Author Topic: what's the point of the job switch?  (Read 49936 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #100 on: May 10, 2006, 02:15:59 pm »
To attribute his collapse solely to his fear of losing Jack, which certainly is one factor, or to any one cause or reason, or even to try to assign one most important cause or reason, does a disservice to the film, to the writing, and to Ennis.

Hunh??  People behave the way they do for any number of reasons, but one is often more important than others. Theorizing about those reasons and their relative importance -- in this situation, and all other situations in the movie where motivations are ambiguous -- seems to me to be the whole point of spending 10 hours a day on these boards. Of course there are no single "right" answers, and the possibilities may be complex and intertwined, but I hardly think it's a disservice to anyone to analyze them and try to form individual interpretations. I think those involved in creating the story and movie left them open-ended because they WANT us to do that (though they probably didn't predict we'd spend quite THIS much time on it).

Besides, I wasn't asking you to go through your entire interpretation of this scene one more time. I was just surprised that you agreed with me for a change.
 :)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2006, 02:21:30 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #101 on: May 10, 2006, 02:39:54 pm »
Besides, I wasn't asking you to go through your entire interpretation of this scene one more time. I was just surprised that you agreed with me for a change.
 :)


No, but you did ask me to write more, and then I realized that I had nothing more to say than what I had already said at least twice already, and I was even getting tired of myself.

I see I was sharper than I intended to be, and I apologize for that, yet I do feel that trying to settle on one single reason or even a most important reason for Ennis's response is a disservice to a complex character in a complex situation, and I'm not apologizing for that position.

But what is the point, anyway, of trying identify the most important or a more important reason for something if one is prepared to accept or admit that there is more than one reason? Trying to assign relative importance is, to me, a pointless exercise. Why do you feel it is important?
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #102 on: May 10, 2006, 03:08:40 pm »
I don't know. Why DO I feel it's important to spend countless hours picking apart the behavior of characters in a movie? There are probably any number of intertwined reasons -- I like to write, it's an escape from "reality," I get bored and lonely at home working and need the distraction, you guys have interesting things to say -- but I guess the MOST IMPORTANT reason is that I love the movie. Without that, none of the others would matter.

As for this case, I just think people tend to behave more for one reason than another, and that in highly emotional situations, one emotion tends to predominate. Whatever is going through Ennis' fictional mind at this moment, I don't imagine him considering numerous factors of equal weight. I guess I can only speak for myself, but when I collapse in despair, one trauma is usually foremost in my mind, even if more than one, at some level, contribute to my angst.

As for why I encouraged you to elaborate, it was in response to this:

(I might say more, but I've got to run to a meeting!)

I was curious about what more you might say if you had time. If you actually DON'T have more to say, that's OK.

In any case, you're right, Ennis is a complex character in a complex situation. How bout we agree on that and leave it at that?
 :)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2006, 03:24:56 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #103 on: May 10, 2006, 04:24:25 pm »
I don't know. Why DO I feel it's important to spend countless hours picking apart the behavior of characters in a movie? There are probably any number of intertwined reasons -- I like to write, it's an escape from "reality," I get bored and lonely at home working and need the distraction, you guys have interesting things to say -- but I guess the MOST IMPORTANT reason is that I love the movie. Without that, none of the others would matter.

As for this case, I just think people tend to behave more for one reason than another, and that in highly emotional situations, one emotion tends to predominate. Whatever is going through Ennis' fictional mind at this moment, I don't imagine him considering numerous factors of equal weight. I guess I can only speak for myself, but when I collapse in despair, one trauma is usually foremost in my mind, even if more than one, at some level, contribute to my angst.

As for why I encouraged you to elaborate, it was in response to this:

I was curious about what more you might say if you had time. If you actually DON'T have more to say, that's OK.

In any case, you're right, Ennis is a complex character in a complex situation. How bout we agree on that and leave it at that?
 :)

I understood why you wanted me to write more. When I had time to think about it, I just realized I didn't have anything more to say than what I'd already said.

