Jack and Ennis, Psyche and Eros, Gary and Malina
by retropian (Fri Apr 6 2007 06:33:30 )
Hi Gary and Malina.
This is a wonderful thread. I'm so happy that even now such new observations and ideas continue to be generated. As Malina knows, I'd practically given up on that. I'm glad I still come to these boards. I guess I'm an addict, but what a wonderful addiction. I remember an earlier poster asking if Jack and Ennis are mythological, and the OP certainly answers in the affirmative. I really need to brush up on my mythology because I'm not familiar with the myth of Eros and Psyche.
I have just this past weekend picked up a couple of Joseph Campbell books; 'Thou art That' in which he "re-examines the rightful function of Judeo-Christian symbols: as keys to spiritual understanding and mystical revelation. "And "Pathways to Bliss" where he "examines the personal psychological side of myth and anchors its symbolic wisdom to the individual, applying the most poetic mythic metaphors to the challenges of our daily lives." I wonder what he would have made of BBM?
However, just last night I started reading "Jung' s Struggle with Freud" by George B. Hogenson and I'd like to quote from the preface because it coincidently discusses, briefly, Freud and Jung's differences in their views of the role of mythology. I think it relates nicely to the topic of this thread.
"For both men the role of myth took on paramount importance for the theories of the psyche....Myth of course, was supposedly banished by the Enlightenment, and the orthodox reading of Freud is that he continues the Enlightenment process of overcoming myth......Jung did not think human beings could live without myth and that became the theme of his life work... Myth on this reading is one important way, if not the important way, in which human beings comprehend the world around them. To inhabit the world by recourse to Myth - and related behaviors such as ritual - is to be human. Myth, Jung says, is part of the organism. To deny its importance is to seek a disembodied idealization of the mind like that first posited at the beginning of the Enlightenment.
The other side of this point of view is that some idealized rationality alone cannot constrain the working of myth in our lives and in our institutions. Rationality, which, when applied to human behavior, becomes modern economics and its derivatives, is unquestionably also a mean for providing cognitive structure, and it has certainly been used by human beings to comprehend their world all along. The problem of the Enlightenment apotheosis of rationality is that is seeks to drive out all other forms of world comprehension. Jung's argument is that such an attempt to get rid of myth, to demythologize, is an invitation to neurosis, if not psychosis. This is where Jung is directly at variance with Freud. Freud's theory sees the continuing presence of myth as
indicative of a fundamental, indeed primordial, psychopathology. Jung sees the well ordered but continued presence of myth as an indication of psychological health. Attempts to eliminate myth from our lives are invitations to psychopathology...if a particular way of interacting with the world has been around for a long time, as myth has been, it is probably there for a reason."
Jung of course was a huge influence on Campbell. But, what I want to add is that we have now discussed, in previous threads, Brokeback Mountain's Religious symbolism and Spiritual meanings, its Psychological import and meanings. And now it's Mythological connotations and have related all of these back to our individual lives. Someone pointed out long ago (J. Campbell perhaps?) that Cinema is modern cultures mode of expressing and mythologizing the human condition. Myth is eternal, and the same motif's are reworked and restyled through human generations, but the core meanings remain the same, because the human mind and psyche remains the same.
I think relating Jack and Ennis to Eros and Psyche is brilliant. In reference to BBM's covert Christian motif's, Malina observed that Annie P. has recast the Christ story anew, without 2000 years of baggage, allowing us to experience that story anew. I think Gary's OP adds another layer, and allows us another insight to BBM. BBM as a door into the mythic dimension. I had always seen the Christian symbolism, but had always wondered if BBM can be related to pre-Christian mythologies, and Gary has done just that. As Jung would hold, this is an example of mythology reasserting itself in our culture despite the view of some that we live in a post-mythological age. It kind of makes me feel special that I am one of those who are at the point in my life to at least begin an understanding (I hope) of this phenomenon.
Re: Jack and Ennis, Psyche and Eros, Gary and Malina
by garycottle (Fri Apr 6 2007 11:08:51 )
Thanks retropain. I studied religion and philosophy in college, and since I went to a public university--WVU--the study of religion was approached from a neutral, purely academic standpoint. No one was required or expected to express any kind of faith. Because of this there was no clear distinction made between Christianity and other religions, or even classical mythology. No one said this one was true and should be looked at differently.
One of my professors defined myth as a story which bears a divine truth. The word myth is sometimes used to refer to a lie or a misconception, and that's because so many of these stories that are taken as sacred, or was once seen as sacred don't hold up to objective examination. But what many fail to understand is that a story does not have to be literally true to contain wisdom.
