what's the point of the job switch?

[Ray]

You're scaring me here guys!

[Jeff Wrangler]

You're scaring me here guys!

Easy does it, Ray! Nothing to be scared of here--unless you want to be scared!

 

[delalluvia]

You're scaring me here guys!

Easy does it, Ray! Nothing to be scared of here--unless you want to be scared!

 

Oh, he just wants to be scared! 

[Jeff Wrangler]

You're scaring me here guys!

Easy does it, Ray! Nothing to be scared of here--unless you want to be scared!

 

Oh, he just wants to be scared! 

Maybe I should get my whips and chains? Oh, Ray? Ray? ... 

[Front-Ranger]

I have no authority to disagree with a gay man on this matter but that has never stopped me before (and the whips and chains didn't deter me either!) But as an artistic point, I believe the two men exchanged positions at least some of the time. I will grant you that the story is ambiguous; you can interpret the horseback quote several ways. But in the movie, we see that in the second tent scene, that Ennis tugged or pulled Jack over on top of him and while the scene ends there, our imagination can fill in the rest. Finally, the two shirts, Jeff. In Jack's closet, Jack's shirt is on top while in Ennis' closet, Ennis shirt is on top. What more proof do you need? 

[Jeff Wrangler]

I have no authority to disagree with a gay man on this matter but that has never stopped me before (and the whips and chains didn't deter me either!) But as an artistic point, I believe the two men exchanged positions at least some of the time. I will grant you that the story is ambiguous; you can interpret the horseback quote several ways. But in the movie, we see that in the second tent scene, that Ennis tugged or pulled Jack over on top of him and while the scene ends there, our imagination can fill in the rest. Finally, the two shirts, Jeff. In Jack's closet, Jack's shirt is on top while in Ennis' closet, Ennis shirt is on top. What more proof do you need? 

Well, there's position--maybe posture would be a clearer term?--and then there's who's doing what to whom. Granted, in the second tent scene we see Jack roll over "on top" of Ennis, but, based on my own experience of "my people," that in no way indicates to me that in that encounter, Jack fucks Ennis. That scene is also all too short for us to really know what happens when they really get down to brass tacks.  I don't think I even really need to fall back on the story to maintain my position ( ) that it would be an egregious violation of the character of Ennis as he's presented to us in the movie for him ever to have been the "receptive" partner.

As for the shirts, that's always been, to me, a "heart thing" that has absolutely nothing to do with sexual role or posture. Jack has Ennis's shirt hidden inside his own shirt, as he has Ennis "hidden inside" his heart. Conversely, when Ennis hangs up the shirts in his trailer, he's doing the same thing--he's keeping Jack inside his heart, as he now has Jack's shirt inside his shirt. I've read somewhere that it was actually Heath Ledger's idea to reverse the shirts this way, and I'm sure that's more or less what he was thinking. Why am I convinced of this? Because if I had a shirt that belonged to my late boyfriend, that's exactly what I would do.

[serious crayons]

it would be an egregious violation of the character of Ennis as he's presented to us in the movie for him ever to have been the "receptive" partner.

Everything Ennis does inside that tent is an egregious violation of his character. That's what's so charming about it. I'm inclined to see the same implication Front-Ranger does in the closing moments of TS2. Wishful thinking, maybe, but ...

It's true, Jeff, that as women we may not be as knowlegable about the norms and customs of "your people." But remember that you are also much more knowlegable than Jack and Ennis were. They're just stumbling along, figuring things out as they go.  I know your point is complex -- that you're referring to behavior that occurs naturally as well as behavior shaped by socialization --  but surely that's at least something to keep in mind.

I completely agree with you about the shirts, though. And well put.
 

[Jeff Wrangler]

it would be an egregious violation of the character of Ennis as he's presented to us in the movie for him ever to have been the "receptive" partner.

