jack being a good father (and this idea relating back to Ennis's happiness when Jack tells him he has a baby during the reunion scene). I think Ennis's look of something like shock or surprise (mixed with a lot of happiness) is at least partially because Ennis is surprised at the idea of Jack being with a woman. Just surprised at Jack being a father period. This is not how Ennis thinks of Jack up until this point. I don't think it even occurred to Ennis that Jack would get married. I have no real evidence for this... just a hunch.
I don't think the words "I can't stand it no more" were carelessly chosen (by the filmmakers, I mean) as just some random phrase for Ennis to blurt out in the heat of the moment. It's no coincidence, IMO, that these words precisely echo what has been Ennis slogan all along -- that if you can't fix it you gotta stand it -- as well as Jack's "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
But if you can't stand it, what do you gotta do? Try to forget about it? No. The flip side of the slogan is, "If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it." So I think Ennis decides to fix it.
In the post-divorce scene, I think the girls are a legitimate reason to turn Jack away. Still, he could have found some other way to reassure Jack, and didn't.
But I do think that if Ennis moved in with Jack he would almost certainly lose contact with his daughters (or at the very least, he would be convinced that would happen). And though that wasn't the only reason he rejected the sweet life, it definitely would have been a factor.
I've never doubted that Ennis loves his daughters. I'm certain that he does. "Life's continuance" is important to Ennis, as AP points out. He cares about them deeply. In the "moving to Texas" quarrel he is genuinely worried about losing contact with his girls - he can't imagine doing that, so in the fantasy world they have to come along. But, still - in his dealings with Jack, several times Ennis uses his daughters / the child support as an objection, an impediment to Jack's wishes for a sweet life that he (Ennis) is able to verbalize, when the *real* or rather the *major* impediment(s) and emotions remain unvoiced.
This is a case in point. Word for word, Ennis is talking as if Jack has come up to spend the weekend with him, which can't be because of the girls. He doesn't address the real reason Jack is there, doesn't tell him to come back in two days' time so they can deal with it and try to sort themselves and their future out..... Of course he should prioritize his girls when he has the care of them that one weekend. But that's not the point in that scene IMO. The inability to acknowledge openly what's really at stake, and to arrange some way to deal with it, is.
Oh, yes. I know I posted previously somewhere that Jack's question about Ennis re-marrying is among the saddest lines in the movie to me - because I think it confirms that Jack has given up hoping, even. Saying that, he acknowledges that he realizes Ennis is going to go through life pretending to not be queer with all his might; - and so to that purpose Jack is genuinely surprised that Ennis hasn't done the obvious thing, then, and found a new wife to complete the "charade".
Ennis does start to say something"Jack..." and the Jack steps in with"I see you next month then" and leaves.
If only jack came on a different day Ennis probally could have spent a day or so with him.
I was thinking up in the mountians. Unfortunatally his fears were not unfounded.
Tell me more .... are you saying Ennis' fears were not unfounded because of .... what he saw as a child? How he thinks Jack died? Just curious.Because reality was and may still be that WY is not safe place to be out. I think Ennis felt they could never be safe from harm by having the sweet life and it was his way of protecting Jack as well as himself. I think he wished for that life as much as Jack but knew it could never be, but he still treasured what he had with Jack. Matthew Shepard was murdered 14 years after the time frame of the movie in Laramie, WY supposably the most liberal part of the state.
Because reality was and may still be that WY is not safe place to be out. I think Ennis felt they could never be safe from harm by having the sweet life and it was his way of protecting Jack as well as himself. I think he wished for that life as much as Jack but knew it could never be, but he still treasured what he had with Jack.
I agree with everything exept that Ennis wished for the "sweet life" as much as Jack. In the end, yes. But Ennis was homophobic himself. The idea of loving a man was something he could not ackowledge, let alone accept, until Jack was ultimately gone.I think on some level he did, or at least knew he loved Jack. Otherswise he would have left Brokeback After FNIT. Neither could say the words, but said so many other ways even in their anger.
I agree with everything exept that Ennis wished for the "sweet life" as much as Jack. In the end, yes. But Ennis was homophobic himself. The idea of loving a man was something he could not ackowledge, let alone accept, until Jack was ultimately gone.
Ennis likes to follow rules (when he can)... when he breaks the rules (almost any rule) it causes him anxiety ... or tries to break the rules only a little bit (i.e. killing an elk is breaking the rules a bit because it's poaching, but it's not as bad as killing a sheep).
We keep going back to this, but since it keeps coming up I always feel I have to throw in my 2 cents. I think Ennis did acknowlege and accept that he loved a man, even if he didn't use that word. He would have moved in with Jack in a Laramie heartbeat if nobody else were around.well said, I agree 100%
Look at how he behaved on Brokeback (after TS2). The fact that Jack was a man didn't stop him there, and essentially they WERE living together as a couple. And when the summer ended prematurely, Ennis wasn't sighing with relief that he could finally quit this lovin a man stuff. He was distraught.
For that matter, he accepted it in a different way during the years following the reunion. Otherwise, he wouldn't have gone to meet Jack in the middle of nowhere. He loved seeing Jack. Those trips were the highlight of his life. He just couldn't do it publicly.
