What would it take to help Ennis be OK about himself?

[serious crayons]

I've been in debates about this on either side. On one end, there's a school of thought that says Ennis can't be freed of his homophobia; it's too ingrained. On the other end, people argue that Ennis should have realized that his homophobia was keeping him from happiness with Jack, and gotten over it.

Personally, I'm somewhere in between. People can free themselves of insecurities and prejudices instilled by their parents. But doing that usually means hearing from people with different views -- at college, for instance, or somewhere away from home. And they might get some therapy on top of that. Ennis had no opportunity for either. He couldn't talk to people, or read books, or join groups, or take classes, or hear ANYTHING that would tell him that his sexuality is OK and homophobia is wrong. As far as he knew, everyone in the world except maybe Jack agreed with his dad (and even Jack was slightly ambiguous on this issue). (And Ennis seeing a therapist?   I don't think so.) So he's stuck.

I think Mr. and Mrs. Twist were the first people Ennis knew who didn't appear homophobic. Seeing that may have helped him accept himself a bit more in the end, as it may have helped Jack be relatively comfortable with his own sexuality from the get-go.

What do you all think?

[Front-Ranger]

Maybe he was being on the way to okay at the end of the movie. Maybe he was at peace. I think it would take a transformative experience to put people like that on the path to okay-dom. And finding the shirts was certainly a transformative experience. It was an immensely redeeming and healing experience. Just climbing the stairs in that eerie light. Looking out at the road and the barn, and that star-shaped swathing machine in the barn. Being gazed upon by the madonna, Mrs. Twist. Standing up to the Jehovah-like judging old man. Being reduced to a paper bag container. Being at Lightning Flat and at the family plot. Being enveloped by the wind. Maybe, just maybe, he was there.

One thing that struck me as I saw the film in high-definition at the BBQ. Did you notice the blue light at the end? In between the window and the closet, there's a streak of blue light that I never noticed before. It made a big difference in my understanding of that scene.

[serious crayons]

I think it would take a transformative experience to put people like that on the path to okay-dom. And finding the shirts was certainly a transformative experience. It was an immensely redeeming and healing experience. Just climbing the stairs in that eerie light. Looking out at the road and the barn, and that star-shaped swathing machine in the barn. Being gazed upon by the madonna, Mrs. Twist. Standing up to the Jehovah-like judging old man. Being reduced to a paper bag container. Being at Lightning Flat and at the family plot. Being enveloped by the wind. Maybe, just maybe, he was there.

Good point and nicely put, FRiend!

[Brown Eyes]

You know I agree with what Lee says too.  I love the blue light observation!  Very profound detail and something I absolutely never noticed until it was pointed recently.

I think baby-step by baby-step Ennis was making progress and the argument by the lake maybe pushed Ennis to begin to be more honest with himself (i.e. all the possible implications of the pie scene and his decision to stop pretending to have a relationship with Cassie, at least).  And, yes, of course he changes a lot following Jack's death.

In terms of the things that help Ennis come to accept himself or at least come to terms with his very problematic internalized-homophobia (beyond Jack's consistent love for him over 20 difficult years) were his newfound mobility following Jack's death (at the very least he goes to Lightning Flat) and his exposure to new people (i.e. Mrs. Twist as Lee points out).  His lack of willingness to travel (only traveling around the coffeepot) while Jack was alive caused his view of the world to be extremely narrow.  He wasn't exposed to other more positive viewpoints beyond what he believed he perceived in his small society in Riverton and the traumatic childhood he had in Sage.  By meeting a person, such as Mrs. Twist, who treats him with kindness and compassion and seems to silently respect his relationship with Jack, Ennis begins to see that people aren't always going to have a knee-jerk negative reaction to him or his sexuality.  The implications of Old Man Twist's reaction to Ennis are clearly more complicated... and negative... and we know that it's been debated whether OMT's negativity was based on homophobia or something else.  But, the experience in Lightning Flat, I'm sure is meant to be a profoundly transformative moment for Ennis for the combined impact of the discovery of the shirts and the silent bond he strikes up with Mrs. Twist.

So, to answer the question posed by this thread, in general, I think increased mobility and increased experience of a broader range of people and social situations might have helped Ennis deal with the issue of homophobia (and in a hypothetical situation might have been able to help Ennis with this issue earlier in his life while Jack was alive too).

[ifyoucantfixit]

        I dont know if this is completely off topic, but have you ever wondered about the reason for old man Twists
horrible remark...He knew without doubt that it would cut Ennis  to the quick?  Do you think he was so disgusted by Jacks homosexuality, or so mad at Ennis for not moving up there, maybe blaming him for his sons death, as a result of his lack of movement to the ranch..that he wanted to hurt Ennis for allowing his son to die, even though he was always mean to Jack also..It has always been a tough one to figure out for me. The old mans motivation...
         At any rate I thought he may have moved Ennis one way or another, but i wasnt sure which way that might be.

[Jeff Wrangler]

        I dont know if this is completely off topic, but have you ever wondered about the reason for old man Twists
horrible remark...He knew without doubt that it would cut Ennis  to the quick?  Do you think he was so disgusted by Jacks homosexuality, or so mad at Ennis for not moving up there, maybe blaming him for his sons death, as a result of his lack of movement to the ranch..that he wanted to hurt Ennis for allowing his son to die, even though he was always mean to Jack also..It has always been a tough one to figure out for me. The old mans motivation...
         At any rate I thought he may have moved Ennis one way or another, but i wasnt sure which way that might be.

Homophobia. He knew very well that Ennis was his queer son's queer lover. In effect it's a verbal gay bashing. Hasn't got anything to do with being angry at Ennis for not moving to Lightning Flat with Jack, or blaming Ennis for Jack's death. As Annie Proulx says, Brokeback Mountain is a tale of the destructive effect of rural homophobia, and that's what we're seeing here.

[serious crayons]

  Here we go again, with a question that's almost up there with sorry/s'alright among BBM controversies.

OMT shows no unequivocal sign of homophobia. He's a mean old bastard for sure, and he knows about Jack and Ennis' involvement ("I know where Brokeback Mountain is"). But he doesn't say one thing he might not as easily say about heterosexual lovers.

In discussing his sons' plans to ditch his wife and child in order to live with another man, his chief complaint is that Jack never followed through. He could have used the help with the ranch.

Even by telling Ennis about the other fella, OMT is showing, in a weird backward way, an understanding and acceptance of their relationship. Again, he's treating them just as he would if a straight couple -- he knows Ennis will be cut to the quick -- and in so doing, he's normalizing their relationship, validating it (though not in a kind way, obviously).

The movie is about, in part, the idea that appearances can be deceiving. That's especially true when it comes to the dads. We're set up to think of Ennis' dad as a good guy ("My dad was a fine roper," "I think my dad was right"), but later learn he was a potentially murderous homophobe. On the other hand, we're told Jack's dad was a jerk ("Can't please my old man, no way," "never taught me a thing, never once came to see me ride") and in the context of this movie and the culture it portrays it's natural to assume that OMT is specifically a homophobic jerk. But surprise!! He's not. The two fathers, in a way, follow opposite trajectories of character development.

