The Exclusivity Pact between Jack and Ennis --- by clancypants --- 2 of 3
by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 11:50:48 ) UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 12:11:07
lol clancy, take your time, don't make it so hard on yourself
The reason I questioned your 'YES JACK AND ENNIS LOVED EACH OTHER FROM VERY EARLY ON IN THE MOVIE' earlier (of course you already answered that on your post to littlewing) was because you said, the pact wasn't based on Ennis's love
In a way, erasing love, taking it out from the equation (on Ennis' side)
***Ennis had love, but he would not allow himself to believe it was that. He would not admit it to himself or to Jack. Ennis’ love for Jack is ALWAYS sublimated by his fears***
***But the whole point of the movie is Ennis’ struggle with that love based on his fears and insecurities***
I can also say that by basing the pact on fear, also means love was there. Fear was just and 'excuse' a fake form
But really it is easier to say, it was based on their love for each other
***It seems that a lot of people want to put a big red heart cutout over the movie so they can watch the movie through this big heart of love. Well, good for them. But that’s not what the movie is about. It’s about Ennis’ fears and him finally coming to the realization about the love that was always there but that he wouldn’t allow himself to admit. It's not a love story; it's a tragedy***
It is a forbidden love story. Love was uplifted in BBM over homophobia. Unlike the book. Clancy, no one is saying all they see is love and ignore Ennis' fear
***Their mutual agreement on choices that were all driven by Ennis’ fears***
It does have little to do on Ennis part, certainly not on Jack. Jack was being understanding, and wouldn't say anything on Ennis' behalf (on the queer subject). He answered/agreed for himself. In fact he was the one who said, this is our business alone (while if not mistaken, it was Ennis' line in the book)
Jack doesn't share the same fear Ennis had, not at Ennis level
***“If anything in control at all, it was the fear/homophobia.”
Yes. That’s what I said. Ennis is controlled by his fears; thus, Ennis is in control***
Ultimately it was fear and not Ennis. If both Ennis and Jack can eliminate this fear, both of them can take control. Nature did that for them (esp. for Ennis)
***“But on BBM, nature was in control far more superior than the fear Ennis had”
No. Ennis was more free to sublimate his fears at this time because of the openness and isolation of nature, thus letting nature take its course.
Choices and nature may be surface level factors, but underneath all of that is still one thing: Ennis' fears. It still always comes back to Ennis’s fears controlling himself and Jack understanding this***
I read it as Nature is superior than Ennis' Fear
Hence the tagline, Love is a force of Nature
Their choices were influenced by Nature obviously. It doesn't necessarily eliminated Ennis' fear, but certainly fear was defeated
Fear factor: Homophobia is almost nil if not none at all in BBM, enable Ennis to love (in the real world, Ennis was just helpless)
***If that’s true, then they would have rolled over and kissed and gone back to the tent at that very moment. No. Jack is heartbroken by this conversation. He doesn’t know what to expect from this point on. Neither does Ennis. That’s why we see them at the start of the second tent scene with Ennis sitting outside the tent trying to make his decision on what he should do. If the queer scene was all about affirming their love for each other, then what decision would Ennis have to make?***
It was true as littlewing already differentiate 'queer' as an act and not feelings. As I said, fear was only defeated, it is not their character to right away do their thing upon making the pact. They have work to do for instance and it was only their 'first' experience, in their drunken state. Jack wasn't heartbroken, but yes he was unsure what to expect. But he certainly understood the pact, hence he was getting ready for the next tent scene
Ennis did decide to go into the tent, and we see Ennis fell into the arms of another man, not out of lust but clearly with tenderness and affection. It wasn't a 'queer' act as they have agreed NOT to have such, what left if not LOVE?