So yeah, he was homophobic, but that wasn't what kept him from accepting Jack's offer. Nor was it purely fear of meeting the same fate as Earl. It was something a little more complicated. I think a lot of it was what Amanda said a ways back:
The rules said, don't live with a man. In fact, the rules said don't even love a man. So Ennis already WAS breaking that rule, which caused him stress. Living with Jack would have been a sheep -- way off limits. Never seeing Jack at all would have been beans. Meeting once in a while in the middle of nowhere was Ennis' elk.
So Ennis already WAS breaking that rule, which caused him stress. Living with Jack would have been a sheep -- way off limits. Never seeing Jack at all would have been beans. Meeting once in a while in the middle of nowhere was Ennis' elk.
We keep going back to this, but since it keeps coming up I always feel I have to throw in my 2 cents. I think Ennis did acknowlege and accept that he loved a man, even if he didn't use that word. He would have moved in with Jack in a Laramie heartbeat if nobody else were around.
Look at how he behaved on Brokeback (after TS2). The fact that Jack was a man didn't stop him there, and essentially they WERE living together as a couple. And when the summer ended prematurely, Ennis wasn't sighing with relief that he could finally quit this lovin a man stuff. He was distraught.
For that matter, he accepted it in a different way during the years following the reunion. Otherwise, he wouldn't have gone to meet Jack in the middle of nowhere. He loved seeing Jack. Those trips were the highlight of his life. He just couldn't do it publicly.
So yeah, he was homophobic, but that wasn't what kept him from accepting Jack's offer. Nor was it purely fear of meeting the same fate as Earl.
So yeah, he was homophobic, but that wasn't what kept him from accepting Jack's offer. Nor was it purely fear of meeting the same fate as Earl. It was something a little more complicated. I think a lot of it was what Amanda said a ways back:
The rules said, don't live with a man. In fact, the rules said don't even love a man. So Ennis already WAS breaking that rule, which caused him stress. Living with Jack would have been a sheep -- way off limits. Never seeing Jack at all would have been beans. Meeting once in a while in the middle of nowhere was Ennis' elk.
But, at the same time I do see Ennis fundamentally as a personality (without Jack even being an issue here) that craves or thrives a bit on a lot of alone-time. Jack is right when he notes that Ennis can make it on a couple of get togethers once or twice a year. Being alone isn't as draining for Ennis as it is for Jack.
LOL, I love that we can all read these sentences and actually, totally understand what they mean. It would be funny to go up to a random person on the pavement and just recite this to see if these phrases would make any sense whatsoever to a non-Brokie. I think we're all at a stage where we can take Brokie-isms to a very high, next level.
:D
. You can sleep on the couch. When I get the girls home we can talk about this. How could anyone have known that 2 men were in the house together. Why was he so scared. Other than the obvious.Jack understood well that Ennis did not wnt to have his time with his girls compromised, and Ennis knew he did.
Does he see himself as gay? … NO WAY! His love for Jack is an anomaly. He doesn’t understand it or why it happened. It just did. IMO, he struggles with that internally. How could he love a man when, in Ennis’ mind, loving a man is a bad thing? Ennis spends years trying to deal with this emotional tug-of-war. Ultimately, he breaks down into Jack’s arms because he can no longer pretend to be someone/ something that he isn’t.
When Ennis breaks down at the lake scene, it is not only because his two inner worlds - loving queer but living straight - collide (in fact, I think this is a minor issue at this point, see my answer to Diane), and not only because of the menace of loosing Jack terrifies him, but it's also or even mostly because he is just as drained as Jack is (I'm nothing, I'm nowhere). But for 20 years he was better in hiding it. When Jack says "Truth is, sometime I miss you so much..." the evening before, Ennis knows exactly what he means not only because he knows Jack so well, but because for him it's the same . Although Lee left out the sentence from the 2003 screenplay where Ennis says "I know the feeling", we can see it. Look at his face.
Ennis misses Jack just as much as vice versa and he longed for that sweet life just as much.
I beg to differ. I think in the end Ennis does know he's queer. He asks at a antecendent meetig (years before the lake scene) "Lureen. You and her. It's normal and all?", "And she don't ever suspect?" and "You ever get the feeling [...] someone looks at you, suspicious...like he knows..." This is very close to admitting they are queer.
We've come a long way with our obsession.
Once more, I agree. Hunderd percent.
{snip}
Ennis misses Jack just as much as vice versa and he longed for that sweet life just as much.
We keep going back to this, but since it keeps coming up I always feel I have to throw in my 2 cents. I think Ennis did acknowlege and accept that he loved a man, even if he didn't use that word. He would have moved in with Jack in a Laramie heartbeat if nobody else were around.
{snip}
So yeah, he was homophobic, but that wasn't what kept him from accepting Jack's offer. Nor was it purely fear of meeting the same fate as Earl. It was something a little more complicated. I think a lot of it was what Amanda said a ways back:Ennis likes to follow rules (when he can)... when he breaks the rules (almost any rule) it causes him anxiety or at the very least he complains about it... or tries to break the rules only a little bit (i.e. killing an elk is breaking the rules a bit because it's poaching, but it's not as bad as killing a sheep).