I also think it's important that nobody who knows about Jack and Ennis reacts in the way Ennis would expect and fear. Aguirre doesn't fire them. Alma keeps quiet for years. It's not that the movie is trying to show that cultural homophobia is all in Ennis' head -- Earl's murder is a powerful reminder of its very real threat -- but the movie wants to focus on the homophobia in Ennis head, to show how the destruction of rural homophobia affects not only lives but also souls.

I see Mr. Twist as a grieving father, albeit an obnoxious one. In denying Ennis the ashes he's saying that Ennis doesn't deserve them -- he let Jack down, wouldn't commit, wouldn't become part of the family. Jack's ashes are going in the family plot, because Ennis has not earned the right to take a role.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Jack's ashes are going in the family plot, because Ennis has not earned the right to take a role.

Jack's ashes are going in the family plot because it's the last act of control by the Stud Duck in the pond over the son he despised. Ennis's worth or right, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with it.

[Penthesilea]

I see Mr. Twist as a grieving father, albeit an obnoxious one. In denying Ennis the ashes he's saying that Ennis doesn't deserve them -- he let Jack down, wouldn't commit, wouldn't become part of the family. Jack's ashes are going in the family plot, because Ennis has not earned the right to take a role.

Jack's ashes are going in the family plot because it's the last act of control by the Stud Duck in the pond over the son he despised. Ennis's worth or right, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with it.

I think Jeff is at least partly right here:

"he thought he was too goddam special to be buried in the family plot."

and

"Tell you what, we got a family plot and he's goin in it."


Sounds pretty despiseful to me - of Jack, not despiseful of Ennis. Like Jeff, I think the refusal of the ashes was a final act of showing Jack (and Ennis, too - and even Mrs. Twist) who's the boss/stud duck. Not even in death, OMT could find something good to say about his son, nothing about Jack found his approval.


On the other side, I think Katherine is right in saying, OMT's main accuse is that Jack's plans "never came to pass". That he and Ennis did not lick the ranch in shape and help him. I think he would have been ok with the two living there. Therefore he can't be a total homophobe. I think he did not like that Jack (and Ennis) was/were queer, but he would have silently accepted it, in order to get help.

[serious crayons]

I think Jeff is at least partly right here:

"he thought he was too goddam special to be buried in the family plot."

and

"Tell you what, we got a family plot and he's goin in it."


Sounds pretty despiseful to me - of Jack, not despiseful of Ennis. Like Jeff, I think the refusal of the ashes was a final act of showing Jack (and Ennis, too - and even Mrs. Twist) who's the boss/stud duck. Not even in death, OMT could find something good to say about his son, nothing about Jack found his approval.

I can buy that. And it's in character, though it's still not homophobic.

Tell you what, I'm only half committed to the "he denies Ennis the ashes because Ennis couldn't commit" interpretation. But I think it's interesting, and possible. And he does look like a grieving father to me. Even mean old bastards can mourn dead sons.

On the other side, I think Katherine is right in saying, OMT's main accuse is that Jack's plans "never came to pass". That he and Ennis did not lick the ranch in shape and help him. I think he would have been ok with the two living there. Therefore he can't be a total homophobe. I think he did not like that Jack (and Ennis) was/were queer, but he would have silently accepted it, in order to get help.

Right. He probably wasn't running for president of the local chapter of PFLAG, but I think he tolerated their homosexuality. Imagine if he were homophobic, how differently he might have described Jack's plan. "Half-baked notion" is the only negative thing he says about it.

[loneleeb3]

Well, here I go. This thread hits real close to home for me.
I can relate to Ennis so Much because we are so alike in our understanding and acceptance of ourselves.
I agree with the train of thought that by the end Ennis was coming to grips with everything but didn't know what to do with it all. I still don't think he could think of himself as "queer" but knew he loved Jack and somehow in his mind had a different rationalization for their relationship.
I don't know if I am explaining this right. For me, it's somthing I have struggled with all my life. Only now am I just coming to be able to even go there. I think Ennis, like myself, had two selves. The Ennis that he was around Jack and the Ennis the rest of the world saw and never the twain shall meet. Towards the end I think they were coming together But I don't know that Ennis could ever see himself or accept himself as a homosexual.
Having a set of so called "values" drilled into your skull from a young age is somthing that becomes so ingrained it's hard to change. I'm not sure if he (or I) can /could ever completely shake it off.
In answer to the original question, I don't think Ennis could ever be completely ok with himself. I think he could and would have gotten better about it, but I don't think he'd ever be as comfortable in his own skin as Jack was.

As for OMT, he was a mean son of a whoreson bitch. He didn't accept Jack and he sure as hell didn't accept Ennis.
He was trying to hurt him by telling him about the "other guy".  I do agree that Mrs Twist Knew and loved Ennis because her son loved Ennis and Ennis loved Jack.

[Jeff Wrangler]

As for OMT, he was a mean son of a whoreson bitch. He didn't accept Jack and he sure as hell didn't accept Ennis.

Friend, thanks for that.

[serious crayons]

As for OMT, he was a mean son of a whoreson bitch. He didn't accept Jack and he sure as hell didn't accept Ennis.

Friend, thanks for that.

I agree with it, too! Yay!

 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Friend, thanks for that.

I agree with it, too! Yay!

 

Hunh? 

I don't understand how you can agree with that--the comment being that John Twist was "a mean son of a whoreson bitch" who "didn't accept Jack" and "sure as hell didn't accept Ennis"-- when you also say that John Twist showed "an acceptance and understanding of their relationship"? 

Actually, I just wish I could understand why you are so determined--or feel such a need?--to exonerate John Twist of homophobia. 

[Front-Ranger]

My feeling is that Old Man Twist is just about the most hate-filled man I've ever encountered. He's not only homophobic, he's humanophobic. He expresses his hate and wreaks damage in an indirect way. His words mean much more than they indicate on the surface. His first words are "I know where Brokeback Mountain is." The expression is filled with knowing and hate. He is even hateful to his wife who is a saint. I think he hates her BECAUSE she is so good. He despises her for staying with him through the years, because there is no one he hates more than himself. And he hates her because of her love of her only child.

When he leads Ennis through the review of Jack's life, he builds him up, and Ennis follows along with a little smile. And then he crushes him down. Old Man Twist knows that you can do so much more damage with a few well-chosen words than you could ever do with fists.

[serious crayons]

Actually, I just wish I could understand why you are so determined--or feel such a need?--to exonerate John Twist of homophobia. 

Well, what an odd way to put it, Jeff. Makes it sound like I like him and am advocating on his behalf to get him off the hook. I'm only advocating on behalf of the way I see the scene.

Maybe this will help clarify. You've seen Lee's post above. Now let me tell you that I agree with pretty much every single thing she wrote -- EXCEPT the part about John Twist being homophobic.

I'm just saying it's possible to be a mean, hate-filled son of a bitch -- without being homophobic.

Hunh? 

I don't understand how you can agree with that--the comment being that John Twist was "a mean son of a whoreson bitch" who "didn't accept Jack" and "sure as hell didn't accept Ennis"-- when you also say that John Twist showed "an acceptance and understanding of their relationship"? 

Again, I'm not trying to paint him as some kindly supportive dad. I totally agree that he didn't accept Jack -- just as lots of fathers don't accept their straight sons. And he didn't accept Ennis, just as lots of fathers don't accept their straight children's romantic partners.