by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 12:04:02 ) UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 13:50:14
***<<"You don't threaten to kill someone you aren't jealous of.”
Sure you do. When they completely and utterly destroy the very core of your being. That's what Jack's comments did to Ennis.>>
Oh, no, I disagree. In my experience only a terrified lover would threaten to kill in a case like this. Ennis in effect told Jack, If I find out you are fooling around with another man, I'll kill you. Sure it shook him to the core, but because he was afraid of being replaced. And remember Ennis totally broke down after Jack said he wish he knew how to quit him. Ennis didn't want to be quit. If there is no jealousy, there is no love***
littlewing, you are right about 'only terrified lover would threaten to kill'
Ennis was terrified, but it wasn't about jealously. He was feared on losing Jack. That would be his biggest 'problem'. The only reason he lives, was the fact Jack is alive
In another thread, I've explained, it was Ennis' way in handling problem. He resorted into violence hence threatened Jack
EDIT: He feared that Jack might get killed
by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 12:14:07 ) UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 12:23:01
<<Ennis was terrified, but it wasn't about jealously. He was feared on losing Jack. That would be his biggest 'problem'. The only reason he lives, was the fact Jack is alive>>
I see this as the same thing.
Are we actually talking about fear of losing Jack to another, or fear of Jack dying in a gay bashing or other horrible incident?
I am having a problem seeing how Ennis couldn't be jealous of Jack. Everyone I've ever spoken to who has seen the movie (more than once, mind you) tell me that Ennis was jealous in that final lake scene. How can he not be? If I loved someone, of course I would be concerned about that person's safety, but if my lover said they been seeing someone else, I would be fighting mad jealous. If not, I have no feelings for that person. Oh, and I am not a violent person, but I would resort to violence if my lover cheated on me. If I were Ennis and I imagined that sweet, appealling Jack, a man who can have anyone, hugging up on some other dude, I would be scared, and fighting mad!
by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 12:21:56 ) littlewing, I should have mentioned that Ennis was jealous about it (as I did in the other thread), but it wasn't so much about jealousy. It was his fear of loosing Jack, that Jack might get killed
Remember his childhood experienced?
Ennis lives for Jack. No Jack, he would be 'dead'
I've earlier posted the below on another thread
by - taj_e 3 hours ago (Fri May 5 2006 08:38:51 ) There's something about pestercurio's post that 'bothers' me. I just couldn't figure it out then
The fact that Ennis wasn't able to commit himself into a better (paying/secured like the electrical co) job. Ennis was just torn in between. Tried to juggle it
When he told Jack to shut up about Alma, it made more sense now
(If he can live by the 24 dollars left by his parents under his siblings care, he might thought he can do so with his family)
It is clear now, having a family, a job is just an excuse to cover up his deep secret, his love for Jack! There's no purpose in life other than to love Jack. 'It is because of (I love) you Jack, I'm like this, I'm no one, nowhere'
He tried to mantain this 'his excuses/living a 'normal' life', to enable him, loving Jack, to stand it. He feared either of them will be dead for trying to fix it. He might have thought, Jack will have the same POV and expected Jack to do the same. And warned him not to do otherwise. If Jack died, he will be 'dead' too, vice versa. Nothing to love anymore, no purpose in life anymore
(the book clearly show this)
A 'weird' way to protect your loved one but was very true in Ennis case
Ennis was helpless, crying for help in desperation, a dead man walking, a zombie
I think when he said, 'well why don't you' (followed by the rest) was almost saying, 'If you want to quit me, go ahead. Because I can't'
It hurts because it almost saying Ennis wanted to get rid of Jack. Although I can rational this as saying, if Jack finally wanted to call it a day, Jack might finally able to move on and Ennis will be content enough to wish him all best even if it will break his heart worst died of a broken heart
But as I said I choose to see this as a CRY for help in desperation. And Jack did all that for Ennis. Jack was the one who died of a broken heart and wish all best for Ennis
by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 12:29:47 ) littlewing, perhaps 'protecting' Jack would be the right word. Worried?
by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 12:34:02 ) UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 12:38:53
So what you are saying is, Ennis was jealous, but his desire to protect Jack was the stronger motivation? I'm still having trouble with this (not wanting to sound obtuse) but isn't this the brillance of this psychological, angsty drama? It can be intrepreted so many ways, and we can talk about it with great pleasure until the cows come home.
But I digress..
