What would it take to help Ennis be OK about himself?

[loneleeb3]

I'm not sure that OMT was all that homophobic.

Do you think Jack would have wanted to move back to Lightning Flat with a lover if he was?

I think it would have been the big F-YOU! To his old man!
After the things OMT did to him as a child this would be the best "I'll show you" ever!
Just my opinion. tell ya what though, I think OMT and Old Man DelMar would have been two peas in a pod cut from the same fabric. No offense to anyone but saying OMT was not homophobic is like saying the Pope isn't Catholic.

[Fran]

Good points, Lee.

Here's what I'm currently thinking (and I'm probably the minority opinion):

OMT would have accepted help from Jack and Ennis (or Randall) in whipping the ranch into shape.  That seems certain to me.  (But how OMT would have treated Ennis -- or Randall -- is a whole different story.)  Yes, OMT is homophobic, but perhaps not hopelessly so.

I think that OMT was in a bind.  He couldn't get any help for his ranch by his own means.  Jack comes by a few times a year to help out, but it's not enough. In order for OMT to have Jack's help on a day-to-day basis, he'd have to accept Jack and whomever.  Jack wasn't coming back to Lightning Flat alone.  He was bringing someone.  That was the only way he'd come back.  It's sort of like Jack made OMT an offer he couldn't refuse, though he probably wanted to. 

I'm sort of thinking that if Jack really wanted to stick it to OMT, he would have just shown up with Ennis or Randall.  Instead, he's talking about it with OMT.  And it's not like OMT is telling Jack, "Yeah, you'll bring this Ennis del Mar here over my dead body, no way in hell"; rather, OMT is hearing Jack.  And when Jack finally accepts the fact that Ennis probably won't ever agree to the "sweet life," he starts thinking about Randall, and Randall's the person he's talking about to OMT.  It's another discussion.  The dialogue was ongoing, and although OMT probably didn't like what he was hearing, he had to accept it.

If this makes any sense at all, I think that there was at least a glimmer of hope that OMT would have been able to accept the idea of Jack and Ennis (or Randall), at least a little, but it wouldn't have been easy for him, and it would have been a gradual acceptance out of necessity.

[serious crayons]

Well, I'm afraid that's what it sounded like to me--like you were trying to convince a jury.

Well, I suppose I do have a way of debating forcefully. But I hardly think I'm the only one here who debates forcefully, Jeff,  . Ahem.

If I sound like I'm making a closing argument to a jury, it may be because a) I have a lot of reasons for believing what I believe, and I want to give them all their day in the sun and b) I realize my contention goes against a lot of people's assumptions. Hell, it goes against what were MY assumptions for months and months after first seeing the movie. One night, writing a post here, I was discussing how homophobic OMT is, when suddenly I realized -- wait a minute, he's not all that homophobic. Then I thought about it some more and realized -- wait, he doesn't exhibit any overt unequivocal homophobia AT ALL. Isn't that interesting!

And how is this different from advocating that John Twist isn't homophobic?

It's not, when you put it that way. But when you put it as "you ... feel such a need ... to exonerate him" it somehow sounds somehow more, um ... personal or sump'n. Remember, I DON'T LIKE Mr. Twist. I have a need to exonerate him like I have a need for an opinion on "s'alright" vs. "sorry" -- I'm interested, but fairly neutral.

Well, sure--except that he is.

OK, Jeff ...  So you believe he is! That's fine. You go right ahead. I guess I could turn it around and say, "Why do you feel such a need to prove that he's homophobic"?

That a 60-something backwater Wyoming rancher nearly 30 years ago could be OK with two men having a long-term romantic relationship? I'm sorry, friend, but I grew up with relatives in my own family who were very like John Twist, and the very idea just beggars belief.

Hey, don't be sorry, Bud! I realize this interpretation doesn't fit what we think we already know about the culture. That's why it's interesting. Sounds like you're interpreting the movie based on assumptions you had walking into the theater. That's what the movie is trying to get viewers NOT to do. It wants us to toss away whatever stereotypes we might have. Macho cowboys can be gay, not all SOBs are homophobes.

