What would it take to help Ennis be OK about himself?

[loneleeb3]

Well, here I go. This thread hits real close to home for me.
I can relate to Ennis so Much because we are so alike in our understanding and acceptance of ourselves.
I agree with the train of thought that by the end Ennis was coming to grips with everything but didn't know what to do with it all. I still don't think he could think of himself as "queer" but knew he loved Jack and somehow in his mind had a different rationalization for their relationship.
I don't know if I am explaining this right. For me, it's somthing I have struggled with all my life. Only now am I just coming to be able to even go there. I think Ennis, like myself, had two selves. The Ennis that he was around Jack and the Ennis the rest of the world saw and never the twain shall meet. Towards the end I think they were coming together But I don't know that Ennis could ever see himself or accept himself as a homosexual.
Having a set of so called "values" drilled into your skull from a young age is somthing that becomes so ingrained it's hard to change. I'm not sure if he (or I) can /could ever completely shake it off.
In answer to the original question, I don't think Ennis could ever be completely ok with himself. I think he could and would have gotten better about it, but I don't think he'd ever be as comfortable in his own skin as Jack was.

As for OMT, he was a mean son of a whoreson bitch. He didn't accept Jack and he sure as hell didn't accept Ennis.
He was trying to hurt him by telling him about the "other guy".  I do agree that Mrs Twist Knew and loved Ennis because her son loved Ennis and Ennis loved Jack.

[Jeff Wrangler]

As for OMT, he was a mean son of a whoreson bitch. He didn't accept Jack and he sure as hell didn't accept Ennis.

Friend, thanks for that.

[serious crayons]

As for OMT, he was a mean son of a whoreson bitch. He didn't accept Jack and he sure as hell didn't accept Ennis.

Friend, thanks for that.

I agree with it, too! Yay!

 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Friend, thanks for that.

I agree with it, too! Yay!

 

Hunh? 

I don't understand how you can agree with that--the comment being that John Twist was "a mean son of a whoreson bitch" who "didn't accept Jack" and "sure as hell didn't accept Ennis"-- when you also say that John Twist showed "an acceptance and understanding of their relationship"? 

Actually, I just wish I could understand why you are so determined--or feel such a need?--to exonerate John Twist of homophobia. 

[Front-Ranger]

My feeling is that Old Man Twist is just about the most hate-filled man I've ever encountered. He's not only homophobic, he's humanophobic. He expresses his hate and wreaks damage in an indirect way. His words mean much more than they indicate on the surface. His first words are "I know where Brokeback Mountain is." The expression is filled with knowing and hate. He is even hateful to his wife who is a saint. I think he hates her BECAUSE she is so good. He despises her for staying with him through the years, because there is no one he hates more than himself. And he hates her because of her love of her only child.

When he leads Ennis through the review of Jack's life, he builds him up, and Ennis follows along with a little smile. And then he crushes him down. Old Man Twist knows that you can do so much more damage with a few well-chosen words than you could ever do with fists.

[serious crayons]

Actually, I just wish I could understand why you are so determined--or feel such a need?--to exonerate John Twist of homophobia. 

Well, what an odd way to put it, Jeff. Makes it sound like I like him and am advocating on his behalf to get him off the hook. I'm only advocating on behalf of the way I see the scene.

Maybe this will help clarify. You've seen Lee's post above. Now let me tell you that I agree with pretty much every single thing she wrote -- EXCEPT the part about John Twist being homophobic.

I'm just saying it's possible to be a mean, hate-filled son of a bitch -- without being homophobic.

Hunh? 

I don't understand how you can agree with that--the comment being that John Twist was "a mean son of a whoreson bitch" who "didn't accept Jack" and "sure as hell didn't accept Ennis"-- when you also say that John Twist showed "an acceptance and understanding of their relationship"? 

Again, I'm not trying to paint him as some kindly supportive dad. I totally agree that he didn't accept Jack -- just as lots of fathers don't accept their straight sons. And he didn't accept Ennis, just as lots of fathers don't accept their straight children's romantic partners.

What he did accept -- or at least seemed to understand, tolerate, voice no objections to -- was the idea that two men could have a long-term romantic relationship. And that it might even be OK for them to have it, even if it means breaking up a heterosexual marriage and family, as long as it gets the ranch licked into shape.