What he did accept -- or at least seemed to understand, tolerate, voice no objections to -- was the idea that two men could have a long-term romantic relationship. And that it might even be OK for them to have it, even if it means breaking up a heterosexual marriage and family, as long as it gets the ranch licked into shape.

I'm not even trying to argue that he didn't have a homophobic bone in his body. Only that he didn't express any homophobia in that scene. I agree with Lee that his words mean much more than they indicate on the surface; I just don't think that's what they're indicating.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Well, what an odd way to put it, Jeff. Makes it sound like I like him and am advocating on his behalf to get him off the hook.

Well, I'm afraid that's what it sounded like to me--like you were trying to convince a jury.

I'm only advocating on behalf of the way I see the scene.

And how is this different from advocating that John Twist isn't homophobic?

Maybe this will help clarify. You've seen Lee's post above. Now let me tell you that I agree with pretty much every single thing she wrote -- EXCEPT the part about John Twist being homophobic.

I'm just saying it's possible to be a mean, hate-filled son of a bitch -- without being homophobic.

Well, sure--except that he is.

Again, I'm not trying to paint him as some kindly supportive dad. I totally agree that he didn't accept Jack -- just as lots of fathers don't accept their straight sons. And he didn't accept Ennis, just as lots of fathers don't accept their straight children's romantic partners.

What he did accept -- or at least seemed to understand, tolerate, voice no objections to -- was the idea that two men could have a long-term romantic relationship. And that it might even be OK for them to have it, even if it means breaking up a heterosexual marriage and family, as long as it gets the ranch licked into shape.

Gee, wouldn't I just love to watch if you were actually able to sit down with that old SOB and discuss that last paragraph. ... That a 60-something backwater Wyoming rancher nearly 30 years ago could be OK with two men having a long-term romantic relationship? I'm sorry, friend, but I grew up with relatives in my own family who were very like John Twist, and the very idea just beggars belief.

I'm not even trying to argue that he didn't have a homophobic bone in his body. Only that he didn't express any homophobia in that scene. I agree with Lee that his words mean much more than they indicate on the surface; I just don't think that's what they're indicating.

And that, unfortunately, is what I will never understand--how you can come away from that scene and not see the homophobia that is so blatant and obvious to others as to not even need discussing. 

[Clyde-B]

I'm not sure that OMT was all that homophobic.

Do you think Jack would have wanted to move back to Lightning Flat with a lover if he was?

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'm not sure that OMT was all that homophobic.

Do you think Jack would have wanted to move back to Lightning Flat with a lover if he was?

That suggests another question: Since Jack couldn't please his old man no how, why would he want to move back to Lightning Flat at all, with or without a lover?

If Jack's over-riding concern was to finally win his father's approval by licking the ranch into shape, perhaps he didn't even consider the implications of bringing a lover with him.

[Brown Eyes]

Hey Buds,

Well it seems that Old Man Twist is as controversial as ever!  Here's a link to an old thread here on Open Forum devoted to this as its very own topic (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1922.0.html).  Thanks for jumping in here Clyde-B, you make an interesting point.  I wonder if Jack might not have had any other clear plans as to how to start out on a life with Ennis.  Jack didn't really have any money of his own (it's hard to know whether we should believe that L.D. would ever give him money for leaving) and Ennis certainly didn't have any money.  So, my hunch is that Jack maybe thought that he and Ennis could go to Lightning Flat for a while and figure things out for themselves from there.  I doubt Jack would have wanted to stay there permanently.  But, there is that intriguing second building visible in some of the exterior shots of the Lightning Flat house.  It's truly a falling-down shack that's uninhabitable... and there's been a suggestion here and there that this desolate structure represents the life together that could-have-been but was passed by for Jack and Ennis.

....

Leaving OMT aside for the moment, what else about the visit to Lightning Flat might have caused Ennis to change his view of not only his relationship with Jack, but also his perception of himself?  Is there any other scene in the movie that has the equivalent force for Ennis regarding this issue of self-acceptance?

If we look back much earlier in the film, I think TS2 might be a very different but maybe equally powerful scene where Ennis learns to trust his instincts, feelings, desires, etc.  Ennis's active decision to leave the fireside and seek Jack out in the tent (this time Ennis is not cold and Jack is not calling out to him as was the case just prior to TS1) involved a lot of courage and self-awareness even this early on.  This is a moment when he does not allow his fear to direct his actions and overrides his fears in order to go to Jack.  And the fact that he was so warmly rewarded by Jack's acceptance, reassurance and sweetness probably would have gone a long way towards Ennis developing positive impressions about his sexuality.

[loneleeb3]

I'm not sure that OMT was all that homophobic.

Do you think Jack would have wanted to move back to Lightning Flat with a lover if he was?

I think it would have been the big F-YOU! To his old man!
After the things OMT did to him as a child this would be the best "I'll show you" ever!
Just my opinion. tell ya what though, I think OMT and Old Man DelMar would have been two peas in a pod cut from the same fabric. No offense to anyone but saying OMT was not homophobic is like saying the Pope isn't Catholic.

[Fran]

Good points, Lee.

Here's what I'm currently thinking (and I'm probably the minority opinion):

OMT would have accepted help from Jack and Ennis (or Randall) in whipping the ranch into shape.  That seems certain to me.  (But how OMT would have treated Ennis -- or Randall -- is a whole different story.)  Yes, OMT is homophobic, but perhaps not hopelessly so.

I think that OMT was in a bind.  He couldn't get any help for his ranch by his own means.  Jack comes by a few times a year to help out, but it's not enough. In order for OMT to have Jack's help on a day-to-day basis, he'd have to accept Jack and whomever.  Jack wasn't coming back to Lightning Flat alone.  He was bringing someone.  That was the only way he'd come back.  It's sort of like Jack made OMT an offer he couldn't refuse, though he probably wanted to. 

I'm sort of thinking that if Jack really wanted to stick it to OMT, he would have just shown up with Ennis or Randall.  Instead, he's talking about it with OMT.  And it's not like OMT is telling Jack, "Yeah, you'll bring this Ennis del Mar here over my dead body, no way in hell"; rather, OMT is hearing Jack.  And when Jack finally accepts the fact that Ennis probably won't ever agree to the "sweet life," he starts thinking about Randall, and Randall's the person he's talking about to OMT.  It's another discussion.  The dialogue was ongoing, and although OMT probably didn't like what he was hearing, he had to accept it.

If this makes any sense at all, I think that there was at least a glimmer of hope that OMT would have been able to accept the idea of Jack and Ennis (or Randall), at least a little, but it wouldn't have been easy for him, and it would have been a gradual acceptance out of necessity.

[serious crayons]

Well, I'm afraid that's what it sounded like to me--like you were trying to convince a jury.

Well, I suppose I do have a way of debating forcefully. But I hardly think I'm the only one here who debates forcefully, Jeff,  . Ahem.

If I sound like I'm making a closing argument to a jury, it may be because a) I have a lot of reasons for believing what I believe, and I want to give them all their day in the sun and b) I realize my contention goes against a lot of people's assumptions. Hell, it goes against what were MY assumptions for months and months after first seeing the movie. One night, writing a post here, I was discussing how homophobic OMT is, when suddenly I realized -- wait a minute, he's not all that homophobic. Then I thought about it some more and realized -- wait, he doesn't exhibit any overt unequivocal homophobia AT ALL. Isn't that interesting!