Friend, my favorite aunt and her lesbian partner will be celebrating their mutual 80th birthdays this August with a  big cocktail party in their small Iowa farm town (population 3,900). They they moved there after retiring, after having lived together for 30+ years. In addition to my relatives (mostly from Iowa, many from small towns), I'm expecting to see lots of locals there -- my aunt, a stranger in the town when she arrived, shortly thereafter ran for mayor (against the incumbent, I always have to add!  ) and served several terms. She is brilliant and irreverent and funny as hell and not at all what you might picture when you hear the phrase, "my 80-year-old aunt." And the behavior of the townsfolk beggars MY belief about the way elderly backwater Midwesterners behave.

People surprise you sometimes, thank God.

And that, unfortunately, is what I will never understand--how you can come away from that scene nd not see the homophobia that is so blatant and obvious to others as to not even need discussing. 

Tell you what, not all "others" interpret the scene that way. I've talked to at least a handful of Brokies who agree with me. But yes, I realize the majority of viewers are predisposed to find homophobia in the scene, so to many people, it's "blatant and obvious."

How about this: What exactly does John Twist say or do that couldn't just as easily have been said or done by a mean old son-of-a-bitch father to a resented heterosexual son?

Instead, he's talking about it with OMT.  And it's not like OMT is telling Jack, "Yeah, you'll bring this Ennis del Mar here over my dead body, no way in hell"; rather, OMT is hearing Jack.  And when Jack finally accepts the fact that Ennis probably won't ever agree to the "sweet life," he starts thinking about Randall, and Randall's the person he's talking about to OMT.  It's another discussion.  The dialogue was ongoing, and although OMT probably didn't like what he was hearing, he had to accept it.

Fran, you make a good point. OMT ran Jack off. Yet Jack kept returning. And when he returned, did Jack try to hide his homosexuality to get along with Daddy? Hell no, he talked to his dad about his plans to ditch his wife and live with a man. Was his dad's reaction so awful that Jack never went back to the ranch, let alone mention his plan again? No! Jack kept going back, kept mentioning the plan. When it became clear that Ennis wasn't going to go for the sweet life, THEN did Jack shut up about it? No!!!! He simply told his dad he had another fella in mind. Now why would he do any of those things if his dad was virulently homophobic? Why would OMT listen?!

For that matter, if his OMT were a raging homophobe, why on earth would Jack even think for a second of bringing Ennis or Randall or anyone up to the ranch in the first place, subjecting them to what would surely be a hellish existence of conflict and disapproval? Doesn't sound like a very sweet life. Yet somehow, Jack thought it would work ... 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Well, I suppose I do have a way of debating forcefully. But I hardly think I'm the only one here who debates forcefully, Jeff,  . Ahem.

If I sound like I'm making a closing argument to a jury, it may be because a) I have a lot of reasons for believing what I believe, and I want to give them all their day in the sun and b) I realize my contention goes against a lot of people's assumptions. Hell, it goes against what were MY assumptions for months and months after first seeing the movie. One night, writing a post here, I was discussing how homophobic OMT is, when suddenly I realized -- wait a minute, he's not all that homophobic. Then I thought about it some more and realized -- wait, he doesn't exhibit any overt unequivocal homophobia AT ALL. Isn't that interesting!

You missed your calling. Shoulda been a lawyer. ... (That's actually s'posed to be a compliment.)

OK, Jeff ...  So you believe he is! That's fine. You go right ahead. I guess I could turn it around and say, "Why do you feel such a need to prove that he's homophobic"?

I don't feel a need to prove it because it's so clearly apparent in Peter McRobbie's performance. Forgive me if I've missed something in your argument, but my impression is that your argument rests on the bare bones of dialogue alone without also taking into account delivery, little gestures like spitting into the cup, milieu--that sort of stuff.

