Author Topic: Deliberate Classical References and another 'Jack, I swear' -- by CaseyCornelius  (Read 42557 times)

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Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:03:06 )   


UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 13:32:50
Brokeback Mountain is becoming an emotional touchstone and a singular experience for practically everyone who sees it. Its depth of expression, detail, and ability to inculcate itself into the unconsciousness of almost everyone who experiences it gives the film the distinction of a truly innovative art work which taps something powerful and myth-based.



SPOILERS

Having seen the film three times, each time more overwhelmed by its brilliance on every level, I've been especially struck by Ennis's visit to Jack's family home in Lightning Flat to retrieve Jack's ashes with the intent to scatter them on Brokeback. Ang Lee's choice of set-design, framing of the action, blocking of the actors, line readings and lighting all make this eerie, stark sequence visually distinct from anything else in the film. It is all redolent of Classical myth and tragedy. Knowing that Ang Lee's background is in theater, it's not far-fetched to assume this is pointedly intentional. It was driving me crazy trying to identify a specific Classical reference until the following struck me.
I've been riffing intensely on this scene and the following may be an interpretive 'stretch', conflating a number of mythic references, but bear with me.

It seems to me to most clearly echo Virgil's "The Aeneid" and the portion in Book VI where Aeneas descends to Hades. Ennis [= Aeneas?] undertakes a 'labor' much as Aeneas in descending to Hades/Hell to recover the ashes of his Beloved Jack and release his spirit from Tartarus where the Sons of Men are imprisoned.

The interior of Jack's family home is like a sepulchre - white-washed, bare, spare, bereft of any ornament, drained of color with a ghostly, unearthly glow illuminating the kitchen through the windows.

Jack's Mother is the Sybil who allows Ennis/Aeneas passage past Cerberus the guardian of the underworld--Jack's Father- the adamantine, unyielding judge of what is meant to be acceptable and allowable.
Jack's Mother/the Sybil mollifies/drugs the intractable Cerberus/Jack's Father with a sweet cake as in "The Aeneid". She offers the same 'cherry cake' to Ennis/Aeneas along with a cup of coffee. Ennis accepts the latter [as an aid to illumination?], rejecting the former, hence, is able to partake of her offer to see Jack's room and the icons and remnants of his life --"I kept his room like it was when he was a boy. I think he appreciated that. You are welcome to go up in his room, if you want."

Ennis, 'undrugged' by the same cherry cake is able to fully experience the earthly remnants of his beloved Jack's life, the details of whose life he has never fully known or realized, which have been protected and maintained in his boyhood room by his true guardian/Mother.

Ennis ascends the deathly, bare stairs to Jack's room where he finds the only true repository of any of the memories of his childhood, the core of his personality. The bare room looking out over the dusty plain and down "the only road" he had every known is heart-breaking. A simple cot for a bed. The rest of the room consists of reminders of Jack's failed dreams. A desk and chair where he failed to make an impression as a scholar. A cowboy figurine is a mocking reminder of his failure to achieve his dream of becoming a cowboy himself. The small .22 hanging in a wooden rack is a mockery of his lack of marksmanship evident earlier in the film. The only thing representing anything of value he might have achieved is the iconic/cult object of his true and abiding love for Ennis - the two shirts hidden away from the prying eyes of Jack's father and the rest of the world. Only his Mother would have been party to their significance.

Jack's Mother/the Sibyl allows him passage out of the house/Hades with the shirts, placing them in a paper bag for transport, even as the Father/Cerberus states adamantly that Jack is "goin' in" the family plot. The final act of hatred of the Father toward his only son is to deny Jack's last wish for his remains to be united with Brokeback, the only reminder of a time and place which gave him his greatest joy in life.

Ennis's final words of "Jack, I swear" echo those of Aeneas when confronted with the 'shade' or ghost of his beloved Dido who committed suicide after he abandoned her.
Aeneas says to Dido's ghost, "I swear by every oath that hell can muster, I swear I left you against my will. The law of God--the law that sends me now through darkness, bramble, rot and profound night--unyielding drove me; nor could I have dreamed that in my leaving I would hurt you so".

Ang Lee's brilliant final shot juxtaposes the closing closet door of Ennis's Brokeback shrine to Jack's eternal memory with the wind-swept fields of ripening golden grain visible through the trailer window and establishes a supreme ambiguity. Are the fields an image of renewal and hope OR an image of intractible inevitability? A symbol of the emotionally limited world which Ennis will inhabit the rest of his days, giving obeisance to the memory of Jack OR a foretaste of the 'Elysian fields' where Ennis/Aeneas will one day be re-united with his beloved?
With the deftness of the great, superior work of art that it is, Ang Lee leaves it to the viewer to answer the final riddle of Brokeback Mountain.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'

by - jmmgallagher (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:21:28 )   


Fantastic.

I love that people are thinking so hard about this film.

Annie Proulx's original short story had most of the elements you mention (Jack's mother's offer of the coffee and the cherry cake, Ennis's polite refusal of the cake, her invitation to him to visit Jack's room) but you are so utterly right when you say "Ang Lee's choice of set-design, framing of the action, blocking of the actors, line readings and lighting all make this eerie, stark sequence visually distinct from anything else in the film."

I will also say that the choices made by the actress who plays Jack's mother, Roberta Maxwell, are incredibly beautiful. Like the movie itself, she is absolutely haunting--the fear in her eyes when she looks at Jack's father, the evident gratitude she feels when Ennis accepts Jack's father's refusal without fuss. Her eyes are as luminous as Jack/Jake's eyes, and because of this, the scene is devastatingly effective and affecting.

Beautiful post.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - CowboyFever (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:29:32 )   


Speechless .. thank you for sharing


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - NYCx (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:29:33 )   


What a wonderfully thought-out post. Very insightful.

It's a very interesting analogy, especially the line, "nor could I have dreamed that in my leaving I would hurt you so."

Superb work! A+


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:45:30 )   


UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 12:30:06
I agree with you regarding Roberta Maxwell's meaningful, portentous readings of the lines and what she does with her eyes throughout -- it's a stunning, hallucinatory, devastating scene. I'd add the following observation regarding the camera work.

All of the kitchen scene's initial camera shots are at eye-level, the level of Jack's Father's steely, testy gaze as he judges his son's life and the relationship he had with Ennis. It's obvious the Father knew what Ennis meant to Jack and the ways in which Jack had pursued a forbidden love. The intransience of this forced, inexorable, compulsive camera angle shows that Jack's father/Cerberus is in control here as the "stud-duck".
Peter McRobbie, not incidentally, is also amazing in these extreme close-ups.

But, starting with a higher, comparitively 'jarring', noticeably contrasting, overhead shot of Ennis's head, Jack's Mother's bony hand enters the frame, and touches Ennis's shoulder, breaking the 'spell' of the Father's disdain and hatred for what his son was. She [as the screenplay directions indicate] has never been a part of her husband's life, but has endured the hatred which he feels for their only son.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - adamx013 (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:51:08 )   


Yes - I love it. I knew there was a reason that I loved and remembered that shot of Ennis from above. Great analysis!!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 12:05:20 )   


UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 15:22:09
jmmgallagher
Thank you for properly and justifiably giving credit to Annie Proulx for the initial creation of the telling images of the cherry cake, et al. You're absolutely correct--it's all there in the story. I didn't mean to credit them to Ang Lee. But, it is evidence of Ang Lee's brilliance that he took those mythic images and the tenor of Proulx's writing and 'drove them home' with his visual choices.
The use of color throughout the scene and the whole of the film is a work of genius as well. Numerous previous posts have commented on the color blue as being constantly associated with Jack.
The interior of Jack's family home is like a sepulchre - white-washed, bare, spare, bereft of any ornament, save the prominent crucifix in the kitchen [which we could extend into another whole discussion - the subject and theme of The Pentecost and Jack's mother's faith and her ultimate acceptance of her son's expression and object of love in Ennis]. The only color comes from the red of the preserved cherries in the cherry cake and the blue sweater which Jack's mother wears, the obvious source of the dominance of the color blue in the clothing he wears - the blue shirt, the blue parka about which he questions Lureen, wears on their camping trips, etc.

It's my hope that we could try to keep extending this fruitful discussion along. In total contrast to some of the sub-human rants and hateful messages which are being posted on this site.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - arike76 (Wed Dec 28 2005 12:16:08 )   


i'm totally blown away. great work with the classical references. glad i took the time to read this thread.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - naun (Wed Dec 28 2005 12:42:56 )
   
   
Your suggestion about the Dido and Aeneas reference is remarkably persuasive. In an earlier thread another poster made an observation that, in hindsight, appears to lend further support to it. Unfortunately the message has been deleted from the board, but here's part of what it said:

Right after the shot of Ennis sitting in the window, the camera cuts to a shot taken from deep inside Jack's closet - looking out through the closet and across the room toward Jack sitting at the window. It is as if Jack is looking out at Ennis.

I myself found the scene unsettling in the same way. It is as if there is another presence in the room -- the shade of Jack Twist.

Like you, I've been haunted by the look of the entire sequence in Jack's parents' home, and have appreciated reading your analysis of it. More, please.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 13:10:03 )   


naun
I had missed the earlier post, so thank you for this re-stating of the info. Along with the jarring change from the kitchen eye-level shots to the overhead shot of Ennis, the modulation of the shot with a point of view originating from the distant interior of the closet after all of the closely held shots on Ennis was also affective and striking. The idea that the shade of Jack was calling to Ennis to discover the shirts is so moving and obvious now that you mention it. All in keeping with the hallucinatory, profoundly mythic tone of the whole family-home sequence.
Should we start referring to this as the "Ennis and The Shades" scene?
Bravo!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - jmmgallagher (Wed Dec 28 2005 13:16:59 )   


UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 13:51:11
The complex work of art that is "Brokeback Mountain" now has had many authors--just compare the different versions of these few lines:

First, from the 1997 story by Proulx:

"In the end the stud duck refused to let Jack's ashes go. 'Tell you what, we got a family plot and he's goin' in it.' Jack's mother stood at the table coring apples with a sharp, serrated instrument. 'You come again,' she said."

Then in the 1997-1998 screenplay by McMurtry and Ossana (which Ossana says was written in about three months):

"JOHN TWIST still sits at the table, still and angry as ever.

JOHN TWIST
Tell you what, we got a family plot and
he's goin' in it.

ENNIS, resigned to this fact, nods at the old man as if he
understands.

ENNIS

Yes sir.

JACK'S MOTHER hands him the sack with the two shirts.

JACK'S MOTHER
(sympathetic)
You come back and see us again.

ENNIS
(nods)
Ma'am. Thank you for this.

ENNIS puts his hat on.

Leaves."

Compare these versions with the same scene in the Ang Lee movie (2004-2005), described so well above in the first post.

Neither the story nor the screenplay bother to describe the kitchen interior, although both mention a plastic tablecloth that Ang entirely dispenses with--the table on which "Jack's mother" so carefully places the cup of coffee is bare and gleaming.

And think what Roberta Maxwell does with the parenthetic instruction in the screenplay: "(sympathetic)"--she gives, instead, a full and complex account of her relationships with her dead son, with her angry husband, and her hopes for a man she knows to have been her dead son's lover. Ang is famous for giving little or no instructions to his actors, expecting them, rather, to "deliver." Think what she does, with her character, who is not even given a name, and in such little time!

I do agree that the actor Peter McRobbie, as John Twist, is also remarkable. His delivery of the line--

"Tell you what. I know where Brokeback Mountain is."

--is absolutely chilling. (All of his lines are from the original story, nearly verbatim.)

Ironic when you think that such people haven't a hope of being recognized even as "supporting actors" when honors like the Oscars are dispensed.

But this is just one moment. The entire movie is a miracle.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 13:23:34 )
   

naun
I confess that I'm trolling in two streams regarding the Classic references.
A poster wdj on Dave Cullen's amazing forum http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=17.285
in reply to the discussion on that site
has discovered a stunningly appropriate reference to Aeneas's beloved male friend Misenus for whom Aeneas is primarily searching through Hades. The Sibyl says the following in the John Dryden translation:

Besides, you know not, while you here attend,
Th' unworthy fate of your unhappy friend:
Breathless he lies; and his unburied ghost,
Depriv'd of fun'ral rites, pollutes your host.
Pay first his pious dues; and, for the dead,
Two sable sheep around his hearse be led;
Then, living turfs upon his body lay:
This done, securely take the destin'd way,
To find the regions destitute of day.

The images and themes especially of deprived funeral rites and sable sheep vis a vis Brokeback Mountain are astounding!!

Former IMDb Name: True Oracle of Phoenix / TOoP (I pronounce it "too - op") / " in fire forged,  from ash reborn" / Currently: GeorgeObliqueStrokeXR40

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Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:12:00 )   


UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 14:56:06
naun
Others have commented upon this elsewhere, so it's not original, but worth repeating.
There is another visual motif which concludes the 'Ennis and The Shades' sequence as Ennis exits from Lightning Flat.
The film had begun with a fade-in on Ennis arriving on a truck as a speck of light in the barren Wyoming landscape, traveling right to left across the screen, carrying his only worldly possessions in a paper bag. His destination is the impending meeting with Jack and the beginning of their relationship outside of Aguirre's trailer.
In stark symmetry to this, as their worldly relationship and his mythic 'labor' to pay hommage to Jack's spirit concludes, he leaves Jack's home carrying the shirts again in another paper bag as his only significant possession, this time travelling left to right across the screen as the speck of light which is his truck traverses a similarly barren landscape. He essentially ends the film with the same physical material he had when he entered the story. [note the later exchange in Ennis's sparsely furnished trailer between Alma, Jr and Ennis wherein she says, "Daddy, you need more furniture." to which he replies, "If you don't got nothing, then you don't need nothing."]
This portion of the film terminates with one of only four fade-outs used in the film, signifying a leave-taking at numerous levels.