Okay, sure Ennis was concerned about Jack's safety, but why would he say, "All those things I don't know about could get you killed if I SHOULD come to know them." I take this to mean that I, not someone else, will kill you if I find you with another man. If he was so concerned about Jack's being killed by someone else, he would have said, "Jack, what's the matter with you? I told you what happened to old Earl, if you keep on like this, someone might kill you. I don't think Ennis would kill Jack because he was acting queer. Why do that? Why would he want to be like those goons who killed Earl? I can't believe that Ennis was THAT screwed up. If Ennis didn't want a queer relationship, he would have severed all ties with Jack from the beginning. Just my POV.
by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 12:50:20 ) ***So what you are saying is, Ennis was jealous, but his desire to protect Jack was the stronger motivation?***
Exactly. Consider Ennis' worst fear, homophobia. And of course how he handles problems, getting rid of them
***"All those things I don't know about could get you killed if I SHOULD come to know them." I take this to mean that I, not someone else, will kill you if I find you with another man. If he was so concerned about Jack's being killed by someone else, he would have said, "Jack, what's the matter with you? I told you what happened to old Earl, if you keep on like this, someone might kill you. I don't think Ennis would kill Jack because he was acting queer. Why do that? Why would he want to be like those goons who killed Earl? I can't believe that Ennis was THAT screwed up. If Ennis didn't want a queer relationship, he would have severed all ties with Jack from the beginning. Just my POV.***
Same as us begging Ennis to explain it proper to Jack while on BBM instead of giving him that dirty punch AND the frequent surprised attacked he gave his older brother then, no words said, until the his problems was gone
Jack understood the dirty punch he had (at least on the book) and the final lake threats he received
K.E understood as well as the he never again picked on him
by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 12:51:55 ) UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 12:54:27
Sorry, I've included KE there as it wasn't in the movie
And maybe the 4th of July and Thanksgiving Dinner too
by - west_mont (Fri May 5 2006 13:02:24 ) I agree with you, littlewing, on this whole discussion. Ennis was jealous, and scared of losing Jack. The thought of losing Jack was so overwhelming that he brokedown and collapsed in Jack's arms. I can still remember the shock and ache I felt when I watched BBM for the first time (over 4 months ago). I almost had a breakdown myself watching Ennis sheading tears in that final lake scene.
by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 13:04:30 ) <<Same as us begging Ennis to explain it proper to Jack while on BBM instead of giving him that dirty punch AND the frequent surprised attacked he gave his older brother then, no words said, until the his problems was gone>>
Yes, however, Ennis was no longer a 19 year old, and even though he still used violence to handle things, I would like to believe that after 20 years, he would have learned to express himself better. Perhaps not.
<<Jack understood the dirty punch he had (at least on the book) and the final lake threats he received
K.E understood as well as the he never again picked on him >>
It is okay to mention K.E. here. And even with K.E., Ennis had to be taught to hit. He did not think to hit K.E., his father put him up to it. Jack understood Ennis' violent outbursts as well, but he knew that Ennis would never hurt him. Jack also knew to keep his mouth shut about seeing other men. I'm sure Ennis suspected that Jack was sleeping with other dudes in mexico, but jack knew better than to elaborate.
by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 13:08:35 )
Exactly! Why else would he be brought to his knees when jack talks about quitting him if he weren't afraid of losing Jack, especially to another man? It doesn't make sense to me.
by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 13:17:01 ) UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 13:19:51
Yes you're right
It was because of what he was thought on KE he manifested it on Jack, Alma, the two punks, the roughneck and Jack
Obviously Ennis didn't learn how to express himself better not until the final lake scene, when he admit he can no longer stand it (ignore the 'get the f of me! lol)
I respect Jack for he knew when and what to shut up and said it all out
He was very attentive to Ennis' emotion. Not to hurt the already hurt poor Ennis, his lover. I respect him even more, when he realised he was being selfish towards Ennis. Letting himself see his lover was hurting all those 20 years
I think we have been a bit astray from the topic lol
by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 13:22:53 ) <<I think we have been a bit astray from the topic lol>>
Yes, sorta! But I'm enjoying it, nonetheless!
by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 13:40:13 ) littlewing, which is better?
Ennis threatened to kill Jack, because...