Hey, don't be sorry, Bud! I realize this interpretation doesn't fit what we think we already know about the culture. That's why it's interesting. Sounds like you're interpreting the movie based on assumptions you had walking into the theater. That's what the movie is trying to get viewers NOT to do.

Yes, with respect to homosexuals, not with respect to homophobes.

Friend, my favorite aunt and her lesbian partner will be celebrating their mutual 80th birthdays this August with a  big cocktail party in their small Iowa farm town (population 3,900). They they moved there after retiring, after having lived together for 30+ years. In addition to my relatives (mostly from Iowa, many from small towns), I'm expecting to see lots of locals there -- my aunt, a stranger in the town when she arrived, shortly thereafter ran for mayor (against the incumbent, I always have to add!  ) and served several terms. She is brilliant and irreverent and funny as hell and not at all what you might picture when you hear the phrase, "my 80-year-old aunt." And the behavior of the townsfolk beggars MY belief about the way elderly backwater Midwesterners behave.

I'm very happy for your aunt and her partner--wish 'em a Happy Birthday and offer 'em a shot of whiskey for me!--but for me your description of their experience, rather than lending credence to your argument, instead suggests a whole slew of questions on its own (relative to the experience/perception of lesbians compared to the experience/perception of gay men) that go far beyond the purview of this thread, and I wonder whether their experience--not to discount it in the least--bears any more than a superficial relevance to Brokeback Mountain.

Tell you what, not all "others" interpret the scene that way. I've talked to at least a handful of Brokies who agree with me. But yes, I realize the majority of viewers are predisposed to find homophobia in the scene, so to many people, it's "blatant and obvious."

Note that I was careful not to qualify that "others" with an adjective. I just left it at "others."

How about this: What exactly does John Twist say or do that couldn't just as easily have been said or done by a mean old son-of-a-bitch father to a resented heterosexual son?

Probably nothing, but how does that prove he isn't homophobic?

For that matter, if his OMT were a raging homophobe, why on earth would Jack even think for a second of bringing Ennis or Randall or anyone up to the ranch in the first place, subjecting them to what would surely be a hellish existence of conflict and disapproval? Doesn't sound like a very sweet life. Yet somehow, Jack thought it would work ... 

I suggested last night that perhaps Jack hadn't really thought through the implications of what he was dreaming about.

Possible, too, that if Jack had ever brought those plans to fruition, that John Twist would have put up with the situation out of self-interest (getting his property improved)--which I distinguish from actually accepting the situation. He might have willfully told himself that Ennis and Jack in that cabin were no different than any two hands in a bunkhouse and simply willed himself not to think about what might be going on in that cabin at night. Maybe his views would have softened in time.

Let's not forget, too, that John Twist wasn't the only one waiting for Jack back on the home place. His dear mother was there, too.

[loneleeb3]

Possible, too, that if Jack had ever brought those plans to fruition, that John Twist would have put up with the situation out of self-interest (getting his property improved)--which I distinguish from actually accepting the situation. He might have willfully told himself that Ennis and Jack in that cabin were no different than any two hands in a bunkhouse and simply willed himself not to think about what might be going on in that cabin at night. Maybe his views would have softened in time.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one!
However, I don't think he would have softned with time.
The only time that man will ever soften is when he's been in the ground a few days!

[Clyde-B]

I guess what I think of John Twist depends on my assumptions about how he go to be such an SOB.

I always suspected that he hated Jack's dreaming because he had once been a dreamer himself, and life had hammered him so hard that there was no hope left in him and he was actually afraid to dream anymore.  Lightning Flat looks like a place so desolate that it could just suck the life right out of you.  I wonder why such a sweet woman as Jack's mother ever married him.  Was it her only choice, or had things at one time been different?

The one thing I liked about Lightning Flat, that Ennis never knew, was that it looked almost as remote and uncivilized as Brokeback, and maybe they would have actually have had a chance there.

