(REPOST) Many thanks to "TheDozyEmbrace" for saving this thread!
_____________________________________________________________________ Ennis had no male friends --- by arad-3 --- 1 of 2
by - arad-3 (Sat Apr 15 2006 07:00:41 ) Did anyone notice in this film that there were no scenes that showed Ennis with any male friends beside Jack? Do you think his father made him so homophobic when he was young that he could never relate to other guys? And isn't it ironic that he had two daughters and Jack had a son? Is there something to this? What do you guys think?
by - maggiesmommy0399 (Sat Apr 15 2006 07:08:02 )
UPDATED Sat Apr 15 2006 07:10:23 i have a 13 yr old gransdon who is a twin..his brother is jock man..he is different, always gentle, so smart, a bit flippy...plays soccer..has his hair long, flips it around..sublte things...raised the very same...
i was wondering if Ennis' dad saw something like this and being a true old school homophob took him to see that dead rancher to "scare him straight"....
this may be the beginning of all the saddness and retisence in Ennis...never being who he really was, always being afraid, afraid to even recognize it in himself...it would make anybody repressed...tho only person who understood and accepted him, the only person he could be "real" around was Jack..thats enough reason to love him, right there....
by - arad-3 (Sat Apr 15 2006 07:16:14 )
UPDATED Sat Apr 15 2006 07:27:58 Wow you could be so right on the mark with that.
And you notice any scene he is in with other men he's fighting with them. Is this to prove his masculinty?
by - maggiesmommy0399 (Sat Apr 15 2006 10:30:41 ) thats true too...hadn't thought of that....i believe we've discovered something that might explain alot...
by - BannerHill (Sat Apr 15 2006 10:32:29 ) interesting point
by - vaporize (Sat Apr 15 2006 10:42:07 ) I don't think Ennis had friends period. Pretty depressing if you think about it.
by - toycoon (Sat Apr 15 2006 10:45:46 ) I trip out about this very same thing. At the wedding, I assume that Alma's Maid of honor is her sister (mentioned later as the person to babysit with the girls) but who is the the guy standing next to Ennis? His brother? His friend? He doesn't seem to have any other male friends and the best man is never seen or mentioned again.
by - arad-3 (Sat Apr 15 2006 11:02:53 )
UPDATED Sat Apr 15 2006 11:04:34 When I watched it I thought his best man probably was his brother. But did you notice even when he was in the bars he always sat at a table alone. He lived in that town for years (Im assuming ) but yet he did'nt sit at the bar and have a beer with any buddys like guys would normally do.. Especially a guy his age.
by - vaporize (Sat Apr 15 2006 11:07:30 ) I agree. In my opinion, the saddest part in the movie was when you see Cassie (?) walk into the diner and you see Ennis eating alone. That's really depressing to have to eat by yourself.
by - arad-3 (Sat Apr 15 2006 11:12:21 ) If it was'nt for his meetings with Jack, He would not of had any happiness to his life at all. It was so depressing.
by - kula17 (Sat Apr 15 2006 11:17:31 )
UPDATED Sat Apr 15 2006 11:34:03 The movie didn't touch on this, but it is possible for an insecure, gay man to have trouble socializing with other men who are not gay. Even though I'm in the closet I can't get the idea of being "judged" as different whenever I try to talk to my buddies at work. For some reason, I don't feel like this with my female friend/co-worker, whom I have taken to see BBM with in the theatre and she loved it. It's a misconception of mine that females are less judgemental than males, but I can't help it sometimes. All I know is that it's easier for me to be upfront with the ladies.
(EDIT: Not to imply that Ennis thought of himself as "gay" from the beginning, I was only talking about myself. Ennis clearly didn't know what he was feeling and was afraid... avoided coming to terms with the fact that he was in love with another man.)
But anyway, Ennis was lucky to have met someone as caring like Jack to soften that shell of his, I agree.
by - MtBecky (Sat Apr 15 2006 11:27:01 ) Okay, Ennis was very much a loner. I think he didn't have much self confidence, but I also think he probably had some friends. I mean Ennis mentions that they could try and get Don Wroes cabin again and that they had a good time there. (This was said during their last meeting conversation)...So I would think this Don Wroe must be a friend of sorts to lend Ennis his cabin? Some people just aren't talkers, and we know Ennis was not a favorite of conversation and those people prefer to be alone. This I think, was what Ennis was all about...a loner.
by - arad-3 (Sat Apr 15 2006 11:40:44 ) I think when Ennis asked Jack if he feels that ,when someone looks at him they know. And when you step out on the concrete everybody knows. Maybe it's just your fears, thats making you feel this way. But then again it could be true.
