How much did he see exactly?

[thecutestcollie]

How much did Aguirre see? and What does "stemming the rose" mean? Did he see them engage in sex? I thought he just saw them kiss but it has been confusing me for awhile..

[Brown Eyes]

Yes, I take Aguirre's comment to mean that he saw them having intercourse (which is what "stemming the rose" means metaphorically).

Also, in Proulx's story it's made more explicit that Aguirre watched them for a longer amount of time than the film shows.

But, in the "happy tussle" scene, which we see Aguirre witness with his binoculars, I think it's implied that something more had just been happening prior to  Ang Lee cutting to this scene... and something more is probably meant to continue to happen after the scene cuts away.  At the very beginning of the scene, we see Jack zipping up his jeans (or that's what it looks like to me) and Ennis has really muddy knees... all of which seem to be meant as suggestive.  And, I've always interpreted Ennis's playful act of knocking Jack's hat off as foreplay.  When he knocks Jack's hat off again during the reunion kiss, it's again evocative of this foreplay I think.


By the way, welcome to BetterMost!  Want a cup of coffee don't you, and a piece of cherry cake?
 

[thecutestcollie]

Yes, I take Aguirre's comment to mean that he saw them having intercourse (which is what "stemming the rose" means metaphorically).

Also, in Proulx's story it's made more explicit that Aguirre watched them for a longer amount of time than the film shows.

But, in the "happy tussle" scene, which we see Aguirre witness with his binoculars, I think it's implied that something more had just been happening prior to  Ang Lee cutting to this scene... and something more is probably meant to continue to happen after the scene cuts away.  At the very beginning of the scene, we see Jack zipping up his jeans (or that's what it looks like to me) and Ennis has really muddy knees... all of which seem to be meant as suggestive.  And, I've always interpreted Ennis's playful act of knocking Jack's hat off as foreplay.  When he knocks Jack's hat off again during the reunion kiss, it's again evocative of this foreplay I think.


By the way, welcome to BetterMost!  Want a cup of coffee don't you, and a piece of cherry cake?
 

Oh ok thanks. That's what I thought

Thanks Yes ma'am I'll have a cup of coffee but I can't eat no cake just now 

[Rayn]

Yes atz75 is right about Aguirre seeing them do more and, as she says, it's in the book clearly.

 He watched them with 10x42 binoculars..."for 10 minutes one day, waiting until they buttoned up their jeans... "  So, yes, in the book, Aguirre saw that having some sort of sex and that pretty much carries over into the film with the "stemming the rose" comment, which is in the screenplay but not the book. 

That was a clever way to get the idea that Aguirre actually saw them in the act though, wasn't it?

[Rayn]

Ah ha, I knew it , I knew it.... at 250 posts my humble position changed to...

"Brokeback got me good"!!   LOL   

I was waiting for that to happen 'cause that's just how I'm feeling again!    

What fun!!        

[Front-Ranger]

...pretty much carries over into the film with the "stemming the rose" comment, which is in the screenplay but not the book. 

Hey, Rayn, congrats on your new status! The phrase "stemming the rose" is in the book. I don't have my copy with me, or I'd look it up. Can anyone help us with a quote here?

[RodneyFL]

Hey, Rayn, congrats on your new status! The phrase "stemming the rose" is in the book. I don't have my copy with me, or I'd look it up. Can anyone help us with a quote here?

Rodney to the rescue . . . The occasion for the phrase "stem the rose" is from Jack's telling Ennis during the motel reunion scene of going back to Signal looking for a job, and hopefully finding Ennis again.  Jack began by telling Ennis that maybe someone had seen them that summer, meaning Aguirre.  He stops the story with Aguirre's "You boys found a way to make the time pass up there, didn't you?"  According to Jack, he simply left after giving Aguirre a look, and then spotted the binoculars in Aguirre's car ("hanging off his rearview").  The narrator continued with the portion containing, "You guys wasn't getting paid to leave the dogs baby-sit the sheep while you stemmed the rose" and declined to rehire him.  Can you imagine Ennis' reaction if Jack had told the whole story?

I particularly love the motel scene in the short story for several reasons.  First, Ennis is much more conversational and willing to talk about how he feels ("shouldn't have let you outa my sights").  Second, the scene contains an incredibly powerful reaction speech from Jack after Ennis tells him it isn't possible for them to have their ranch together.  We learn so much about both characters in this key scene, and as much as I adore the film version, the short story motel scene is simply incredible. 

[Rayn]

Hmmmm, I didn't look in the part of the book, but will, and of course I believe ya. 

Thanks,
Rayn

[nic]

Yes atz75 is right about Aguirre seeing them do more and, as she says, it's in the book clearly.

 He watched them with 10x42 binoculars..."for 10 minutes one day, waiting until they buttoned up their jeans... "  So, yes, in the book, Aguirre saw that having some sort of sex and that pretty much carries over into the film with the "stemming the rose" comment, which is in the screenplay but not the book. 

That was a clever way to get the idea that Aguirre actually saw them in the act though, wasn't it?

Do you think the "one day" implies that he watched them repeatedly engaged in various carnal activities or that it just refers to that fact that he would go up to spy on them in general to see if they were working & on this particular one day he caught them at it?

And as for "stemming the rose", does the short story imply Jack has made up that phrase for his telling to Ennis of the events when he went back last summer or is it just used as if it were a run of the mill phrase?