Re: Jack, How Could You?
by samrim-1 (Thu Jun 15 2006 06:19:40 ) "We could have had a good life together.....but you didn't want it Ennis. So what we got now is Brokeback Mountain, thats all we got boy, F..king all. I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest." Jack Twist
Thanks a bunch for the quote, set me snivelling again! J***s, that story!
Sam
Re: Jack, How Could You?
by littlewing1957 (Thu Jun 15 2006 08:53:02 ) <<Thanks a bunch for the quote, set me snivelling again! J***s, that story!>>
I know, Sam. I guess this is the reason I read so much fanfic. I need an alternative universe. I need to see them together, somhow, someway.
Re: Jack, How Could You?
by NewHorizons37 (Mon Jun 19 2006 05:42:37 ) You notice he doesn't really admit to why he went to Mexico, just that he's been. He lets Ennis assume that the reason is because of what Mexico 'has for boys like him'.I think he's just blowing off some of his frustration.
Actually during the whole argument he never admits to it, he just explains a justifiable reasons for going.
This is interesting, because my sense of that conversation is that Jack does admit to it. Not in those words, no, but so much in this movie is implied, not explicitly stated.
Ennis basically asks him, "Have you been to Mexico? Because if you have, I know what you were doing there." So when Jack says yes, he is admitting he went, and why. He didn't merely "let Ennis assume the reason". He knew what Ennis assumed is the truth, and was admitting to it. That's why he defiantly asks, "is that a *beep* problem?" And his long speech is to justify it.
Re: Jack, How Could You?
by taj_e (Wed Jun 14 2006 22:07:11 ) UPDATED Wed Jun 14 2006 22:10:41
hi littlewing
IMO Jack had no reason to 'lie' anymore, infact the final lake scene is about all truths and lies exposed
I realised that this is 'climax' and of course it was
If Brokeback Mountain is 'alive' it is about time it 'erupted'
Jack had been tolerant most of the time. Everytime he brought up suggestions, thoughts of a good life Ennis would easily shoved all of them. The one time Jack actually did erupt was when he said 'if you want to live you f miserable life so be it, I was just thinking out loud'
This time Jack didn't, he got brutal about truth and truth always hurt Ennis (and of course Jack himself). Instead of giving excuses or denying Mexico, Jack admitted it. That was 'how bad it gets', how their relationship isn't going nowhere, how all they had was Brokeback Mountain
No his response wasn't about justifying what he did. He wasn't saying he had reason why he cheated on Ennis. He was telling Ennis that's the truth and had enough about lying to him and to himself. He can't stand it as much as Ennis can't too
And 'how could they' both continue with such relationship?
Ennis dragging himself like a zombie and look forward to the not so often trips. And Jack admitting to it, helplessly. Someone has to stop it, and sadly it 'took' Jack's life to end it
Brokeback Mountain erupted and it stopped. Nothing to 'fear' anymore
'Get along little doggies, get along'
Littlewing, I had the opposite reaction.
by LauraGigs (Wed Jun 14 2006 22:47:26 ) UPDATED Thu Jun 15 2006 11:29:42
When Jack said "Yeah I been to Mexico — that a f ^ckin' problem?" I was like, Go Jack, go!
Just think: Jack had always acquiesced to Ennis' comfort zone — from the moment they first saw each other in front of Aguirre's trailer! Jack spent over half his life doing this — tiptoeing around Ennis' emotions, ego and fear — for fairly meager emotional rewards. By the lake scene, he'd had it. Now I love the character of Ennis and rooted for him too, but they were at the point where more untruths on Jack's part to spare Ennis' feelings weren't appropriate. Ennis was onto something (with his suspicions about Mexico), asked for the truth, and got it.
Great posts here. "...the final lake scene is about all truths and lies exposed". — Exactly.
Re: Jack, How Could You?
by agrawal_alka (Thu Jun 15 2006 03:17:06 ) Someone has to stop it, and sadly it 'took' Jack's life to end it.
Though it was clear that this story could not have a happy ending, it's horribly sad yet somewhat uplifting to realize that the relationship only ended when one of them died.
I think Jack had just had it with tiptoeing around Ennis' fears and finally told Ennis some unwelcome truths. Frankly Ennis had it coming. I realize they're both men, but even they have to talk about their relationship at some point! They'd been going on like this for 20 years...how long could they keep doing this? The last time they'd had a real talk about their future was right after the reunion when Jack was more understanding of Ennis' fears.