I was raised as a fundamentalist Baptist here in southern West Virginia, so it came as a shock when I started studying religion in a detatched way, as someone who wasn't professing a particular faith, and learned that there was a large number of Christians out there who didn't think the Bible was infallible or that the more fantastic elements contained therein were literally true.
This gave me a whole new appreciation of the religion that I had so recently rejected. I began to look at it in a whole new light, not as a supposed factual account of history that didn't hold much water on closer inspection, but as a kind of poetry that is pointing at truths that can't be said directly. However, I'm still not comfortable with refering to myself as a Christian, mainly because that would seem to detract from the imporance of other traditions, and I don't want to do that.
It seems to me that all of these mythologies--and I think the Christian story is a mythological story--are profoundly rich resources to draw on if you want to understand the cultures from which they came. And when you stop demanding that they be factual, you soon learn that their messages are often relevant to your own life.
You mentioned that Jung beleived that something that has been around for so long was probably important to our well-being. I agree with Jung. Mythology, and stories in general, and of course movies, too, are important ways human beings try to understand themselves and the greater world. We all know that Jack and Ennis aren't real people. We all know that they were never real people, not in the sense that Abraham Lincoln was a real person, or Lord Byron was a real person, but BBM is pregnat with meaning for many of us, and we know that Jack and Ennis are substantive even if not corporeal, because we see ourselves in them, and their experiences are our experiences. They help us make sense of our own lives.
Re: Jack and Ennis, Psyche and Eros, Gary and Malina
by retropian (Sat Apr 7 2007 06:29:16 )
Hi Gary.
I agree with you completely. I think it was Jung's goal, and also that of Joseph Campbell to relate Mythology to the individual. Your OP connects and reveals a contemporary story to its deeper motif's and meanings and offers insight into how we can relate those to our lives. I really enjoy your ideas in and of themselves in an academic sense but also as a means to further explore why BBM has had such an impact on me.
That film is the mode of mythological transmission today is evident in the popularity of films such as Star Wars, which Campbell had cited as an example of the Hero Cycle prior to his death, and Lord of the Rings: another Hero Cycle, and he believed, and I agree, that the popularity of films like that have as more to do with the mythological motif's they present than with special effects. Your uncovering of BBM's mythological underpinnings I think highlights another possible reason why BBM has struck such a devastating chord with so many people. What I find really interesting is BBM's impact on society and on the individual. Unlike Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings which presents the Hero Cycle BBM as you've revealed, points to different myths related to the psychology of love. The Hero Cycle films are so popular because they relate to the psychological needs and aspirations of young men, who make up a huge segment of the movie going and DVD buying population. The mythology in BBM unfortunately doesn't have such a broad appeal, but I think that we who "get it" are more aware and attuned to our own inner lives, and more capable of exploring BBM's effects.
I have a B.A. in Anthropology from Arizona State. but I almost majored in religious studies. I was still under the sway of Campbell and Jung, but left them a while back. Now my interest in their ideas and re-emerged. I was not raised in a particularly religious household and essentially became an agnostic around age 11. I refused to go to church because I never, even as a child accepted what I was told unquestioningly. And when I couldn't get adequate answers I determined it was all bunk. As an adult I'm still agnostic, but I think the experience of a mystical dimension is valid but completely internal and individual, no external supernatural forces at work, only the workings of the human mind.
We have discussed the cathartic effect of BBM on these boards; we have related the film and story to Classical Tragedy, as laid out by Aristotle in his Poetics. Its Christian symbolism, its mythological connotations and have always related these back to us as individuals. Like you said "Mythology, and stories in general, and of course movies, too, are important ways human beings try to understand themselves and the greater world."
Re: Jack and Ennis, Psyche and Eros, Gary and Malina
by garycottle (Sat Apr 7 2007 10:47:57 )
retropain, thanks so much for sharing part of your story with us. I enjoyed reading about your discovery of myth very much. I too was influenced by Joseph Campbell. I've spent many hours pouring over his The Masks of God series. I think he effectively showed that although myths come from a particular time and place, and therefore carry with them cultural baggage, their underlying themes have universal appeal, for those patient enough to figure them out at any rate.
But for most people the story is in the details, and because of that some see treasure where others see junk. When we strongly relate to a story, such as BBM, we see ourselves in it. And that's why someone devoted to a particular story is so offended when someone else doesn't "get it." We take the dismissal personally. To reject this movie we love, or novel, or whatever, is to reject us.