Naw, Lee never does ANYTHING...   
by - rvognar01 (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:20:38 )   

UPDATED Thu Dec 29 2005 11:00:07
"Ang is famous for giving little or no instructions to his actors, expecting them, rather, to "deliver."--oh, and when Emma Thompson sits down and cries for 5 minutes at the end of "Sense and Sensibility," with Hugh Grant patiently waiting for her to stop so he can propose, that'all HER and HIS idea--Lee didn't have anything to do with it... The maker ofd Crouching Tiger, Ride with the Devil, Sense and Sense and Sensibility and Brokeback Mountain just lets his actors do what they please...give me a *beep* break!

We see those in the light,
But those in darkness,
We don't see,

Bertolt Brecht


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - NoLoveForTheEmpire (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:39:48 )   

This is a kickass, thoughtful thread and probably the best I've seen on this board. I haven't seen the movie yet but can't wait to, and I'm also a mythology buff and (knowing very little about the short story) would probably not have been looking for such subtext when I DO see it.

Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention, because I'll be thrilled to look for it in the film.

And keep making awesome posts like this!

Nevermind, it's easier just to call you an idiot. - Brian Griffin


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - sweetlilgygy (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:41:32 )
   

WOW!! very interesting and thoughtful!! thank u!!

!!The Brokeback Mountain Maniac YEE-HAW!!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - josh773 (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:58:59 )   


I saw the room as an uncluttered celebration of all the reasons that Ennis loved Jack.

A cowboy figurine is a mocking reminder of his failure to achieve his dream of becoming a cowboy himself.

When I saw that cowboy firgurine, I had assumed it was the finished product that Ennis was carving in the beggining of the movie. Ennis starts crying after he picks it up.

A desk and chair where he failed to make an impression as a scholar.

I was more amused by what I saw as a rock collection.


The small .22 hanging in a wooden rack is a mockery of his lack of marksmanship evident earlier in the film.

He never quit trying.

The only thing representing anything of value he might have achieved is the iconic/cult object of his true and abiding love for Ennis - the two shirts

The thing that he loved the most and tried the hardest at was also the thing that he could never be shown in public. Jack even sheltered Ennis from fear of discovery in Jack's own home.

hidden away from the prying eyes of Jack's father and the rest of the world. Only his Mother would have been party to their significance.

His father would have known their significance and possibly destroyed them, again, Jack protecting Ennis. His Mother kept them safe.


One of the most brilliant sequences in movie history   
by - pandelis_1 (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:59:40 )
   

Absolutely, categorically, PERFECT from the minute Roberta Maxwell opens her mouth.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - retropian (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:07:15 )   


Casey. This is one of the best insights into the story and film I've read. Thanks for posing it. I liked your take on the ending. It's ambiguity leaves it open to so many interpretations, and their all valid. not to beat a dead horse, but I've been posting on this thread;

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/32370173

as to why I think the ending shot of the grassy field is a hopeful one. Your analysis adds a whole new level to the story. I read "The Aeneid", many years ago, but didn't make this connection. Can you think of any other classical references in the body of the story or film?


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS

by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:13:32 )   


UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 15:27:13
josh 773
Thank you. I'm enlightened, humbled and fortified by your different reading of the same images and objects. I suppose it's indicative that we all have either an Ennis [me] glass half-empty or a Jack [you] glass half-full outlook on the same events and reality.
I thought I'd made up my mind that the figurine in Jack's room and the one Ennis was carving in the rain-soaked tent on Brokeback were not the same. Given Lee's penchant for ambiguity, it probably doesn't matter, but you've got me reconsidering it, especially since you noticed that the tears started welling in Ennis's eyes at that point.
I had not spied the rock collection, but will look for it at my next viewing of the film. There are other objects as well -- anything else you noticed? I believe there is a baseball mitt [?] and an oblong round-cornered object -- what looked to me to be a bar of soap [?]


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - mlewisusc (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:15:03 )   


The rest of your posts are very thought-provoking but this one blew me away! So obvious when stated, but I completely missed it in three viewings!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS

by - josh773 (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:24:29 )
   

Thanks. I very much appreciated your analysis, but it was so different from my own. Also, did you notice the garish mulit-colored wool coat in the closet. . . a hint of Joseph maybe? (I will NOT make an Andrew Lloyd Weber reference. I will NOT make an Andrew Lloyd Weber reference. I will NOT make an . . .sometimes I can't help myself.)
Quote



Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - deliane (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:29:36 )   


UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 15:31:42
(josh773,

with all due respect for the impressive, dense post of CaseyCornelius.. I just wanted to say your take on the objects in Jake's room was VERY moving- and happens to be closer to my way of seeing- especially the unfinished carving- and the room being full of things that remind Ennis of all the reasons he loves Jack

thanks for the sensitive insights.)


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - littledarlin (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:37:22 )
   
   
Excellent observations. I love reading other peoples' analysis of the film, as I have yet to form my own, even after seeing it 5 times! It has just deeply touched me and it is, as mentioned, a work of art in the truest sense. There is so much to take in.

The only thing I'd like to discuss is Jack's father. The impression I get is that Mr. Twist is not an angry man, and he probably had the same understanding Mrs. Twist did, that their son was gay, and loved Ennis. My interpretation was that Mr. Twist was bitter because Jack had always said he would bring Ennis back to the ranch to "lick it into shape", but never came.

It never occurred to me that he was angry because of Jack being gay, just angry over Jack's empty promises, which is intensified by the fact that he is gone for good. Just more testament to the idea that these type of men can not show emotion because in their mind it is not allowed, so they react with anger.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - deliane (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:39:36 )   


retropian.. and? CaseyCornelius..

to your request for more (possible) literary allusions-

well---- after my second time seeing the movie, I did come away with a feeling that Ennis reminded me of Billy Budd... (beyond the obvious parallel-)

not exactly Classical but.
and I'm certainly not up to writing about it in depth right at the moment--!

but would be interested to hear both your thoughts..

CaseyC, your post made me realize that not only is the film a cultural watershed moment- but there are probably Brokeback PhD dissertations on the horizon..! : )



Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - retropian (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:57:57 )   


beyrmama, I think Jack's father was to dense, too wrapped up in his bitterness to understand Jack. Even though he lays out the clues that Jack was gay, it didn't register with him. He is bitter and angry in this scene because Jack never returned with help to fix up the ranch. Jack mother understood Jack, and understood what Ennis meant to him. She and Ennis connect and recognize their love for Jack in each other. Is this the only scene where Ennis acknowledges his love for Jack to another? This is really the topic for a new thread.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - retropian (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:01:35 )   


Deliane, I've read Billy Bud and understand it to be a retelling of the Christ myth in a new context. At least that's been the ususal interpretation. Why and how does Ennis remind you of Billy Bud? It's been at leat 15 years since I read it.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:07:32 )   

   
UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 16:48:09
beyrmama:
Grateful for your thoughts.
Keeping in mind Ang Lee's use of subtle ambiguity throughout the film, your take on John Twist is also possible. My seeing John Twist as ashamed of his son derives from Jack's revealing to Ennis that even though his father was a bullrider, well-known in his day, he had kept all of his secrets to himself, never taught Jack a thing and had never once come to see him ride. All indicative of a classic text-book withdrawl of a father from a son whom he suspects is gay.

The Proulx story also includes the horrific incident recording John Twist's abuse of Jack at the age of three or four when he beat the stuffing out of him for urinating on the bathroom floor - an incident which Ang Lee, Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana were obligated to leave out given the impossibility of filming it with a child actor and the revulsion associated with John Twist's actions. Given this, Annie Proulx's take is that John Twist at the very least was an inveterate, hateful child abuser from early in Jack's life, before there would have been any suspicion on John Twist's part that his son was gay.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - littledarlin (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:13:55 )   


ahh a point I completely missed. I think I shall go read the short story again.

"can't please my old man, no way." you're very perceptive, Casey :)

Off-topic: I really should change my user name. It just happened to be the song I was listening to at the time. Oh well.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - pyotr-3 (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:29:28 )   


Thank you all for this magnificent discussion... the best movie chat I have ever seen!!! Bravo!!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - 3of19 (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:35:02 )   

   
Joseph and his amazing technicolor dreamcoat. There, someone had to say it :p


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - naun (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:36:07 )   


UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 16:42:39
I looked up the Dave Cullen site, and somebody there mentions that Misenus was was drowned for hubris. In Brokeback Mountain, Lureen tells Ennis that Jack "drowned in his own blood". More grist for your mill.



Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI

by - deliane (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:57:22 )   


UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 17:02:03
(CaseyC, Jack's father actually urinates all over beaten up little Jack, as he is laying on the floor--

The old man blew up about it and this one time worked into a crazy rage. "Christ, he licked the stuffin out a me, knocked me down on the bathroom floor, whipped me with his belt. I thought he was killin me. Then he says, 'You want a know what it's like with piss all over the place? I'll learn you,' and he pulls it out and lets go all over me, soaked me, then he throws a towel at me and makes me mop up the floor, take my clothes off and warsh them in the bathtub, warsh out the towel, I'm bawlin and blubberin. But while he was hosin me down I seen he had some extra material that I was missin. I seen they'd cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand. No way to get it right with him after that."

I venture to guess that filming a scene like this would have completely skewed the rhythm of the movie-- it would have become, unavoidably, an emotional climax- instead of a throwaway horrific "aside" as it is in the story- a moment Ennis recalls while he is visiting Lightning Flat, Jack's parents--

so Lee's compromise, perhaps, was to have the malevolence of Jack's father come through in that scene purely through the delivery of Peter McRobbie.

"no way to get it right with him after that" says it all. Proulx is AMAZING.)


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:00:15 )   


UPDATED Tue Jan 3 2006 11:19:27
naun
Is not the number of analogies and symbolic references that both the Proulx and Lee visions of Brokeback are able to accomodate amazing?
It's difficult to conceive that Annie Proulx did not have some of this mythic imagery, language, symbolism, etc. in her mind when writing Brokeback. She is an 'omnivorous' reader [in her words] and her memory and retention for images and languages must make her reference all we have been discussing at an unconscious level. The apprehension of the deepest levels of mythology bred into our unconsciousness will always 'out' of the flesh of a magnificent literary work or masterful film.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - naun (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:07:20 )   


This portion of the film terminates with one of only four fade-outs used in the film, signifying a leave-taking at numerous levels.

A tangential observation here. There's a recurring image in nearly all of Ang Lee's films in which one character departs while another looks on. Think, for example, of the closing scene in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, or the one in Ride with the Devil. In Brokeback Mountain, you have the shot of Jack watching Ennis drive away for (though he doesn't know it) the last time. I've often wondered whether that image was a kind of metaphor for emigration, and that thought struck me again when I read something that Larry McMurtry said recently, that "the power of Ang Lee's movies comes from exile" and that this was what made him the ideal director for this story.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - starboardlight (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:29:31 )   


oh my god. that's was beautifully written. I must say for what seems like such a simply made film, it has the power to inspire our intellect as well as our primal emotions and spirit. Thank you for your insight into this scene. I did read the Aeneid in college, and all of that come back to me like a flash flood.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - starboardlight (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:49:47 )   


I will echo that sentiment. I did think that I was, like Casey feels himself, more identified with Ennis, but that wooden horse did bring me back to the carving. You hit it on the head for me.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - starboardlight (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:56:11 )   


plus the whole thing of showing a child's circumcised penis versus the old man's uncut one is problematic, to put it lightly. I don't think there's a director in all of film history that could carry that off with any kind of sensitivity.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 22:26:29 )   

   
retropian

For me another obvious possible example is provided by the symbolic 'wounds' which Ennis and Jack give to each other their last hours on Brokeback prior to coming down off of the mountain. Jack's secreting the two bloodied shirts is to me symbolic of wounds which will not heal. The evidence of Ennis's inability to express himself with tenderness towards Jack and venting his frustration in that final punch is ever present, the blood aging on the stained shirts, but never disappearing. The rediscovery of the shirts by Ennis, the reappearance of the shirts at the end in Jack's closet are akin to the wounds re-opening, being made palpable again after the years of bearing the psychological wounds to which their mutual love has made them subject.
There are many allusions in literature, the most obvious one being the wound that will not heal which Amfortas bears in the Parsifal legend and opera by Richard Wagner.
I dissolve into tears each time I watch the scene [with the lines added to the short story by McMurtry and Ossana]where Ennis, at their very last meeting, responds to Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you." with "Then why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this, I'm nothin', I'm nowhere." This and Proulx's two 'refrains' from the book "Let be, let be" and "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved" bespeak their difficult lives trying to live out their love for each other and the two wounded souls which result.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 09:05:12 )
   
   
I have seen the film three times, but after reading this thread I MUST go see it several more times!! Thanks to all of you who have brought forth these inciteful comments in this thread!
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Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Dec 29 2005 09:24:45 )   


UPDATED Thu Dec 29 2005 23:09:22
naun
I saw the film for the fourth time last night and noted the points where the four 'internal' fade-outs occur [not including the fifth and final one which closes the film]. Knowing that Ang Lee would not employ so noticeable a filmic effect indicating a 'full-close' without a dramatic purpose I note that they each signal a discovery or revelation in the film, most specially for Ennis.