I do agree with you that woman might be less judgmental on this subject. I think our feminine nature does not feel the threat the more masculine males feel.
I have always had alot of fun with my gay friends. My husband on the other hand has always been more stand offish. For some reason he could'nt believe that I could hang out with gay men all the time without them trying to hit on me...that just makes me laugh so hard he would think that.!
But good luck with your situation. It will all work out for you.
by - terryhall2 (Sat Apr 15 2006 17:17:38 ) This is interesting. My ex who was Ennis personified had no male friends either...just women friends. I often wondered why that was. He had a good mate from university who he sang with but otherwise he preferred women's company.
Maybe because if he got too close to men his real sexuality might have to be more readily acknowledged....and it would just get too messy for him. Any ideas?
by - kellyjt (Sat Apr 15 2006 17:23:11 ) You beat me to the punch in mentioning Don Wroe. While I don't think there's any proof one way or the other, I got the feeling that Don was one of Ennis's bosses, like Roy Taylor was Randall's boss. I don't see Ennis having too many friends in general, much less one that is wealthy enough to have a hunting/fishing cabin in addition to his regular home.
I have this idea that Ennis was well-liked by most people. He was polite, hard working, pretty smart in a practical way, loyal, and discreet. He was so scared and caught up in his fear of being outed that he probably didn't see or understand how lovable he was, and he probably didn't want to show too much of himself for fear he would display his true nature. That's why he kept keeping people at arm's length or pushing them away.
Notice how he acts in the bar scene with Jack at the first of the movie. He looks so scared and hardly looks at Jack. There would have been no conversation had Jack not persisted.
by - crissttigaldames (Sat Apr 15 2006 17:52:06 ) Well, Ennis has no friens at all, it seems. Not famales either.
"Notice how he acts in the bar scene with Jack at the first of the movie. He looks so scared and hardly looks at Jack. There would have been no conversation had Jack not persisted."
I guess he wasn't looking at him and seemed scared because he was scared, because he felt atracted to him.
And yeas, I agree with that that DOn probably was some boss.
by - theopener80 (Sat Apr 15 2006 18:04:21 ) I think you are right on the money with this. I actually grew up socialising with few people at all, and the majority of people I associated with were women. I am still this way.
by - MtBecky (Sat Apr 15 2006 21:46:16 ) Yeah you are probably right Kellyjt...I still think he was probably close enough to him to be on friendly terms. I mean why would he loan him his cabin for a week if he were just an employee that rarely spoke. But all in all, I think Ennis, as I said was just a loner...and freinds whether male or female just weren't comfortable for him to be around...other than Jack.
by - elijah_tm (Sat Apr 15 2006 23:19:50 ) I think the saddest part of that is when losing Jack, he not only lost his lover but also his best friend.
by - arad-3 (Sat Apr 15 2006 23:48:55 ) You are so right on that! It's so painful to see Ennis going through this!
by - kula17 (Sat Apr 15 2006 23:53:05 ) Lol @ gay men trying to hit on you... I don't know if it's a "nature" that females have but perhaps also social conditioning that influences these type of reactions as well.
Anyway, thank you for your kind words. Happy Easter!
by - arad-3 (Sat Apr 15 2006 23:56:55 ) And to make matters worst when Ennis got the news of Jack's death it was even harder on him because he could never grieve for Jack only to himself, or acknowledge his love for Jack at anytime in his life.
by - monimm18 (Sun Apr 16 2006 00:13:59 ) MtBecky, I think you are right about Ennis being a loner. He had a lonely childhood, passed around from sister to brother, perceived as a burden, never really loved, never taught how to love, probably never making any friends.
I also think that Ennis lived only for his daughters and Jack. When away from Jack he simply survived, waiting, he was alive only when they were together. His life consists of waiting periods and in between, his meetings with Jack. The "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" he utters in the confrontation scene says it all.