Everything Ennis does inside that tent is an egregious violation of his character. That's what's so charming about it. I'm inclined to see the same implication Front-Ranger does in the closing moments of TS2. Wishful thinking, maybe, but ...

It's true, Jeff, that as women we may not be as knowlegable about the norms and customs of "your people." But remember that you are also much more knowlegable than Jack and Ennis were. They're just stumbling along, figuring things out as they go.  I know your point is complex -- that you're referring to behavior that occurs naturally as well as behavior shaped by socialization --  but surely that's at least something to keep in mind.

I completely agree with you about the shirts, though. And well put.
 

Awww, Katherine. ... (blushes). Just read your last post on the post card thread. Thanks!

Now back to business.

Interesting. I just read Front-Ranger's last post again. As if I actually need an excuse to watch the film again--here's one. It has always, in ten viewings, appeared to me, that in the second tent scene it is Jack rolling over on top of Ennis, not Ennis pulling Jack on top of himself.

Now, please try to help me out, here. I am trying to understand, and no offense or disrespect to anyone's opinion intended, but why do some of you women apparently have such a difficult time with the idea that Ennis didn't get fucked by Jack? This isn't a gay thing. Do you not get how powerful the taboo is among "straight" males against "taking it up the ass"? I would have an easier time believing that the Ennis of the original story, who at least can admit that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sights, would switch roles, but not the Ennis of the film. That man, Ennis of the film, is extremely internally homophobic. That's one of his defining characteristics--this is what I meant when I said it would be an egregious violation of his character for him to have been the receptive partner.

The answer is not that Ennis isn't really "straight," because that is how he sees and defines himself. Guys like Ennis can ass-fuck any number of "queers" and emerge with their self-image intact because they've still played the "man's part." But try to turn the tables on them, you'll end up like Earl.

[MaineWriter]

Do you not get how powerful the taboo is among "straight" males against "taking it up the ass"?

Guess I don't because I have known several straight men who have enjoyed anal penetration and the resultant pleasure. Maybe not being fucked by another man, but fingers, dildos, other objects that may have been, ahem, available...all worked...

[serious crayons]

Interesting. I just read Front-Ranger's last post again. As if I actually need an excuse to watch the film again--here's one. It has always, in ten viewings, appeared to me, that in the second tent scene it is Jack rolling over on top of Ennis, not Ennis pulling Jack on top of himself.

Now, please try to help me out, here. I am trying to understand, and no offense or disrespect to anyone's opinion intended, but why do some of you women apparently have such a difficult time with the idea that Ennis didn't get fucked by Jack? This isn't a gay thing. Do you not get how powerful the taboo is among "straight" males against "taking it up the ass"? I would have an easier time believing that the Ennis of the original story, who at least can admit that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sights, would switch roles, but not the Ennis of the film. That man, Ennis of the film, is extremely internally homophobic. That's one of his defining characteristics--this is what I meant when I said it would be an egregious violation of his character for him to have been the receptive partner.

The answer is not that Ennis isn't really "straight," because that is how he sees and defines himself. Guys like Ennis can ass-fuck any number of "queers" and emerge with their self-image intact because they've still played the "man's part." But try to turn the tables on them, you'll end up like Earl.

I really wish more men would join this discussion. It does seem odd for so many women to be debating it with one man, who is thus forced to be the sole spokesman for the entire gay community. Not that I don't respect your opinon, Jeff, obviously, but it would be nice to hear some others.

Everything you say makes sense. And again, maybe I just have to defer to you because of our demographic differences. But doesn't your view involve at least a little leap of assumption? I mean, isn't there the slightest room for doubt?

I don't know why the women in this discussion care what the answer is on this. I'm not even sure I necessarily do. Maybe we're just arguing for the sake of arguing, or maybe it's just to try to understand the way things like that work.

Anyway, I may agree with you on the tent scene. I've heard people say Ennis was pulling and I have tried to see it that way and think I sort of can, but my initial impression was that it was Jack rolling.