And how is this different from advocating that John Twist isn't homophobic?

It's not, when you put it that way. But when you put it as "you ... feel such a need ... to exonerate him" it somehow sounds somehow more, um ... personal or sump'n. Remember, I DON'T LIKE Mr. Twist. I have a need to exonerate him like I have a need for an opinion on "s'alright" vs. "sorry" -- I'm interested, but fairly neutral.

Well, sure--except that he is.

OK, Jeff ...  So you believe he is! That's fine. You go right ahead. I guess I could turn it around and say, "Why do you feel such a need to prove that he's homophobic"?

That a 60-something backwater Wyoming rancher nearly 30 years ago could be OK with two men having a long-term romantic relationship? I'm sorry, friend, but I grew up with relatives in my own family who were very like John Twist, and the very idea just beggars belief.

Hey, don't be sorry, Bud! I realize this interpretation doesn't fit what we think we already know about the culture. That's why it's interesting. Sounds like you're interpreting the movie based on assumptions you had walking into the theater. That's what the movie is trying to get viewers NOT to do. It wants us to toss away whatever stereotypes we might have. Macho cowboys can be gay, not all SOBs are homophobes.

Friend, my favorite aunt and her lesbian partner will be celebrating their mutual 80th birthdays this August with a  big cocktail party in their small Iowa farm town (population 3,900). They they moved there after retiring, after having lived together for 30+ years. In addition to my relatives (mostly from Iowa, many from small towns), I'm expecting to see lots of locals there -- my aunt, a stranger in the town when she arrived, shortly thereafter ran for mayor (against the incumbent, I always have to add!  ) and served several terms. She is brilliant and irreverent and funny as hell and not at all what you might picture when you hear the phrase, "my 80-year-old aunt." And the behavior of the townsfolk beggars MY belief about the way elderly backwater Midwesterners behave.

People surprise you sometimes, thank God.

And that, unfortunately, is what I will never understand--how you can come away from that scene nd not see the homophobia that is so blatant and obvious to others as to not even need discussing. 

Tell you what, not all "others" interpret the scene that way. I've talked to at least a handful of Brokies who agree with me. But yes, I realize the majority of viewers are predisposed to find homophobia in the scene, so to many people, it's "blatant and obvious."

How about this: What exactly does John Twist say or do that couldn't just as easily have been said or done by a mean old son-of-a-bitch father to a resented heterosexual son?

Instead, he's talking about it with OMT.  And it's not like OMT is telling Jack, "Yeah, you'll bring this Ennis del Mar here over my dead body, no way in hell"; rather, OMT is hearing Jack.  And when Jack finally accepts the fact that Ennis probably won't ever agree to the "sweet life," he starts thinking about Randall, and Randall's the person he's talking about to OMT.  It's another discussion.  The dialogue was ongoing, and although OMT probably didn't like what he was hearing, he had to accept it.

Fran, you make a good point. OMT ran Jack off. Yet Jack kept returning. And when he returned, did Jack try to hide his homosexuality to get along with Daddy? Hell no, he talked to his dad about his plans to ditch his wife and live with a man. Was his dad's reaction so awful that Jack never went back to the ranch, let alone mention his plan again? No! Jack kept going back, kept mentioning the plan. When it became clear that Ennis wasn't going to go for the sweet life, THEN did Jack shut up about it? No!!!! He simply told his dad he had another fella in mind. Now why would he do any of those things if his dad was virulently homophobic? Why would OMT listen?!

For that matter, if his OMT were a raging homophobe, why on earth would Jack even think for a second of bringing Ennis or Randall or anyone up to the ranch in the first place, subjecting them to what would surely be a hellish existence of conflict and disapproval? Doesn't sound like a very sweet life. Yet somehow, Jack thought it would work ... 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Well, I suppose I do have a way of debating forcefully. But I hardly think I'm the only one here who debates forcefully, Jeff,  . Ahem.

If I sound like I'm making a closing argument to a jury, it may be because a) I have a lot of reasons for believing what I believe, and I want to give them all their day in the sun and b) I realize my contention goes against a lot of people's assumptions. Hell, it goes against what were MY assumptions for months and months after first seeing the movie. One night, writing a post here, I was discussing how homophobic OMT is, when suddenly I realized -- wait a minute, he's not all that homophobic. Then I thought about it some more and realized -- wait, he doesn't exhibit any overt unequivocal homophobia AT ALL. Isn't that interesting!

You missed your calling. Shoulda been a lawyer. ... (That's actually s'posed to be a compliment.)

OK, Jeff ...  So you believe he is! That's fine. You go right ahead. I guess I could turn it around and say, "Why do you feel such a need to prove that he's homophobic"?

I don't feel a need to prove it because it's so clearly apparent in Peter McRobbie's performance. Forgive me if I've missed something in your argument, but my impression is that your argument rests on the bare bones of dialogue alone without also taking into account delivery, little gestures like spitting into the cup, milieu--that sort of stuff.

Hey, don't be sorry, Bud! I realize this interpretation doesn't fit what we think we already know about the culture. That's why it's interesting. Sounds like you're interpreting the movie based on assumptions you had walking into the theater. That's what the movie is trying to get viewers NOT to do.

Yes, with respect to homosexuals, not with respect to homophobes.

Friend, my favorite aunt and her lesbian partner will be celebrating their mutual 80th birthdays this August with a  big cocktail party in their small Iowa farm town (population 3,900). They they moved there after retiring, after having lived together for 30+ years. In addition to my relatives (mostly from Iowa, many from small towns), I'm expecting to see lots of locals there -- my aunt, a stranger in the town when she arrived, shortly thereafter ran for mayor (against the incumbent, I always have to add!  ) and served several terms. She is brilliant and irreverent and funny as hell and not at all what you might picture when you hear the phrase, "my 80-year-old aunt." And the behavior of the townsfolk beggars MY belief about the way elderly backwater Midwesterners behave.

I'm very happy for your aunt and her partner--wish 'em a Happy Birthday and offer 'em a shot of whiskey for me!--but for me your description of their experience, rather than lending credence to your argument, instead suggests a whole slew of questions on its own (relative to the experience/perception of lesbians compared to the experience/perception of gay men) that go far beyond the purview of this thread, and I wonder whether their experience--not to discount it in the least--bears any more than a superficial relevance to Brokeback Mountain.

Tell you what, not all "others" interpret the scene that way. I've talked to at least a handful of Brokies who agree with me. But yes, I realize the majority of viewers are predisposed to find homophobia in the scene, so to many people, it's "blatant and obvious."

Note that I was careful not to qualify that "others" with an adjective. I just left it at "others."

How about this: What exactly does John Twist say or do that couldn't just as easily have been said or done by a mean old son-of-a-bitch father to a resented heterosexual son?

Probably nothing, but how does that prove he isn't homophobic?

For that matter, if his OMT were a raging homophobe, why on earth would Jack even think for a second of bringing Ennis or Randall or anyone up to the ranch in the first place, subjecting them to what would surely be a hellish existence of conflict and disapproval? Doesn't sound like a very sweet life. Yet somehow, Jack thought it would work ... 

I suggested last night that perhaps Jack hadn't really thought through the implications of what he was dreaming about.