The rules said, don't live with a man. In fact, the rules said don't even love a man. So Ennis already WAS breaking that rule, which caused him stress. Living with Jack would have been a sheep -- way off limits. Never seeing Jack at all would have been beans. Meeting once in a while in the middle of nowhere was Ennis' elk.
The other part of the argument, that Jack has to quit to be kind to Ennis, I can't buy. If we all agree that at the end of the movie Ennis will be miserable without Jack, how can either we or Jack think that Ennis would be better off without Jack as long as it's the result of a breakup rather than death?
But I don't think meeting twice a year was enough for Ennis. I agree with Chrissi that the strain their arrangement is putting on him is one of the reasons for his lakeside breakdown. That's why he says he can't stand it no more. Part of it, as Chrissi said, is having to deal with the conflict between his two lives. But I think mainly what he's saying is a parallel to what Jack has just finished saying -- that twice a year isn't enough, that it's getting harder and harder, that it's worn him down over 20 years.
That sad fact is that WY was not and may still not be a safe place to be out. Ennis fears were not without reason. He did long for the sweet life with Jasck but he knew it wasnt possable.
I'm not sure that Ennis longed for the sweet life just as much as Jack, I did not see any evidence that he longed for it. On the contrary, by not doing whatever it takes to be able to meet up with Jack in August, that tells me that his longing to be with Jack is not as strong as his, uhmm, fear? Or if he did long for it he sure had a funny way of showing it, meeting up less instead of more.
I'm not sure that Ennis longed for the sweet life just as much as Jack, I did not see any evidence that he longed for it. On the contrary, by not doing whatever it takes to be able to meet up with Jack in August, that tells me that his longing to be with Jack is not as strong as his, uhmm, fear?
Again I would like to reiterate the following quote from the mouth of Ennis, to me this is Ennis knowing that he is queer, that is what the "know"ing is all about here, IMO:
- "You ever get the feelin', I don't know, when you're in town, and someone looks at you, suspicious...like he knows. and then you get out on the pavement, and everyone, lookin' at you, and maybe they all know too?"
I thought we all agreed that Ennis did not acknowlege that he loved a man, that was part of the problem?! That he did not realize that it was love until it was too late to do anything about it?!!
.... and didn't you guys come down all over me about the Earl situation, that it was that horrible incident that put fear in Ennis, that was responsible for Ennis' emotional paralysis for the rest of the time we know him? WTF? Am I crazy? ;)
I would like to suggest that this is cicular logic, IMO. One cannot compare bad outcomes to the outcome of death, everyone dies sooner or later, to me this does not form part of the equation.
I think it's possible he gets more paranoid as he goes along. I have always taken his work excuse pretty much at face value: he had to work, and didn't think he could get out of it, and he's a stickler for following rules and being responsible. But maybe the strain is making him pull away ... I don't know. To be honest, I've never totally understood that.
But as far as evidence for Ennis longing for the sweet life, I'll point again to his happiness on the mountain. Alone in the middle of nowhere, he seems to have no problem at all loving a man. Look at the way he is in the happy tussle. He's even the one who starts it! And look at how devastated he is when he hears their summer is ending prematurely.
So no, Ennis doesn't long for the sweet life under the circumstances that Jack suggests it -- which would mean, essentially, coming out. But to the extent he allows himself to fantasize about the impossible (and he may not do this often, because it would make his self-discipline more difficult), he would love them to be together, in an ideal world ("See you tomorrow"!).
Jane, I don't quite follow you here. Are you saying Ennis did acknowledge he's "queer" but didn't acknowledge he loved a man, or what?
Anyway, I do think he acknowledged both, however reluctantly. He knew he loved a man. He knew he was gay. I also think he knew what he felt for Jack was something like love, even if he didn't give it that name. What happened too late was him realizing he shouldn't have put his fears ahead of his love.
As far as his emotional paralysis over his childhood (again, I stress that it wasn't only the Earl incident that messed him up -- that was the tip of the iceberg, the apotheosis of living with a terrifying father), that's the reason he was so fearful.
I don't quite get you here, either. My point was simply that Ennis would not be happy without Jack. We see at the end that he is not. So I don't think Jack would be doing him any favors by quitting him.
I'm not sure that Ennis longed for the sweet life just as much as Jack, I did not see any evidence that he longed for it. On the contrary, by not doing whatever it takes to be able to meet up with Jack in August, that tells me that his longing to be with Jack is not as strong as his, uhmm, fear?
I think it's possible he gets more paranoid as he goes along. I have always taken his work excuse pretty much at face value: he had to work, and didn't think he could get out of it, and he's a stickler for following rules and being responsible. But maybe the strain is making him pull away ... I don't know. To be honest, I've never totally understood that.
What happened too late was him realizing he shouldn't have put his fears ahead of his love.*deep sigh* :'(
Um, and that's a good thing ... right?You bet. :)
hahaha Katherine, I think I am gonna have to give up this ride! when you say something one way I can (what's another word for refute?), but then you say it a different way and I cannot disagree with you the second time... ??? ???
Jane, I don't quite follow you here. Are you saying Ennis did acknowledge he's "queer" but didn't acknowledge he loved a man, or what?
