cont.)
by - the_protector 2 days ago (Fri May 19 2006 06:34:24 ) UPDATED Fri May 19 2006 07:49:27
clancypants--
"What are the sheep? Why are the sheep there? ...The two of them were broken up. Each was broken up emotionally, and their union was broken up."
That sounds possible... But, I thought of something else just know: What if the idea of the sheep represents Ennis? When Ennis says, "We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat them" He's arguing with Jack because Jack wants to change the established role of the sheep. Just like Jack wants to change the established role of Ennis--from friend to lover. When Ennis finds the sheep, torn open and it's insides exposed, it might echo Ennis' own deep realization that with that first tent scene, his inside feelings were exposed and he feels torn between what he feels and what he thinks. And so the "If you keep that up, you'll run off them sheep again." line could mean "If you keep pursuing me, you'll push me(or I'll push you) away." Which is proven many times:
--Ennis rejects Jack's loan. --Ennis rejects Jack's ministrations...by throwing a 'dirty punch'. --Ennis rejects Jack's offer to come back next summer ..and so on....
But back to the harmonica...
"Here, the harmonica is not there. And Ennis is glad. If the harmonica symbolizes disunity or a break up (of the boys' relationship, of Jack's ashes, etc.), then Ennis is glad there is no disunity or break up with them here, in this scene. In fact, Jack says "It could be like this always," offering no break up or disunity to Ennis."
Sounds good. Only thing is, Ennis' sense of unity is different from Jack's. Which is apparent after Jack mentions the 'sweet life'. Maybe it's the disharmony between Jack and Ennis' expectations that is the key here......
Great discussions on this thread! I totally thought, while posting, that this would be merely a thread where people exchange lamentations about Jack--and that would have been fine. But I'm GLAD that more has come of it.
by - clancypants 2 days ago (Fri May 19 2006 07:18:33 ) Absolutely!
I can't disagree with any of your interpretations. They seem as valid as any I've heard and they're well supported. That's all that matters.
by - bjblakeslee 2 days ago (Fri May 19 2006 07:26:44 ) the_protector ,
I wish to express my deepest admiration for the surrealistic absurdity of the name of this thread "Jack's Moustache of Disillusionment." This kind of inspired creativity always keeps me coming back...
by - saucycobblers 2 days ago (Fri May 19 2006 07:32:30 ) Hey, you beat me to it! I was just about to post how much the title makes me laugh every time I see it. Wonderful...
by - the_protector 2 days ago (Fri May 19 2006 07:56:01 ) clancypants--
Yep, it's always a nice mental workout to break things apart and put them back together in new ways!
bjblakeslee and saucycobblers--
Thanks for the kind words.
I just named the thread according to how I felt. Everytime I see the film, the introduction of 'whiskered Jack' always gets me down .It's the beginning of the end.
by - taj_e 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 11:28:08 ) UPDATED Fri May 19 2006 11:30:17
clancypants I meant to say Ennis' fear and all the consequences that followed (will follow) 'the tent didn't look right' etc OR maybe Jack himself, like he did later one 'It is because of you, Jack..'
by - sunsetsilk 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 11:56:24 ) On the subject of tents....
This has always been a pair of "bookends" for me:
Right before Ennis goes into Jack's tent for the first time, he is covered with a blanket, cold, stumbling, and rather disoriented. This is the beginning of their Eden-like time on Brokeback. The end of that time is signaled as Ennis emerges from his tent to find snow. He is, again, covered with a blanket, cold, stumbling, and disoriented.
Apologies if this has been mentioned before....
by - clancypants 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 13:22:58 ) No apologies necessary. Excellent observation!
P.S. I love the title of this thread.
by - the_protector 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 13:59:36 ) UPDATED Fri May 19 2006 17:28:21
Great observation, sunsetsilk.
It makes the Tent take on a whole other meaning...
After that first tent scene, the Tent transforms from something negative to something positive. Before their first night together, the Tent was addressed with contempt--"That tent smells like cat piss, or worse." and "That tent don't look right." Just before the first tent scene, Jack alludes to their forthcoming idyllic time, "You're better off sleeping in the tent." After the beginning of the Eden-like time, the Tent is seen as a sacred area, a place of safety...like during the second tent scene and the hail storm scene.
After the snow storm, the Tent loses it's sense of safety and before long, is diassembled. Their idyllic time has ended --- and never will be again.