It's looking to me that what we have here are two different views of the world, and of people. Of course Ennis doesn't stop and think about why he's reacting,. He just reacts. And I'm prepared to admit there is a trigger involved here--Jack's implicit threat. What I'm not prepared to agree with is that there is only one reason, or even one most important reason, that he collapses because I don't see people and the world that way. On the other hand, if your "most important reason" is my "trigger" then maybe we're just arguing semantics, as I think you yourself suggested somewhere back up the line here.

If you'll forgive an analogy from my own life, the worst "collapse" I've ever personally experienced was at my boyfriend's funeral. I sobbed on the shoulders of a friend like I'd never cried in my entire life, not even at my mother's funeral. The funeral--my boyfriend's death--may have triggered my reaction, but even here, there was also fear involved because my boyfriend died of AIDS (as it happened he didn't give it to me), and I'm just not prepared to assign a more or most important cause to my own reaction. I feel it's pointless.

But I do find it interesting to try to parse out the several reasons, or causes, for what happens, and in Ennis's case to try to account for the vehemence of his reaction. And it's certainly true that if we didn't love the move we wouldn't be here. It would be just too weird otherwise.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #104 on: May 10, 2006, 05:28:39 pm »
I understood why you wanted me to write more. When I had time to think about it, I just realized I didn't have anything more to say than what I'd already said.

It's looking to me that what we have here are two different views of the world, and of people. Of course Ennis doesn't stop and think about why he's reacting,. He just reacts. And I'm prepared to admit there is a trigger involved here--Jack's implicit threat. What I'm not prepared to agree with is that there is only one reason, or even one most important reason, that he collapses because I don't see people and the world that way. On the other hand, if your "most important reason" is my "trigger" then maybe we're just arguing semantics, as I think you yourself suggested somewhere back up the line here.

If you'll forgive an analogy from my own life, the worst "collapse" I've ever personally experienced was at my boyfriend's funeral. I sobbed on the shoulders of a friend like I'd never cried in my entire life, not even at my mother's funeral. The funeral--my boyfriend's death--may have triggered my reaction, but even here, there was also fear involved because my boyfriend died of AIDS (as it happened he didn't give it to me), and I'm just not prepared to assign a more or most important cause to my own reaction. I feel it's pointless.

But I do find it interesting to try to parse out the several reasons, or causes, for what happens, and in Ennis's case to try to account for the vehemence of his reaction. And it's certainly true that if we didn't love the move we wouldn't be here. It would be just too weird otherwise.

Yeah, and it's weird enough as it is!

Another reason, I realized later, that I find it worthwhile to think in terms of a most important reason for Ennis' breakdown is that I see it, coming as it does at the climax of one of the movie's "most important" scenes, as closely connected to fairly central questions surrounding the meaning of the movie.  For example, if you believe Ennis has recognized his love for Jack all along -- as I do and, judging from past posts, you don't -- then the threat of losing that love may be a more important reason. And if you think it's possible that Ennis already is starting to recognize, if not fully accept, the nature of his own sexuality, then homophobia is less important.

I would never deny Ennis' homophobia, though, or try to oversimplify his character. It's all swirled together, all right. The complexity of characterization makes the movie rich and compelling and makes Ennis and Jack so real.

And not to resurrect a debate, in any case. I accept that you and I and others have different macro-interpretations -- no doubt influenced, as you say, by our different views of human nature and life experiences.

I'm really sorry about your boyfriend, Jeff.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #105 on: May 10, 2006, 05:56:20 pm »
Yeah, and it's weird enough as it is!

Another reason, I realized later, that I find it worthwhile to think in terms of a most important reason for Ennis' breakdown is that I see it, coming as it does at the climax of one of the movie's "most important" scenes, as closely connected to fairly central questions surrounding the meaning of the movie.  For example, if you believe Ennis has recognized his love for Jack all along -- as I do and, judging from past posts, you don't -- then the threat of losing that love may be a more important reason. And if you think it's possible that Ennis already is starting to recognize, if not fully accept, the nature of his own sexuality, then homophobia is less important.

I would never deny Ennis' homophobia, though, or try to oversimplify his character. It's all swirled together, all right. The complexity of characterization makes the movie rich and compelling and makes Ennis and Jack so real.