1] The first fade-out occurs at the end of the re-union sequence where they get together for the first time after 4 years - following Ennis's line "Ain't no reins on this one" around the night-fire next to the river.
This closes with them realizing the 'truth' and the significance implicit in their intitial encounter on Brokeback and the proimise to 'ride it' as long as they can.

2] The second is after Ennis's Thanksgiving dinner with Alma, the girls, and Monroe where Alma confronts Ennis with the 'truth' of his relationship with Jack and his self-destructive, maso-chistic confrontation with the anonymous roughneck/trucker who beats him up.

3] The third occurs after Ennis and Jack's final meeting, where they confront each other with the 'truth' of their relationship: Jack's 'infidelities' fulfilling the need in him for more intimacy than Ennis is willing to provide; Ennis's inability to create a satisfying life without facing the 'truth' of his undying love for Jack and accepting it.

4] The fourth one closes Ennis's visit to Jack's home, where he sees the evidence of and finally realizes the 'truth' of the depth of commitment which Jack bore him and which he HAS to admit he never returned until it was too late - the discovery of the shirts, the symbolic 'evidence' of the 'fatal' bloody wound that marked them both.
This last is striking as it, as mentioned before, closes on an exactly symmetrical shot of Ennis travelling as a point of light across the landscape with nothing in his life save the paperbag with the shirts across the screen in the opposite direction from which he 'entered' the film in the very first shot.
Amazing filmic structure.

And as the months and years go by, one has to assume that this film will be studied minutely for the consistency of all of the interpretive choices Ang Lee makes. We could create another 5 threads discussing only the use of colors and the transfer and significance of the 'wheat brown' associated with Ennis and the 'sky or indigo blue' with Jack and the transferring and intermingling of the colors in their lives [clothing, vehicles, the clothing of their loved ones, etc]. AND the way Lee structures the images in foreground and background in the frame, symbolically linking different halves of the frame - most noticeable in the opening sequence where Ennis is always shot against the buildings hemming him in and Jack is always shot with open fields or other 'free' landscape appearing in the other half of the frame.
The absolute 'stunner' in this respect is the final shot juxtaposing the closet door with the open fields of ripening corn and grain - summing up the psychological themes of each of the main characters and those of the whole film [the impositions of town and society versus the freedom of the open land] with one magnificent ultimate image.
Both the color and frame compositions show that Ang Lee knows and has studied Michelangelo Antonioni, Ingmar Bergman, Bresson, Tarkovsky. Lee is destined to be ranked with all of them in the future.



Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - losdzez (Thu Dec 29 2005 10:54:59 )   

   
This is a pretty basic question given the depth of your analysis but did you see a significance in the fact that the blue denim jacket (Jack's?) was inside Ennis' shirt at the end, while when he found it in the closet the jacket was on the outside?

I.e., that his placing the shirt on the outside of the jacket perhaps was one more way of showing tenderness and care to Jack that he had not been able to show in life?

Like an eternal embrace.

Someone had mentioned on an earlier thread that Ennis never seemed to comfort Jack. I've only seen the movie once but I do recall that there is a flashback sequence just before Ennis drives away from Jack, to an earlier leavetaking where Ennis comes up behind Jack and puts his arm around him. A very tender and open moment, rare from Ennis.

And the shirt on the outside seems to echo that embrace.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - BannerHill (Thu Dec 29 2005 10:56:22 )   


Remember at the end when Ennis is in Jacks room and he opens the window and then sits down? I noticed that-very carefully-The camera lowers down as Ennis sits. I thought how odd that was, and I thought it was as if....we were in the room silently witnessing him. As if we were sitting down WITH him. Did anyone else get this?

Have I gone too far?


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - josh773 (Thu Dec 29 2005 11:02:54 )   


Also, I think that the card that comes back marked "Deceased" is the first time that Ennis is suggesting the time for their next get together.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - naun (Thu Dec 29 2005 11:09:13 )   


Casey, thanks for another illuminating post. You know, I quite seriously think they should hire you to do a commentary track for the DVD.

the opening sequence where Ennis is always shot against the buildings hemming him in and Jack is always shot with open fields or other 'free' landscape

Rather like the imagery associated with the two sisters in Sense and Sensibility, interestingly enough!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - jmmgallagher (Thu Dec 29 2005 11:12:50 )   


Probably because Ennis was feeling guilty about August....


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - Tantemo (Thu Dec 29 2005 12:10:07 )   


I like the fact that Jack's dad is a stud duck. Not the first animal that comes to my mind when I think of a stud.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Dec 29 2005 12:50:26 )   


UPDATED Thu Dec 29 2005 12:52:04
losdzez:

A beautiful image isn't it? Discussion on it has cropped up in a number of other threads. It's too bad we can't re-organize some of the better posts from this one and others under thread topics.

One thread topic could be [jumping off from your post] the numerous ways that Ennis creates reminders of Jack and their time on Brokeback throughout his life from the begining of his marriage with Alma.
Have you noticed how in the winter tobogganing scene immediately following the weddding scene he is wearing a BLUE wool cap - the color associated throughout the film with Jack? Has to be a deliberate touch by Ang Lee.
And another scene or two later there is a painting of a mountain peak which looks very much like Brokeback hanging in the sad rancher's cabin where Alma and Ennis have set up their home and family. It prepares us sub-consciously for their first reunion meeting and 'the kiss' as it shows that Ennis has constantly been paying hommage to Jack and their relationship with a multitude of tiny, subtle iconic touches.
The use of color as symbol, reflection of, and visual commentary on the relationship of Ennis and Jack could start a whole new thread.

Anyone want to take the color or icon topic and 'ride with it'?


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - mlewisusc (Thu Dec 29 2005 13:33:29 )   


Casey (and all),

I have been somewhat hesitant to post on this thread because I'm so impressed with your knowledge and analysis. I just jumped off another thread wherein a poster traced the color blue thru the film as an enticement to Ennis - including blue earrings Alma Jr. is wearing when she asks if she can come live with him. Futhermore, this poster pointed out that the only color in the Twist home in Lightning Flat was blue. I'll need to see the film again and watch for this.

I had another reference which is from the story and included in the movie, but I don't know how much of a leap it is. In the telephone conversation between Ennis and Lureen, she says the following in reference to Brokeback Mountain: "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring [quoting screenplay]."

These are lines from the song "Big Rock Candy Mountain," which has a current reputation as a children's song, but (as used in "O Brother Where Art Thou" recently) was originally a Hobo ballad, and one with some dark history. In some records regarding the origins of the song, there's a version which is the story a farmer's boy tells who is seduced by the words sung in the song into going on the road with a Hobo who passess by his farm - the Hobo telling the boy he will take him to the Big Rock Candy Mountains and ennumerating all the great things he will find there - all of which are fantastic, of course. But when the boy returns from the road, he ends the song by telling how it was all a lie and that he was sexually used by the Hobo.

Is it possible Proulx could have had this "darker" version of the song in mind when she put these words in Lureen's mouth (not that I think Lureen was making such an alllusion) - and by extension or choice director Lee?


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - mlewisusc (Thu Dec 29 2005 13:36:04 )   


Here's the link to the other thread talking about the color blue:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/32520788


Jack's room   
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 13:58:54 )   

   
I had not noticed that the shirts were hidden in a nook of the closet. I went back and sure enough, Proulx's story refers to them as being hidden there.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - naun (Thu Dec 29 2005 14:01:47 )   


In some records regarding the origins of the song, there's a version which is the story a farmer's boy tells who is seduced by the words sung in the song into going on the road with a Hobo who passess by his farm - the Hobo telling the boy he will take him to the Big Rock Candy Mountains and ennumerating all the great things he will find there - all of which are fantastic, of course.

Gosh, that sounds like a version of the Pied Piper legend. If there's any relevance to Brokeback, perhaps Ennis is the crippled child who cannot follow.

By the way, the Pied Piper story makes an unexpected and stunning appearance in Atom Egoyan's film of "The Sweet Hereafter".


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Dec 29 2005 14:05:57 )   

mlewisusc:

PLEASE !! Don't be hesitant. I'm just riffing here, trying to externalize thoughts as I attempt to come to terms with the emotional response Brokeback Mountain has created in me. I think we're all seeking communal enlightenment and solace on this board. What Ennis says about their relationship should apply to all of us Brokeback seekers --'Ain't no reins on this one.'

Sounds like you should start another thread with the Big Rock Candy Mountain query.
I had another musical thread going over a month ago

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/29901831?d=29901831#29901831

in which I was dealing with the songs with which Ennis and Jack serenade each other on Brokeback in the Proulx story. I had asked a similar question regarding the different sanitized versus saucy versions of Stawberry Roan which Ennis might have sung. I was sorry to see that there wasn't much of their singing in the film.

Afraid I can't help you. But, you should get a response from someone else.
If you want to start another thread feel free to integrate with my content from the link above.

You might even send the query to the forum on Annie Proulx's own site www.annieproulx.com assuming that her son-in-law [the site administrator] might be able to field the question. He has been known to get replies from her regarding various questions.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - mlewisusc (Thu Dec 29 2005 14:22:47 )
   

Thanks Casey!

I am not very tech savvy (this is my first experience posting on a message board ever - that's what "Brokeback Mountain" has driven me to), but I'll try to start a new thread about the song. A word for you on the Strawberry Roan (which I posted a day or so ago and now can't find the thread!) - I read on a folk music database that the "salty" or "bawdy" version of Strawberry Roan involved two cowboys hired to castrate the horse, rather than (in the regular version) one bronc-busting cowboy hired to break the horse.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS

by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Dec 29 2005 14:31:47 )   


mlewisusc:

There are separate links to both of the versions of Strawberry Roan in my intial post on the link I provided earlier to my earlier musical thread. It will save you a little time if you're looking to compare them.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - losdzez (Thu Dec 29 2005 15:17:19 )
   

Bumping this thread because it's the type of thing IMDB was [or should have been] created for: people who love films, who "feel" them, and want to enjoy them as the nourishment for the soul that they can be.

I'm writing a couple of screenplays. One of my teachers tried to get me to remove a reference in a scene (not as erudite or classically founded by a long shot as the references here in this thread), and we ended up arguing.

And I thought afterwards that perhaps he was right, since it's symbolism that could be missed anyway, just something simple and subtle pointing to a character's attempt to hide his true nature and/or his unwittingly revealing it. Something hugely significant to me but . . . maybe not so much to others. I came close to acquiescing.

Seeing this thread, and thinking back on the film, I see that even the most subtle nuance can enrich the story - even if the viewer is unaware of the symbolism, the subliminal signals, the images in the background, the vistas, the colors. Most viewers don't know when they're being engulfed by the story, or the storytelling, or how. They just know it works for them.

So I am back to inserting symbols that work for me, because they always and only come from inspiration, the "muse", and they inform and deepen the story, even if the ultimate viewer (fates be praised if this ever gets seen!) is not wholly aware of them.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 16:47:34 )   


I must say I agree with Josh's interpretation of the room. I can't wait to go see Brokeback for my fourth time so I can watch out for all these things!!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 17:40:46 )   


I am in awe of the posters on this thread. Are they an example of what happens when you pay attention in class? Bravo to you all!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 18:21:05 )   


We must lobby Ang Lee to hire Casey for commentary on the DVD! Anyone got his address??


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - abydosianchulac2 (Thu Dec 29 2005 19:57:31 )
   

UPDATED Thu Dec 29 2005 20:01:04
I just came back from a showing of BBM at Boston Common (fairly weak turn out, only about a quarter to a third full), and I had tried to keep an eye out for the usage of color throughout the film but kept getting distracted by little stuff like, you know, the plot. What I did think I noticed was an overall downward trend in the vibrance of the color from the rich blues, greens, and browns at Brokeback Moutain to the drab, dusty neutrals that come to surround Ennis's life. Notably, the only real bright colors towards the end of the movie (especially after Jack's murder; after that point, all color seems to vanish into a sepia wash) come from objects in Ennis's life that connect to good times with Jack and the love that they had/have for each other: the red of the post office; the blue of Jack's mother's clothing; and the blue and brown of Jack's and Ennis's shirts, respectively, are all the major sources of color I saw. Everything else spiraled downward losing hue and vibrance until Ennis found himself in Jack's family home which was practically devoid of any color at all. Then, in the last scene, the trend reverses itself almost completely, moving back into the neutral shades of the dust and dirt around Ennis's trailer, then into Alma Jr.'s clothing, then into the shirts and postcard in the closet, then finally full circle to the bright greens and golds of the grasses outside the window in the final shot. If anyone can find evidence to either support this analysis or tear it apart, please post it; like I said, I didn't get a chance to devote much time towards focusing on the technical aspects of the film.

Side Note: Did anyone else notice that the opening shot of the mountains and hills at sunrise with Ennis hitchhiking to Signal and the shot of Ennis driving back home from Lightening Flat were almost identical? Can anyone find a solid connection between them, cause I'm too emotionally tired (again) to look much more into the movie tonight?