I don't quite get you here, either. My point was simply that Ennis would not be happy without Jack. We see at the end that he is not. So I don't think Jack would be doing him any favors by quitting him.
Why is it that I never get any responses like:
"Wow Jane, I agree completely with ever'thing you just wrote!"
"You are hunnerd percent right"
"exactly what I was gonna say, you took the words right off my computer screen! Damn you JT!"
??? ;D ;D
PS: I still stand by ever word I wrote... not sure why you guys can't see this logic like I do. ???
As far as I can tell, the only thing that seems particularly unusual about your views is that you see Ennis acknowledging that he is gay early on, but not acknowledging it's love until the end. Seems to me that most people either feel it's both early on, or it's both at the end. So yours is an unusual combination, I think. That said, I think you'll find plenty of agreement with you on both points (just not necessarily from the same people).
:)
I'll agree w/everything U say a hunderd percent, noinstruction manualquestionnaire needed, if you'll let me take off yr sunglasses!!
Well, in my unending quest to pin down every nuance of this film I now believe both of those seemingly contradictory views.
yeah, all those rainbow questionnaires were great, weren't they?
That sad fact is that WY was not and may still not be a safe place to be out. Ennis fears were not without reason. He did long for the sweet life with Jasck but he knew it wasnt possable.
It would have been illegal for Jack and Ennis to have sex in Texas, Utah, and Idaho (and several other states) until a few years ago (!).
The psychology of Ennis (or any human being) is not cut and dry. It is not always logical. As I look at Ennis, I see a very complex person who has experienced a lot of tragedy and pain in his life. So, what may seem illogical to us, really makes a lot of sense to Ennis’ way of thinking.
Often the argument is made that Ennis acknowledged he was gay because he certainly was enjoying their sexual relationship on BBM. But, one cannot compare the life on BBM with the life post mountain. BBM was free of societal norms and expectations. Ennis’ fears were suspended because he had no external pressures.
Why is it that I never get any responses like:
"You are hunnerd percent right"
PS, Jane, I just happened to go back and read your recent post with your responses on one of those questionnaires. And I can truthfully say about half of my answers match yours. So:
You are 50 percent right!
(Does that help? ;) ;) ;))
No, really, I think people agree with you more than you might think.
I agree a hunderd percent, Jane, with yr new avatar!! Applause, applause!!
But, what I really want to say is that I think there are 3 main phases of Ennis. Brokeback Ennis (free from society), Riverton Ennis (having to deal with society, but Jack is still alive, and available and the comfort that he runs to a few times a year) and then Ennis Post-Jack. I think the Ennis we see following Jack's death is a hugely different character in many ways. His evolution is lightning fast.
It is because of this that I see Ennis as becoming withdrawn and embittered. The knowledge of what he could have had, but never having the courage to live a life with Jack, IMO, would haunt him until he died.
I think the Ennis we see following Jack's death is a hugely different character in many ways. His evolution is lightning fast.
I agree, Amanda. In every scene after Jack's death, we see Ennis overtly doing things that would have been almost unthinkable earlier: 1) calling Lureen 2) Mentioning Brokeback (to both Lureen and Jack's parents) 3) visiting Jack's parents without worrying too much about what they might "think" 4) not freaking out when he discovers that they not only think, they know 5) saying "I love you" to Jack (I realize this one is arguable) 6) openly taking the shirts, another small coming out 7) using the word "love" to Jr. 8) agreeing to go to Jr.'s wedding.
I may even be forgetting some. The point is, however we interpret his state of mind (accepting his sexuality for the first time or not, accepting the description of love for the first time or not, becoming more embittered or not), he unquestionably does some things he wouldn't have done at any time previous. And to me, they all indicate he's evolving, in a positive way.
Am I the only one who has felt this way?
7) using the word "love" to Jr. 8) agreeing to go to Jr.'s wedding.
I looked back at that message and wondered why on earth, instead of putting in the number 8 (to indicate the 8th thing in the series), I would insert the shades-wearing smiley? Then I realized: if you type an 8, immediately followed by a ), you are typing the code for that smiley!
:laugh:
In paying attention to scene transitions, I've noticed sounds and music that noticeably carry over from one to the next, or that "step on" a previous scene from a subsequent one.
The one I always notice is the transition from lakeside argument to dozy embrace. It's so smooth -- maybe TOO smooth, since some people don't even get that it's a transition at first -- and I think the music is what eases it along. Am I right? (It's been a while since I've seen the movie.)
I have a new favorite scene, and it may surprise you... Recall the scene late in the movie where Ennis and Jack are walking their horses down the middle of a stream? I always thought that they had kind of glum looks on their faces because of dissatisfaction with the relationship...but as I look at it again, I'm thinking they are at peace and in harmony with each other. The reason for this change in thinking...I got to looking at the horses. Ennis is riding a beautiful black horse with a lovely diamond-shaped white star on its...forehead? (Is that what it's called). And Jack is riding an equally beautiful light-colored horse (a bay mare?) with a black shock of mane between its ears. The yin/yang sign was there all along, and I didn't even see it!! I started to see that scene differently...they are in equilibrium. Makes me think they did find some sort of peace and happiness together at last.I agree with you on this. I always thought all the horse riding scenes reflectrd the peaceful easy companionship each had only known with the other.
