Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possible?"

[Katie77]

Thank you all for your kind remarks, I appreciate your comments.

I have just re read what I wrote, and as one reply commented it does sound very "matter of fact".... I guess thats the way I look at it now, and probably looked at it then. When it was happening, it didnt seem like a tragedy, except for the fact that my parents separated, which is hard to handle for any child, no matter what the circumstances...and back then, having divorced parents wasnt as common as it is now, so that was more embarrassing to divulge to my friends.

Once I married, and had children of my own, I saw a different prospective of things...the gay thing still didnt bother me, (although I still did not tell people that my dad was gay)...but I could look at him now as a father, from a parent point of view, and realized that it was still best that he decided to lead the life he chose, mostly in fairness to my mother.

Now, when I think of my mother, she is my hero, she had the strength to let him go to lead the life that she, in those times, was not too sure about anyway.I do remember as a child, before they separated, having contact with a few lovely men who were visitors to our home, and in conversations I have had since, with my mum,been told that  they were my dad's friends, homosexuals, who were not only welcomed into our home by my dad, but by my mum as well....she actually tolerated it, in her marriage, until the time came for her to let go.

I think of how frightened she must have been in those times, to be alone with a 7yr old and a 10yr old daughter.We moved to Sydney, which was 100 miles away from where we had lived, (Dad and his new partner also moved to Sydney too).

Remember we are talking about the late 50's here....My mum got full time work on an assembly line in a factory, we lived in one room in a boarding house for a while, then some small flats (apartments), until, about 12months later my mum met my future step-father, who with mum, bought a house, where i lived with them until i married.Dad was always welcome to the house to visit, and on many occassions, he and his partner were invited to Christmas Dinner with us.(so the thanksgiving dinner scene in the movie, was similar to what our christmas dinner table was like).

When Dad took his life, my mum was very sad, and grieved his passing.

I think the thing that makes mum my hero, is the fact that she didnt tell me anything about my dad, until I started asking her questions about him.There were a few occassions when she got angry with him about decisions with us kids, and they had an argument, but she still didnt use her anger to put shit on him.I realize what a strong woman she has been, it must not have been easy for her. She is 80 this year, and widowed, but about six months ago, she met up with a man in the village she was living in, and now her and him have moved into their own private unit in town, and are like a couple of school kids together...he is 89....she is very very happy....and I think the reason for that is she still has the ability and the emotions to feel love and companionship, so its no wonder she is my hero.

So, I concede that my life hasnt been what you would call, a "normal" one, but, I have had two wonderful parents who had plenty of love for each other, their partners and their children, and I dont mean to end this on a sad note, but the only tragedy in my life, was losing my sister in 1971, when she was 22yrs old, in a boating accident, that was the tragedy of my family, and that is what saddens me the most, because that was so unfair, and she deserved to be here longer than 22 yrs, thats for sure.....

I also want to say, that since seeing the movie, and then joining the message board fraternity, I have written more about my life story, than even more than my closest friends ever knew, and it therefore made me recognise that I should be telling them my story too, and so I have done that now, and as close friends do, they have embraced me, with love and understanding, and gratitude for trusting them enough, to divulge all my "hidden secrets".

Thank you all here too, for doing the same.....and once again, I go back to the fact, that one movie, one wonderful movie, has had so much influence on me...no wonder it is in my soul...

[opinionista]

Hi everyone,

As some of you know, I'm a regular of the Ennis and Ellery thread over at CT. Today a topic came up which reminded me about something I've always been wondering ever since I read an interview with Jake Gyllenhaal about the movie. This is the quote from the interview that got me thinking:

Yeah. I think there's a part of him that wants to progress and wants to change and wants things to move forward, and is constantly kind of pushing Ennis to come out of his shell. But it's that dance between the two of them that I think makes the two of them fall in love. If Ennis were to completely come out of his shell, would the two of them still be in the relationship that they're in throughout the film? I don't know. But yeah, that is a big part...It was a struggle to keep that up while you're feeling lonely.
http://movies.radiofree.com/interviews/brokebac_jake_gyllenhaal.shtml

Well, it made me wonder that if Ennis and Jack had the chance to live the "sweet life" if it would've actually worked, considering their actual circumstances. I mean their poverty, the rural homophobia, their frame of mind, divorce and child support duties, etc. Before you give me hell, I'd like to explain that something I have learned from my experiences in the love department is that sometimes what makes you fall in love with someone is not enough to make a relationship work. We will never know, of course, if they would've made it as a live in couple, but it's something hasn't come up in the in the endless discussions about their relationship. I don't think it has, anyway.

Would it have worked? I wonder. It's hard enough to keep a long distance relationship going, but it is even harder to make it work under the same roof. I don't know, but this is something I have always wondered. What do you think?

PS. If this topic was already discussed, please let me know via pm before actually posting and I'll delete it. I looked for it, and didn't find it. I even used the site's search engine, and got 0 results.

[delalluvia]

Well, it made me wonder that if Ennis and Jack had the chance to live the "sweet life" if it would've actually worked, considering their actual circumstances. I mean their poverty, the rural homophobia, their frame of mind, divorce and child support duties, etc. Before you give me hell, I'd like to explain that something I have learned from my experiences in the love department is that sometimes what makes you fall in love with someone is not enough to make a relationship work. We will never know, of course, if they would've made it as a live in couple, but it's something hasn't come up in the in the endless discussions about their relationship. I don't think it has, anyway.

