Author Topic: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?  (Read 9349 times)

rtprod

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Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« on: April 26, 2006, 12:46:02 pm »
Hi everyone,

We never talk much about this, but in the lake scene the economic subtext that comes to the fore about Ennis' lack of success and forward economic motion in life always really affects me, perhaps because I feel something deep for Ennis.  "You forget what it's like being broke all the time.  You ever hear of child support?"   It's also there when we see Ennis bailing hay while Jack is selling farm equipment.  And it's there in the line about how his truck "won't make it" to Texas.  Also, the little shack he is living in after the divorce. Reminds me of a lot of guys in my hometown, who didn't ever leave there (physically or otherwise), instead got tangled up in shit and are still doing like Ennis.  I'm not friends with any of them anymore--I went on and lived in a city, started a different life.  But I hear tales...

Anyway, wonder if Jack ever felt inclined to help Ennis out financially, and if Ennis would have been able to accept.  Jack obviously saw and knew about all of the lost jobs, hard times and dead ends Ennis experienced. 

rt

« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 12:51:06 pm by rtprod »

Offline David

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2006, 12:52:28 pm »
I think Ennis would have refused any help from Jack financially.   Too much pride.   

As far as bettering himself and his family,  heck, he wouldn't even consider getting a better job, ie: at the power plant, when Alma suggested it.    Perhpas he was embarrassed that he didn't have a High School diploma?

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2006, 12:52:51 pm »
I guess I'd like to believe Jack might have wanted to help. But to offer, I'm certain, would have hurt Ennis's pride enormously. Like Alma's slap at him, that she'd have more of his kids if he'd support them.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

rtprod

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2006, 12:56:06 pm »
Quote
he wouldn't even consider getting a better job, ie: at the power plant, when Alma suggested it. 


Think he wouldn't take it because full-time would have interfered with the trips. 

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2006, 01:03:43 pm »
Quote
he wouldn't even consider getting a better job, ie: at the power plant, when Alma suggested it. 


Think he wouldn't take it because full-time would have interfered with the trips. 

I guess it would have, but, tell you what, I think Ennis really enjoyed ranch work. I don't have a copy of the story with me here at work, but my memory is that the word Annie Proulx uses to describe his attraction to it is yearning.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline David

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2006, 01:07:30 pm »
Think he wouldn't take it because full-time would have interfered with the trips. 

True, but he was working those types of jobs even before Jack showed up four years later.   

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2006, 01:20:52 pm »
My interpretation of the power-plant question, based on context (he's about to go off with Jack), his flimsy excuse for not applying, and his later remark that in them days he'd just quit the job, is that he wanted more freedom to see Jack.

But back to RT's original question. Jack does offer to help out Ennis financially, and gets harshly rebuffed, that first summer as they're packing up to leave the mountain. Granted, Ennis reacts that way because he's distraught that their time together is ending, and because he's angry that Jack doesn't read between the lines and understand the real reason he's so upset, and because Jack seems so cheerful himself. But Jack seems to take the exchange more literally, which may be what keeps him from ever offering again.

But if he did, I don't think Ennis would have accepted.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 01:27:34 pm by latjoreme »

rtprod

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2006, 01:32:22 pm »
Right about the offer up on the mountain in 1963, but at that time they were two kids on equal terms.

When the rising economic inequity over the years was apparent to both, with Jack aware of Ennis' back-breaking work to pay child support and just survive, I was wondering why he never offered. 

rt

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2006, 01:49:14 pm »
Right about the offer up on the mountain in 1963, but at that time they were two kids on equal terms.

When the rising economic inequity over the years was apparent to both, with Jack aware of Ennis' back-breaking work to pay child support and just survive, I was wondering why he never offered. 

rt

Well, what I meant was Jack took from that exchange the message that Ennis was too proud to accept a handout, and perhaps assumed that pride still existed as their economic gap widened.  (And by the way, even then they weren't quite on equal terms.)

Of course, Jack SORT OF offers financial help through his proposal that they take LD Newsome's money and set up ranching. And Ennis rejects that, too, though obviously for more complicated reasons. And in the years that follow, by always being the one to drive up to Wyoming, Jack takes on a slightly greater financial burden.

But I think Jack assumes correctly that if he offered anything more substantial, Ennis would repeat his "I aint in the poorhouse, you know" response.




rtprod

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2006, 02:24:53 pm »
Lat, you just might be right about that one. 