I think it's interesting that Jack is shown breaking down the tent. One would think it would be Ennis, but no, Jack has no problem breaking down/ending their time on Brokeback because he's hopefull that this is just the start of something greater. Ennis, on the other hand, is devastated. This is all he wants because it is all he can let himself want.
by - taj_e 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 14:08:04 ) I concur on the praise deserved for the topic Good one the_protector
The short story did mention how Jack 'changes' his appearances, his teeths, the moustache. I'm not sure if this mean anything at all other than he got the money and somehow his 'lifestyle improved'
Come to think about it, So when Ennis breaks that cycle, as well, Jack can no longer take it... And the flashback, which means so much already, also serves to contrast this Broken Jack with the Hopeful Jack of the past. *sigh*
Did Ennis see this coming? As if he knew he will be pushing button on Jack? I didn't see Jack complain about the 'cycle' since the first time he questioned it 'every 4 f'ng years?'
Is there any connection with Jack complaining and whining about commuting? Didn't he say every 4 hours? And I remembered, Jack actually wanted both of them to stay on the camp, but Ennis thought he wanted to switch task
by - the_protector 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 14:17:36 ) "Did Ennis see this coming? As if he knew he will be pushing button on Jack? I didn't see Jack complain about the 'cycle' since the first time he questioned it 'every 4 f'ng years?'"
Yep, he saw it coming. That's why he waited until the trip was over to spring it on Jack. By now, I think Jack has lost all real hope that Ennis will be with him and so he takes it as he can get it. That means their cycle of trips every year. Ennis breaks that cycle, threatening the little Jack has left. Ennis is tightening 'the [already] short leash' he has on Jack. And Jack must either bear it or cut himself free.
by - taj_e 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 14:21:56 ) Or maybe he felt it too and understand that Jack would feel the same
I don't know, Ennis can be pretty clueless most of the time
by - clancypants 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 16:17:09 ) the protector --
I like what you said about the tents. It's another insightful way to look at them.
Also, you said:
"...Jack has no problem breaking down/ending their time on Brokeback because he's hopeful that this is just the start of something greater. Ennis, on the other hand, is devastated. This is all he wants because it is all he can let himself want."
And that's why his breakdowns -- both in the fight with Jack and, alone, between the buildings in Signal -- are so poignant. Ennis was expecting to be up there with Jack for another couple of weeks and probably hadn't given any thought to the natural conclusion of their time on the mountain. This is why I think Jack's flashback scene takes place the evening before Ennis wakes up in the tent after the snowstorm. He said he'd see Jack in the morning, both of them expecting things to go on status quo for another couple of weeks. Then Ennis wakes up in the tent after the snowstorm, comes back to camp, and it's all over. (And in the final lake scene, Jack said it was going to snow that night ("for sure") -- snow/white symbolizing an end or death. They wake up in their tent the next morning and their relationship comes to a rather unnatural conclusion.)
Had their time run its natural course, they would have known "we've only got x more days," and they probably would have had to have talked about what was going to happen to their relationship after the mountain. They never got that natural closure.
by - the_protector 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 17:39:12 ) UPDATED Fri May 19 2006 17:48:03
Great point clancypants,
I, too, always envisioned that the flashback took place the evening before the snowstorm. I sometimes even convince myself that I see snowflakes floating around their heads. LOL
And I agree that Aguirre's abruptness cheated Ennis out of more than a month's pay. It robbed him of the time to transition.
But, had they had that time, I don't think the following events would've played out the same way. Maybe Jack wouldn't have waited 4 years to contact Ennis. Maybe the reunion would have much less explosive...who knows...maybe they'd be no reunion at all... But I do think the 'unfinished business' vibe of their parting at Signal was an important catalyst for their reunification.
by - taj_e 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 18:16:25 ) I can't believe we have discussed so many things in here esp. on the topic, the harmonica, the tent.. Thank you all, great thread it is
Speaking about the tent, I can't remember on the final lake scene, was it Ennis who carried the tent? or what was it? Jack might have carried the gun and put it inside the back seat
Does this symbolises anything? Considering this was their last fishing trip
by - clancypants 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 19:46:09 ) taj e --
I'm not sure about who carried the tent. The tents in the film may symbolize something. I'm not sure. I've posted about the bookending of the tent scenes on the mountain with the final lake scene. There were a good number of good responses to it. I'm not sure in which thread I wrote about the tents, though. If I can find it, I'll let you know.