I got a huge kick out of reading a post on another thread the other day written by someone upset because, according to him/her, BBM fans act like fundamentalist Christians, in that if anyone expresses a negative opinion about the film he/she is instantly painted as this awful person who has turned his/her back on The Book. That is so rich. When we see a film or read a story that we strongly identify with it's a spiritual experience. There's nothing wrong with that. That's what's supposed to happen. That's what we're after when we bother to read stories and watch films.
Re: Jack and Ennis, Psyche and Eros, Gary and Malina
by garycottle (Sun Apr 8 2007 20:46:23 )
retropain,
I just thought of something. If you're interested in a contemporary take on the hero's journey you might like to read Summerland by Michael Chabon. It's a great story about a thirteen-year-old boy who is coming to grips with his mother's recent death. He spends a lot of time playing baseball even though he's not very good at it. It's a fun read with all the classic markers: a hero who has lost faith, a wise old sage who beckons him to take an adventure, but warns him at the same time, an avenue of trials where the hero's ego is sorely tested, a difficult task that can only be accomplished if the hero gives himself over to a higher power, and a return home with the hero's faith renewed.
Gary
by retropian (Tue Apr 10 2007 02:25:08 )
I will check "Summerland" out. thanks for the recommendation. My only literary recommendation I can think of right now is "Confederacy of Dunces" by John Kennedy O'Toole. It is Genius! And wicked funny!
Re: Gary
by garycottle (Thu Apr 12 2007 19:22:30 )
I just noticed this, retropain. Thanks for the recomendation. I've not read Confederacy of Dunces. I'll look it up.
Thanks,
Gary
Freud, Jung, Psyche, Eros, Ennis, and Jack
by malina-5 (Mon Apr 9 2007 14:21:52 )
Hi Retropian -
Good to 'see' you!
I enjoyed reading the passages you quoted on Freud and Jung and how they regarded mythology, particularly as it affirmed my bias against Freud and toward Jung, which is not very mature of me to have as I have not read either at anything much beyond a first-year university level, and then little bits I've picked up here and there.
Limited as that is, though, my reaction to Freud (and to the suggestion, which I hadn't heard before, that we live in a 'post-mythological' (!!) age) is... how unspeakably arrogant!
Of course we are affected by mythology. 'Affected' is a gross understatement. These are the story-cycles that flow in our veins, or as good as.
The danger, as I see it, is that attempting to live in a world free of, or 'beyond', or 'post' mythology, which leads to a poor understanding of mythology, is the sterile and disconnected existence that would result. And, of course, we do already see that result. One of the side-effects appears to be the fertile ground society provides for crass or inferior storytelling, which nevertheless is probably better than nothing, with regard to its effect on the human psyche. I believe that we are hungry for it. Look at the way things like "The Secret" are becoming cultural phenomena! (well, I have nothing much against "The Secret" and what it purports to tell people, except that the whole message is so...incredibly... recycled! Shirley McClaine was saying the same thing in about 1986... countless others since then... and suddenly it's the 'secret' of the ages?? How shortsighted we become once mythology is denigrated! )
Reason alone tries to become our 'grounding'... and as a result, we HAVE no grounding. That is not a scientific opinion - that's just how it 'feels' to me.
Except, there is a human impulse to find that which we need and lack. Case in point... the life-transformation that BBM has brought about for many of us. It's 'just' a movie... it 'shouldn't' have that effect. But it isn't, and it does.
And it doesn't surprise me at all that there are pre-Christian motifs and myths, as well as Christian ones, in BBM. Christianity DID end up being a 'divide', it did change things, in ways I don't have time to go into right now, but that this discussion is making me think about. But that doesn't mean there wasn't a certain continuity in the myths of the pre-Christian and Christian eras.
I love the application of the Eros and Psyche myth to Jack and Ennis, because I think that the very act of applying it, and veiwing it in that light, adds something fascinating to our understanding of what was going on between Jack and Ennis.
Maybe it even adds a layer. From a rational, post-mythological viewpoint, Jack's 'journey', his quest to love and be with Ennis, is a little... unhealthy, isn't it? Well... I live in the therapy capital of Canada. It's very west coasty here, we're all well versed in what 'makes sense' in terms of relationships. I can't even tell you how many of my friends reacted to BBM on precisely that level: seeing something irrational, unhealthy, and co-dependent in Jack's unwavering attachment to Ennis. And I think - okay, it may be valid to see that in the story, but to be unable to get past it and go deeper is a bit... well, tragically limited, isn't it?