1. He was dead jealous and was afraid of loosing Jack to another man. Jack cheated on him, Jack didn't love him. Loosing Jack means the end of his world (mere jealousy)
2. He was afraid, that Jack might get killed over homophobia. Loosing Jack means the end of his world (protecting Jack)
by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 14:56:49 ) I don't think it is a matter of being better. I just think #1 is more true. Except the part about Jack cheating on Ennis, and Jack didn't love him. Just because Jack cheated does not mean he didn't love Ennis. We all saw how Ennis practically drove jack into a Mexican hustler's arms, if that did indeed happen. we didn't see what happened in that alley. Jack could have turned and ran, for all we know. Jack was hurt that Ennis rejected him and his need for Ennis may have driven him to a substitute. But he did not love Ennis any less.
I am not saying that #2 is not valid, but I don't think that was the main thing that was on Ennis' mind at the lake.
by - the_protector (Fri May 5 2006 14:57:09 )
What a great discussion!
I love the final confrontation scene because because there are so many emotions neing flung around. So many things itching to be said, fearing to be said, hating to be said.
Man, isn't love confusing and frustrating enough...why must these poor guys have to deal with the restrictions society places on them? It's just unfair!
But as far as the current debate about protection vs jealousy, I think i would choose jealousy...but not just because of the reason above. I think Ennis was jealous of Jack, not just because he was 'needing something he hardly never gets' but ACTING on that need.
When Jack goes "You have no idea how bad it gets!" He's thinking that just because Ennis is exclusive to Jack, that Ennis doesn't feel the need that Jack does.
I'm pretty sure Ennis feels that need...BUT...Ennis is dead-scared to act on it. He supresses it and becomes a human bottle rocket: Either very calm or very explosive, no middle ground. I'm sure Ennis hates feeling this way, feeling trapped. But he can't help it, the homophobia is so deeply ingrained.
Jack on the other does act on his feelings. He wears his heart on his sleeve and allows himself to fulfill his needs. Jack is embracing this 'thing' that takes hold of them. Ennis tries just to 'stand it.'
So when Jack goes "Hell yeah I been to Mexico. What's the effing problem?" Ennis' problem is that Jack's ability to pursue his feeling. Ennis is also scared and paranoid.
--"What I don't know. All those THINGS I don't know."
Ennis is totally imagining that if Jack can fulfill his needs in Mexico, there's a good chance he does things like this ALL the time.
And of course, as clancy said, this completely decimates Ennis' 'one-shot thing' delusion.
by - catglith (Fri May 5 2006 15:10:38 ) Maybe it's a little bit of both - Ennis' first reaction was a jealous rage, then after and underneath that there was a real fear that Jack could get 'found out'.
After Jack admits to going to Mexico i'm not so sure if Ennis initially thought he could lose Jack to another man so much as he thought he'd lose Jack because he couldn't give Jack what he wanted. Jack was clearly expressing how unhappy he was with the situation that Ennis had imposed on them, and was seriously upset and fed up.
After Ennis threatens Jack, Jack brings up "the rest". I think it was at that moment it dawned on Ennis that Jack was maybe carrying out more than one-night stands in Mexico, and that was when the fear for Jack (and more jealousy/anger) came in.
by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 15:13:49 ) <<--"What I don't know. All those THINGS I don't know."
Ennis is totally imagining that if Jack can fulfill his needs in Mexico, there's a good chance he does things like this ALL the time.>>
Exactly. This would scare any sane man dealing with a sweet thing like Jack! But (yeah, I'm going to open it up) Jack didn't tell Ennis exactly WHAT he did in Mexico, and I'm thinking that Ennis may have deluded himself into thinking that Jack didn't really participate, if you know what I'm referring to here. And Ennis must have realized that he drove Jack to it.
Do you think Ennis thought Jack saw other men besides Mexican hustlers?
by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 15:20:46 ) <<After Jack admits to going to Mexico i'm not so sure if Ennis initially thought he could lose Jack to another man so much as he thought he'd lose Jack because he couldn't give Jack what he wanted>>
This is what I left out. Definitely true. Ennis began to realize that Jack was nearing the end of his rope. But the end result is that Jack WOULD find another man, and Ennis must have had all those thoughts of Jack gentling, cuddling someone else, kissing him, showing some other guy the same tenderness he showed Ennis. It must have been unbearable!