And not to resurrect a debate, in any case. I accept that you and I and others have different macro-interpretations -- no doubt influenced, as you say, by our different views of human nature and life experiences.

I'm really sorry about your boyfriend, Jeff.

At least there's no question that the confrontation at the lake is the emotional climax of the film is the confrontation. (OK, somebody is sure to argue that the "emotional climax" is Ennis in the closet, but I'm not going to go there.)

"Macro-interpretation": I like that!

And thanks about my boyfriend. His family's loss was worse than mine. He was helping his mother and father raise his sister's two little boys. He was a good kid, he just hadn't been very careful about his health.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #106 on: May 11, 2006, 12:54:57 am »
Jeff, I was just browsing around on imdb -- I hardly ever go there anymore -- found a couple of particularly insightful and articulate posters, and checked out a few of their previous posts. I noticed a thread from not too long ago in which they were passionately arguing about the meaning of the the lake scene and what most upsets Ennis. And they were split into two camps: One arguing that it was more about Ennis confronting his sexuality, the other that it was more about his fear of losing Jack!

For the record, both made some very good points.


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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #107 on: May 11, 2006, 02:24:16 am »
In this tangental discussion, WE (me, too) have gotten way OT here. But, I believe that Ennis was actually afraid that if Jack happened to go to Mexico, he would get killed because he was queer. I posted in another discussion thread that what Ennis had really heard about Mexico is that they killed queers down there, too.

I was somewhat shocked when the Movie Ennis said, "Boys like you," to Jack.

In the other thread on BetterMost here, I stated that FATHER Del Mar might have said what Ennis had heard about Mexico and he might have heard it when he was around 9 years old, too. A real daddy would not have taken a 9 year old boy and his 12 year old brother to see the mutilated body of a man who had been beaten with a tire iron. That's as bad as the KKK fathers taking their sons to see black men bodies which were killed the same way. 

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2006, 04:10:25 am »
Jeff, I was just browsing around on imdb -- I hardly ever go there anymore -- found a couple of particularly insightful and articulate posters, and checked out a few of their previous posts. I noticed a thread from not too long ago in which they were passionately arguing about the meaning of the the lake scene and what most upsets Ennis. And they were split into two camps: One arguing that it was more about Ennis confronting his sexuality, the other that it was more about his fear of losing Jack!

Well it looks like Katherine and Jeff have just about covered it (and several other things) again.  I just lurked for a while, while you two thrashed this out some more.  I must say that I agree with you both, alternating my opinion like a shuttle-cock in a badmington game (it's a little disorienting).

I like this summary Katherine, that it was either homophobia or fear of losing Jack, and I think we're all happy that there was a proportion of both of these, the question is by how much.  I think I put more emphasis on the homophobia aspect simply because of having "been there and done that" myself.  My own homophobia was strong enough for me not to believe it, let alone accept it.  So when I play out my experience through that scene I see the "belief that he is not queer" being challenged, and this also explains the hostility since this is also something that I did if anyone challenged me.  I know that I can't claim to know Ennis' motivation on the basis of my life, but in my mind, to make the fear of losing Jack the predominant motivation means you have to make the homophobia less important.  And again, in my clumsy logic, if fear of loss is stronger than homophobia then I can't see how he could have a problem living with Jack.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2006, 09:09:13 am »
TJ, I'd say you got that right about Ennis's father. I forget where or what thread it was on, but somewhere I myself have said that today, his forcing Ennis and K.E. to look at that desecrated body--and in my not-so-humble-opinion desecrated is the only word for it--might be construed as abusive behavior.

Chris, I like your synthesis! You know, I avoided bringing it up because I thought it wasn't fair for discussion, but I do think that one aspect of the "internalized homophobia" perspective is that I think it's easier to grasp if you've been there, and I've been there, too. I know this is one factor in my "identification" with Ennis.

Katherine, I haven't been back to IMDB in a while--I lit out for Bettermost rodeo instead  :D --but I wonder how long ago was not too long ago? I'm just being curious because I argued--make that discussed  ;) --my views over at IMDb, too, but I changed my screen ID when I settled on this little cow-and-calf operation.

Maybe I should go back to IMDb--next year.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.