Possible, too, that if Jack had ever brought those plans to fruition, that John Twist would have put up with the situation out of self-interest (getting his property improved)--which I distinguish from actually accepting the situation. He might have willfully told himself that Ennis and Jack in that cabin were no different than any two hands in a bunkhouse and simply willed himself not to think about what might be going on in that cabin at night. Maybe his views would have softened in time.

Let's not forget, too, that John Twist wasn't the only one waiting for Jack back on the home place. His dear mother was there, too.

[loneleeb3]

Possible, too, that if Jack had ever brought those plans to fruition, that John Twist would have put up with the situation out of self-interest (getting his property improved)--which I distinguish from actually accepting the situation. He might have willfully told himself that Ennis and Jack in that cabin were no different than any two hands in a bunkhouse and simply willed himself not to think about what might be going on in that cabin at night. Maybe his views would have softened in time.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one!
However, I don't think he would have softned with time.
The only time that man will ever soften is when he's been in the ground a few days!

[Clyde-B]

I guess what I think of John Twist depends on my assumptions about how he go to be such an SOB.

I always suspected that he hated Jack's dreaming because he had once been a dreamer himself, and life had hammered him so hard that there was no hope left in him and he was actually afraid to dream anymore.  Lightning Flat looks like a place so desolate that it could just suck the life right out of you.  I wonder why such a sweet woman as Jack's mother ever married him.  Was it her only choice, or had things at one time been different?

The one thing I liked about Lightning Flat, that Ennis never knew, was that it looked almost as remote and uncivilized as Brokeback, and maybe they would have actually have had a chance there.

[loneleeb3]

and maybe they would have actually have had a chance there.

Dang it Clyde! There go the tears again!
What a thought! More missed opportunity.

[serious crayons]

You missed your calling. Shoulda been a lawyer. ... (That's actually s'posed to be a compliment.)

S'alright, Jeff! My dad always used to say the same thing ... 

Forgive me if I've missed something in your argument, but my impression is that your argument rests on the bare bones of dialogue alone without also taking into account delivery, little gestures like spitting into the cup, milieu--that sort of stuff.

Oh, then you have missed something in my argument. For instance, his appearance to me as a genuine grieving father (if also a mean one) rests on performance, not dialogue. Again, gestures like spitting in a cup indicate disdain, which I do not claim he lacks.

I'm very happy for your aunt and her partner--wish 'em a Happy Birthday and offer 'em a shot of whiskey for me!-

Thanks. With them, it will be a martini -- and God help you if you want vermouth in yours! 

-but for me your description of their experience, rather than lending credence to your argument, instead suggests a whole slew of questions on its own (relative to the experience/perception of lesbians compared to the experience/perception of gay men) that go far beyond the purview of this thread, and I wonder whether their experience--not to discount it in the least--bears any more than a superficial relevance to Brokeback Mountain.

Yes, we could have (and have had!) a whole 'nother discussion about experience/perception of lesbians vs. that of gay men. I'm not meaning to draw an exact parallel. My only point was that people can surprise you, that our assumptions about rural Middle-American backwaters don't always hold true. Sure, lesbians might find easier acceptance (if that's what you're suggesting), but the fact that, as far as I know, my aunt and her partner have enjoyed more or less total acceptance is what pleases me.

Probably nothing, but how does that prove he isn't homophobic?

Well, at the very least it shows that if he IS homophobic he's at least discrete or tactful or something, to go through that whole speech without one mention of sexuality. My point, though, was that the scene is more ambiguous than you're giving it credit for.

Possible, too, that if Jack had ever brought those plans to fruition, that John Twist would have put up with the situation out of self-interest (getting his property improved)--which I distinguish from actually accepting the situation.

Well, that seems a mite closer to my version than your earlier use of the term "verbal gay bashing." I can probably put up with "put up with." Again, I'm certainly not suggesting he would have given the heartwarming keynote toast at Jack and Ennis' wedding.

Let's not forget, too, that John Twist wasn't the only one waiting for Jack back on the home place. His dear mother was there, too.

Oh, I'd never forget that!    But it's the stud duck who calls the shots.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Thanks. With them, it will be a martini -- and God help you if you want vermouth in yours! 

"Very dry," hunh? 

Well, that seems a mite closer to my version than your earlier use of the term "verbal gay bashing." I can probably put up with "put up with." Again, I'm certainly not suggesting he would have given the heartwarming keynote toast at Jack and Ennis' wedding.

Wasn't intended to be. I'm not backing away from the "verbal gay bashing" I think he gives Ennis. Just that I also see him as potentially willfully turning a blind eye and putting up with it out of self-interest. Who knows but what maybe his attitude would have given a bit if Jack's verbal musings had come to pass. But they didn't and I'm not backing off a bit from how I see John Twist in "what actually happened."

I don't see a bit of grief in John Twist. Just bitterness. And that's bitterness generally, not specifically over Jack's death.

Oh, I'd never forget that!    But it's the stud duck who calls the shots.


[/quote]

[loneleeb3]

I don't see a bit of grief in John Twist. Just bitterness. And that's bitterness generally, not specifically over Jack's death.

Amen!
He's mad he lost his sometimes ranch hand!
You can tell Mrs Twist is heartbroken but not allowed to grieve.
SHe is very careful about what she says. Her eyes seem to be always watching OMT to see if she has done or said somthing wrong!
She musta had a strong influence over jack at one time. He sure as hell didn't get his kindness and easy ways from his father!

[serious crayons]

Wasn't intended to be. I'm not backing away from the "verbal gay bashing" I think he gives Ennis. Just that I also see him as potentially willfully turning a blind eye and putting up with it out of self-interest. Who knows but what maybe his attitude would have given a bit if Jack's verbal musings had come to pass. But they didn't and I'm not backing off a bit from how I see John Twist in "what actually happened."

Oh well.  I thought I'd seen an opening for a tiny détente. Guess not. 

But really, that's OK. Sounds like we're both pretty satisfied with our own interpretations. And one of BBM's best qualities is its ability to support, even encourage, varied interpretations -- there's a thousand of 'em. 

[Clyde-B]

  Her eyes seem to be always watching OMT to see if she has done or said something wrong!

I don't think she's worried for herself.  She's lived with OMT for what, 40 years? 

I think she worried about what OMT might try to do to Ennis or what Ennis might do to him if they got into it.

If you look real close at the expression on her face when she says "You come back and see us again."
(It's right after OMT has said the ashes are going in the family plot)  It's almost as if she's telling Ennis she'll have something more for him when he does (maybe the ashes?)

[Jeff Wrangler]

I guess what I think of John Twist depends on my assumptions about how he go to be such an SOB.

I always suspected that he hated Jack's dreaming because he had once been a dreamer himself, and life had hammered him so hard that there was no hope left in him and he was actually afraid to dream anymore.  Lightning Flat looks like a place so desolate that it could just suck the life right out of you.  I wonder why such a sweet woman as Jack's mother ever married him.  Was it her only choice, or had things at one time been different?

The one thing I liked about Lightning Flat, that Ennis never knew, was that it looked almost as remote and uncivilized as Brokeback, and maybe they would have actually have had a chance there.

How did I miss this commentary before, Clyde-B? That's very poignant and thoughtful. It's certainly true, we don't know how John Twist got to be the person we see--and I'd never really given it any thought.

