Does the creator of an artistic endeavor, have the right to impose their intentions on the person who is reading/watching/looking art?
Ok for those of you who believe in God, and that GLBT folkl were made that way by God, then lets carry this notion forward a little.
Annie Proulx created Ennis and Jack, so for all intents and purposes, she is their God and creator. She has said that they were/are gay, so...
I got into this argument over on DC a long while ago. Does the creator of an artistic endeavor, have the right to impose their intentions on the person who is reading/watching/looking art?
(**editorial note**- Jeff, I was posting this at the same time you were I think... so sorry for appearing to re-iterate some of your points!)
I firmly don't believe that an author/ artist can impose an interpretation on an audience member. No one can control another person's reactions or response to an ambiguous work of art to that degree. I would think it wouldn't even be an interesting thing to try to do... to impose a meaning (I mean).
Also, when it comes to the film... Proulx is no longer the only author we're talking about. Ang Lee, McMurtry, Ossana have all contributed to changes and nuances given to the characters and story line. Even the way the actors play the characters (tone of voice, facial expression, etc.) contribute to variations in how scenes are interpreted. (**editorial note**- Jeff, I was posting this at the same time you were I think... so sorry for appearing to re-iterate some of your points!)
But for me, if an author says a character is gay, then the character is gay.
In the end, though, it strikes me as presumptuous that a reader or viewer could claim to "know" a fictional character better than the creator(s) of that character.
I don't even consider the film in this discussion, so I am always referring to Ms. Proulx's original characters, but even if I did include the film, the birth mother is the birth mother no matter who may raise the child.
I think one of the functions of Cassie's character is to demonstrate that Ennis is gay. ... Cassie is presented as this gorgeous, friendly woman who practically throws herself at Ennis and he still is very, very reluctant to even dance with her. He shows no enthusiasm for her while he's with her or in his comments about "some waitress" to Jack during the camping trip.
I think Cassie is supposed to seem like a dreamgirl for most straight men. ...
And as perverse as it may sound, I tend to cherish even a willful misreading that can produce such insight/contemplation over a more cut-and-dried approach that can seem overly reductive.
Does that mean Ennis couldn't possibly have one iota of attraction to women? That he's completely at one end of the Kinsey scale? Not necessarily.
QuoteQuote from: latjoreme on Today at 12:39:33 PM
Does that mean Ennis couldn't possibly have one iota of attraction to women? That he's completely at one end of the Kinsey scale? Not necessarily.
Sure enough! I've lost track of how many gay men I've known over the past two decades who at one time were married to women and fathered biological children. It's absolutely possible.
But speaking generally, it still seems to me that to say that an artistic creation is not what its creator says it is, is not only presumptuous but even kind of disrespectful personally of the artist--like saying that he or she doesn't know what he or she is talking about when it comes to his or her own artistic creation.
Saying that an artist has convincingly created what he or she claims to have created is another matter. I think it's possible to discuss that in a way that doesn't disrespect the artist.
Wait a second. I don't get what you're saying here. Of course it's possible for gay men to marry women and have children. I've known a few myself. That's not my point. My point was that Annie Proulx might not have meant that he was "totally" gay -- perhaps when she said that she was only clarifying that he's not a straight man who falls in love with a man. Maybe she just didn't get into the shades of gray. (Or is that what you were saying? I just didn't follow.)
I thought you were saying it was possible for Ennis to be gay and yet still feel attraction to women. I was agreeing with that, and offering as evidence the fact that I have known many gay men who, I'm presuming, at one time or another at least felt or thought they were attracted enough to a woman to marry her and father children by her.
Oh, OK, you're agreeing with me? Well then, I agree with you, too! You are absolutely right! ;D
So, I'm going to re-open an old topic. Would Ennis have been capable of describing himself as "queer" by the bus stop/ pie scene? I mean in his heart of hearts (not out loud to anyone else)?
??? ;D ;)
So, I'm going to re-open an old topic. Would Ennis have been capable of describing himself as "queer" by the bus stop/ pie scene? I mean in his heart of hearts (not out loud to anyone else)?
??? ;D ;)
I think he could have (theoretically) done this two seconds after he said "I ain't queer ya know." Ennis was not stupid, he was a very naturally intelligent man, albeit uneducated, and ignorant to a lot of things, but he was far more in touch with his own personal reality than people realize.
Ennis was one of those "knower of truth" individuals. He instinctively knew not only his own personal truth (which he would never reveal), but knew the truths of others without the need of a lot of talking. I think that is what I find most tragic in this character. The loss of potential. His potential was indeed a great.
he was far more in touch with his own personal reality than people realize.
I agree with Scott and Natali. I think he knew all along --even before he met Jack -- but was in deep denial. Once he and Jack started their relationship, he had to deal with it more directly, but he kept his oppositional beliefs in separate mental compartments. On the one hand, he knew that he was gay. On the other, he thought homosexuality was bad. Somehow, he managed to juggle this cognitive dissonance for 20 years.
We all juggle cd in one way or another. His story, while eloquent and moving, is not so strange. I tend to think of cd as socially imposed ethics and morality as opposed to persoanl ethics and morality.
We all juggle cd in one way or another. His story, while eloquent and moving, is not so strange. I tend to think of cd as socially imposed ethics and morality as opposed to persoanl ethics and morality.
??? Pardon my ignorance here, but what is cd? What do you mean by it?
Cognitive dissonance was too long for me to type and with my passion for typos, I though "cd" was better...LOL