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - flashframe777 (Thu Dec 29 2005 20:01:03 )   



And did you notice the view of Brokeback Mountain in the background right beyond Aguirre's trailer in the opening scene. It looks so majestic in the background - as if it's a prelude to something great coming into view.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - mlewisusc (Thu Dec 29 2005 21:02:21 )   


I think Casey posted earlier in this thread that when Ennis first arrives, he arrives at sunup in a truck moving from right to left across the screen, holding all his possessions in a paper bag. When he departs from Lightning Flat, he travels at dusk, in his truck, from left to right across the screen, holding his most important possession (the shirts) in a paper bag. At the end of that scene, there is one of only four fadeouts in the film. These things are symbolic of the opening and closing of his relationship with Jack.

Make sure you give Casey and not me the credit for these observations.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - abydosianchulac2 (Thu Dec 29 2005 21:24:22 )
   

Whoops, mea culpa! I guess I overlooked that in his postings. Sorry, Casey!

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Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - starboardlight (Thu Dec 29 2005 22:05:55 )   


I'm writing a couple of screenplays. One of my teachers tried to get me to remove a reference in a scene (not as erudite or classically founded by a long shot as the references here in this thread), and we ended up arguing.

And I thought afterwards that perhaps he was right, since it's symbolism that could be missed anyway, just something simple and subtle pointing to a character's attempt to hide his true nature and/or his unwittingly revealing it. Something hugely significant to me but . . . maybe not so much to others. I came close to acquiescing.


set it aside for a while then re-evaluate. The thing you don't want to do is fall in love with a detail to the detriment of the big picture. You're right, just because it's not obvious to the general audience, doesn't mean it should be taken out. However, look carefully to see if it serves the story, in terms of helping the pacing, revealing the characters, etc. You teacher's objection may be to the fact that it doesn't fit, rather than it being an obscure reference. Good luck with the screenplay, though.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - michellemybell (Thu Dec 29 2005 23:59:27 )   


Is this film going to become the next film and compartive literature topic course...to much thinking hurts my head...I cant wait to graduate college so I never have to think again...lol

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - HBFilmBuff (Fri Dec 30 2005 00:16:32 )   


I noticed that the reference to "whiskey springs" was first made by Ennis, when he is telling Jack "it's not going to be like that" when Jack proposes they move up to Wyoming together.

So it struck me as ironic, that Lureen uses those same words to ridicule Jack's dreaminess and idealism when she is talking to Ennis about Jack.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - mlewisusc (Fri Dec 30 2005 00:36:02 )   


Good point, HBFilmBuff, although I think it actually occurs at a later reunion where Ennis mocks Jack's suggestion Ennis move to Texas with something about talking Alma into letting Jack and Lureen adopt Ennis' girls. Got to go look at the screenplay again!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - jmmgallagher (Fri Dec 30 2005 05:43:06 )
   

Just sneak it in. Be crafty.

Your teacher will just be one of the people who didn't get it all, and that's ok.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius (Fri Dec 30 2005 10:49:15 )   


losdzez "this thread [is] the type of thing IMDB was created for"
Amen to that !! I can't believe some of the hate-filled, inappropriate, and unfit posts which are distracting rabid fans of Brokeback from delving more into the film and its significance.
BUMP



Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - mlewisusc (Fri Dec 30 2005 14:26:08 )   


On another thread, balrog20 just pointed out an interesting symbolism and I want to put it in front of you folks.

When Alma Jr. drives up to Ennis' trailer, Ennis has just put numbers on the side of his mailbox - as balrog20 says, no more general delivery for him!

To balrog20, this is symbolic of Ennis settling down and making more of a commitment, just as he concludes the film with a commitment to Jack.

What do you think?


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - BannerHill (Fri Dec 30 2005 14:39:15 )
   

That is intersting. Particularly ater seeing the post office several times. Very good point. I guess he WAS settling down, huh? Alll the more sad that now all he's just got a shirt.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - pyotr-3 (Fri Dec 30 2005 15:46:35 )   


Yes, Ennis is re-joining the Universe. And some people think that it is significant that he puts the number 17 on his mailbox. Someone said this is the age he got kicked out of his sibling's house, out on his own. And now he is starting over in life once again.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - pyotr-3 (Fri Dec 30 2005 16:38:52 )   


Does Ang Lee have this many amazing aspects of his OTHER films??


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - pyotr-3 (Fri Dec 30 2005 17:12:08 )   


Funny, it never occurred to me that Mr Twist would be angry for any reason OTHER than his being gay. We gay guys usually start feeling the hatred of our dads when we do something non-masculine at about age 5 and it continues from then until the day one of us dies. It never occurs to me that parents actually get mad at their children for any other reason, since until you've felt the angry eyes of a homophobic parent aimed at your innocent gay self for 10 or 20 years, you probably haven't experienced hopelessness. Unless your parent is a sociopath, psychopath, or seriously demented child abuser.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 06:20:40 )   


This thread really needs to be put in a BOOK!
   
      
Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - naun (Sat Dec 31 2005 07:10:34 )
   

But, starting with a higher, comparitively 'jarring', noticeably contrasting, overhead shot of Ennis's head, Jack's Mother's bony hand enters the frame, and touches Ennis's shoulder, breaking the 'spell' of the Father's disdain and hatred for what his son was.

It has struck me that this is not the first time we see Ennis touched on the shoulder. In the flashback sequence where the young Ennis is shown the body of the dead rancher, the father's hand is seen on the boy's shoulder. As the boy's eyes widen in horror at the sight of the dead man, the father's hand tightens like a vice around the boy's neck.

To me this is a powerful image of parental responsibility abused. (There's a rather similar shot, with not dissimilar overtones, in Hulk when the young Bruce Banner witnesses a traumatic scene.) The later scene with Jack's mother seems to mirror this earlier scene; it may not be coincidental that the dead (not yet put to rest, as Casey observes elsewhere in this thread) are a presence in both scenes. But here the touch is benevolent, not coercive. It is, as Casey says, as if she is breaking the father's spell. I'm tempted to go further and say that she is breaking the spell cast by both fathers, Ennis' as well as Jack's. Jack's mother, through this small, healing gesture, seems to accept Ennis as a son and to bestow on him the parental love his own father withheld.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 15:29:33 )   


I love the contrast to the Aeneid. I just saw the film for the fourth time, however, and I didn't see an otherworldly glow in the kitchen. But other than that everything in the Aeneid comparison is right on target.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - mlewisusc (Sat Dec 31 2005 16:16:58 )   

   
WOW great though!


Re: One of the most brilliant sequences in movie history   
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 17:24:22 )   


Yes, Roberta Maxwell almost deserves an Oscar nomination for her role. It is small, yet so pivotal, and SO perfectly done.


whiskey springs   
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 18:33:39 )
   

Yes, also the reference to bluebirds (with the whiskey springs) is interesting. Notice that Alma, Jr., was wearing bluebird earrings when you see she & Ennis riding in the truck together.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Dec 31 2005 18:52:34 )
   

UPDATED Tue Jan 3 2006 23:04:00
naun:

I sense that you are as touched as I am by the sensitivity and sympathy Ang Lee shows at numerous levels towards every one of his characters.

I've just seen the film for the fifth time and agree with your assessment of the parallel shots of the father's coercive hands on Ennis's shoulder in the flash-back sequence and the beneficence conveyed in the shot of Jack's mother 'blessing' him with a similar touch. You are spot on with that thought.

This time, I looked for more visual motifs of 'touching' and was able to spot another instance of parallelism/symmetry. It conveys yet another example of Ennis's identification of a healing and comforting touch by 'the mother' as an archetype.

The valedictory flashback of Ennis embracing Jack from behind by the fire, singing a song his mother taught him, is one of the few 'tendernesses' which Ennis is able to demonstrate in the film, a gesture also taught to him by his mother from a distant memory, accompanied by the same child-talk.
An identification with Alma as 'the mother' whose tenderness Ennis still seeks is provided by a parallel shot, earlier in the film [but later in the narrative since we see the flashback later], of Alma embracing Ennis from behind, when they are readying themselves for bed. Alma embraces Ennis in exactly the same way as Ennis embraces Jack, same arm position, very similar angle and position in the frame. And Ennis falls back against Alma, in the same way Jack falls back against Ennis, to quote Proulx's story, "leaning against the steady heartbeat."

Moreover, it's obvious that Ennis has a relationship with Alma primarily as a maternal, tender 'comforter'. Alma herself counsels the possibility of Ennis being better off closer to people, not forcing himself to live in the lonely way he was raised without his parents, invoking the protecting concern of the 'shades' of his parents.

However, to relate to her sexually he has to 'mask' her by turning out the light and make love to her in the position with which he familiarly made love to Jack because in a similar way, to quote Annie Proulx from the story, Ennis does not want "to see nor feel that it [was] Jack he held". Or Alma for that matter. He must make love to Alma in the same way, not to ape the act of sex from behind, but using that position in order to avoid loving her or anyone openly, face-to-face. Even in making love to Jack, one cannot imagine a single instance when Ennis's eyes are ever open. Even the 'second night' embrace on Brokeback has Jack initiate sexual tenderness to which Ennis responds as if it were more of a mother's embrace, with his eyes closed, not able to look at or willingly face Jack himself.

It's yet another instance of the heart-breaking inability of Ennis at every level to identify and accept the true object of his deepest love, Jack. It's due to the disgust and abhorrence of such tenderness having been instilled in him by his father forcing him to witness Earl's corpse, the tortured and desecrated result of such a love.

I'm astounded by the depth and richness of psychological insight Ang Lee conveys through these tiny details and the way he weaves them together so coherently and with such fragility as if the film's whole structure would break apart if a single detail was overstated. The film IS a miracle and a wonderful gift.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 19:39:58 )   


Exactly. This message board was created for postings like what we see on this thread. Not for childish banter over whether or not Jake & Heath really had sex or not. Too bad there can't be an "adult room" and a separate "children's room" so we don't have to wade thru the silly junk to find substance like Casey's comments.
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Water Walking Jesus   
by - pyotr-3 (Sun Jan 1 2006 06:51:59 )   


What was the significance of Jack singing the "Water Walking Jesus" song?


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - josh773 (Sun Jan 1 2006 07:09:29 )
   

The seventeenth letter of the alphabet is "Q".


Re: Water Walking Jesus   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 1 2006 07:35:41 )
   

pyotr-3:

RE: Water Walking Jesus.

I've commented on the songs which Jack and Ennis sing to each other in a previous thread titled Ennis and Jack Serenading - you can probably find it if you go through my profile and posts. Someone else a little later on this thread tried to integrate it with a discussion about Big Rock Candy Mountain.


Jack's singing of Water Walking Jesus - a fictional hymn, the fragment of which Jack sings was written by Larry McMurtry's son, Annie Proulx and another person listed in the credits for the film - is another subtle allusion, this time Biblical, which provides another layer of depth to Jack's character.

We could begin another whole discussion here with reference to Jack's Mother and how her acceptance of Jack's love for Ennis is not incompatible with her faith. And, hence, in Annie Proulx's eyes obviates any conflict between true Christian faith and the tolerance for a man loving another man.

Remember that in the story Jack serenades Ennis with a favored hymn, "Water Walking Jesus" learned from his mother who believed in THE PENTECOST [emphasis mine].
It's touching in the film that Jack cannot explain the Pentecost to Ennis, despite his up-bringing. He confuses it with the Last Judgement, whereas it is actually the beginning of the Christian church, with the first descent of the Holy Spirit, the enlightening 'paraclete' or comforter, upon all believers. Roberta Maxwell's brief, but astonishing portrayal of Jack's Mother comforting Ennis, who has himself offered condolences to Lureen and Jack's parents, is all the more moving as she is the first and only person to offer comfort to HIM.

I'm moved to tears by the pathos of Jack's fondness for the Biblical account of the miracle of Jesus walking on the water and encouraging the disciple Peter to leave the rest of the disciples and join him on the tumult of the waters. What an apt Christian symbol to reflect Jack's more adventuresome, open, and daring spirit in complete contrast to that of the taciturn, mistrusting, fearful Ennis.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - mlewisusc (Sun Jan 1 2006 07:45:02 )
   

I'm astounded, once again, by your insights. The parallel to Alma holding Ennis to Ennis holding Jack seems spot-on to me.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - anml-lvr (Sun Jan 1 2006 07:56:14 )   


Wow Casey...
That's deep. Love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think you are right on.
Thank you...


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - pyotr-3 (Sun Jan 1 2006 08:21:43 )   


CaseyCornelius for President!


Another 'glass half full' reinterpretation of this scene...   
by - bkamberger (Sun Jan 1 2006 08:29:21 )   

...remember that the blood on the shirts is Ennis', which Jack had wiped off with his sleeve. Boys often become "blood brothers" by self-inflicting a small wound and mingling the blood. By keeping the shirts, Jack was cherishing that pact and perhaps hoping that this blood would eventually carry him to Ennis' heart, just as blood does in the body.

I'm not half the classics scholar you are, but I seem to recall several legends in which a fallen hero is restored by reacquiring a bit of his own blood that has been lost. And having that blood be on the shirt of his lost love would surely have even more of a restorative effect for both. The shirt is, in fact, their entire relationship in talismanic form, and it will survive them both.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - diemxperdidi (Sun Jan 1 2006 08:51:30 )   

Even though it made me feel very young and stupid, thank you for that wonderful analysis!