He was the type who learned early in life to drink his beers alone.
by - maggiesmommy0399 (Sun Apr 16 2006 00:22:07 ) and think of this...he would never hear his name spoken by another human being..no one would speak of him because no one knew him...for the rest of his life, Jack would live only in Ennis' mind...the dreams talked about in the short story were so moving...he lived in his dreams and slept through his days...
how sad
by - arad-3 (Sun Apr 16 2006 00:52:42 )
UPDATED Sun Apr 16 2006 10:05:50 I so agree with you! When someone you love dies you need some closure, like a funeral, a gathering of friends and family, etc. You need to talk about the person and your love for them. Some people get it out by writing. Ennis was'nt a good writer so he could'nt even do that. Ennis had none of this. He did'nt even get to scatter Jacks ashes on Brokeback Mountaian. That might of helped too.
by - tillerman-1 (Sun Apr 16 2006 10:21:52 ) These thoughts are all so sad.
I think Ennis might have perfered his own company when away from Jack.
He was quiet and a loner. I've read alot of posts that seem tho think something was wrong with Ennis mentally.If this was the case maybe when he was with others he felt crowded, like there were to many people coming at him to fast and all at once.
His way of dealing with that kind of situation would be to stay off to the side and fold in on himself.
To us it would seem lonely to him it would be peace..
by - crissttigaldames (Sun Apr 16 2006 16:03:37 ) What scenes of Jack socializing? In that party with Randall?. I cannot remember another... except that oe at the bar. But I guess that because of his personality, we could assume he did socialize more.
by - arad-3 (Sun Apr 16 2006 16:20:28 ) He was at the social with Randall. He was out in front of crowds selling the tracters. He was suppose to be one of their best salesmen. He had more of a social life I think. Jack and his wife had money so I imagine they got out more than Ennis and his did.
by - crissttigaldames (Sun Apr 16 2006 17:36:16 ) Well, Laureen said he was "the only salesman". But, of course, that is a way of social interaction.
by - chrisja17 (Sun Apr 16 2006 18:57:36 ) I used to know an Ennis-type guy who had no friends either. This guy was a great guy but sooooo deep in the closet that he could never accept himself as a homosexual. He could not let himself get too close to others due to his fear of them finding out about his true nature. I kind of felt like a Jack to him: I cared about him and supported him, listened to him so that he would feel better about himself, but I was the only one he could trust. He could never open himself up to others.
by - taj_e (Sun Apr 16 2006 19:30:01 )
UPDATED Sun Apr 16 2006 21:37:07 His only male friends was perhaps his own brother and of course Jack
Homophobia got the best of Ennis. It crippled his social life. I'm actually glad he had girls, I just can't imagine if he had boy(s)
Funny that we never really see Bobby after Thanksgiving
Ennis had been blessed with all the women/girls around him. His mom/sister, Alma and the kids, Cassie. All I see is love for him and all he saw was fear
by - arad-3 (Mon Apr 17 2006 13:30:27 ) Yes I know what your saying!
by - wizayne (Mon Apr 17 2006 13:46:58 ) Ennis is definately a loner. I agree with the statement of him not having friends at all, male of female, up until cassie. What do you guys think about this: that maybe his relationship with Jack actually made him even more of a loner. I ask this because Ennis found that he could only really be himself when he was around Jack, but that "self" was taboo, evil, and wrong. It could get you killed right where you stand. So, therefore he became even more introverted over the years for the fear of someone finding out about him and Jack. Hence the whole, "you ever get the feeling people look at you and know" scene. What do you think guys?
by - arad-3 (Mon Apr 17 2006 15:52:51 ) I think your right on on that one. As much of a loner he was before Jack he definately became more of one after. One reasson is because he was afraid people looking at him knew. But I think another reason is is that you know that feeling when your in love with someone and you can't see them like you want to all you do is sit and dwell. You loose interest in your surroundings. Your thoughts are consumed by them. You loose interest in the things that used to make you get up out of bed before. Conversations with other people become almost impossible.
by - tillerman-1 (Mon Apr 17 2006 16:12:23 ) Yes I think your right -arad3- when your in love it does consume you to where you pretty much ignore everything around you.
He couldnt talk to anyone about Jack so he just kept it to himself.