Re: Jack, How Could You?
by sicnarf60 (Thu Jun 15 2006 06:10:41 ) I have re-played the lake scene far more than any of the other scenes combined and I haven't really understood why - other than the acting is the best I've ever seen. There's just so much that is revealed in that scene and all of you have mentioned very good points. Although Jack spares Ennis from telling him about his affair with Randall, he does decide to tell him about going to Mexico. I'm quite sure they both understood what Jack does in Mexico because of the statement Ennis makes "I hear what they got in Mexico for boys like you". I think Jack is just so fed up and frustrated with hardly ever getting to see Ennis that he wants to generate some kind of reaction from him that will maybe make Ennis see that once or twice a year is not enough and indeed that is how Jack justifys his trips to Mexico. As I said, Jack does hold back because admitting to having casual sex with hookers is much less hurtfull than finding out about an ongoing love affair. I don't think Jack expected the reaction he ended up getting and I think that's one of the reasons I have watched this scene so many times. Here's Ennis, who maintains an unemotional, unfeeling, tough guy exterior, collapsing to the ground in tears!! That just floored me the very first time I watched this movie. I couldn't believe Ennis falling to his knees in tears like that. I don't think Jack expected the news about Mexico to crush Ennis like it did either. If he had, maybe he wouldn't have admitted to Mexico. Anyway, I just find this scene so incredibly compelling. I'm glad you came up with this question littlewing.
Re: Jack, How Could You?
by littlewing1957 (Thu Jun 15 2006 08:50:17 )
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This is the scene that sort of defines the entire movie for me. And I don't know exactly why. But whenever I think of BBM (all the time, really) I see Jack and Ennis standing there, fighting but not really fighting. I guess the truly amazing performances, coupled with the fact that these 2 are finally communicating, well, it is compelling. I love this scene!
Re: Jack, How Could You?
by taj_e (Mon Jun 19 2006 07:00:09 ) UPDATED Mon Jun 19 2006 07:02:53
The last time they'd had a real talk about their future was right after the reunion when Jack was more understanding of Ennis' fears
True agrawal but Jack did actually try again and again to no avail
There is another real issue though (other than their future) and there has been discussion why they never really talk about it, about their sexuality being a 'queer'. Ennis had been trying to no avail too
Some blame Jack as not being a good listener as everytime Ennis brought up about, 'Lureen suspects?' 'Have you ever got the feeling that someone knew?' And Jack just shakes his head, 'nope' (Ennis on the other hand always shoved off Jack's notion about their 'future')
And finally Jack said, 'yes I'm a queer, no need to suspect anymore' (when he admitted about Mexico that is)
Ennis got the answer to his question about Jack's sexuality (about his too). And did Jack got his? About their future?
Yes he did. There's no future to their relationship. It isn't going anywhere...
A couple more thoughts
by LauraGigs (Thu Jun 15 2006 07:35:25 ) UPDATED Fri Sep 22 2006 08:53:47
"I think Jack could have been more gentle with Ennis here."
If Ennis had phrased his question gently — something like: Listen Jack, somethin I've been wonderin about. You been to Mexico? (In a the same tone of voice in which he asked, You and Lureen. It's normal and all?) Jack would (and should) have answered honestly and gently.
But Ennis asked in a very accusatory, threatening tone. When someone asks a question that way — raising the confrontational level of the conversation — the other is almost obligated to answer at that level. Like a poker game: if one 'raises' the other 'meets'. As in, Oh yeah??? Yeah!!!
Could you picture Jack backing down at that point? He was too angry — I can't really blame him.
"Jack is saying he'll do whatever he wants, be with whomever he wants, and if Ennis objects, well, too bad!"
I don't exactly agree . . . If they'd had a relationship with more contact (and as someone aptly pointed out, more expressiveness from Ennis) Jack would never have thought of seeing anyone else. (Whether this was something Ennis could give is another question.)
Re: A couple more thoughts
by littlewing1957 (Thu Jun 15 2006 08:47:10 ) <<I don't exactly agree . . . If they'd had a relationship with more contact (and as someone aptly pointed out, more expressiveness from Ennis) Jack would never have even thought of seeing anyone else. (Whether this was something Ennis could give is another question.)>>
No, I don't think Jack is actually saying this, it is just that I felt his response was rather unfeeling. I'm just wondering if it was Jack's anger talking, and perhaps, in the back of his mind he is thinking, "You don't have any papers on me, never even told me how you feel in almost 20 years. I would never even look at another dude if you just be with me, but nooooo!"