Re: Another 'glass half full' reinterpretation of this scene...   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 1 2006 12:23:24 )
   

bkamberger:
Thank you !!
I had toyed with the idea of 'the wound' on the shirts alluding to an 'intermingling of blood' which is the prime trait of a Bruderschaft. I'm glad that it's also occured to you.
I had backed off of the idea for two reasons:
1] the wounding was not willing nor intentional, but accidental on Jack's part, eliciting a frustrated, agressive reaction by Ennis -- ie. suggested no agreement whatsoever;
2] none of Jack's blood was spilt -- although the obvious, painful bruise which appeared could be conceived of as such.
Still, I'd agree with you that the ultimate use of the shirts as a talisman [your terrific term !] by Jack emotionally signifies something similar to a Bruderschaft.

Thank you, too,...   
by - bkamberger (Sun Jan 1 2006 17:10:34 )   


UPDATED Sun Jan 1 2006 17:24:14
...for your openness to different interpretations as well as your considerate explanation of your viewpoint.

You're right that "the wounding was not willing nor intentional," but given the characters involved, how could it be otherwise? Neither could ever quite pledge commitment, or even state his love openly, and they certainly do more than their share of hurting each other, either inadvertently or in an angry form of blind passion. And yet, for all their denials, they ultimately do forge a bond as close and strong as any Bruderschaft. Remember that the memory Jack cherishes most is of Ennis hugging him in a non-sexual manner and humming a lullaby, just as a loving brother might. Remember, too, that Ennis was raised by his brother, who was hard on him, and that his relationship with Jack was probably at least partially spurred by a yearning for a more affectionate sibling.

Since I originally posted my reply, I've read the Proulx story for the first time. Here's the passage that occurs when Ennis finds the shirts, which I've italicized where I think the wording is germane to this discussion:

"It was his own plaid shirt, lost, he'd thought, long ago in some damn laundry, his dirty shirt, the pocket ripped, buttons missing, stolen by Jack and hidden here inside Jack's own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one. He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands."

One final detail that might be worth recollecting: In the story, Ennis and his wife live unhappily in an apartment over a laundry, and it is to this place that Jack returns, four years after the Brokeback Mountain summer, to rekindle his relationship with Ennis. Clearly, too, Jack would rather "go to hell," as he says just before their first coupling, than wash out the bloody shirt "in some damn laundry."


Re: Thank you, too,...   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 1 2006 19:49:49 )   


UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 13:03:11
bkamberger:

The passage you quote from the story is very compelling and has convinced me that it does indeed allude to a Bruderschaftich or Bruderschaft-like relationship between Jack and Ennis. I've wanted to consider it and will join you willingly in assenting to that point. My God, just your quoting the passage reminds me what a heart-rending image Proulx has created, destined to be a locus classicus for the symbolic tragic male love story of our time.
The 'two in one' has just now suggested to me the image from Plato's 'Symposium' in which there is a discussion of why we fall in love with various persons - an absurd simplification being the idea that we were all originally part of a double-entitiy being which later was split into two, spending the rest of our lives trying to match up to our corresponding half, whether it be another male or another female. I'm tempted to link this allusion to the unified two-in-one image of the shirts, but will have to give it more thought.
I know we'll both continue pursuing this as I'm sure there must be a more pertinent and exact allusion which we might come across.
However, in the mean time, I'll join you in affirming the Bruderschaft of Ennis and Jack as we form 'ein EnnisundJackebruderschaftichkeitgesellschaftchen' in discussion with you !!

And congratulations are due to you for bumping this thread over the 100 post mark. Long may it thrive.


Re: Thank you, too,...   
by - flashframe777 (Sun Jan 1 2006 20:19:12 )   


Perhaps the very act of joining the two shirts together is the talisman that brought them back together.


"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 12:10:31 )   


adamx013:

You and I share our excitement over this shot with Roberta Maxwell herself -- the actress playing Jack's mother.
In one of the threads containing a recent Jeffrey Wells interview with her, she recalls herself being shocked by that very shot when viewing the film for the very first time on December 9, turning to the person next to her and saying, "Is that MY hand?" It was so striking a camera move she didn't even recognize her own gesture.

You're very kind...

by - bkamberger (Mon Jan 2 2006 12:56:20 )
   

UPDATED Wed Jan 4 2006 09:56:23
...to acknowledge my point, especially since I didn't even mention that "Jack, I swear..." is said when Ennis is looking at the shirts and could be seen as his way of finally committing to the Bruderschaft. Interestingly, Proulx tells us, "Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind."

The Aristophanes story in the Symposium is a very interesting correlation, particularly since the playwright emphasized that the double-people were originally back to back. Much is made throughout the story of Jack and Ennis not looking at each other, and it's hinted this is because, deep down, they can't face the fact that their "double" is a man. Even Jack's cherished memory of Ennis' tenderness is of an embrace from behind. Ang Lee, of course, repeatedly positions Jack and Ennis in ways that suggest this lack of face-to-face contact, and such a shot is used in the film's poster.

It's also ironic that Aristophanes called the double-males "children of the sun," and yet most of the terrible things that happen in the course of the Ennis-Jack relationship occur in the sunlight: Aguirre spying on them, their farewell before the four-year separation, Alma seeing the kiss, Jack's disappointment after Ennis' divorce, all of the men's violent quarrels with each other, Jack's death. On the other hand, Ennis' violently "macho" outbursts when Jack is not present all occur in the nighttime, as does Jack's patronizing of Mexican hustlers as a way of secretly satisfying his cravings while maintaining the facade of straightness. As you may recall, Aristophanes called men-women, or the original heterosexuals, "children of the moon."


Re: You're very kind...   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 13:12:55 )   


UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 15:38:46
bkamberger:

The shirts; Ennis's " Jack, I swear --": der Bruderschaft
proven in spades !!

Quod erat demonstrandum

Moreover, thanks for 'torquing' this discussion back in line with the original 'Classical references' thread title with the amplification and clarity you provided to the Aristophanes/Plato 'Symposium' allusion.


Re: You're very kind...   
by - pyotr-3 (Mon Jan 2 2006 18:08:27 )   

This discussion must be read by all who see this movie...
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Re: You're very kind...   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 21:07:54 )   


bkamberger:

I had originally thought that the Aristophanic account from 'The Symposium' might provide a light tangential diversion. However, it's gotten serious. Your reference to my favorite passage in the story [which I've committed to memory I've returned to it so often] where Jack cherishes that 'distant memory' of being embraced from behind by Ennis sent me back to a passage in 'The Symposium' referring to what happens when a male half of an original being meets its corresponding half:

"And when one of them meets with his other half, the actual half of himself,[ ]the pair are lost in amazement of love and friendship and intimacy, and will not be out of the other's sight, as I may say, even for a moment: [ ]
For the intense yearning which each of them has towards the other does not appear to be the desire of lover's intercourse, but of something else which the soul of either evidently desires and cannot tell, and of which it has only a dark and doubtful presentiment."

I can't help but hear a resounding correspondence with Proulx's passage:
"What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and held him close, the silent embrace signifying some SHARED and SEXLESS hunger." [emphasis mine]

With this evidence and truth of the intense yearning on both their parts for each other, is there any possibility that Jack could ever have found a way to 'quit' Ennis or that Ennis could ever hope that Jack would 'let him be'? They were bound together, intertwined as much as that image of the shirts which is their talisman. Being forced apart, 'out of each other's [constant] sight' by societal rejection and intolerance of the possibility of their love and spiritual union created the tragedy.

There, Symposium and Bruderschaft are integrated.
I had first thought that Proulx's image of the intertwined shirts might have derived from another literary or mythic allusion which might still have occured to us. The more I consider it, though, it appears sui generis, a true original. Fantastic !!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - Xodiac-sky (Tue Jan 3 2006 09:31:52 )   


Did you cry writing this, because I cried reading it.

All I can say is Wow!

Thank you for making that connection, if that was not an intentional parallel in this movie then its amazing how the subconcious effects our creative decisions.


.   
by - bkamberger (Tue Jan 3 2006 13:13:25 )   


...for the most enlightening and friendly discussion I've had on these boards in many years. I hope we'll continue the discussion after I see Brokeback Mountain again this week, because I certainly don't want to quit you!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - Shuggy (Tue Jan 3 2006 13:17:17 )   


Aeneas says to Dido's ghost, "I swear by every oath that hell can muster, I swear I left you against my will. The law of God--the law that sends me now through darkness, bramble, rot and profound night--unyielding drove me; nor could I have dreamed that in my leaving I would hurt you so".

Thank you so much! I've been racking my brains trying to think what Ennis would have sworn, and that's IT - except of course that with his background he could have never have got it into words, let alone those words. Wonderful!



"If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it."


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - pyotr-3 (Tue Jan 3 2006 13:51:58 )   


I'm not convinced that Ennis thought he had LEFT Jack. Did I miss something? I think he felt as loyal to Jack as he always had.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - vkm91941 (Tue Jan 3 2006 22:17:24 )   


UPDATED Tue Jan 3 2006 22:17:54
Thank You for bumping this. I wasn't going to read it, but am so glad I did. What wonderful, moving and carefully thoughtout analysis of the film. I especially like the links to Aeneas. Incredible! Thank You for your sharing your beautiful words.

Forget about what you thought you were and just accept who you are.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - CaseyCornelius (Tue Jan 3 2006 22:31:54 )
   

If you've only read the first, original post, you're missing about 10 times as much wonderful material from the multitude of other people who responded to it. So check out the replies -- amazing, thoughtful responses. The discussion on this and another of my posts Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move has been nothing short of inspiring and astounding. Everything I've felt this board should be.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - starboardlight (Tue Jan 3 2006 22:46:38 )   


wow! i'm stunned at the level of insight. you guys are amazing.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - vkm91941 (Tue Jan 3 2006 23:16:22 )   


I have been reading the other posts here and at you other thread. There are some really insightful people posting here and I am impressed and moved and amazed everytime I check in. Thank You again to EVERYONE who thoughtfully posts their feeling, opinions and observations.

Forget about what you thought you were and just accept who you are.

Re: Final Bruderschaft thought   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 4 2006 08:30:32 )   


UPDATED Wed Jan 4 2006 08:33:46
bkamberger:

I've appreciated your fine responses, intellect, and sporting attitude immensely as well.

Another Bruderschaft thought and a somewhat tangential one, again, just when I thought it was safely put to bed.
I'd forgotten about the only other direct reference to a Bruderschaft in recent English literature -- the symbolic one between Gerald and Birkin in D.H. Lawrence's 'Women in Love'. Both men refer to their relationship as a symbolic Bruderschaft and the striving and physicality of its expression is baldly stated in their [in]famous, naked wrestling scene. That physical expression links in my mind with the extreme physicality with which Ennis and Jack initially show their own spiritual connection - confusing as it is to both of them. And the Gerald/Birlkin Bruderschaft ends badly as well with Gerald's suicide because of the inability to reconcile his place in the world with his ambiguous sexuality and self-loathing. The opposite character in that work, Birkin, the equivalent of Jack, is the one left to grieve his friend deeply, resolving, in the famous closing lines, that he will pursue his ravenous need for a physical and personal union with a male.


Ah, yes...   
by - bkamberger (Wed Jan 4 2006 09:00:52 )   


...always nice to be reminded of that wrestling scene, especially as enacted in the film version with Oliver Reed and the Adonis-like Alan Bates, may they both R.I.P.

Although I can understand why you'd equate the conflicted, self-loathing Gerald with Ennis and the more open-hearted and sexually needy Birkin with Jack, it is ironic that the fates of Lawrence's characters are the reverse of their Proulxian counterparts. "Jack, I swear..." may not be as articulate as Birkin's vow, but I think it voices a similar emotion, albeit pledging a different course of action.


Re: Final Bruderschaft thought   
by - pkdetroit (Wed Jan 4 2006 09:11:30 )
   

Damn you bkamberger! I was doin' just fine readin' one of the great discussions on these boards, miraculously troll free...then you have to go and include those lines about the shirts, and I had to gulp down a sob and quickly think of something else so I could continue reading without crying.

I too wondered if the figurine Ennis finds in Jack's room was the finished version of what he was carving up on Brokeback.
I don't believe the father "knew" Jack was gay. I think he found all that talk about coming back to the ranch, first with Ennis then the rancher neighbor, odd and confusing, but I don't think he would have made the connection to "gay". He considered his son a flighty dreamer, wierd and "too good" for the family. It is surprising what parents do not know about their sons and daughters.

"It was the Summer that Sebastian and I went to the Incantadas"


There's a powerful line in the Proulx story...   
by - bkamberger (Wed Jan 4 2006 09:54:33 )   


UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 11:35:29
...that can't quite be captured on film, alas. As Ennis is speaking to Lureen on the phone, Proulx says, "He wanted to curse her for letting Jack die on the dirt road." It's irrational to blame her for this, of course, but it does make sense that Ennis might transfer to her his own sense of guilt for not being there when Jack needed him -- both at this specific moment and throughout his life.

A lot of people have speculated that Lureen's father might have had a hand in Jack's death, but that's possible only in the film, since Proulx mentions that the father had died by that point.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - pauzhaan (Wed Jan 4 2006 14:02:57 )   


Thank you for the "essay". I'm a voracious reader, but I rarely come up with subtle interpretations like this so I appreciate those who do. I'm a "straight" 53 yo mother, spent 10years in the Air Force.