I have wondered about Jack's mother. She and John Twist seem so ... mismatched. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

If you look real close at the expression on her face when she says "You come back and see us again."
(It's right after OMT has said the ashes are going in the family plot)  It's almost as if she's telling Ennis she'll have something more for him when he does (maybe the ashes?)

I've thought that it almost looks as though she's begging Ennis to come back. 

[serious crayons]

I've thought that it almost looks as though she's begging Ennis to come back. 

Me, too. As much for her own sake as Ennis'.

[loneleeb3]

Me, too. As much for her own sake as Ennis'.

I agree with that. Can you  imagine how lonely she must be.
No one else but that mean ole SOAWB???
I think she would want to talk about Jack and hear Ennis' stories about the good times they had.
I doubt OMT even lets her mention his name.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Me, too. As much for her own sake as Ennis'.

Absolutely. She loved her son, and she knows how much Ennis meant to Jack. She has nobody to share that with. 

[Clyde-B]

I doubt OMT even lets her mention his name.

I wonder if she calls him OMT!   

[loneleeb3]

I wonder if she calls him OMT!   

LOL! I'm sure she has some other names she calls him.

[serious crayons]

LOL! I'm sure she has some other names she calls him.

Maybe that's where Jack first heard SOAWB! 

[Penthesilea]

I wonder if she calls him OMT!   

I always felt we should change that abbreviation to MOMT, MeanOldManTwist

[Fran]

I always felt we should change that abbreviation to MOMT, MeanOldManTwist

Well, we can probably come up with a more descriptive word than "Mean."  But "Mean" is moving in the right direction. 

FOMT?

[malina]

ohhh... what a great thread. Reminds me of what it used to be like on IMDB in the good old days...

now... about OMT... Well, essentially, I agree with Katherine on that one. I certainly don't like OMT or want to exonerate him of being... well, a prick... and that hawking-in-the-coffee-cup thing alone, besides being ...well, gross.... is sort of a shorthand for disdain and dismissiveness and contempt, BUT... no, we don't see any overt signs of homophobia from him. And we do see signs to the contrary.. besides the fact that Jack wanted to bring Ennis there, and OMT would have allowed or even wanted that to happen... well, that may be self-serving, but it doesn't seem homophobic.

Even more telling, possibly, is Jack himself. Unlike Ennis, Jack IS pretty much okay about himself - about his homosexuality - even to the point of truly believing that the 'sweet life' was possible for them - even to the point of being able to look Aguirre in the eye when he says his bit about their 'stemming the rose'. Jack is okay about himself... more or less... despite the society he lives in ... and that in itself is odd enough that we have to ask WHY?

Considering that quality in Jack always makes me think about the Fisher King/ Parceval legend. Basically, Parceval heals the Fisher King, who had been suffering from a 'wound that never heals'... oh, there are a lot of associations there but OT for this thread... and he is able to do so because... he is innocent and sort of "not of this world". He was raised by his mother away from society, away from community... so he is like a breath of fresh air, and can see things differently and do what no one else could.

And I think Jack is a bit like that. And I had always assumed it was because, like Parceval, he was raised by his mother away from society.. and his mother seems loving and accepting. BUT, with a homophobic father, what chance would Jack have had, of being accepting of himself?

so... what's that expression? The proof of the pudding is in the ... um... anyway, maybe the proof of OMT's relative freedom from homophobia is in the way his son turned out. Not just gay, I mean, but.. able to be accepting. But that certainly doesn't mean OMT wasn't a prick in other ways or that he and Jack had a good relationship.

I also think that we see so relatively little of OMT, that it's like shorthand.. or speed reading. We are meant to fill in the blanks, and it's easy enough to fill them in with what we know of the society, and see him as homophobic. But, considering what and whom we DO know - Jack - maybe it's possible to fill in those blanks differently.

There's so much more here that's interesting, though... you know, lately, I can't stop thinking about 'the sweet life', and what that actually meant. The long and the short of it, I think, is that the 'sweet life' in a broader sense is a life lived without fear - or, at least, without decisions that are based on fear. And, this is very simplistic, but I think that's related to why Ennis wasn't okay about himself. He made and lived with decisions that were based on fear. I know that's more an effect than a cause of what ailed him, but, maybe it works both ways. Maybe both kinds of living are self-perpetuating.

But what about Jack? He wants the sweet life... he can see it in front of him... but I can't help thinking that his acceptance... his okay-ness with himself, his ability to live without fear.. those things erode and diminish over time. And most of Jack's ideas never come to pass. And OMT seems disappointed. dismissive? disparaging? disappointed.

[Penthesilea]

ohhh... what a great thread. Reminds me of what it used to be like on IMDB in the good old days...

now... about OMT... Well, essentially, I agree with Katherine on that one. I certainly don't like OMT or want to exonerate him of being... well, a prick... and that hawking-in-the-coffee-cup thing alone, besides being ...well, gross.... is sort of a shorthand for disdain and dismissiveness and contempt, BUT... no, we don't see any overt signs of homophobia from him. And we do see signs to the contrary.. besides the fact that Jack wanted to bring Ennis there, and OMT would have allowed or even wanted that to happen... well, that may be self-serving, but it doesn't seem homophobic.

I agree with you and Katherine about OMT not being outright homophoboc. And I think Katherine has a very good point in saying that it's at least intersting, that Ang Lee doesn't show him homophobic. Believing Lee did everything in his movie for a reason, I find this fact not only intersting, but very telling.

Even more telling, possibly, is Jack himself. Unlike Ennis, Jack IS pretty much okay about himself - about his homosexuality - even to the point of truly believing that the 'sweet life' was possible for them - even to the point of being able to look Aguirre in the eye when he says his bit about their 'stemming the rose'. Jack is okay about himself... more or less... despite the society he lives in ... and that in itself is odd enough that we have to ask WHY?

Of course we ask why. How is it possible that Jack escaped from a lonley childhood with an abusive parent he could never please and being okay? It's not only odd that Jack is relatively okay about his sexuality, but it is almost a miracle that he has any self-esteem at all. Let alone that he is such an optimistic, loving and open man as he is.

Of course Mrs. Twist must have played an important role in this. But: when Jack's immanent nature/given character and the support of his mom were enough to get him through a horrible childhood and let him turn out okay, couldn't it be that the same facts (Jack's character and his mom) were enough to make him be okay with his sexuality even if OMT were a homphobe?

I think yes, and therefore I think that Jack being okay with his homosexuality is not a proof for OMT being not homophobic.

[serious crayons]

Malina, it is so great to have you posting here! And not just when you say things like

essentially, I agree with Katherine on that one.

but especially when you write things like

Considering that quality in Jack always makes me think about the Fisher King/ Parceval legend. Basically, Parceval heals the Fisher King, who had been suffering from a 'wound that never heals'... oh, there are a lot of associations there but OT for this thread... and he is able to do so because... he is innocent and sort of "not of this world". He was raised by his mother away from society, away from community... so he is like a breath of fresh air, and can see things differently and do what no one else could.

I would love to have people here see your "phallic Jungian tangle" thread. I could post a link to it (in fact, I may have done so back when it first appeared!?) but maybe I'll ask TOoP/Bruce if he could repost it, if that's OK with you?

[malina]

Hi Katherine!

Yes, it would be fine with me if TOoP/Bruce has that thread and reposted it... I would be honored, actually.... I'd do it myself but I don't have it saved.