. Ennis is riding a beautiful black horse with a lovely diamond-shaped white star on its...forehead? (Is that what it's called). And Jack is riding an equally beautiful light-colored horse (a bay mare?) with a black shock of mane between its ears. The yin/yang sign was there all along, and I didn't even see it!! I started to see that scene differently...they are in equilibrium. Makes me think they did find some sort of peace and happiness together at last.
I have a new favorite scene, and it may surprise you... Recall the scene late in the movie where Ennis and Jack are walking their horses down the middle of a stream? I always thought that they had kind of glum looks on their faces because of dissatisfaction with the relationship...but as I look at it again, I'm thinking they are at peace and in harmony with each other. The reason for this change in thinking...I got to looking at the horses. Ennis is riding a beautiful black horse with a lovely diamond-shaped white star on its...forehead? (Is that what it's called). And Jack is riding an equally beautiful light-colored horse (a bay mare?) with a black shock of mane between its ears. The yin/yang sign was there all along, and I didn't even see it!! I started to see that scene differently...they are in equilibrium. Makes me think they did find some sort of peace and happiness together at last.
Ennis is watching Jack, his eyes are right on him. ....of course I couldn't see the expression in his eyes, but I liked to imagine that Ennis was looking fondly at his lover, he never took his eyes off him there. :)
I also like the scene where they are riding beside the stream, just moseyin' along. I like how close the horses are, which shows us the boys so close and comfortable and happy to be together.... hmmmmm ((sweet))
ya know what I mean? :-*
I have a new favorite scene, and it may surprise you... Recall the scene late in the movie where Ennis and Jack are walking their horses down the middle of a stream? I always thought that they had kind of glum looks on their faces because of dissatisfaction with the relationship...but as I look at it again, I'm thinking they are at peace and in harmony with each other. The reason for this change in thinking...I got to looking at the horses. Ennis is riding a beautiful black horse with a lovely diamond-shaped white star on its...forehead? (Is that what it's called). And Jack is riding an equally beautiful light-colored horse (a bay mare?) with a black shock of mane between its ears. The yin/yang sign was there all along, and I didn't even see it!! I started to see that scene differently...they are in equilibrium. Makes me think they did find some sort of peace and happiness together at last.
I wish (really I do) that I could see this as a happy sequence, but...
It begins after Ennis’s bleak Thanksgiving (and the music for this sequence starts while Ennis is being beaten).
... There’s no easy banter as there was during the post-sheep scene or the “You’re late” sequence; in fact, they’re silent.
They ride past a lake that’s completely still.
As they ford the stream, their horses are briefly in step, but their expressions are...expressionless and Jack never once looks at Ennis.
How funny that different people can see this same scene so 180-degrees differently!
I think keeping the 180 degree different opinions (or a spectrum of opinions) viable at the same time is a very, very cool idea and also very complicated.
I know that some friends of mine upon first viewing the film, for instance, never thought to question how Jack died. And then when you point out to them that we have no concrete way of knowing how Jack died they're sort of stunned and then they realize... oh, I really had no idea how Jack died.
Their youthful exuberance is gone. They're not smiling or joking around, to me their expressions look outright glum. They're still together, still love each other, still feel more relaxed and comfortable together, out in nature, than they do anywhere else. But being together has gone from being an entirely joyful experience to serving as a reminder to both men of the painful trap they're living in.
Actually, in contrast to this I find the next scene, the "high-class entertainment" exchange, somewhat heartening. There, their behavior seems lighter and more affectionate. Even when Ennis asks about Jack's marriage and whether he worries that "people know," they seem close; Ennis is confiding in Jack and sincerely asking for support. It's only after Jack suggests the Texas move that the mood changes.
Which do they think it is?
Which do they think it is?
From Amanda:
I sometimes think that because the filmmakers decided to show us visually Ennis's imaginative projection of what happened to Jack, his version of the story seems more "real" to the viewer or at least more palpable. This doesn't at all make it true... but it makes it powerful.
Last Monday I saw BBM in theatre again, and even the original version without dubbing (God bless those little arthouse cinemas :)).
Two new things, which I didn't notice before, or at least not in this way:
The first is a horse behind Alma. Not a real horse, but a children's toy, a hobbyhorse. In the fire-and-brimstone-crowd scene. She's sitting in an easy chair, knitting, talking about smartening up for the church social. The hobbyhorse is red and wooden, it leans at a rack behind her. I attach a pic of it.
I don't know if this is important, but it catched my eye. Reminded me of the horse pictures we see in the Twist household and the fact that we see mountain pictures, but no horse pics in the various Del Mar households.
Hm. Being around horses was everyday life for Ennis, the mountains were what he craved for (or what they symbolized for him).
Quickly becoming a salesman, Jack's everyday life didn't include being around horses anymore. Maybe the horses symbolized for him what the mountain pics did for Ennis: their time together.
The second thing I noticed was a confirmation for me. I think it's a consensus that Junior knew about her daddy and Jack, to whatever degree. "Maybe he's not the marrying kind." she tells Cassie. Directly after this conversation, Cassie drags Ennis to the dance floor. And the camera lingers on Junior's face.