For two years at an Air Force Base in Upstate New York in the 70's I was a "girlfriend" to a wonderful gay guy. He was a good friend and I had a great time. I go to dress up and go to social and military functions with him and when ever he left the country for trips of 2-3 weeks he left me his 427 T-top Corvette to drive. His friends teased me about being a personal "fag-hag". It was a wonderful period of my life. I had a handsome male friend who could really dance and who didn't put demands on me and who was always ready to listen. He was not unlike Jack and Ennis in that he was a very rugged "manly" man.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 4 2006 20:57:31 )
   

UPDATED Wed Jan 4 2006 21:02:04
abydosianchulac2:

I find Ang Lee's use of color symbolism throughout the film consistent and fascinating. A lot of this has been discussed in earlier posts in this thread and in two other threads: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
and Spoiler: The Color Blue

The association of a 'wheat brown' color with Ennis and the 'sky or indigo blue' with Jack is very consistent throughout the film. And it's a symbolic way of Lee showing their emotional lives intertwining.
Little details such as Ennis wearing a blue wool cap in the snow-tobogganing scene with Alma, immediately after his marriage as a reminder of Jack and Brokeback. The fact that they end up driving vehicles with colors which match their respective 'beloveds' - Jack a brown truck, Ennis a blue truck. etc.

As I've posted in the Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene thread, a lot of this derives from Lee's interest in the cinematic techniques of Michelangelo Antonioni, who also employed extensive color symbolism in his middle period films.

The summation of this in Brokeback is the final shot you mention of the golden grain [Ennis] the blue sky [with which Jack has always been associated in the film] and the green - the final color suggesting to me and to another poster naun - the generational renewal in Alma, Jr. betrothal to a man who she knows loves her at the same age of 19, the age Ennis was when his loving bond was initiated with Jack.

A few thoughts, which could turn into a lively discussion. I feel that this board needs to consolidate some of the scattered technical discussion about the film, even at the risk of duplicating some of the material many of us have conceived and shared.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - Darrell-13 (Wed Jan 4 2006 21:03:31 )   


Sometimes when you buy a DVD you will have an audio track on the DVD where the story is narrated in full detail, making all of the pieces as clear as a bell.

If any story deserved one of these audio tracks - it is Brokeback Mountain. I hope to God that they add such an audio track to the DVD when it comes out. It bothers me not knowing all of the circumstances surrounding the death, what the "I swear..." was really meant to say, and several other pieces of the movie along the way that could be read several different ways.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Jan 5 2006 22:59:33 )   


UPDATED Fri Jan 6 2006 06:57:07
I can understand the desire of a lot of viewers to have more of the film made clearer. However, it seems to me that Ang Lee, Larry McMurtry, Diana Ossana, and, Annie Proulx have deliberately tried to make the story/ film as subtle, ambiguous, and, hence, as psychologically fluid as possible. That's why it works so profoundly on the psyches of persons who give in to its riches. And why it gets so 'under the skin'. Many of us have experienced the way it works its way into our thoughts, hovering in our minds for hours and days after a viewing. I've heard about this effect on other friends and anyone else who's seen it.
It's what makes Brokeback so singular and different from any other film in recent memory - the pacing, its patient yielding of its riches, and its inexplicable perfection in weaving so many different emotional strands which don't seem complex but inevitable. I've read that Proulx and Lee deliberately wanted the reader and audience to fill in the answers to the questions they raise.


I don't see how a commentary or an attempt to explain the details of how it works could be successful without cutting out or denying so much of what we experience in seeing it. Part of the film's success is that we can read more things into it, because of its ambiguity. Look at what we've come up with on the thread.

I can't see any of the film-makers wanting to do anything to jeopardize that. They've all gone out of their way to counter normal expectations, thematic and film conventions, and the normal 'answers'.
I'd prefer to be left with the questions they raise.


Re: There's a powerful line in the Proulx story...   
by - amgineurt (Fri Jan 6 2006 13:51:44 )   


...that can't quite be captured on film, alas. As Ennis is speaking to Lureen on the phone, Proulx says, "He wanted to curse her for letting Jack die on the dirt road." It's irrational to blame her for this, of course, but it does make sense that Ennis might transfer to her his own sense of guilt for not being there when Jack needed him -- both at this specific moment and throughout his life.

I think this is very significant, as it was precicely this end that Enis feared. He couldn't even consider Jack's idea of having a life together because of the depth of this fear. He gave up the possibility of happiness for it, and I think to him it makes the sacrifice of it all for naught. It's guilt and the idea that what could have been should have been if this was how it would end anyway.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - naun (Fri Jan 6 2006 15:10:28 )   


UPDATED Fri Jan 6 2006 15:17:37
I don't see how a commentary or an attempt to explain the details of how it works could be successful without cutting out or denying so much of what we experience in seeing it. Part of the film's success is that we can read more things into it, because of its ambiguity. Look at what we've come up with on the thread.

Casey,

While I can only agree that pat answers would cramp our experience of the film, I'd like to think it would be possible to present a commentary that instead opens people's eyes to the range of nuances that are implied in the film. I can't tell you how much the discussions here, not least your own contributions, have enriched my own experience of this film -- and of film generally, as a medium. Brokeback is one of the comparatively few works of high art that touch people from every walk of life. I'd like others, the people who will be watching the film on DVD in decades to come, to have these possibilities opened up to them as they have been to me.

If anything, it seems to me that Brokeback would benefit more than most films from having not just one but multiple commentary tracks, each examining the film from a different perspective.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - Darrell-13 (Fri Jan 6 2006 20:05:33 )
   

I can't see any of the film-makers wanting to do anything to jeopardize that. They've all gone out of their way to counter normal expectations, thematic and film conventions, and the normal 'answers'.
I'd prefer to be left with the questions they raise.
Not me. I think a large number of people have seen the film more than once. Besides, once you buy the DVD, the mission has already been accomplished! There is no need to withhold the answers at that point. Whether the answers are there or not I won't buy two of the DVDs. Sales should not be affected by this. Other movies have had a narrated audio track, movies that were ambiguous in places and the narrator clarifies why things are the way they are. I really don't think this will hurt sales.

Maybe though, it's possible that Proulx and Ang want to haunt people with this movie forever, and will leave it out. That would be sad.
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I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.   
by - rvognar01 (Sat Jan 7 2006 19:21:46 )   


The scholarship and sensitivity displayed by the three main participants in this discussion nearly brought the tears to my eyes which the movie has so far failed to do.


"You come see us again"--Jack's mother


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - starboardlight (Sat Jan 7 2006 19:44:16 )
   

i will have to respectfully disagree with you on this. I do not want those questions answered. so much of this film is built around mirroring Ennis's experience. i think the not knowing is very much part of what Ennis went through. That sense of being tortured by not having the answer is very much part of life, his and ours. I don't want that taken away.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - Darrell-13 (Sat Jan 7 2006 21:02:56 )   


i will have to respectfully disagree with you on this. I do not want those questions answered. so much of this film is built around mirroring Ennis's experience. i think the not knowing is very much part of what Ennis went through. That sense of being tortured by not having the answer is very much part of life, his and ours. I don't want that taken away.
You have a right to your opinion. I thought it would be a good idea for those of us who would like more details of what was going on.

One thing to keep in mind is that if the audio dialogue is not placed onto the DVD, there is nothing that you can do to put it there later. Yet if the narrative is there, you don't need to play it if you don't want to.

I have seen narrative on DVDs that were totally transparent. Who would need it explained? Yet this movie I think would need some things explained. I read the short story, and it does explain "some" things a little more than the movie does. I find that quite interesting. I actually enjoy the movie better when I know what is really going on.


Re: I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.   
by - Darrell-13 (Sat Jan 7 2006 21:10:18 )   

The scholarship and sensitivity displayed by the three main participants in this discussion nearly brought the tears to my eyes which the movie has so far failed to do.
It's funny that you should say that. I took a friend with me to one of the showings. I think it was my 2nd time seeing it. He didn't find it all that sad until I explained to him what was going on. I am not sure if he was daydreaming, or maybe he was preoccupied with something heavy on his mind. In any case, he did not even remember the first scene where Ennis said he forgot his shirt. He did not know what the story was behind the shirts. He was upset after we had a long talk about the things that he did not find clear. He also mentioned that he thought it seemed a little unreal because of the fact that the guys got together for sex so quickly after meeting on the mountain.

The thing about a movie is that you do not know how much time has passed between one segment and the next. I do know that they were together enough to talk personal matters with each other, and Jack grabbed Ennis' hand and put it onto his hard-on under the covers which I'm sure he would not do if he was not 100% comfortable with Ennis. So one has to assume that they shared a lot of emotional comfort between each other at that point.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - starboardlight (Sat Jan 7 2006 21:19:35 )   


but being on the DVD commentary, it will make its way into the dialogue about the film, on this board and elsewhere. whether I turn the commentary on or not, I'll come across it eventually, and will have to concede to that opinion given on that DVD commentary. At that point, what we think happened will not be opinions anymore. People will cite that commentary as source for definitive answer. I'd have to withdraw from the discourse entirely to hold on to my perception, and that would make me a sad mac.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - Darrell-13 (Sat Jan 7 2006 21:41:54 )   


but being on the DVD commentary, it will make its way into the dialogue about the film, on this board and elsewhere. whether I turn the commentary on or not, I'll come across it eventually, and will have to concede to that opinion given on that DVD commentary. At that point, what we think happened will not be opinions anymore. People will cite that commentary as source for definitive answer. I'd have to withdraw from the discourse entirely to hold on to my perception, and that would make me a sad mac.
By the time the DVD is released, I think many of us will be over the initial impact of the story. We will never forget the story - guaranteed, but we will be over the sadness of the story.

If they don't release the commentary on the DVD when it is released this year, I am hoping that once they start producing HD-DVDs that they will re-author the DVD to have the commentary on it. That will be far enough away.

Even the Beatles were questioned about some of their mysterious lyrics and they freely told people what the answers were. Their music still thrived. At the end of Strawberry Fields Forever it sounded like they were saying "I've Buried Paul" or "I'm Going Home". He's actually saying, "Cranberry Sauce". Look at Eleanor Rigby - wearing a smile that she keeps in a jar by the door, who is it for? Most of that stuff has been explained, but it's still damn good. I think Brokeback Mountain is a great movie. Whether the commentary comes out or not, it will never take that away from the movie. I'm sure even with the commentary there will still be things to debate. Debating is pointless though unless you can find a definitive answer. Why debate something that nobody can prove yes or no? Isn't that a waste of time?


Re: I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.   
by - pyotr-3 (Sun Jan 8 2006 08:27:01 )
   

Some people have very odd misperceptions about what they see in ANY movie. This is inevitable, I suppose.



Re: I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.   
by - Darrell-13 (Sun Jan 8 2006 08:54:36 )   


>>Some people have very odd misperceptions about what they see in ANY movie. This is inevitable, I suppose.

Yes, and sometimes it is these interpretations that makes us like the movie. I think most of what was in Brokeback Mountain was pretty obvious. I don't think there are any big misinterpretations about that story. The only things that are ambiguous is what lead up to Jack's beating and just what did Lureen really know? Whatever became of Ennis? Whatever became of Jack's ashes?


Re: I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.   
by - hibbler (Sun Jan 8 2006 16:02:41 )   

   

Whatever became of Jack's ashes?


Jack's dad said they were going in the family plot, remember?


Re: One of the most brilliant sequences in movie history   
by - juliaz3 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 08:38:08 )
   

If Judi Dench could get a Best Supporting Oscar for her ~9-minute role in "Shakespeare in Love", then certainly someone in the Academy should wake up and see that Roberta Maxwell deserves one for this role. She is astounding.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - juliaz3 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 08:41:37 )   


I totally agree Casey. There are times when I've really enjoyed a director's (or other) commentary, but some films are to me so special and so complete in themselves that I've had no desire to have any "questions answered", although I am also willing to allow those who want to dig deeper in this way their space to do so. Just don't anybody tell me what the director/actors/cinematographer said!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - juliaz3 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 08:43:24 )   


You bet.

--Ennis's reply to Jack's first postcard.


Re: One of the most brilliant sequences in movie history   
by - Flickfan-3 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 10:59:10 )   


her performance was illuminating--wonder how long she and Heath rehersed it--he said in interview that Ang Lee has long pre-production period but no instruction on set--
did anyone notice how her eyes were always shot so that there was a light gleaming in them--they should have been dead from the lack of love in her life--but they were bright and full of something that energized the viewer--at least it did me


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - quiplash 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 13:34:15 )   

"Ang Lee's brilliant final shot juxtaposes the closing closet door of Ennis's Brokeback shrine to Jack's eternal memory with the wind-swept fields of ripening golden grain visible through the trailer window and establishes a supreme ambiguity. Are the fields an image of renewal and hope OR an image of intractible inevitability? A symbol of the emotionally limited world which Ennis will inhabit the rest of his days, giving obeisance to the memory of Jack OR a foretaste of the 'Elysian fields' where Ennis/Aeneas will one day be re-united with his beloved?"

Wonderful, insightful post. Reading about the uncanny parallels you outline, it gave me a chill up the back of my head.

I caught the contrast of the final shot as well. In my review of BBM(http://www.ryanschultz.com/blog/archives/2006/01/movie_review_br.html), I said:

"Heath Ledger as ranch hand Ennis Del Mar deserves an Oscar for Best Actor. When he was on-screen he was mesmerizing. Never missed a beat. During my second viewing of Brokeback Mountain I made a point of watching Heath Ledger's face during the first half hour of the movie, and he reminds me of nothing so much as a frightened child. The only times I ever saw him with his face relaxed were when he was with Alma during the first four years, when he was with his daughter Alma Jr., and of course many of the times he was with Jack. A glimpse of the Ennis that could have been.