I do believe all the guns/rifles in the film have symbolic meaning and are used at specific times for specific purposes. I started a thread about it some time ago. If I can find it, I'll bump it up for you.
by - clancypants 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 19:49:30 ) I just bumped it. It's called
The rifle symbolizes Jack's and Ennis' fate and future
by - taj_e 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 20:02:39 ) Oh lol I love that thread clancypants, I couldn't add more, it was 'perfect' Someone mentioned the song 'The Devil's right hand' which is superb observation
Wow, now I'm a little pissed off at Ennis!
by - toycoon 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 21:33:07 ) I never though of it this way. Fascinating. I may have to go and watch it over again.
Just curious- estimate how many times you've seen the movie straight through or just to watch a specific scene(s).
Honestly, I've lost count!
by - the_protector 21 hours ago (Sat May 20 2006 10:50:24 ) How many times? Geez. From watching it straight through, to looking up scenes to post about, to watching on my iPod at work....hmmm
I'd say about....umm.....damn I can't! It seems I've always been watching it LOL... and oddly enough, all the many times I know I've watched it seem to blur together into one big experience.
by - catglith 17 hours ago (Sat May 20 2006 15:02:04 ) "Ennis had it just the way he wanted it"
I have to disagree. Ennis wasn't anymore happy or satisfied with the situation than Jack was. I'm certain that Ennis wanted to see Jack alot more, and be with him permanently. It was just that, unlike Jack, because of his upbringing and subsequent world view, he just couldn't see or picture any other way of being together so he accepted the situation, and tried to 'stand' it. Jack, on the other hand, had a dream and hope, and lacked Ennis' fear and inner homophobia and self hatred, so he could envision another life for them. And that, IMO, is why it was so hard and painful for Jack - because he wanted and could picture another life for them but Ennis never could, even though he loved Jack desperately.
by - the_protector 17 hours ago (Sat May 20 2006 15:10:07 ) UPDATED Sat May 20 2006 15:31:37
catglith,
Yeh that makes sense, and that's how I feel as well. My wording wasn't the best. By having things 'the way he wanted' I meant he could deal with the way things were. It was a safety zone. He couldn't deal with the idea of going further with Jack, even if he wanted to.
Sorry about that, I didn't want to imply that Ennis didn't love Jack as much as Jack loved him.
by - Levison-1 16 hours ago (Sat May 20 2006 15:22:41 ) For those unaware ... in gay slang, a beard is a female companion used to hide a gay man's sexuality by appearing in public as if she and the gay man were a heterosexual couple. To do this with a heterosexual woman without letting your companion know you are gay is generally considered poor form. The term originated in the mid-1960s. It is derived from the notion that a man with a woman on his arm looks more butch, like a man with a beard. A male companion who accompanies a lesbian woman for the same purposes is sometimes called a merkin.
I think the moustache makes Jack look quite Handsome and Rugged ... not so little boy. When they cut back to the scene before the beard when Ennis has his arm around Jack, Jack still looks like an innocent young man. With the moustache he looks like someone's dad, husband, businessman ... he also looks more modern since everyone had a moustache in the 1970s ... Ennis still has his same image, Ennis looks like he is staying the same ... while Jack looks like he is changing with the times.
Also, it is a little superficial ... I mean, it's so out the blue ... and Jack was always a bit superficial, from his rodeos to his harmonica ... always a little image concious.
I think the moustache is a sad attempt to make himself over ... however, the moustache also works to counter act everything that is fundamentally Jack Twist and Jack Twist's love for Ennis.
From the Ennis look alike young man in Mexico to the inability for Jack to give up on Ennis.
the surface may change, but Jack is still deeply in love.
by - the_protector 16 hours ago (Sat May 20 2006 15:30:54 ) "With the moustache he looks like someone's dad, husband, businessman ... he also looks more modern since everyone had a moustache in the 1970s ... Ennis still has his same image, Ennis looks like he is staying the same ... while Jack looks like he is changing with the times."
Levison, good point about Jack changing and Ennis not changing. But I don't see Jack as 'changing with the times.' Ennis' facial appearance doesn't change because himself doesn't change. He remains the same scared Ennis even after the divorce. Jack however changes one time and at a point when his dream breaks and he begins to accept a sad reality.