This time it was like I was seeing her expression for the first time. When I saw her face, I knew that she knew.
So yes, she knows about Ennis and Jack. I attach a pic of this scene, too.
Well, the subject line keeps it pretty open. And many of those who contributed are well beyond their ninth viewing by now! ;D
I love the background activity in this film. One of the best aspects of the cinematography I think. Almost like little subliminal messages that enhance the understanding of a given scene (all the black hats and white hats, different pairings of figures, nuzzling horses, etc.).
And I have to chime in and say that when I started this topic lo those many months ago, I never thought it would live to see 20 pages. But that's the beauty of an open-ended Subject line.
Meander away, everyone! I've enjoyed all the twists and turns this conversation has taken immensely. :)
Wow, this thread sure is a treasure. I think I may have to watch the movie again ::).
Wonderful observation, Penthesilea; whether the blue inside of Ennis´shirt is deliberate or not, it´s a nice notion that Ennis had been "wearing" Jack
even before knowing him. That would mean Jack was his inevitable "fate".
Dagi
Thank you Dagi. Call it fate or force of nature, they were meant to be (as if any Brokie would ever have doubted it ;)).
It's truly a visual bookend to The Shirts.
Do we have a specific bookend thread here on BM?
Thank you Dagi. Call it fate or force of nature, they were meant to be (as if any Brokie would ever have doubted it ;)).
It's truly a visual bookend to The Shirts.
Do we have a specific bookend thread here on BM?
I found this Chrissi.
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,4631.0.html (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,4631.0.html)
I was just looking at the following Jack picture that Buffymon posted over in the JJJ thread a while ago:
(http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1113.0;attach=24833;image)
And, I was struck by how prominently the wedding ring on his hand stands out. It kind of jumps out at me more than I'd ever thought about before. I wonder if this is a bookend - of sorts - to the motel scene where Ennis's wedding ring is so prominent. This is certainly a "stuck with what I've got here" moment of disillusionment for Jack.
I just thought I'd throw this out there to see what folks think.
Yes, the scenes mirror each other. They're similar in some ways, but completely opposite in others.
At the motel scene, they hadn't seen each other for four effing years - at the miss you so much scene, they had been together-apart for almost 20 years.
Motel scene (MS): both naked - Miss you so much scene (MYSMS): completely dressed, even with jackets 'n all (think of the layer-theory).
MS: touching each other from head to toe, you barely can get any closer thant that (but they managed it just shortly before we catch a glimpse ;)) - MYSMS: sitting apart
In both scenes, they don't look at each other at the same time. Instead, they mostly look in front of them.
In both scenes, they're sharing a cigarette/joint and whiskey (even if we don't see it in the movie).
In both scenes a wedding band is prominently seen (Ennis's in MS and Jack's in MYSMS).
" " " Jack is doing the talking, mostly.
they're talking about their relationship (indirectly)
In the earlier scene, Ennis strokes Jack's arm, in the the later scene, Ennis only looks at Jack (movie only), who misses the look.
Comparing the two scenes, you can so clearly see the toll time and the circumstances took on them and their relationship, it's hard to bear. What makes the later scene easier though, is the following look into the tent. This short glimpse is a much needed relief and reassurement!
I didn't mean that Ennis had hopes in the motel scene. I meant that Jack had.
Apart from that I agree with you re Ennis. I don't think that the idea of building a life with Jack
ever even occured to him.
He might have wished he could see Jack more often, but having a life with him? No, that wasn't
within Ennis's frame of reference.
I don't think Ennis married Alma and wanted to stay with her just out of convention. I think he really
wanted to have a family, what he had been bereft of at too early an age.
I think he feels foolish, he has totally lept to a conclusion and he was off base. And I think he knew, Ennis would never commit.
Foolish and embarassed. I think Jack thought Ennis wouldn't bother to send him a postcard saying he was divorced unless it meant something in regards to the two could now be togather or an invitation for him to come right away.yeah, absolutely.
It just seemed so abrupt, like he gave up so quickly. I wonder why he did not say "are you kidding me?" or somehting to that effect, but I guess it had to be feelings he saved for that big blowup argument later on the mountain. It was really heartbreaking. The contrast of him singing in the car on the way up and then crying on the way back - so gut wrenching.I think it´s a genereal theme between them that they don´t talk about things. There is so much that is unsaid between them.
I think it´s a genereal theme between them that they don´t talk about things. There is so much that is unsaid between them.
Like vast clouds of steam from thermal springs in winter the years of things unsaid and now unsayable - admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears - rose around them.that was exactly the line from the book I was thinking about :) I was too lazy to go and look it up
I´m no expert on Wyoming, but men probably weren´t supposed to speak about their feelings. I think that´s how both men were raised so it´s no wonder they never did.
I'm sure this is bound up with the closeted nature of their relationship.
The whole topic of communication and talking together is so fascinating. It's a double-edged and convoluted thing in BBM.
Because, it seems that a major element of the attraction initially between Jack and Ennis (on the friend level and romantic level) was that Jack was able to get Ennis to talk and to smile/laugh. So much is made of the wonderful "most I've spoke in a year" scene. Clearly that conversation is a big moment in their early attraction.