There's one scene at the very end of the movie that caught me off guard. If you blinked you missed it, but there's a shot of the Brokeback Mountain postcard pinned to the closet door of Ennis' trailer, which is then closed, revealing in its place the view out his trailer window: flat plain. Ennis has literally given up his mountaintop experience (and the potential to continue it) for a sad, flat life. This movie is all about giving up on your happiness and your dreams because of fear of what others may think, an issue of particular resonance for gay men my age or older."

Again, thank you for sharing your insights with us.

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Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - flics 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 14:23:03 )   


UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 14:24:07
Thank you Casey for this astonishing and truly inspiring reading of the film, and indeed that goes for the many other sensitive analyses. I was overwhelmed by the film, it rushed in on me in wave after wave of unexpected beauty and sorrow. I'd read and loved the story, but curiously had left it somewhere far away. Ennis and Jack were not with me when I first went to see the film. It moved me in ways I honestly did not think possible - I'm saying that I dipped into reserves of emotion I did not even know that I had. For the first time ever I returned to the cinema to see it a second time, in a way trying to come to terms with it, like I was laying flowers at a grave. And I find myself crying throughout the day at the thought of just a frame or two in the film, or a few bars from the soundtrack. Ennis saying "Jack, I swear". I wake up hearing it. I am sure this will pass. But I have never been grief-stricken by a film before.
I came to IMDB looking for solace and was saddened by the cretinous responses, until I came here. I hadn't seen the Aeneid references but you are spot on. They are unmistakeable once you are alerted to them. It seems clear that a course in film could be based on this one film! And this thread has helped me to start clicking the thinking part of my brain into action and enjoying all the subtle beautiful details that make up the film. It helping me to heal, and to feel like the sensible and normal person I (mostly) am.

And of course it's good to be humbled in front of great great art.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - nene2 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 14:41:23 )   


Extraordinary discussion. I hope it continues forever. I have seen the film four times, plan to see it again and again, can enjoy it just for its "musical" structure. Lee's cinematography, blocking, pacing, construction and succession of shots are simply extraordinary. And then there's the story! Endlessly fascinating and satisfying. There's so much to think and talk about.

I am surprised that, as far as I have seen, nobody in this thread has mentioned the screenplay recently published by Scribner. The dialogue and scene descriptions exactly as they occur in the film - plus the original short story and wonderful essays, written just for this publication, by Proulx, McMurtry and Ossana. It's almost like having the DVD!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - spottedreptile 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 14:45:49 )   


I'm trying to find the thread that was talking about the windows being open and Jack being the wind. When I saw it the other night I was really struck by Ennis opening Jack's bedroom window - it seemed very significant, as though he was letting Jack out or letting the wind in and I can't remember where I read someone else's thoughts about this.

There is also a line Aguirre speaks about "look what the wind blew in" re Jack. I'm guessing Jack is the Element of wind here? Makes sense - wind, sky, shifting, ephemeral, never grounded etc.

Anyone help?


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - ashleyjbear 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 15:01:53 )   




"...OR a foretaste of the 'Elysian fields' where Ennis/Aeneas will one day be re-united with his beloved?"


Elysium. In Greek mythology, the abode of the blessed, paradise. Situated at the end of the world it is here that those chosen by the gods are sent to.

I live in Paris, where lovers, and just about every pilgrim in search of beauty, will march at some point down the Champs Elysees: tr:'Elysian Fields'

In the days of Louis XIV, these were actually just fields, but in order to continue the Grand Axis from the Louvre toward his own ideal sactuary, Versailles, it was he who concieved the Champs Elysees as they are today, an avenue of timeless grandeur.



by - jlilya 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 15:12:31 )   


UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 15:37:16
When bkamberger said that the double-people were originally back to back, and then they were separated. Broken in two from the back, Broke-back, Brokeback!!!?? A good reason for the title?


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:17:04 )   

quiplash:

Thanks for sharing your insights as well. I've expanded my thoughts regarding that final shot, adding and debating other layers of meaning with some of the posters, particularly 'naun' in the discussion above. I say with absolute humility that if you've only read my original post at the begining of this thread you are missing about 10 times as much wonderful material in the subsequent posts and discussions. There's a whole solar system of topics branching off in the numerous replies. Also recommend you check out a related thread "Jack and Ennis-Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move" for more discussion of what I see as Michelangelo Antonioni touches throughout the film, particularly the final shot, which is a summing up of several themes and visual motifs.
Check out the other posts.
It's what this board should be about.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'    
by - flashframe777 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:24:47 )   

UPDATED Fri Jan 13 2006 20:50:11
I'm trying to find the thread that was talking about the windows being open and Jack being the wind. When I saw it the other night I was really struck by Ennis opening Jack's bedroom window - it seemed very significant, as though he was letting Jack out or letting the wind in and I can't remember where I read someone else's thoughts about this.

There is also a line Aguirre speaks about "look what the wind blew in" re Jack. I'm guessing Jack is the Element of wind here? Makes sense - wind, sky, shifting, ephemeral, never grounded etc.
______________________

Hey Spotted,

That was my post. But it was deleted. I was waiting for a reason to repost it. Hope Casey doesn't mind my posting it below:

"The Straw That Broke The Camel's Back"


The elements of Earth, Air, Fire and Water majorly influence Chinese Philopshy. My interest became how Ang Lee may have applied those in his directing of BBM. One of the actors, maybe Heath, talked about how Ang did a ceremony to the four corners before shooting each scene. Of course the four corners represent the above-mentioned four elements. So today, I sought to find out where they were placed, especially when they were represented in human form. I don’t have a good grasp of Taoism, and can only reference it in a very Western context…

I am not saying this was all intentional on Lee’s part. What I am trying to examine is how Superconsciousness, or the powers that be, may intervene and influence the affairs of man.

Earth – This is Ennis Del Mar. And what an extreme challenge we have here. Frankly because his name means Island by The Sea . He is the Earth engulfed by the Water. And water is the element of time. Ennis, the earth, at his pinnacle is a Mountain. Brokeback Moutain is the highpoint of Ennis Del Mar. His handicap – no man is an island.

Lee places a curious formation of salt, sugar, and pepper shakers on a table in front of Alma, the morning she waits at the table for Ennis to come back from his tryst with Jack Twist. The three, forgive me, Condiments, form the shape of a Mountain, not unlike Brokeback, next to which is a cup of black coffee. It speaks of Alma’s experience with Ennis – bittersweet. Mountains are immovable, unchanging, at least in the moment of now. And so is Ennis Del Mar.

Air - This is Jack Twist. Jack, uncontained and ungrounded by Earth, moves from place to place, rodeo to rodeo. In the first few scenes we see the wind blowing the grasses next to a moving train. Off in the distance we see a moving truck. The wind kicks up a storm as Jack drives into view. This is Jack Twist, the wind. Jack represents the freedom of the wind, and the danger of a tornado (Twist...Twister).

As a testimony to the sign of air, Joe Aguirre says point blank to Jack Twist, upon his third attempt seeking work on Brokeback, “Well, look what the wind blew in!” Windows originate from wind. Later on that.

Fire – the element, is warmth and passion. What happens when something touches fire? In a literal sense, one gets burned. In a figurative sense, one get’s tested. If the test is passed, one becomes pure. The element of fire represents the love affair between Ennis and Jack. The fire almost dies down in front of the tent that first night, but it’s stoked by body heat moments later.

Later when the men part after Brokeback, some part of that fire was exchanged between the two and radiated like those campfire embers for 4 years. The moment Jack and Ennis reunite we see a spark, a flame, and a wildfire.

Water : In this story, water represents the element of time, passing slowly, passing quickly, water under the bridge. It works against Jack and Ennis in the smaller picture, but in the bigger one it etches their love into something as solid as stone.

In one of the most powerful scenes Jack stands in front of a river…a river that previously reflected a mirror image of two magnificent mountains, and says, as if to himself, “Never enough time, never enough.”

Character Flaws revealed and resolved:

In a back to back sequence Ang Lee uncovers the central flaws of Jack and Ennis.

Jack’s flaw is recklessness. The scene where Jack hits on the rodeo clown, who, by the way, is dressed in clothing similar in style and color to those that Ennis wore. Jack get’s rejected, and possibly even exposed due to his lack of judgment, and inability to gauge a correct degree of discretion. Actions of the sort can be a life-threatening experience for a gay man in a sh*tkicker bar.

Ennis’ flaw is revealed in the next scene. Insulted by fowl-mouthed greasers, Ennis’ unbridled emotion overcomes him, and causes him to beat the heck out of those guys. Poor Alma seems shocked at Ennis’ rage. Fireworks by the dawn’s early light go off in the background to underscore it.

Recklessness meets up with rage on the last trip shared by Ennis & Jack. Jack’s Mexico recklessness meets Ennis’ uncontrollable rage causing Ennis to shut down and stuff. Jack explodes. Ennis implodes.

Observations:

As Jack dances with Lureen the first night at the kickerclub, he is completely surrounded by temptation in the form of men, ALL, save one, who are dressed like Ennis Del Mar – white patterned rodeo shirt with print and jeans! Just like rodeo clown in an earlier scene. At the end of this scene Jack drops the mask he’s put up for Lureen, and we see the depth of his sorrow. It’s as if he realizes he must submit if he ever hopes to survive in the world around him. Lureen takes the lead from then on out.

Lureen is Ennis in female form. Revolting against Daddy, she snags Jack and takes control from the back seat of the car to the back seat of the business. She, like Ennis, is Earth. She’s practical, a numbers cruncher, an unmovable mountain.

Alma is Jack Twist in female form. She is an idealist, and a demanding one at that. Jack is no different on Brokeback…demanding more than beans, not settling for less than elk. Alma, like Jack, has a set of needs that she seeks to have filled. They move into the town apartment, and the suggestions that Ennis seek better employment.

Finished Before They Began

Both of these marriages were finished long before Jack & Ennis reunite after 4 years. The reason they even do reunite is because Ennis knows its over, and begin’s to withdraw from Alma. Munroe, by this time already had designs on Alma, as witnessed in the store.

Jack knows it’s over mainly because it never really began. Jack & Lureen’s relationship was the inverse of Ennis and Alma’s. Ennis, due to emotional fragmenting, pushed people away. Jack, due to the fragmenting of his family, pulled people to himself to fill the void. Jack & Lureen worked because it was an arrangement. Ennis & Alma didn’t work out because it was a masquerade.

And Monroe – he’s just Ennis with an education, a few more layers of fat, and a few more aspirations. Most importantly, for Alma at least, there was no ring of fire Monroe needed to walk through. Monroe was never tested in the way that Ennis has been.

Numerology and Esoteric Symbols

Alma & Jack’s laundry apartment number is 2. The arcane represented by the number Two, in hebrew is Gimel, or camel. It corresponds to safety. As if a journey through a desert is made with a beast of burden like a camel, horse, burro, mule, etc. Ennis shoots a coyote that was big enough to eat a Camel. He smokes Camel cigs - we see him put 2 packs in his shirt pocket. Brokeback Mountain is symbolic of the last straw...

THE STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL'S BACK.

In arcana 2 is not the number of the lovers, as one might initially think (that would be 6). It is the issue of money and possessions, the electric knife as opposed to the manual knife. That was Alma’s focus in this place.

Ennis’ mailbox at the trailerpark was #17. It reduces numerologically to 8, which means rebirth. It represents a Phoenix, a magic bird of fire, that rises from the ashes of death. Ennis, has certainly walked through the fire, and come out other side.

There are at least 2 phallic symbols that I found, but won’t go into detail. One happens as Jack get’s to ride the winning bull. The other happens the first Tent Night between Jack & Ennis, and involves the strategic placement of a coffee pot.


The Point of No Return

On the final trip together, Jack has pushed past the point of no return. We hear his final plea to Ennis delivered in a vocal register from his younger days, “Truth is, sometimes, I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.” Ladies and Gentlemen, Jack Twist has left the building. Spirit knows the time and place, and this is the foreboding. The shell of Jack that remained did so as a last ditch effort to make a run for the border – to no avail.

With a river in front of him reflecting the element of water, the test of time, we hear him say “Never enough time, never enough”, knowing on some spiritual level that it had run out. Jack heads up to Lightning Flat for the last time in the flesh to help spirit seed his final gift to Ennis…the Brokeback Shirts.

Open A Window, and Let The Light In:

In major arcana a window represents an opportunity for spirit (a higher element of fire) to enter into human consciousness (as opposed to human subconscious). It also symbolizes opening a place in the heart.

Ennis waits excitedly at his own open window looking for the first sign of Jack to drive up for their reunion.

Much later, Ennis ventures up to Jack’s room, in tears, and opens Jack’s window. He sits, as if waiting for a response. Spirit, the spirit of Jack Twist, enters his consciousness, and guides Ennis to a memento of their relationship, 2 shirts hidden in a secret crevice of Jack’s closet. Ennis and Jack intermingled and intertwined.

As Ennis exits the house and stands outside of the door we see above his head, Jack’s still open window, and it’s almost as if Jack stands beside it saying farewell watching over him or perhaps, I will wait for you here until you join me for the next journey.

In the final scene – a picture window of the world, as revealed by Ennis’ closet door closing shut. We can’t really tell if the window is sealed shut or if maybe just the handle is missing. But we do know that Ennis has opened his heart, and when the heart is open, other windows of opportunity can appear at any time.

Is this Ennis’ rebirth, the bird of fire, up from the ashes?

Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.



