Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possible?"

[rtprod]

Update 9/19: At opinionista's request, I have merged her thread, "Would it have worked?" with the older thread on a similar subject: "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possible?" (started in April by rtprod). When two threads are merged, the posts are automatically sorted in chronological order. The more recent posts start on page 3. Opinionista's opening post is #41.
-- latjoreme/Katherine


Hi everyone,

Ever wondered what might have happened in our film if that cow and calf operation had really been born circa 1967?  Let's imagine for a second that Jack and Ennis had set up life together and pursued Jack's utopian ideal -- and then imagine that although society possibly did not accept them, it at least left them alone and let them somewhat prosper.  Could it have ever really worked, even if those external barriers were lifted?   

Not in my mind.  Ennis is his own nemesis, and I wonder how long it would have taken Jack to "quit." 

Anyone have any feelings on this or even on their own "quitting" or limits? 

rt

[EnnisDelMar]

I think they could have had a 'sweet life', but I do agree that Ennis had been scarred as a boy by his father, and that probably would have kept him from giving himself completely to Jack.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Funny you should bring this up now, rt. I've been thinking along the same lines myself, although I've been coming at the question from an economic perspective.

I believe I remember reading in Annie Proulx's essay that she is interested in the lives of people in changing economic conditions. I find myself thinking that perhaps the only way they would even have had a chance was to take over the Twist spread in Lightning Flat--which, apparently, Jack did mention to his folks from time to time. How much money could he have expected to get out of his father-in-law? I'm sure it takes quite a lot of capital to set up even a "little" cow and calf operation. At least by taking over the Twist homestead, they wouldn't have had to buy property to set up the operation--let alone equipment and stock.

Regardless of Ennis's personality--and I'm not disputing your point here--many couples, gay and straight, break up over money issues. So I'm wondering whether Ennis and Jack's relationship could have withstood economic strain. Or, put another way, was Jack's dream ever really possible in the Wyoming of the 1960s and 1970s?

[moremojo]

If Ennis could get to the point of setting up a menage with Jack in the first place, that would indicate remarkable progress in his acceptance of himself, of Jack, and of their relationship. He might still have rationalized the situation with thinking that he and Jack were otherwise straight guys who had this unusual thing between them, but he would have been aware that he was in love with Jack and that this might work for them.

And I think it could have worked...Ennis had reason to fear for  his and Jack's safety, but there was no certainty that either of them would meet the same fate as Earl (and whatever happened to Earl's partner?). By the end of the story, a remarkable number of people know (or knew) the truth about Ennis and Jack: Aguirre, Alma, Mr. and Mrs. Twist, Lureen, and possibly Alma Junior. And Ennis is still alive at the end. I agree with you that Ennis was his own worst enemy in thwarting any possible future with Jack (and Jack surely realized this eventually). The rest of his life will probably be haunted by thoughts of what-might-have-been, had he been more receptive to Jack's desires.

Scott

[houstonangel88]

rt, I think the ONLY chance they had was the time when they first came down from the Brokeback mountain.   There is NO way Ennis would get a divorce; he loves his two daughters too much to do it.   It was Alma who kicked him out after 10 years...  and still, Ennis wouldn't make any move.   

[MaineWriter]

I think it could've worked, but not in 1967. This is part of the reason I set my fictional story in 1976, after Ennis's divorce. In 1967 I think they were both still fairly young and immature. They didn't have a lot of life between them and for them to try to get together and set up housekeeping...it would be tough. I'm with Jeff, I think it would've been economic issues that would've ruined their relationship, in the end, but I think immaturity would also play a large role, too.

Nine or ten years later, Ennis having lived through a failed marriage, Jack's was loveless--I think they would have come together realizing more about themselves, Ennis in particular. I think with that experience to build on, they could have  come to a place where they would've had a context for understanding how to make their relationship work, through the good and bad.

I am also assuming that Jack has picked up a little business acumen through his work with Newsome's and they would be able to come up with some sort of economic plan for their lives that would have been viable.