You know, I haven't thought about it lately, but every time I think about the Fisher King legend - which I have CaseyCornelius to thank for, as he was the one who brought it up in response to the Jungian stuff - every time I think of it, I get fascinated all anew. And, you know... I feel like I really in some ways came to terms with what Ennis was all about, sometime last fall... well, I'm sure there's a lot more I haven't thought of, but what I mean is that I was so .. engaged.. with Ennis, for so long, and that felt like one 'stage' of the BBM experience, and right now I am fascinated by Jack. There's so much about him that encourages the simple observation of how wonderful he was. That's one layer. But what ELSE is there? On one of my threads on IMDB someone commented that, whereas Brokeback was Ennis's "domaine" or "wormhole" - a place beyond your regular reality which, having experienced it, you keep wanting to get back into - kind of like BBM for many of us! - if Brokeback was Ennis's "wormhole", Jack's was Ennis. And somehow I didn't like hearing that. I wanted Jack to be perfect, I guess, and needing a 'wormhole' to escape into is... well, really a type of addictiveness, which we know he had as well. So... what made Jack tick? What was Jack all about... and is there a message in his deficiencies and in the miraculous - there's no other word for it - role he was nevertheless able to play in Ennis's life? Can we be each other's angels even while being all too human?

BUT... I badly digress...

Hi, Penthesilea - nice to know ya!

I agree with you and Katherine about OMT not being outright homophoboc. And I think Katherine has a very good point in saying that it's at least intersting, that Ang Lee doesn't show him homophobic. Believing Lee did everything in his movie for a reason, I find this fact not only intersting, but very telling.

Of course we ask why. How is it possible that Jack escaped from a lonley childhood with an abusive parent he could never please and being okay? It's not only odd that Jack is relatively okay about his sexuality, but it is almost a miracle that he has any self-esteem at all. Let alone that he is such an optimistic, loving and open man as he is.

Of course Mrs. Twist must have played an important role in this. But: when Jack's immanent nature/given character and the support of his mom were enough to get him through a horrible childhood and let him turn out okay, couldn't it be that the same facts (Jack's character and his mom) were enough to make him be okay with his sexuality even if OMT were a homphobe?

I think yes, and therefore I think that Jack being okay with his homosexuality is not a proof for OMT being not homophobic.

I think you may have a point. I have heard it said that all children really need is ONE person who is truly crazy about them and gives them unconditional love... and there is, also, sort of an innocent quality to the young Jack.. he almost seems to be able to ... well, I don't know, there's a part of him that passes unscathed through his circumstances. I fully believe that his mother had a greater influence on him than his father did. And we really have so little that's concrete to go on, with regard to OMT and whether he was homophobic...so, no, the way Jack turned out wasn't proof, I guess, but maybe a hint... but..

Well, they lived in such an isolated place. Away from society. They were like Ennis, in a way, maybe... never traveling, I mean... not even to come to their own son's funeral. They'd be in Lightening Flat till the day they die... AWAY from everything and everyone else... doesn't that make them misfits, in a way? And as misfits, as people 'apart', would we expect them to have the same attitudes as the larger society - especially when there's some evidence (Jack's comfort with his sexuality) that they in fact didn't?

By the time Jack meets Ennis, he has been out in the world a little, and he knows enough to have put a tiny facade of caution over his sexuality... but underneath that, he seems... innocent. Innocent of the idea that it would "really" not be okay... of course, I think he gets less innocent of that as his life progresses. But still... would he have that innocence at the age of 19 if one of the two main figures in his life up to that point - remember, cut off from society, so they would loom large - if one of those main figures was truly homophobic? I don't know... maybe he still would have... I admit it's possible, because Jack was special... but the likelihood... coupled with the fact that he wanted to bring his male lover to his "daddy's place" to live... well, the long and short of it is, I would rather condemn OMT for being terminally unpleasant and a disgusting coffee-cup-hawker (sooo gross!) than a homophobe, because I'm not at all sure that he was.

Jack's innocence... that made me think of a quote: "An innocent heart is the true wilderness".

[LauraGigs]

Oh gosh—just caught up with this whole thread (hate to be posting such simple initial impressions after all yall's brilliance, but here goes). As for Katherine's original question:

What's striking to me is that after Jack's death, Ennis essentially comes out.   Not to society as a whole (not that he talks to anyone on the street anyway), but to the very people who would be the most affected by his relationship with Jack (and therefore potentially the most vindictive): Jack's wife and parents.

When Lureen is obviously perplexed about Brokeback Mountain, he comes right out and tells her about it (knowing that she'll put 2+2 together: Jack wanting his ashes in the place he worked with Ennis = Jack loved Ennis. And Ennis' calling = He loved Jack ).

Visiting the Twists? Same thing.  Ennis had to figure the Twists knew about Jack's persuasion. (With what Ennis' dad may have suspected about him, plus the fact that subtlety wasn't Jack's strong point.)  He knew that 1) showing up there as a lone male guest  2) saying what Jack meant to him and 3) offering to scatter the ashes where they'd spent the summer together would be tantamount to a giveaway.  Does this deter Ennis?

Anyway, that's my answer to the question: it took Jack's death. Ennis had nothing left to lose.


Some may argue that this coming-out may not completely equal self-acceptance. Maybe — but compared to where he'd been (afraid to even be seen talking in his driveway with Jack), it was a hellava transformation.

[Penthesilea]

Hi, Penthesilea - nice to know ya!

I think you may have a point. I have heard it said that all children really need is ONE person who is truly crazy about them and gives them unconditional love... and there is, also, sort of an innocent quality to the young Jack.. he almost seems to be able to ... well, I don't know, there's a part of him that passes unscathed through his circumstances. I fully believe that his mother had a greater influence on him than his father did. And we really have so little that's concrete to go on, with regard to OMT and whether he was homophobic...so, no, the way Jack turned out wasn't proof, I guess, but maybe a hint... but..

Well, they lived in such an isolated place. Away from society. They were like Ennis, in a way, maybe... never traveling, I mean... not even to come to their own son's funeral. They'd be in Lightening Flat till the day they die... AWAY from everything and everyone else... doesn't that make them misfits, in a way? And as misfits, as people 'apart', would we expect them to have the same attitudes as the larger society - especially when there's some evidence (Jack's comfort with his sexuality) that they in fact didn't?

By the time Jack meets Ennis, he has been out in the world a little, and he knows enough to have put a tiny facade of caution over his sexuality... but underneath that, he seems... innocent. Innocent of the idea that it would "really" not be okay... of course, I think he gets less innocent of that as his life progresses. But still... would he have that innocence at the age of 19 if one of the two main figures in his life up to that point - remember, cut off from society, so they would loom large - if one of those main figures was truly homophobic? I don't know... maybe he still would have... I admit it's possible, because Jack was special... but the likelihood... coupled with the fact that he wanted to bring his male lover to his "daddy's place" to live... well, the long and short of it is, I would rather condemn OMT for being terminally unpleasant and a disgusting coffee-cup-hawker (sooo gross!) than a homophobe, because I'm not at all sure that he was.

Jack's innocence... that made me think of a quote: "An innocent heart is the true wilderness".

Hi Malina, welcome to BetterMost (where were my manners yesterday?)! I'm sure you already had a cup of coffe but couldn't eat no cherry cake right now  . So grab the whiskey and stick with us  .