Would it have worked?

Would the relationship in a sweeter life lasted?  I think so.  What you mentioned that 'made them fall in love' is also what keeps people together.  I think the stats say that people who stay together are those who share the same kind of background and values.  Jack and Ennis had that.  That's one reason why Ennis was able to come out of his shell with Jack.  They shared a great deal.  Jack knew how to 'deal' with Ennis and he was also charismatic enough to attract and keep Ennis' interest for years.  I think more contact would have made him come out more and more and it would have worked.  Jack was nothing if not persistant.  He wouldn't have stopped trying to keep the relationship going.

[ednbarby]

Interesting topic, Natali.  I think that if it's been discussed, it was a long time ago so it's worth a retread.

I often think that although I was passionately in love with two different young men at different times before I met my husband, had I married either of them we'd have been done long ago.  We had knock-down, drag-out fights not unlike Ennis' and Jack's at the lake, but regularly.  And with one of them, I had a long-distance relationship for 2 years.

It's hard to say.  But my guess would be that they'd make it (but only in a perfect world) because they not only had the passion - they had the friendship that comes from having such similar backgrounds and having experienced such similar heartbreaks and hardships so young.

When I look at those two guys in my life - honestly, I had little to nothing in common with either of them.  Their experiences, tastes, and goals in life were vastly different from my own.  Not so with Ennis and Jack.  That's what makes it so tragic, I think - that deep down, we realize that in a perfect world, they probably would have made it.  And been one of those lifelong love stories that warm your heart - like the little old man and lady you see walking hand in hand every once in a great while and you know they've been together forever - not break it.

[Jeff Wrangler]

In general, I agree with Del and Barb.

On the other hand, a lot of relationships come to grief over mundane matters, money in particular. If they'd managed to set up that little cow and calf operation and made a success of it, I think they would have had a chance. If the ranch had failed, I honestly don't know if the relationship could have withstood the stress. Possibly it would not have, but I'd like to think that it would have.

[delalluvia]

In general, I agree with Del and Barb.

On the other hand, a lot of relationships come to grief over mundane matters, money in particular....If the ranch had failed, I honestly don't know if the relationship could have withstood the stress. Possibly it would not have, but I'd like to think that it would have.

I don't think this would have been a problem either.  They were both brought up in near poverty.  Ennis especially.  Having a failing business would have just sent them out to be cowhands/sheep herders again, doing anything to keep the place going/money coming in because that's how they've lived their whole lives.

[serious crayons]

I'm enough of a romantic to believe their relationship would have worked. The ranch, I'm not so sure. But Ennis was used to poverty, and Jack seemed willing to go back to it. He might end up complaining about it a lot. But eventually Jack would inherit the Twist ranch.

As for homophobia, Ennis would be paranoid, but Jack would be reassuring, and they both would know they could not be happier anywhere else.

Maybe an even bigger problem would be keeping in contact with their kids. In them days, I think their living together would endanger those relationships, especially with the kids who were still minors. But Alma Jr., for one, would have made sure they kept in touch, I think.

[welliwont]

Yeah, I think it would have worked out in the long run.  For lots of the reasons that have already been stated, common background, used to poverty, etc etc.

If only that stupid Ennis had allowed himself and Jack to go for that sweet life, I think that they would have lasted because Jack would have kept things going no matter what.  Boo Ennis!     All we got now is Jack and Ennis fanfic!

[nakymaton]

I think it depends on a lot of things.

First, whether the Twist ranch worked out. (Are we dealing with movie-OMT, who seems more interested in just having reliable help, or with story-OMT, who I, at least, think is still homophobic?)

Second, at any ranch, on what Jack's reason was for being crazy to leave Lightning Flat. Was it a matter of being gay and lonely, or was it partly a matter of not liking ranch life? (I mean, it sounds idyllic, but it's hard work. Jack knows it... but he also wanted to leave it and join the rodeo circuit. How much of a thrill-seeker was Jack?)

Third, whether the ranch succeeded or failed economically. I think it would have been easier on them if they had their own place than if they were always looking for jobs working for someone else. Ranches are folding these days, a lot, and the work that Jack and Ennis grew up doing might get harder to find. And even if they didn't face actual physical violence, they would almost certainly have had to face bigotry and bias and low-level hostility, day-in and day-out. The more people they had to deal with, the more they would have to face homophobia.

Fourth, how would they have dealt with being separated from their kids.

Fifth, if the ranch didn't work out, whether they could bear to move to someplace like Denver in the end.

I don't tend to see relationships as doomed to either success or failure from the start. Not if both people are willing to stick it out and work on it and everything. I think that if Ennis could somehow overcome his internalized homophobia and agree to living with Jack, that he would be incredibly loyal and willing to work through just about anything. Jack, hmmm. Depends on whether we're talking about story-Jack or movie-Jack. I think that movie-Jack would probably have dealt with things if he knew he had Ennis (though he would bitch a lot, and be really cute about it, too ). Story-Jack I'm not so sure about, partly because it's a bit harder to be sure exactly what makes him tick.

I think they could have made the relationship work out, though, and still had a pretty rough or sad life. (Not being able to see the kids, or having to leave Wyoming, would be sad endings of a sort, too, at least IMO.)

[Front-Ranger]

Here's a link to the "Would a Sweet Life Ever Have Been Possible" topic started by rt, but it's fine with me to start a new topic.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1011.0