[loneleeb3]

and maybe they would have actually have had a chance there.

Dang it Clyde! There go the tears again!
What a thought! More missed opportunity.

[serious crayons]

You missed your calling. Shoulda been a lawyer. ... (That's actually s'posed to be a compliment.)

S'alright, Jeff! My dad always used to say the same thing ... 

Forgive me if I've missed something in your argument, but my impression is that your argument rests on the bare bones of dialogue alone without also taking into account delivery, little gestures like spitting into the cup, milieu--that sort of stuff.

Oh, then you have missed something in my argument. For instance, his appearance to me as a genuine grieving father (if also a mean one) rests on performance, not dialogue. Again, gestures like spitting in a cup indicate disdain, which I do not claim he lacks.

I'm very happy for your aunt and her partner--wish 'em a Happy Birthday and offer 'em a shot of whiskey for me!-

Thanks. With them, it will be a martini -- and God help you if you want vermouth in yours! 

-but for me your description of their experience, rather than lending credence to your argument, instead suggests a whole slew of questions on its own (relative to the experience/perception of lesbians compared to the experience/perception of gay men) that go far beyond the purview of this thread, and I wonder whether their experience--not to discount it in the least--bears any more than a superficial relevance to Brokeback Mountain.

Yes, we could have (and have had!) a whole 'nother discussion about experience/perception of lesbians vs. that of gay men. I'm not meaning to draw an exact parallel. My only point was that people can surprise you, that our assumptions about rural Middle-American backwaters don't always hold true. Sure, lesbians might find easier acceptance (if that's what you're suggesting), but the fact that, as far as I know, my aunt and her partner have enjoyed more or less total acceptance is what pleases me.

Probably nothing, but how does that prove he isn't homophobic?

Well, at the very least it shows that if he IS homophobic he's at least discrete or tactful or something, to go through that whole speech without one mention of sexuality. My point, though, was that the scene is more ambiguous than you're giving it credit for.

Possible, too, that if Jack had ever brought those plans to fruition, that John Twist would have put up with the situation out of self-interest (getting his property improved)--which I distinguish from actually accepting the situation.

Well, that seems a mite closer to my version than your earlier use of the term "verbal gay bashing." I can probably put up with "put up with." Again, I'm certainly not suggesting he would have given the heartwarming keynote toast at Jack and Ennis' wedding.

Let's not forget, too, that John Twist wasn't the only one waiting for Jack back on the home place. His dear mother was there, too.

Oh, I'd never forget that!    But it's the stud duck who calls the shots.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Thanks. With them, it will be a martini -- and God help you if you want vermouth in yours! 

"Very dry," hunh? 

Well, that seems a mite closer to my version than your earlier use of the term "verbal gay bashing." I can probably put up with "put up with." Again, I'm certainly not suggesting he would have given the heartwarming keynote toast at Jack and Ennis' wedding.

Wasn't intended to be. I'm not backing away from the "verbal gay bashing" I think he gives Ennis. Just that I also see him as potentially willfully turning a blind eye and putting up with it out of self-interest. Who knows but what maybe his attitude would have given a bit if Jack's verbal musings had come to pass. But they didn't and I'm not backing off a bit from how I see John Twist in "what actually happened."

I don't see a bit of grief in John Twist. Just bitterness. And that's bitterness generally, not specifically over Jack's death.

Oh, I'd never forget that!    But it's the stud duck who calls the shots.


[/quote]

[loneleeb3]

I don't see a bit of grief in John Twist. Just bitterness. And that's bitterness generally, not specifically over Jack's death.

Amen!
He's mad he lost his sometimes ranch hand!
You can tell Mrs Twist is heartbroken but not allowed to grieve.
SHe is very careful about what she says. Her eyes seem to be always watching OMT to see if she has done or said somthing wrong!
She musta had a strong influence over jack at one time. He sure as hell didn't get his kindness and easy ways from his father!