Telly ya what... I was more or less playing advocatus diaboli here, because for logical reasons I don't see it as proof, but of course it's a hint.

And I totally agree that Jack wanting to bring Ennis to his parent's farm is a strong indicator for OMT not being a decided homophobe.


I just watched the scene again, with full attention to OMT. I see a lot of disdain, yet not because Jack was gay, but because "he thought he was too goddamn special", because Jack had high hopes, he had essorant dreams. Additionally comes the fact that they "never came to pass".
But in the essence, I think OMT resented Jack that he didn't knuckle down , that OMT could not break his spirit.
Which of course leads to OMT's motivations. I could imagine that he himself had been a spirited and ambitious young man once (after all, he had been a bull-rider!), with high hopes, but got broken by life early and well. Whayt remains after 70 or so years is a bitter and mean misanthrope.

But I also digress badly ......

[Rayn]

Well, it took the loss of Jack to begin a break through the defensive fortress he lives in, so I would say, lots of therapy would help Ennis, but can you imagine Ennis in therapy!    Nope, neither can I.

[Brown Eyes]

I just re-discovered this cool thread after noticing a guest viewing it via the "who's online" function.

This really is a great topic!

So, bump!

[Monika]

I watched the movie again today and it struck me how much of a Grecian tragedy it is.

Both men are so clearly a product of the land and of their upbringing, so you can say that they are screwed from the get-go. What ensues is destined to happen. I truley don´t believe there´s anything Ennis could have done differently, because it´s simply not in him. He doesn´t have it in him to break free, and neither is it in Jack to stop looking for love in all the wrong places. They are who they are and once they meet, their tragic destinies are sealed


*curtain drops*

[loneleeb3]

They are who they are and once they meet, their tragic destinies are sealed

Boy you can say that twice and mean it!
That about sums it up! 

[Brown Eyes]

I watched the movie again today and it struck me how much of a Grecian tragedy it is.

Both men are so clearly a product of the land and of their upbringing, so you can say that they are screwed from the get-go. What ensues is destined to happen. I truley don´t believe there´s anything Ennis could have done differently, because it´s simply not in him. He doesn´t have it in him to break free, and neither is it in Jack to stop looking for love in all the wrong places. They are who they are and once they meet, their tragic destinies are sealed


*curtain drops*

It is a Classical tragedy!!! Awwww... this comment made me so nostalgic for the ancient old read on imdb by Casey Cornelius about the Classical references in the Lightning Flat scene especially.  Thankfully, Bruce archived the thread here in the IMDb Remarkable Writings subforum.  For anyone who hasn't read this before... it's a true Brokie classic at this point.  Here's the first and most significant post from that old thread... and the link to the archived thread to see more of the discussion that followed from this.  Really brilliant.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,10587.0.html

Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS    
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:03:06 )   

UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 13:32:50
Brokeback Mountain is becoming an emotional touchstone and a singular experience for practically everyone who sees it. Its depth of expression, detail, and ability to inculcate itself into the unconsciousness of almost everyone who experiences it gives the film the distinction of a truly innovative art work which taps something powerful and myth-based.



SPOILERS

Having seen the film three times, each time more overwhelmed by its brilliance on every level, I've been especially struck by Ennis's visit to Jack's family home in Lightning Flat to retrieve Jack's ashes with the intent to scatter them on Brokeback. Ang Lee's choice of set-design, framing of the action, blocking of the actors, line readings and lighting all make this eerie, stark sequence visually distinct from anything else in the film. It is all redolent of Classical myth and tragedy. Knowing that Ang Lee's background is in theater, it's not far-fetched to assume this is pointedly intentional. It was driving me crazy trying to identify a specific Classical reference until the following struck me.
I've been riffing intensely on this scene and the following may be an interpretive 'stretch', conflating a number of mythic references, but bear with me.

It seems to me to most clearly echo Virgil's "The Aeneid" and the portion in Book VI where Aeneas descends to Hades. Ennis [= Aeneas?] undertakes a 'labor' much as Aeneas in descending to Hades/Hell to recover the ashes of his Beloved Jack and release his spirit from Tartarus where the Sons of Men are imprisoned.

The interior of Jack's family home is like a sepulchre - white-washed, bare, spare, bereft of any ornament, drained of color with a ghostly, unearthly glow illuminating the kitchen through the windows.

Jack's Mother is the Sybil who allows Ennis/Aeneas passage past Cerberus the guardian of the underworld--Jack's Father- the adamantine, unyielding judge of what is meant to be acceptable and allowable.
Jack's Mother/the Sybil mollifies/drugs the intractable Cerberus/Jack's Father with a sweet cake as in "The Aeneid". She offers the same 'cherry cake' to Ennis/Aeneas along with a cup of coffee. Ennis accepts the latter [as an aid to illumination?], rejecting the former, hence, is able to partake of her offer to see Jack's room and the icons and remnants of his life --"I kept his room like it was when he was a boy. I think he appreciated that. You are welcome to go up in his room, if you want."

Ennis, 'undrugged' by the same cherry cake is able to fully experience the earthly remnants of his beloved Jack's life, the details of whose life he has never fully known or realized, which have been protected and maintained in his boyhood room by his true guardian/Mother.

Ennis ascends the deathly, bare stairs to Jack's room where he finds the only true repository of any of the memories of his childhood, the core of his personality. The bare room looking out over the dusty plain and down "the only road" he had every known is heart-breaking. A simple cot for a bed. The rest of the room consists of reminders of Jack's failed dreams. A desk and chair where he failed to make an impression as a scholar. A cowboy figurine is a mocking reminder of his failure to achieve his dream of becoming a cowboy himself. The small .22 hanging in a wooden rack is a mockery of his lack of marksmanship evident earlier in the film. The only thing representing anything of value he might have achieved is the iconic/cult object of his true and abiding love for Ennis - the two shirts hidden away from the prying eyes of Jack's father and the rest of the world. Only his Mother would have been party to their significance.

Jack's Mother/the Sibyl allows him passage out of the house/Hades with the shirts, placing them in a paper bag for transport, even as the Father/Cerberus states adamantly that Jack is "goin' in" the family plot. The final act of hatred of the Father toward his only son is to deny Jack's last wish for his remains to be united with Brokeback, the only reminder of a time and place which gave him his greatest joy in life.

Ennis's final words of "Jack, I swear" echo those of Aeneas when confronted with the 'shade' or ghost of his beloved Dido who committed suicide after he abandoned her.
Aeneas says to Dido's ghost, "I swear by every oath that hell can muster, I swear I left you against my will. The law of God--the law that sends me now through darkness, bramble, rot and profound night--unyielding drove me; nor could I have dreamed that in my leaving I would hurt you so".

Ang Lee's brilliant final shot juxtaposes the closing closet door of Ennis's Brokeback shrine to Jack's eternal memory with the wind-swept fields of ripening golden grain visible through the trailer window and establishes a supreme ambiguity. Are the fields an image of renewal and hope OR an image of intractible inevitability? A symbol of the emotionally limited world which Ennis will inhabit the rest of his days, giving obeisance to the memory of Jack OR a foretaste of the 'Elysian fields' where Ennis/Aeneas will one day be re-united with his beloved?
With the deftness of the great, superior work of art that it is, Ang Lee leaves it to the viewer to answer the final riddle of Brokeback Mountain.