what's the point of the job switch?

[TJ]

I spent one year tour of duty in Vietnam and I worked as a clerk-typist and also a bailiff for courts-martials in the Staff Judge Advocate Section with Army Lawyers as my bosses. In the US military what Ennis said could have been understood that Ennis threatened to kill Jack.

But, in the US civilian courts, what Ennis said in what I quoted was not even considered a threat to kill Jack at all. That's because Ennis did not say "What I don't know, all them things I don't know, I will kill you if I should come to know them."

[serious crayons]

Now when Jack challenges him back and Ennis breaks down, then I think we can entertain the idea that Ennis feared losing Jack, but even then, I think he's more worried about his own feeling of being "nothing and no-where", and it's because of Jack that he is that way.

Thanks for your nice support of my interpretation, Chris! Even if it's partial. Here's my take on the "nothin and nowhere" line: He doesn't mean it. That is, he doesn't mean it literally -- you have to read between the lines to get his real meaning. That is, "Why don't you then? Why don't you let me be (even though I'd be miserable)? It's because of (the fact that I'm in love with) you I'm like this. I'm nothing, nowhere (poor because of my years of quitting jobs to be with you, divorced because I couldn't love my wife, dating another woman but without any enthusiam -- but worst of all, stuck in an impossible situation that can't be fixed and so ...) I can't stand it no more, Jack."

I can imagine that from your perspectives, Chris and Jeff, that this reading seems to assume a lot. But I'm convinced that's basically what he means. You can never take things at face value with Ennis -- a guy who expresses love with a punch.

[Aussie Chris]

I spent one year tour of duty in Vietnam and I worked as a clerk-typist and also a bailiff for courts-martials in the Staff Judge Advocate Section with Army Lawyers as my bosses. In the US military what Ennis said could have been understood that Ennis threatened to kill Jack.

But, in the US civilian courts, what Ennis said in what I quoted was not even considered a threat to kill Jack at all. That's because Ennis did not say "What I don't know, all them things I don't know, I will kill you if I should come to know them."

Huh?  I am really struggling to understand you TJ.  So this is what Ennis actually said:

     "What I don't know, all them things I don't know, could get you killed if I come to know them".

and you're saying that because he didn't say:

     "What I don't know, all them things I don't know, I will kill you if I should come to know them."

means that he wasn't actually threatening him, unless he was in the military?!?!

[TJ]

Huh?  I am really struggling to understand you TJ.  So this is what Ennis actually said:

     "What I don't know, all them things I don't know, could get you killed if I come to know them".

and you're saying that because he didn't say:

     "What I don't know, all them things I don't know, I will kill you if I should come to know them."

means that he wasn't actually threatening him, unless he was in the military?!?!

No, I am making the comparison here because Ennis did not literally say that he would kill Jack if he found out certain things as a direct threat. He was saying that Jack's life could be threatened if he did certain things and someone else killed him for doing them. That's also why Ennis assumed that Jack was killed with "the tire iron" when Lureen coldly told Ennis what happened on the phone and why he also assumed it when he heard Mr. Twist make a reference about that (unnamed) rancher friend of Jack's in Texas.

[Aussie Chris]

Thanks for your nice support of my interpretation, Chris! Even if it's partial. Here's my take on the "nothin and nowhere" line: He doesn't mean it. That is, he doesn't mean it literally -- you have to read between the lines to get his real meaning. That is, "Why don't you then? Why don't you let me be (even though I'd be miserable)? It's because of (the fact that I'm in love with) you I'm like this. I'm nothing, nowhere (poor because of my years of quitting jobs to be with you, divorced because I couldn't love my wife, dating another woman but without any enthusiam -- but worst of all, stuck in an impossible situation that can't be fixed and so ...) I can't stand it no more, Jack."

I really like the idea of this Katherine.  You could have a field day filling in the blanks in Ennis' dialogue couldn't you?  As for your expanded dialogue here, actually I'm pretty happy with it.  The "I'm like this because I love you" idea challenges me, but only because I see Ennis is blaming Jack for his situation in this scene.  In my way of viewing it, you could also say: "It's because of you (making me this way that) I'm like this.  I'm nothing, nowhere (because of my weekness and shame that I've lost everything).

Of course, any "expansion" to the dialogue is more about the emotion being conveyed than about unspoken words themselves, and the interpretation relies on the emotion you feel when watching it.  My romantic side wants Ennis to mean "I love you", so that part of me agrees with the sentiment.  On the other hand, Ennis does get angry a lot, so there's resentment in there as strong as any feeling of love.