And, then... Ennis's funny excuse to Alma about staying out all night at the time of the reunion... "when we get to drinkin and talkin and all..." is so ironic.
They do talk... and seem to easily loosen up together. The motel scene is mostly about talking (and intimacy). But, somehow they don't communicate about important things in their own relationship. Or when they do... it leads to tension. Almost every conversation when the topic turns to their relationship, things get tense. The "what are we going to do now?" question by Jack in the motel makes the mood there instantly heavier. The cow and calf suggestion totally changes the mood of the reunion camping trip. The "maybe Texas" conversation leads to a fight and to Jack stomping off. And, of course the big fight by the lake is the biggest example of this tension probably.
I think the divorce scene and the totally screwed up lack of communication when Jack and Ennis come off the mountain at the end of the 63 summer are the most difficult.
I'm sure this is bound up with the closeted nature of their relationship.
I don't watch the movie as often as I should but, just like that old song, "You are always on my mind."
I stopped counting after 200.
Was starting to get embarrassing, ya know?[/color]
;)
Well, I'll be damned if I didn't notice something that never registered before on my ninth viewing last night.
When Jack and Lureen are at the table with Randall and LaShawn, shortly after Randall gives Jack that long "come hither" look and just as Lureen's starting to say, "Husbands... don't never seem to wanna dance with their wives. Why do you think that is, Jack?", he's spilling something on himself - his drink, I think, a la the beans/can opener incident early on when Ennis is shirtless and about to bathe. It's the same hand movement - shaking the hand off - and disgust with himself as before. I guess this is because he's unnerved at realizing that Randall is coming on to him. And of course, there's the "So... you wanna dance?" and looking dead-on at Randall first, then glancing at LaShawn right afterwards. That I'd seen before, but not the spillage. Amazing. Not a single moment of this masterpiece is unintentional. Not a one.
More than the ninth viewing certainly, I have no idea how many times I have watched Brokeback Mountain but I can tell you last night I watched it for the first time in a few years, I would say it has been about three.
What amazes me is how much this movie is a part of my being. Like an arm. There is not one day that goes by that I do not think about it. I listen to lyrics from the POV of Jack and Ennis's story. I still find myself balancing what the on screen characters do vs. the characters in the story.
Here is an observation I would like to make about the enigmatic "Jack, I swear" closing line.
In the motel in the 1967 reunion scene, Jack tells Ennis "I swear I didn't know we were going to get into this again" and goes on to speak the truth that he had redlined it all the way there, knowing it would happen. As the story progresses to the end, the last night in the tent when Jack tells Ennis he has something going with the ranch foremans wife, it sort of sets the stage. Ennis has been stringing him along all this time, choosing to know what he wants to know about Jack's life away from him and now he is given a peek.
He has already expressed his paranoia about people out on the street looking at him like they know. Now that he starts to know and is confronted with the revelation in the Trail Head Parking lot that Jack has been to Mexico, he threatens him with violence, with death specifically, and Jack does not back down. This threat, becomes a curse of sorts.
In some of my reading on the movie there is a reference to the deleted scene featuring the mechanics, the one that shows up in the trailer but not in the movie. Allegedly, this scene involves Randall dropping off at a garage to get help with his flat tire, and those people look at him like they know. When Ennis is told of his death, what he sees in his imagination is both his worst fears from age 9 to fulfillment of what he promised to do to Jack if he ever found out, which he did.
As he tells the Twists he can't begin to tell them how sorry he feels, he is blaming himself for Jacks death. When we reach that final scene, I believe what he is saying when he says "I swear" is that he didn't know what was going to happen when he spoke at the Trail Head Parking Lot, in a way, he is saying he is sorry for cursing him.
FWIW.
Which makes it so ironic, because had Ennis been able to overcome his fear and live the sweet life -- well, Jack could still die changing a tire, but at least they would have had some happiness until then.Exactly. And i would add that it actually doesn't matter how Jack could have died (either accident or tire iron or else), STILL "they would have had some happiness until then" and Ennis would at least know every detail of Jack's death.
Which makes it so ironic, because had Ennis been able to overcome his fear and live the sweet life -- well, Jack could still die changing a tire, but at least they would have had some happiness until then.Exactly. And i would add that it actually doesn't matter how Jack could have died (either accident or tire iron or else), STILL "they would have had some happiness until then" and Ennis would at least know every detail of Jack's death.
"Sorry I can't stand much anymore, Jack...". As you all know this line is not in the story, it's not in the screenplay either and some claim even Heath's lips don't move at that point (i do see it, though), so it was edited/added later on. Why would they do that? Because it is in line with what comes after that - the break-up with Cassie. From this last line Ennis says the movie version of BBM starts, which offers that little chance of a change for them. On the other hand, due to this small word "much" one could also argue that this line means that Ennis just wants to stop their fighting (at that particular moment), that he can't stand to hear or say any of those truths anymore.
But, back to your perception of Ennis at the station - could you explain why this feels so heartbreaking to you? I would really love to hear :)
Ennis is readyAmen to that! I think so, too!