I would have done it in other ways than just trying to write him a check.  For instance, bought him some new clothes maybe, a downpayment for a decent place to live, or a better truck. 

rt


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2006, 02:36:39 pm »
What I wish Jack would have done is buy himself a place to live near Riverton.

rtprod

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2006, 03:02:36 pm »
Yes, lat, now that is a good idea.  Why not?  Or even his own cabin so there would be somewhere other than the "friggin cold" to be together in.

Nice one.

rt   :)

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2006, 03:17:58 pm »
Putting a whole different spin on this...Jack correctly saw, especially at the end, that they had no relationship. Yes, they were in love but their "relationship" was "a couple of high altitude f3cks once or twice a year." For him to offer Ennis money, no matter how nicely or tactfully done, could be perceived by both as paying for sex. Jack as the John, Ennis as the prostitute. Not a nice image at all.

L
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Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2006, 03:44:51 pm »


I've only read about half of the other stories in Close Range, but it strikes me that Annie Proulx writes a lot about characters who are tied, in some way that they don't understand and don't choose, to the landscape. There's a sense of being unable to escape Wyoming in her stories, and I think Ennis in particular fits in with those characters quite well. (Except that Ennis and Jack are much more likeable than her other characters -- I like her writing, but Ennis and Jack are the only ones of her characters that I really ache for.)

It's not just the landscape. I think it is very hard for a person with limited education, no economic advantage, and no worldview to break away from what exists as reality. Certainly this is impossible for Ennis to do, as we see. Even his daughter is basically heading down the same path.

Interesting, in my own life: my son is a senior in HS. He and all his friends have all made the decision about college for next year. Back in the fall, they were talking about Hawaii, California, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts...you name it, anywhere but Maine. Now that the dust has settled, guess what? The vast majority are staying right here. Some are going to Orono, but quite a few are choosing the local option and plan to live at home and commute. The process has been interesting too--and the roles the parents have played. One girl desparately wanted to go out of state--she was basically bribed by her parents with a new car to stay put. Another kid was bribed by his grandparents with money for tuition.

You'd think these are kids with some advantage (education and money) but it looks like many of them will end up in Westbrook, ME for the rest of their lives. Yes, they will have better jobs than Ennis and hopefully a bit more money, but is the situation all that different?

BTW, my son is leaving...heading a private, liberal arts college in New York. And I'll probably be working for the rest of my life to pay for it. LOL!

L
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2006, 04:02:48 pm »


I've only read about half of the other stories in Close Range, but it strikes me that Annie Proulx writes a lot about characters who are tied, in some way that they don't understand and don't choose, to the landscape. There's a sense of being unable to escape Wyoming in her stories, and I think Ennis in particular fits in with those characters quite well. (Except that Ennis and Jack are much more likeable than her other characters -- I like her writing, but Ennis and Jack are the only ones of her characters that I really ache for.)

It's not just the landscape. I think it is very hard for a person with limited education, no economic advantage, and no worldview to break away from what exists as reality. Certainly this is impossible for Ennis to do, as we see. Even his daughter is basically heading down the same path.

Interesting, in my own life: my son is a senior in HS. He and all his friends have all made the decision about college for next year. Back in the fall, they were talking about Hawaii, California, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts...you name it, anywhere but Maine. Now that the dust has settled, guess what? The vast majority are staying right here. Some are going to Orono, but quite a few are choosing the local option and plan to live at home and commute. The process has been interesting too--and the roles the parents have played. One girl desparately wanted to go out of state--she was basically bribed by her parents with a new car to stay put. Another kid was bribed by his grandparents with money for tuition.

You'd think these are kids with some advantage (education and money) but it looks like many of them will end up in Westbrook, ME for the rest of their lives. Yes, they will have better jobs than Ennis and hopefully a bit more money, but is the situation all that different?

BTW, my son is leaving...heading a private, liberal arts college in New York. And I'll probably be working for the rest of my life to pay for it. LOL!

L
xo

Perceptive and enlightening, Leslie! Great contribution to the discussion!  ;)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline cmr107

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2006, 07:39:15 pm »
Interesting, in my own life: my son is a senior in HS. He and all his friends have all made the decision about college for next year. Back in the fall, they were talking about Hawaii, California, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts...you name it, anywhere but Maine. Now that the dust has settled, guess what? The vast majority are staying right here. Some are going to Orono, but quite a few are choosing the local option and plan to live at home and commute. The process has been interesting too--and the roles the parents have played. One girl desparately wanted to go out of state--she was basically bribed by her parents with a new car to stay put. Another kid was bribed by his grandparents with money for tuition.