Okay, I'm rambling, but you get what I'm saying don't you?
Re: A couple more thoughts
by kalaevans_30126 (Thu Jun 15 2006 08:53:04 ) Bottom Line: Jack had sexual needs and he needed them fulfilled. He loved Ennis and he always have.
Re: A couple more thoughts
by littlewing1957 (Thu Jun 15 2006 09:02:04 ) And the fact that Jack sought sexual release with others in no way means he didn't love Ennis.
Re: A couple more thoughts
by iwritewell (Thu Jun 15 2006 08:57:15 ) Picture this from Jack's persepective for 20 years the relationship was on Ennis's terms. He could offer ( even himself as in the tent) but Ennis was always the final decision maker . He wouldn't even give him the goodbye he needed after thier first time and faught him on the mountain when he tried to show affection in thier final( they thought) moments alone together. Ennis called the shots . In no time between the two of them was Jack allowed to expect more. He was fed up He lived in Texas and TJ is usually frequented by Texans like it's little Texas but it was clearly years before he finally bit the bullet . . See his face when he finally did go to Mexico ? that was a face that says " screw this !" not " WOOHOO YEAH BABY" .
More over Jack was tired of being Ennis's dirty little secret. That is not a title a person seeks . Jack was willing to be with Ennis , be his and damn the storm and he was rejected , repeatedly. THis was after yet another rejection and the question pulled a " are you crazy?" response out of Jack. If he would have been any kinder , any softer , It would have been fake .
Re: A couple more thoughts
by samrim-1 (Thu Jun 15 2006 12:24:01 ) More over Jack was tired of being Ennis's dirty little secret
I hadn't thought of that, and I admire your comment a lot. I tend to see things from 'poor' Ennis' point of view, but increasingly you, and others are making me see Jack's situation too! All those years of burning tyre rubber to go to Ennis all the time, even in the face of Lureen's criticism, no wonder he eventually cracked. In the book Annie P has Jack say "he was doing all right but he missed Ennis bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies". He couldn't manage on a coupla high altitude *beep* twice a year, like Ennis could. Even here in the North of England I know affaires like that, where one partner's promiscuity is studiously ignored by the less sex-obsessed partner. Much as I love and even pity Ennis, he was totally unfair to Jack wasn't he, even though he apparently couldn't help himself! I wonder too in how many 'straight' relationships the partners have unequal needs, and what pressures that creates.
Sam
This is how bad it was...
by iwritewell (Thu Jun 15 2006 09:04:28 ) This is a quick thought ( sorry guys whne i get writing I get thinking) even Jack's wife was wondering why the hell Ennis was so immovable. When your spouse ( who I think suspected but already checked out of thier marriage pretty much) is saying" damn can't your friend come see you ?" it's gotten pretty bad.
Re: This is how bad it was...
by littlewing1957 (Thu Jun 15 2006 09:12:35 ) Hey, your thought are great. I really appreciate your posts. Very thoughtful, keep them coming.
I understand what you are saying about Lureen, but Jack explained that rather well, I believe. He told her that Ennis didn't have the means to make a trip to Texas (Ennis barely had a pot to piss in). I think even one trip to Texas would have really hurt Ennis financially, and he was much too proud to have Jack pay his way. But then again, knowing Ennis, he probably wouln't have made the trip even if he did have the means, LOL!
Re: This is how bad it was...
by beeplebrain (Thu Jun 15 2006 09:56:10 ) knowing Ennis, he probably wouln't have made the trip even if he did have the means"
sadly, little wing, this statement really rings clear. everything about ennis' life was a blanket for him to hide behind.. if it wasn't his wife, it was his daughters..if it wasn't his daughters, it was the money.. ennis was afraid and, no matter what, be would never have done for jack what he wanted because of it..
Re: This is how bad it was...
by littlewing1957 (Thu Jun 15 2006 10:10:30 ) Yes, and I think this shows that Ennis was depressed. A lot of people disagree, but he displayed all the classic signs. I know I am getting OT, here, but Ennis didn't want to do anything. He woudn't improve his financial situation, he didn't want to go anywhere, do much of anything. His trips with Jack once or twice a year were his joy, but he was even conflicted about that!