Only coming alive when he was with the love of his life.
by - taj_e (Mon Apr 17 2006 19:39:26 ) I think this is one of the best questions out there that has been left out
Thanks arad-3, your world can be smaller or bigger when you're in love
by - arad-3 (Mon Apr 17 2006 19:52:06 ) " your world can be smaller or bigger when you're in love "
That's sooo true. Depending on how it is going it can be either way..good point!
by - arad-3 (Tue Apr 18 2006 13:33:19 ) Another thing happens with Ennis if you noticed. When his daughter went to visit him to tell him about the wedding... he did'nt even know that she had stopped seeing another guy she was seeing two years ago! Where has his mind been? Either he hasn't seen her in two years or he was just in own own world and was oblivious to everything around him.
by - catglith (Tue Apr 18 2006 14:03:22 )
UPDATED Tue May 2 2006 15:33:53 He was suffering from unbearable, crushing grief, i think when he saw his daughters he could barely function properly, let alone ask them questions about their love lives.
Besides, as a 19 year old, it's likely that Alma Jr didn't spend that much time with her father - she was building her own life, and Ennis did work alot. Also, when Jack died, i wouldn't be surprised if he had just cut himself off from the entire world for months, it seems like an Ennis thing to do, poor guy.
by - valarielee2002 (Tue Apr 18 2006 14:07:47 ) Just watched it again for the third time and the scene that gets me everytime is of Ennis sitting alone in the shabby sorry diner eating a piece of apple pie and he's so totally alone and you see he's just gone...so way out there and eating so quietly and not looking anywhere but at the pie. And he eats it so slowly and methodically. That scene depressed me so completely as it was a reminder of why I never eat alone, if I don't eat with somebody, I just don't eat. I think his girlfriend realized that he would always and forever be alone, even if he remarried or had another girlfriend. There are some people who will always be alone no matter what.
by - taj_e (Tue Apr 18 2006 14:16:42 ) I missed kellyjt post
***I have this idea that Ennis was well-liked by most people***
Ennis was actually surrounded by people who loves him too and all he sees was fear
The first bar scene, IMO was more of a shy Ennis
by - kthstewart (Tue Apr 18 2006 14:56:14 ) Even old L.D. Newsome and Lureen agreed that Jack was the best combine salesman they had at Newsome Enterprises. So unlike Ennis Jack was able to socialize both at work and at parties and charitable events. Jack's problem was that while socializing in Childress, Texas his mind was always on Ennis and the love he knew was waiting for him if he could catch Ennis at the right moment when he was not keeping his daughters or something else was occupying his time.
by - tillerman-1 (Tue Apr 18 2006 16:25:38 ) kthstewart
** Unlike Ennis Jack was able to socialize both at work and at parties and charitable events. Jack's problem was that while socializing in Childress,Texas ---his mind was always on Ennis and the love he knew was waiting for him if he could catch Ennis at the right moment---- ***
I like that......
by - wizayne (Tue Apr 18 2006 16:36:42 )
OMG...i just realized because of what you just said catglith, that Alma is the same age as Ennis and Jack were when they met! And she's getting married! The life that Ennis and Jack could only wish for! I know that doesn't follow this thread, but , wow!
by - arad-3 (Tue Apr 18 2006 16:45:04 ) everything that all you guys bring up about Ennis makes me love him even more and more!
by - karan-13 (Tue Apr 18 2006 17:02:58 ) I think Ennis and Jake were the same both loners. Jake had no male friends when he had won the rodeo he was alone up the bar he tried to make friends with the clown, but his offer of a drink was knocked back the clown gave him his money back and went to play pool looking around the bar all the guys were in groups or chattin up girls.
Randall does all the flirting with Jack not the other way round. Although Jack seems so much more confident like Ennis i get the impression he is always alone.
by - catglith (Tue Apr 18 2006 17:10:48 ) So do i. Heartbreakingly sad though. Poor Jack.
by - jlilya (Tue Apr 18 2006 17:22:25 ) I think you are right, notice the two old farmers who call him a pissant. LD didn't like him either, made disparaging remarks around him. I don't think Jack was as shy or as self-loathing as Ennis. I think he was confident enough to move in social circles, but I doubt he ever really made close friends especially with men. Like you said the bar scene with the clown is a good example.