That's how it was with my friends when we went to college. I'm from southern IL, close to St. Louis, MO. Out of my group of friends, one went to Georgia, one to Connecticut, one to Washington DC, and I went to Chicago (300 miles away from home). Almost everyone else I know went somewhere really close to home. Some live on their respective campuses (campi?), but many go to local colleges and live at home. Some of them were bribed with cars and tuition money.

My school has about 2,600 students, and only about 800 are residents. The rest commute. Among those 800, MANY of them live close by and go home most, if not all, weekends. One time I was talking to a commuter and she was talking about how nice it was to eat dinner at home because our cafeteria is so bad. I mentioned that I live 300 miles away so that isn't really an option for me, and she said "oh, that's too bad." I just thought, um, no it isn't, I wanted to leave. I almost wish I went farther away. It has nothing to do with my parents, in fact I probably like my parents more than most people my age. I just think it's a good experience to go away to college. It makes me feel kind of isolated from other students here. Luckily, my best friend here lives about 45 minutes away from me in Missouri, so we drive home together. It's a weird feeling here sometimes.

That's cool that your son is going to New York Leslie. I thought about going there. Decided I would probably like Chicago better though.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2006, 08:12:32 pm »

As for the question of why Ennis didn't take a better job... is there anybody here who left a rural place and doesn't regret leaving the close-mindedness, but misses something else about the place? The landscape, maybe, or the way the food tasted, or the accent, or the amazing number of stars you can see at night? Is there anybody from a city who dreams of running off and starting an organic farm, or raising llamas or something?

The way I see it is... Ennis just is Wyoming in a way, an older Wyoming that is disappearing. He's good with animals (he looks so good on a horse... mmmm), he's a good shot with a rifle, he can read the weather (in the short story, at least; I can't remember an instance of it in the movie). But he's not good at reading (he's far-sighted in the story). Would he be good at a power company job, working regular shifts, doing the same repeated tasks? He certainly didn't look very happy when he was doing road construction work, and that's still outside, at least.

I've only read about half of the other stories in Close Range, but it strikes me that Annie Proulx writes a lot about characters who are tied, in some way that they don't understand and don't choose, to the landscape. There's a sense of being unable to escape Wyoming in her stories, and I think Ennis in particular fits in with those characters quite well.

Ditto.  IMO, Ennis LIKED ranch work.  He wasn't working on a time clock, but could be with animals, under the big sky and not have to worry about people judging him on his lack of money, lack of desire for conversation, his clothes, his lack of education or finally his sexuality.  Perhaps he was hiding and ranch work was the best place to do it and he grew to like it.  Dunno.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2006, 10:52:00 pm »
Quote
IMO, Ennis LIKED ranch work.

Ennis did like ranch work. According to the AP original, he positively yearned for it.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2006, 01:15:43 am »
Ditto.  IMO, Ennis LIKED ranch work.  He wasn't working on a time clock, but could be with animals, under the big sky and not have to worry about people judging him on his lack of money, lack of desire for conversation, his clothes, his lack of education or finally his sexuality.  Perhaps he was hiding and ranch work was the best place to do it and he grew to like it.  Dunno.

And, presumably, he was good at it. He seemed pretty responsible and hard working -- too much so, one might argue. But it was probably one of the few areas in his life where he felt in control and sure of himself and, on a limited scale, successful.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2006, 03:14:27 am »
Thanks for this thread.  Just some thoughts:

We don't ever see an example of either of them giving each other a thing, other than what they share while they are together.  In fact, Jack takes one of Ennis's only two shirts.

And in later years Jack is always warmly dressed in vests and thick parka, and Ennis is in a canvas jacket.  Brr.  Actually even up on the mountain young Jack had that warm jacket and Ennis was in canvas. 

There's a thoughtlessness to Jack around money, the way he complains about what's the point of making it, and Lureen searching for extra zeros.  Ennis doesn't seem envious or bitter, he just says it sounds like some high class entertainment, meaning a high quality problem.

Another financial advantage Jack has until the end of his life is living parents with a place he can come and stay anytime he wants, something Ennis lost very young. 

Jack was a pragmatist, marrying Lureen, and staying with her, enduring old man Newsome, for the security.  I think he was fond of Lureen in the early years, and stayed fairly respectful of her, but I think that he stayed in the marriage for the financial security and the pretty clothes and jewelry he could thus afford.

Just thought of something else I want to add - I think Ennis really is stating his credo when he tells Junior, when you don't got nothin you don't need nothin.  So partly he is truly an ascetic, but partly it's just emotionally safer to not want.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 03:32:49 am by Ellemeno »

Offline opinionista

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2006, 05:39:22 am »
I think Ennis would have refused any help from Jack financially.   Too much pride.   