Re: This is how bad it was...
by patsnnott (Thu Jun 15 2006 10:33:58 ) Of course Ennis was depressed. He said, "when you have nothing, you don't need nothing". He had a major emotional trauma as a child, and we are lead to believe from his statements about the event that his father could have been the culprit. That type of parenting will screw up a person, then pile on the abandonment issues, (his parent's death, his brother and sister leaving him on his own), his poverty and lack of social interaction and education, his lack of job skills, etc. He was "nothing, nowhere" for a long time before he expressed it to Jack. Ennis is a major therapy case. I'm not a psychologist or therapist, but I have read a lot of books about dysfunction and co dependency issues, and Ennis's childhood had all the triggers. Then he finds out he's got homosexual feelings. That must have been the thing to really turn him inside himself.
...yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.
Re: This is how bad it was...
by iwritewell (Thu Jun 15 2006 10:21:14 ) Ennis was gay (I say this becuase alot of people try to make it out that Ennis only slept with Jack because he was not really gay but a victim) and , silent and sensitive , probably from childhood. You know that because it is NOT NORMAL for a father to show his sons ( sons only BTW) what happens when you are gay and in Montana. His father more than likely noticed his soft spoken sensitive son and say" oh Hell" and saught to put that fear in him. That fear followed him and he was steeped in it all his life . so yes , he never could be open and honest . would not have ever given Jack the " time " he needed . His last reasons for denial were coming to an end as the girls were nearly adults. WE CAN ONLY SPECULATE WHAT WAS GOING TO BE THE NEW REASON WHY NOT.
Re: This is how bad it was...
by samrim-1 (Sat Jun 17 2006 11:39:08 ) That fear followed him and he was steeped in it all his life .
hello jwritewell, I hadn't thought of it, but your probably right. Ennis childhood sensitivity had been warped by his btutal (or inept anyway) father, so his lifelong fear left him always needing excuses not to do things. And too his inertia, and unwillingness to act positively, does sound like the action of a sad lonely depressive doesn't it. Best Wishes, Sam
Re: This is how bad it was...
by sicnarf60 (Thu Jun 15 2006 10:37:37 ) Sometimes when I watch this movie I get so angry at Ennis. I mean ok, he had his upbringing to contend with but come on. Jack was always so there for him and surely he knew that Jack loved him. I never stay angry with Ennis for very long because I can only imagine how difficult the whole situation must have been. I'm a straight female who grew up in the 60's and 70's and I don't ever remember even hearing about same sex attraction - there was no such thing back then. Of course it existed but it must have been so well hidden that it seemed like it didn't exist - it wasn't at all in the main stream of things. So I have no direct experience to go on even though I was around in those days, therefore, I can only imagine how bad it must have been for the both of them. Anyway, this lake scene has always bothered me because of the look on Jack's face at the end of the scene. What does that look mean? I really try hard to believe that he was not going to quit Ennis.
Re: This is how bad it was...
by go76 (Thu Jun 15 2006 11:16:28 ) I really try hard to believe that he was not going to quit Ennis.
This look bothered me too. Quitting Ennis? IMO - Never. I think he quited only on his illusions there could be EVER, ANYTHING enough to give, to sacrifice, to devote just to make Ennis want be with him in the real life, beyond their fishing trips.
He was giving up. On his hope someday to have a life with the one he loves. On idea his love would be able - and enough! - to beat Ennis' old ghosts and fears. On the illusion Ennis will admit what they got IS love. On desire to hear at least once "I love you", or "I don't care how things might look, only YOU matter", or at least once he to come first - before all other circumstances. And most of all, on the fallacy that love conquers all. Jack was giving up on evrything he made us loving him - his jolly, his hopefulness, his unbeatable faith in this Ennis and he actualy COULD make it together FOR REAL.
He was giving up on everything, but never giving up on Ennis. For the last 20 years he has built his life around Ennis, despite living so far away. It was the only constant core of his schedule, the only unchagable settlement, the only reservaton never to be cancelled. Giving up on Ennis would've be like giving up on life. Your life might not be what you've wanted, but is the only way for you to be... alive...
"If you can't fix it, Jack, you've got to stand it". And he did learn his lesson well. "As long as we can ride it" was a metaphor for "forever".
So he did.
God, I needed a cigarette after that. And I don't even smoke.