[Aussie Chris]

No, I am making the comparison here because Ennis did not literally say that he would kill Jack if he found out certain things as a direct threat. He was saying that Jack's life could be threatened if he did certain things and someone else killed him for doing them. That's also why Ennis assumed that Jack was killed with "the tire iron" when Lureen coldly told Ennis what happened on the phone and why he also assumed it when he heard Mr. Twist make a reference about that (unnamed) rancher friend of Jack's in Texas.

Nope, sorry, I still don't get this.  I do think he literally said it when he said: "could get you killed if **I** come to know them".  If this is not Ennis being directly threatening to Jack then what is it?  Is he saying he going to tell someone else who might kill him???  Of course it's ok to say that Ennis wouldn't have actually gone through with it or even hurt Jack (I believe that too), but that's not the point - a threat is a threat.

[TJ]

Nope, sorry, I still don't get this.  I do think he literally said it when he said: "could get you killed if **I** come to know them".  If this is not Ennis being directly threatening to Jack then what is it?  Is he saying he going to tell someone else who might kill him???  Of course it's ok to say that Ennis wouldn't have actually gone through with it or even hurt Jack (I believe that too), but that's not the point - a threat is a threat.

Chris, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." I believe I heard or read that somewhere.

Here in the USA, I have actually heard people talk the way that Annie Proulx's Ennis Del Mar talks. I have heard rural folks in several states talk the way that Ennis, Jack, and some of the other characters in her short story talk.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Thanks for your nice support of my interpretation, Chris! Even if it's partial. Here's my take on the "nothin and nowhere" line: He doesn't mean it. That is, he doesn't mean it literally -- you have to read between the lines to get his real meaning. That is, "Why don't you then? Why don't you let me be (even though I'd be miserable)? It's because of (the fact that I'm in love with) you I'm like this. I'm nothing, nowhere (poor because of my years of quitting jobs to be with you, divorced because I couldn't love my wife, dating another woman but without any enthusiam -- but worst of all, stuck in an impossible situation that can't be fixed and so ...) I can't stand it no more, Jack."

I can imagine that from your perspectives, Chris and Jeff, that this reading seems to assume a lot. But I'm convinced that's basically what he means. You can never take things at face value with Ennis -- a guy who expresses love with a punch.

Surprise! I think you're reading between the lines here is dead-on correct, Katherine. Nothing there that I'd find fault with. I've just always felt that there is an awful lot going on inside poor Ennis in this scene, and no one thing accounts for all of it. His internalized homophobia, his fear of losing Jack--it's all there. No wonder he cracks under the strain.

(I might say more, but I've got to run to a meeting!)

[serious crayons]

Surprise! I think you're reading between the lines here is dead-on correct, Katherine. Nothing there that I'd find fault with. I've just always felt that there is an awful lot going on inside poor Ennis in this scene, and no one thing accounts for all of it. His internalized homophobia, his fear of losing Jack--it's all there. No wonder he cracks under the strain.

(I might say more, but I've got to run to a meeting!)

Well, get back from that meeting and elaborate, Jeff! I am so pleasantly amazed that you are agreeing with me I want to draw out the moment.

And Chris, thanks for your semi-agreement!

I've said this before, so you guys are probably sick of hearing it, but IMO the music and camera work and body language underscore the romantic interpretation. Throughout Jack's speech, Ennis has either had his head bowed and back turned, or been out of camera range. Then when Jack is finished and we finally see him again, he has been crying and then, just after he starts talking, the music swings into full dramatic sad-melody mode. To me, this supports a romantic "I can't stand the thought of losing you" over a grim "I can't stand facing up to my sexuality."

[Jeff Wrangler]

Well, get back from that meeting and elaborate, Jeff! I am so pleasantly amazed that you are agreeing with me I want to draw out the moment.

Actually, there really isn't anything more for me to say than what I've already said ad infinitum (or is it ad nauseam?). The implied threat in Jack's "wish I knew how to quit you" line may trigger Ennis's collapse, but Ennis's response is out of proportion to Jack's comment in and of itself and is accounted for by the release of everything he's been suppressing and denying for twenty years, including but not limited to his love for Jack, as a result of his internalized homophobia. To attribute his collapse solely to his fear of losing Jack, which certainly is one factor, or to any one cause or reason, or even to try to assign one most important cause or reason, does a disservice to the film, to the writing, and to Ennis.

Paradoxically, fear of losing Jack may play a larger role in the collapse of Ennis in the story, who is not as complex or as repressed a character as Ennis in the movie (he's perfectly conscious that Jack is the love of his life, and has been conscious of it since about 1964, but he just won't act on it), but I don't think it's the single cause of the collapse in the story either.