As far as bettering himself and his family,  heck, he wouldn't even consider getting a better job, ie: at the power plant, when Alma suggested it.    Perhpas he was embarrassed that he didn't have a High School diploma?

Ennis doesn't get the job at the power plant becuase of Jack. If He had a 9 to 5 job, he wouldn't have been able to take a week off to go "fishing" with Jack.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2006, 09:06:50 am »
There's a thoughtlessness to Jack around money, the way he complains about what's the point of making it, and Lureen searching for extra zeros.  Ennis doesn't seem envious or bitter, he just says it sounds like some high class entertainment, meaning a high quality problem.

All excellent points, Elle. I also was thinking about the first of the scenes you refer to above. It IS a bit tactless to complain about the frustrations of paying capital gains tax, or whatever it was, to someone who lives in a delapidated shack.

And this

Just thought of something else I want to add - I think Ennis really is stating his credo when he tells Junior, when you don't got nothin you don't need nothin.  So partly he is truly an ascetic, but partly it's just emotionally safer to not want.

is an interesting idea. I had interpreted the statement as covering both his indifference to material things and his grief over Jack -- who cares about furniture when you don't have the love of your life. But as a credo, it applies to just about everything from beans on out. Ennis does find it emotionally safer to not want, and loving Jack was really the only exception he made.

It's amazing how many small, random, seemingly offhand lines in the movie contain such volumes of meaning.





Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2006, 09:13:46 am »
And in later years Jack is always warmly dressed in vests and thick parka, and Ennis is in a canvas jacket.  Brr.  Actually even up on the mountain young Jack had that warm jacket and Ennis was in canvas. 

That canvas jacket, though, is just the film being true to Annie Proulx. She created the character as someone who, summer and winter, "steps around" in worn boots, old jeans, and frayed shirts, and just adds the canvas coat in cold weather. Heck, in the original, the man doesn't even wear socks with his boots! (Ouch. ...)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2006, 12:46:20 pm »
I wonder if that's also, somehow, the reason for Ennis saying "It's because of you I'm like this" to Jack at their last meeting? If Ennis was really saying "it's because of you that I need love; if I had never met you, I wouldn't care about it"? (That is: that Ennis isn't saying that Jack's the reason Ennis is gay, or that Jack's the reason that Ennis is poor. But Jack is the reason that Ennis wants... well, love, though Ennis wouldn't put it like that.)

YES!! Naky, that's approximately how I've always interpreted that line. And combining it with Elle's "don't need nothin" insight makes perfect sense. (In fact, it never occurred to me before now that someone MIGHT think he's saying "because of you I'm gay." I've never thought that, and still don't.) He may think he's saying "because of you I'm poor and unsuccessful." But what he really means is, "because of you I'm lonely and heartbroken and unhappy," not because of anything Jack did, but because he wants to be with Jack and can't, and if Jack weren't there he wouldn't have to feel bad. Implicitly, it's his response to "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." Not as sweet, of course, but in character.




Offline Kd5000

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2006, 03:47:10 pm »
his life where he felt in control and sure of himself and, on a limited scale, successful.

Regarding some of the higher up posts...

Well yes, would Ennis have freaked out if Jack had offered him money, "now we are acting like husband and wife or something," just thinking outloud of how Ennis would have responded.  THere are alot of boundaries on this relationship... Ennis is self-reliant. Don't want no help.   

Ennis enjoyed his work he did at a ranch hand.  HOwever, his options as he gets owner to seek employment elsewhere seem to have closed. Towards the end of the film, he can't quit those jobs like he used to, hence the blowup about not being able to take time off at August and Jack would had to return in November. 

Afterall, you do get vacation time working at a powerplant.  Maybe 4 weeks leave after 20 years and you'd sure be more comfortable.   It's not like Jack was coming to visit Ennis more then two or three times a year.  Well, that's the impression I got.  Certainly a trip up to WY five or six times a year would have made Lureen suspicous or even worse, my husband is a bad employee, can't be around for the big sales on the farm equipment.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Jack and Ennis: ECONOMIC DIVIDE, HELPING HAND?
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2006, 08:20:28 pm »
Afterall, you do get vacation time working at a powerplant.  Maybe 4 weeks leave after 20 years and you'd sure be more comfortable.  It's not like Jack was coming to visit Ennis more then two or three times a year.  Well, that's the impression I got.  Certainly a trip up to WY five or six times a year would have made Lureen suspicous or even worse, my husband is a bad employee, can't be around for the big sales on the farm equipment.

You DO??!?!?   :o  Jeez, where I work, there are people who've been with the company 15 years and they STILL only get 2 weeks vacation a year!