[Lumière]

I am an optimist, and I'd have to say that they'd have made a proper go of it.  It might not have been "the sweet life" but I think it would've been a life that was, at least true to who they were.   More importantly, they loved each other; they clearly enjoyed each others presence and longed for moments when they could be together.  There were fundamental differences between Jack and Ennis, they both knew that.  I think Jack knew what he'd be getting into when he proposed the "cow and calf operation" to Ennis.   

IMO, it would've taken alot to get Ennis to accept the idea of "2 guys livin' together" ... so if he actually said yes to the cow & calf operation, he'd have had to overcome at least a few of his 'issues'.  I definitely think that a good life would've been possible, don't know it would've been SWEET, but then again, nothing in life is perfect. 

[serious crayons]

I don't see Ennis as QUITE as screwed up as some people do. He's shy and inhibited and hot-tempered, but those are fairly ordinary traits that don't necessarily preclude happy relationships. The only really big, relationship-hindering problem Ennis has is homophobia -- as long as that was an obstacle, he'd never take Jack up on his idea. In the actual movie, it took Jack's death to show Ennis that he shouldn't have let homophobia get in the way of their happiness. Once Ennis gets that, his attitude is much better; if he had it all to live over, I'm sure he would have done things differently.

So RT's question requires assuming that some other event or epiphany caused Ennis to see the light sooner. If that happened, then, yes, I think they could have had as much chance as anybody to succeed as a couple. More, in fact, because their personalities and skills are so complementary, and because their relationship was SO GREAT in so many ways.

And Scott, thanks for pointing out that
By the end of the story, a remarkable number of people know (or knew) the truth about Ennis and Jack: Aguirre, Alma, Mr. and Mrs. Twist, Lureen, and possibly Alma Junior. And Ennis is still alive at the end.

I've always really liked that, because it adds another layer of meaning. As we all know, in real life Ennis' fears are not unfounded. But in the movie itself, nobody who is aware of their relationship does anything mean to them at all, outside of a few snide comments. Aguirre doesn't even do that until a year later! Alma waits until long after their divorce! By making Ennis' hangups the most serious obstacle, the movie becomes not just about the life-choice limitations imposed by an intolerant society (which, IMO, better describes the short story), but also about how that intolerance warps its victims emotionally, and about the broader issue of not letting your fears rule your life.

(BTW, somewhere around here I saw someone who sounded pretty knowledgable about ranching describing all the economic factors that would have made their success unlikely. If I find it, I'll let you know.)

[Front-Ranger]

Yes, I think it would have been possible, in fact a cow/calf operation really needs to have 2 men or more running it in order to be economically feasible. The ratio of men to women in that region makes an insistence on the traditional family unit impractical. Since pioneering days, women have left rural areas or died of childbirth; even Alma did not want to live in a rural ranch house. There must have been male-only households all over the place. Although there were a few extremists like Ennis' dad who tried to impose their will on the community, they are fortunately few and dealt with through the justice system or through fate.

That leaves Ennis' internal hangups. So, the question is, how much would Jack be willing to tolerate? There again, I think Jack would have had the patience to let Ennis slowly shed his cautiousness, as well as the strength to resist his temper, as Alma didn't. Jack would have been a better spouse for Ennis than Alma was. Ennis had the capacity to change, as was seen on BBM, and he really listened intently to Jack. He would have retained some of his hangups but what couple doesn't have hangups? The real test of love is accepting a person the way they are.

[SFEnnisSF]

Since I've been reading Leslie's A Love Born From Steele, I'm somewhat blinded by her story and agree with her post above. 

Yes, I'm an optimist too, and people DO change.  Ennis would have wanted nobody else but Jack, and just by taking the first step of ranching together would have only been the beginning of Ennis coming out of his shell.  I think it would have worked out rather nicely.  Sure they would fight like every other couple, but honestly, I think they loved each other so much that they would have been toghether until the end.