Christian mythology adds a layer. There is a sacrificial quality to Jack's love, it heals Ennis, and that makes it into something beautiful and special and sacred... it allows us to transcend the merely rational, and is a big improvement, IMO. But I am thinking now that the Christian lens also carries its own limitations, and that we can go further...
By 'further', I guess I mean further into wholeness. I feel, at this moment in my life, more aware of the beauty and the merit of the Christian mythology than I have been in years, maybe ever. But I do also think something about it lacks wholeness, and separates us from wholeness, and that in fact it always did that, and perhaps in doing so percipitated the 'post-mythological' age... oh.. but that's something i want/ need to think further about...
Okay, the Christian lens gives us a wonderful way of viewing BBM, but the application of pre-Christian mythology, like Eros and Psyche... look what it does!
The 'rational' view tells us Jack is wrong-headed and has little idea of how to build a satisfying life for himself... I know, that's a big statement to throw out there, and I can attempt to justify it later if anyone wants... it's not what I believe myself, but it is an attitude I see all around me...
The Christian view tells us that the individual good is subordinate to the greater good, and that insofar as Ennis was healed by Jack's love, Jack was not 'wrong-headed' to love him, and that takes us a lot further....
But the classical view tells us... it's all a quest for wholeness, for Psyche/Jack particularly! In the Eros/Psyche myth, it was necessary for Psyche to love someone so elusive, and to lose him, and to go to all the lengths she had to go to get him back. Sometimes it is necessary to go even into the underworld, with no guarantee of getting back.
In Christianity, the individual good is subordinate to the collective. In classical mythology, I think, BOTH are inextricable from one another. And at that point, it all converges. The 'hero' has to go beyond society to obtain and integrate into society something that was previously lacking. Psyche cannot fall in love with someone 'ordinary' and knowable and already integrated in society - no, she has to go 'beyond', to love someone hidden from her, someone who, reason dictates, might even be a 'beast'... and when the interplay between societal expectation (her sisters' demand that she look at him to ascertain that he isn't a 'beast') and her own 'marriage' to that which is 'beyond' results in her loss of him - and of the corresponding part of her soul, her self - it is necessary for her to go beyond the boundaries of the human world completely in order to re-bond and re-integrate with that which was lost. In the end, the outcome is positive, and it is Psyche who, with divine help, ties all these pieces together. To her benefit. Her world... her self... expands to take in what is new. It is creation.
Jack, loving Ennis.... Jack going beyond the boundaries of what his society provided, into the unknowable, the dangerous, the dark... because ultimately it was necessary for HIM, as well as for society, as well as for Ennis. That's what the application of Eros/Psyche to Jack and Ennis makes me think of...
...beauty's religion
And its Christened me with wonder
Hi Malina
by retropian (Tue Apr 10 2007 02:32:48 )
I want to let you know I just read your post. It's great as always, I'm going to ponder it and post a decent reply later (I've been drinking tonight, TEE-HEE.)
LOL.
Re: Freud, Jung, Psyche, Eros, Ennis, and Jack
by retropian (Thu Apr 12 2007 06:16:22 )
Hi Malina.
I reread you post and I can't think of a thing to add to it but this: I really like how you point out that Psyche's story is another variation of the Hero cycle. In regards to Jack and Ennis the Hero either willingly, even avidly seeks his adventure i.e. Jack's seeking the Sweet Life with Ennis, seeking that which will make him whole. Or, in the case of Ennis the Hero refuses the adventure, at least at first. Normally the Hero reluctantly accepts his adventure then makes it hislife's quest, but Ennis refuses, and that is his tragedy. Jack's tragedy is that he fails to get Ennis to join him in the adventure. "But *beep* has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way."
Re: Jack and Ennis, Psyche and Eros
by loneleeb3 (Thu Apr 12 2007 12:29:45 )
OMG! That is it in a nutshell!
What insight you have and to be able to lay it out like that.....
WOW.
That was so beautifully and eloquently put.
Hi Lee
by retropian (Thu Apr 12 2007 18:07:47 )
UPDATED Sun Apr 15 2007 14:57:57
Thanks for the compliment. I see you are brand new to the Boards. Stick around. You'll find that discussing BBM provides much intellectual stimulation and emotional satisfaction. Not only here on IMDB but also check out Davecullen.com and Bettermost.com. You'll find welcoming communities of people who have been profoundly affected by this film. You may even meet a few in your area, I have a new friend as a result.