I'm not even trying to argue that he didn't have a homophobic bone in his body. Only that he didn't express any homophobia in that scene. I agree with Lee that his words mean much more than they indicate on the surface; I just don't think that's what they're indicating.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Well, what an odd way to put it, Jeff. Makes it sound like I like him and am advocating on his behalf to get him off the hook.

Well, I'm afraid that's what it sounded like to me--like you were trying to convince a jury.

I'm only advocating on behalf of the way I see the scene.

And how is this different from advocating that John Twist isn't homophobic?

Maybe this will help clarify. You've seen Lee's post above. Now let me tell you that I agree with pretty much every single thing she wrote -- EXCEPT the part about John Twist being homophobic.

I'm just saying it's possible to be a mean, hate-filled son of a bitch -- without being homophobic.

Well, sure--except that he is.

Again, I'm not trying to paint him as some kindly supportive dad. I totally agree that he didn't accept Jack -- just as lots of fathers don't accept their straight sons. And he didn't accept Ennis, just as lots of fathers don't accept their straight children's romantic partners.

What he did accept -- or at least seemed to understand, tolerate, voice no objections to -- was the idea that two men could have a long-term romantic relationship. And that it might even be OK for them to have it, even if it means breaking up a heterosexual marriage and family, as long as it gets the ranch licked into shape.

Gee, wouldn't I just love to watch if you were actually able to sit down with that old SOB and discuss that last paragraph. ... That a 60-something backwater Wyoming rancher nearly 30 years ago could be OK with two men having a long-term romantic relationship? I'm sorry, friend, but I grew up with relatives in my own family who were very like John Twist, and the very idea just beggars belief.

I'm not even trying to argue that he didn't have a homophobic bone in his body. Only that he didn't express any homophobia in that scene. I agree with Lee that his words mean much more than they indicate on the surface; I just don't think that's what they're indicating.

And that, unfortunately, is what I will never understand--how you can come away from that scene and not see the homophobia that is so blatant and obvious to others as to not even need discussing. 

[Clyde-B]

I'm not sure that OMT was all that homophobic.

Do you think Jack would have wanted to move back to Lightning Flat with a lover if he was?

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'm not sure that OMT was all that homophobic.

Do you think Jack would have wanted to move back to Lightning Flat with a lover if he was?

That suggests another question: Since Jack couldn't please his old man no how, why would he want to move back to Lightning Flat at all, with or without a lover?

If Jack's over-riding concern was to finally win his father's approval by licking the ranch into shape, perhaps he didn't even consider the implications of bringing a lover with him.

[Brown Eyes]

Hey Buds,

Well it seems that Old Man Twist is as controversial as ever!  Here's a link to an old thread here on Open Forum devoted to this as its very own topic (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1922.0.html).  Thanks for jumping in here Clyde-B, you make an interesting point.  I wonder if Jack might not have had any other clear plans as to how to start out on a life with Ennis.  Jack didn't really have any money of his own (it's hard to know whether we should believe that L.D. would ever give him money for leaving) and Ennis certainly didn't have any money.  So, my hunch is that Jack maybe thought that he and Ennis could go to Lightning Flat for a while and figure things out for themselves from there.  I doubt Jack would have wanted to stay there permanently.  But, there is that intriguing second building visible in some of the exterior shots of the Lightning Flat house.  It's truly a falling-down shack that's uninhabitable... and there's been a suggestion here and there that this desolate structure represents the life together that could-have-been but was passed by for Jack and Ennis.

....

Leaving OMT aside for the moment, what else about the visit to Lightning Flat might have caused Ennis to change his view of not only his relationship with Jack, but also his perception of himself?  Is there any other scene in the movie that has the equivalent force for Ennis regarding this issue of self-acceptance?

If we look back much earlier in the film, I think TS2 might be a very different but maybe equally powerful scene where Ennis learns to trust his instincts, feelings, desires, etc.  Ennis's active decision to leave the fireside and seek Jack out in the tent (this time Ennis is not cold and Jack is not calling out to him as was the case just prior to TS1) involved a lot of courage and self-awareness even this early on.  This is a moment when he does not allow his fear to direct his actions and overrides his fears in order to go to Jack.  And the fact that he was so warmly rewarded by Jack's acceptance, reassurance and sweetness probably would have gone a long way towards Ennis developing positive impressions about his sexuality.