Easy one ;). Because he doesn't know yet, but we do. He's so sad and lonely already and I know the worst thing is yet to come.
And of course it's no coincidence that we see him at a Groundhog station. Ennis, who never goes anywhere except around the coffeepot looking for the handle, is sitting broodily at a place where people go to travel places. Not saying Ennis chose the G. station on purpose, but Ang Lee did.
So the Lake scene with "I can't stand this anymore", plus him being so forlorn plus the fact of the Greyhound station, plus his exchange with Cassie - all these are details that make me believe Ennis is ready (or getting there) for some changes (small baby steps of course).
Groundhog station
(http://dl9fvu4r30qs1.cloudfront.net/46/5eea20753811e2922e22000a1d0930/file/groundhog-day-bill-murray-phil.jpg)
:laugh: That's not fair!!! Now you totally ruined my tragically melancholic sad day! :laugh:
I just checked on youtube. Ennis says "I can't stand this anymore, Jack."
I think he means their whole situation, not the current fight.
He starts to see the light, so to say, thus the breakup with Cassie. I do believe that movie-Ennis has the potential to change, however small the baby steps might be.
On a side note, it breaks my heart to see Ennis so forlorn at the Greyhound station (of all places!) - and that is even before he gets the postcard about Jack's death.
(https://thetab.com/blogs.dir/98/files/2017/01/img-7107.jpg):laugh:
Thanks for joining in :) and thanks for your story, too :).
Well, but apart from the fact that his son was killed and he possibly felt guilty for it (which is horrible enough, of course) what do we know about his living arrangements? Maybe he was about to move or just moved in? And was his apartment consisting of only one room? Have you seen the others if there were more?
When I had finished university, I moved into a small flat in the center of the city. Since I didn't have much money at first, I didn't buy much furniture. I had a bed, a weird closet ( the one some people use in the attic as a second closet) and some cushions that I used as sofas. My parents were always bugging me to buy representable funiture. Me and my friends liked it that way though. It was okay.
Some years ago, friends of mine moved to the U.S. for 2 years. They brought almost all their furniture to Boston. It was a very big shipping container that was full to capacity. Like BBM victim I asked them why they didn't intend to buy things there. They told me that they wanted to be surrounded by THEIR furniture. I really didn't get it, especially since they didn't sell their house and came back twice a year for holiday.
When they moved back to Germany, they had two shipping containers, a big/ normal one and a small one. The small one included a car, a motorbike and three bikes. Funny
When I had finished university, I moved into a small flat in the center of the city. Since I didn't have much money at first, I didn't buy much furniture. I had a bed, a weird closet ( the one some people use in the attic as a second closet) and some cushions that I used as sofas. My parents were always bugging me to buy representable funiture. Me and my friends liked it that way though. It was okay.
Some years ago, friends of mine moved to the U.S. for 2 years. They brought almost all their furniture to Boston. It was a very big shipping container that was full to capacity. Like BBM victim I asked them why they didn't intend to buy things there. They told me that they wanted to be surrounded by THEIR furniture. I really didn't get it, especially since they didn't sell their house and came back twice a year for holiday.
When they moved back to Germany, they had two shipping containers, a big/ normal one and a small one. The small one included a car, a motorbike and three bikes. Funny
The other thing is what Ennis says next. He says, "When you don't got nothing, you don't need nothing." Which means, exactly, that when you lose the wish to win other's approval with your material trappings, then all of the other materialist cravings fall away. Ennis had truly learned the meaning of life, which is to love and be loved. And, that's it. :'( :-*
Just jumping in here...If I were to move overseas for two years, I doubt I would ship my furniture, only to ship it back to the US. I think I could survive for a time without my stuff. ;)
I don't know how old you are, or how long out of university...do you still have same setup? I was perfectly happy having only bedroom furniture throughout my 20s and early 30s, as I was usually sharing an apartment in an expensive state, California.
This.
Hey, Corax :)
I think we're definitely on the same Wellenlaenge ;) 'cause i'm German, too.
Is our lack of understanding this furniture issue a German thing while making a point out of it an American one? Were your friends German? Really, my personal impression of my colleague is that it's kind of a status issue - "i'm moving internationally, i need a container for my stuff" ::) I personally feel more free when i have little stuff around me. It has also all sorts of advantages, too - you don't spend much money, you don't spend much time on tidying it up, you have more room in your apartment / house... i just have more room to breathe when my place is not crammed with stuff.
The other thing is what Ennis says next. He says, "When you don't got nothing, you don't need nothing." Which means, exactly, that when you lose the wish to win other's approval with your material trappings, then all of the other materialist cravings fall away. Ennis had truly learned the meaning of life, which is to love and be loved. And, that's it. :'( :-*This.
Some of my colleagues and friends seem to care a lot about how their house is furnished and decorated. Sometimes I think they only get it decorated for their visitors.imply that the furniture issue also means keeping appearances, so does this mean for Ennis that he is now more honest with himself? I think, yes. If keeping appearances means that there are some hidden insecurities at work, then does this mean Ennis was able to already defeat some / all (?) of his demons? Does he still regard himself as not-queer? If no, there is a step further - is he still ashamed of himself? Does he still have to fight the image of his father (he kept him in high regard when he was 19)?