"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Former IMDb Name: True Oracle of Phoenix / TOoP (I pronounce it "too - op") / " in fire forged,  from ash reborn" / Currently: GeorgeObliqueStrokeXR40

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Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - CaseyCornelius 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:42:31 )   


hey flashframe:

Absolutely delighted to have your 'Straw/Camel' post back. I'd searched through the first 80 pages of the board hoping to find it and a link for spotted reptile, but couldn't find it. It's full of wonderful brilliant insights. Bravo!!
Did you, personally, delete it? Or was it deleted by the administrator? I'm thinking that I should copy some of the material here in case it gets deleted by some random action. It's too good to lose.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - flashframe777 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:51:03 )   


UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 23:01:57
I didn't delete it. A lot of threads were gone the next day. I figured imdb was trying to save bandwidth.

BTW - I have been totally into this thread since it first appeared, and really enjoy your thoughts on this Casey.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


(TOoP's note: What none of us knew at the time was that this was the beginning of the silent trolls attacks that brought down thread after thread of incredible postings here... IMDB adminstators stood by as thread after thread in these forums were deleted. In frustration, many of these posters started up and moved to a new site: BetterMost.org)

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - CaseyCornelius 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 23:31:10 )   


UPDATED Thu Jan 12 2006 07:04:36
flashframe:

Right back at you. Have appreciated your contributions as well!

I got a little spooked by your experience having your "Straw/Camel" post arbitrarily deleted. When I think of how great it was, to think that it could just disappear is appalling - especially considering the dross which remains on this board.

I've taken the liberty of copying your Straw/Camel post for preservation. Hope you don't mind. As well as the Lake Scene and Classical References posts and replies.
We could write a book.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - Ellemeno 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 23:35:21 )   


"We could write a book."

I have two responses:
1) Do it!!
2) We all have written an encyclopedia, 79,872 posts and counting.

Write the book!


I'll stick with beans............
......................Well, I won't.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - flashframe777 6 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 01:26:32 )   


LOL! Of the two of us...you're the true intellect...I'm just groping around in the dark for answers.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - Ellemeno 6 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 02:45:50 )   


"I'm just groping around in the dark for answers."

flashframe777, just like Jake in the first tent scene, and look what he found!


I'll stick with beans............
......................Well, I won't.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - spottedreptile 6 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 03:00:23 )   


oh my thank you so much Flashframe! I've been looking and looking for that post. How bizarre that it got deleted, maybe by mistake?

Anyway it's just GREAT that you brought it back. I'm going to save it to my hard drive so it won't get lost again.

yeah, that book would be a big 'un.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - naun 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 07:12:23 )
   

We could write a book.

Casey, flashframe777, it may interest you to know that somebody apparently is planning to edit a volume of essays on Brokeback Mountain. It's mentioned right at the end of the article linked below. Perhaps you could contribute to the book?

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2005/12/15/news/wyoming/326c9c98ce1669d3872570d70075314f.txt

Flashframe777, thanks for reposting your earth/air/fire/water analysis, which has been a thrill to read. I missed it the first time. The equation of water, in the form of the passing river, with the passage of time hadn't occurred to me. I suppose you are thinking of the saying about never stepping in the same river twice, and the two lovers never recapturing their time on Brokeback Mountain. Previously I'd associated the water with the idea of purity and guiltlessness, which I suppose is a fairly obvious association to make.

I'd also never noticed the parallel between the two window scenes, but had been intrigued by Ennis' action of opening the window. Your interpretation makes wonderful sense of it, and also of the shots that follow in that scene, which, as someone pointed out on this board, subliminally suggest Jack's presence in the room. The air/wind idea adds something to that final shot in the movie as well, where we see the stalks swaying in the breeze.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 07:22:47 )   


ashleyjbear:

I know the Grand Axis well. On a visit this past summer I walked from the Louvre through the Arche de Triomphe to the Grande Arche of La Defense marvelling at the Grand Perspective and the vision of both Louis XIV and the Grand Travaux of Francois Mitterand.
However, walking past the current megastores on the Champs Elysees it's hard to reconcile the vision of Elysium [Greek derivation] or the interchangeable Elysian Fields [Anglicized Latin derivation via French] with your description of the original whether Attic or Parisian.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - goldilocks_78 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 07:27:37 )   


Casey Cornelius (and all others):

Thank you so much for your insightful comments and all your interpretations. This might be a never-ending thread! I actually spent hours reading through it and it has been among the most meaningful spent time I can think of. People like you make it worth coming back to this board for a high-altitude spiritual experience once in a while. This topic deserves to be remembered and if it is not a good idea to have commentaries on the DVD, then at least this written discussion could surely have been published with the DVD, hell yeah. It is true that the immediate experience of seeing a movie is each person’s own. Also, details of a story can have a different meaning to the author, the moviemaker and the viewer. However, to hear other people’s interpretations enriches the experience. I think that many people who see this movie for the first time just do not see the significance of all the little things and come back saying “What was the fuzz about? This was just another boring, slow movie where nothing really happened.” Reading a discussion like this leaves me in awe of the depths of this movie and of Ang Lee’s genius. Your comment also added substance to my sombre and unsettling feeling about the whole scene with Ennis in Lightning Flat. This was the part of the movie that I think worked most profoundly on my psyche, and left me disturbed. And it is unbelievable that there are so many things I have not yet noticed after two viewings. This movie is a great piece of art and can be seen over and over again, each time noticing significant details and use of symbols, each time adding new depths. Oh, I have to go and watch it again.

What amazes me the most about the making of the movie is how well they have kept it in line with the original short-story. Imagine, such a sparsely written story, with such huge depths. And everything that is added just enriches it and makes it into something bigger. And discussing it makes it into something overwhelming. Funny, for instance, how this one discussion is already far longer than the short-story…

While you are into use of symbolism though, I would like to add something that I am surprised hasn’t yet been mentioned, which is the hats. (Or have I just missed it? If so, I’m sorry). I don’t know if it is far-fetched or just too obvious, but we once earlier discussed the significance of the hats. The hats seem to be used as shields to hide themselves behind, emotionally. At their first meeting, it is obvious that Jack cannot get through and get to know Ennis, as his face is completely hidden beneath his hat. In the second tent scene, Jack takes Ennis’ hat and puts it to the ground, i.e. putting down Ennis’ defenses. When they say goodbye after their descent from Brokeback and Ennis says he won’t return the next summer, the until then open Jack closes down and returns inside himself, dropping his head, looking down and disappearing behind his hat. When they reunite, Ennis does not wear a hat. And, on my second viewing, I noticed another interesting detail: In the scene by the campfire where, at first, Ennis is lying on his back on the ground, hatless, completely at ease, saying that he is thanking his lucky star [for Jack not bringing the harmonica…] and so on, then Jack says: “You know it could be like this, always..” and proposes to start a ranch together etc…. Right away, Ennis sits up, takes his hat on and hides himself again, closes up completely, starts mumbling. “I told you, it ain’t gonna be that way”.

These are just immediate thoughts by a non-scholar though… but it is thrilling to think of that probably nothing is accidental and everything is there for a purpose.

Again, thank you so much for creating and contributing to this beautiful thread! (and BUMP away)


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI   
by - goldilocks_78 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 07:39:00 )   


There is also a line Aguirre speaks about "look what the wind blew in" re Jack. I'm guessing Jack is the Element of wind here? Makes sense - wind, sky, shifting, ephemeral, never grounded etc.
Wow, thanks for bringing in that line! I smiled to myself when watching that as all I could think about was Donnie Darko's father saying: "Look what the cat drew in!" Didn't know if that was an intentional parallell or not.

Seems to me that people's immediate interpretations to this movie are on somewhat different levels... What a joy that we can go to this board and get some more substance to our own experiences...


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - flashframe777 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 09:12:23 )   


Goldilocks...Great commentary on the hats.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - adammc80 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 09:23:21 )   


Ennis ascends the deathly, bare stairs to Jack's room where he finds the only true repository of any of the memories of his childhood, the core of his personality. The bare room looking out over the dusty plain and down "the only road" he had every known is heart-breaking. A simple cot for a bed. The rest of the room consists of reminders of Jack's failed dreams. A desk and chair where he failed to make an impression as a scholar. A cowboy figurine is a mocking reminder of his failure to achieve his dream of becoming a cowboy himself. The small .22 hanging in a wooden rack is a mockery of his lack of marksmanship evident earlier in the film. The only thing representing anything of value he might have achieved is the iconic/cult object of his true and abiding love for Ennis - the two shirts hidden away from the prying eyes of Jack's father and the rest of the world. Only his Mother would have been party to their significance.

This part of your post moved me to tears, CaseyCornelius. I never thought of it like that. Absolutely heart-breaking.
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Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - nene2 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 13:03:57 )
   

Regarding hats, note that in the scene in the house with Jack's parents, Ennis is hatless, neither wears nor carries a hat. For the first time we encounter Ennis Del Mar - and Heath Ledger - stripped bare, in the rough, exposed and cruelly open. He is finally ready to confront Jack with total honesty.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - ashleyjbear 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 13:07:03 )
   

"...I walked from the Louvre through the Arche de Triomphe to the Grande Arche of La Defense marvelling at the Grand Perspective and the vision of both Louis XIV and the Grand Travaux of Francois Mitterand."

This is precisely the sentiment of 'timeless grandeur' I intended, not the 'megastores'. I think we're in violent agreeement...


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - The_Naked_Librarian 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 13:59:40 )
   

That moment when you first see Jack's room, how spare and mean it is, is as piercing as anything I've seen in a movie. It only occurred to me later how very like it Ennis's trailer is--even down to the shirts in the closet and the view out the window. I think you can read that any number of ways. Possibly it means Ennis is finally ready, like Jack was already in childhood, to dream of a better life and try to live it (as signified by his at long last allowing his daughter fully into his life, and vice versa). Yet somehow in my heart I don't believe that, because the movie leaves me more with the ache of regret than with any great hope.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'   
by - austendw 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 15:45:23 )   


But, starting with a higher, comparitively 'jarring', noticeably contrasting, overhead shot of Ennis's head, Jack's Mother's bony hand enters the frame, and touches Ennis's shoulder, breaking the 'spell' of the Father's disdain and hatred for what his son was. She [as the screenplay directions indicate] has never been a part of her husband's life, but has endured the hatred which he feels for their only son.

That may be the best and most powerful shot of the whole movie for me. I am very impressed with your analysis of this scene in filmic terms.


Deliberate Classical references and Questions....   
by - flashframe777 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 17:27:32 )   


UPDATED Thu Jan 12 2006 17:30:10
What's your take on the quick scene where Ennis is laying down hot pavement talking to the guy who says something to the effect of, "My wife keeps asking me to quit. But I tell her strong backs and weak minds run in my family"? It happens right after Ennis' wedding. I know it's there for a reason. The first time I saw the scene, I just thought the man was just there to annoy Ennis. Now I think that it shows a man who was in a loving marriage holding up a mirror to Ennis, who was not in a loving marriage. His wife wants him home, but Alma want's Ennis to work harder. Your take?

There are lots of references to Ice throughout the movie. Lureen tells Jack he wore the parka last when they had that big Ice Storm (I have not seen the movie - "Ice Storm"). Then there's the hailstorm. Ennis falls asleep and his tent gets covered in the snow. The first time we see Alma and Ennis together it is in a field of snow. I relate the snow to water, and water to time...so snow would be "a moment frozen in time."


"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Deliberate Classical references and Questions....   
by - austendw 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 05:29:26 )
   

There are lots of references to Ice throughout the movie. Lureen tells Jack he wore the parka last when they had that big Ice Storm (I have not seen the movie - "Ice Storm"). Then there's the hailstorm. Ennis falls asleep and his tent gets covered in the snow. The first time we see Alma and Ennis together it is in a field of snow. I relate the snow to water, and water to time...so snow would be "a moment frozen in time."

I tend to think of ice as the quintessence of coldness, viewed either physically or metaphorically - emotionally. Ennis's snow covered tent suggests his loneliness, his need for emotional warmth and affection. On the night of their first f-ck, Ennis is sleeping alone outdoors under a thin film of icy dew (unless I'm misremembering?) and it is this extreme coldness, and aloneness, which at last gets him snuggled up with Jack in the tent. In fact it may be precisely in order to emphasise this image of coldness/aloneness that the film makes a change from the story at this point: in the story Ennis moves from the tent's ground sheet to the bed roll; in the film it's from outside the tent to inside.

Alma and Ennis in the snow may suggest that the warmth Ennis has with Jack is really lacking in their relationship. The parka? Well, I reckon that's just a parka. And as to the hail storm, I'm afraid my memory isn't functioning well - I have only a vague recollection of that scene: I've only seen the movie once, last Sunday, and until I've been to see it again (and maybe take notes) I'm not going to be able to make any even vaguely intelligent comments.

Cheers



Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - jlilya 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 11:21:11 )   


This next two paragraphs were written by Casey Cornelius and bkamberger, respectivley and it made me think about the title of the book:

The 'two in one' has just now suggested to me the image from Plato's 'Symposium' in which there is a discussion of why we fall in love with various persons - an absurd simplification being the idea that we were all originally part of a double-entitiy being which later was split into two, spending the rest of our lives trying to match up to our corresponding half, whether it be another male or another female. I'm tempted to link this allusion to the unified two-in-one image of the shirts, but will have to give it more thought.


The Aristophanes story in the Symposium is a very interesting correlation, particularly since the playwright emphasized that the double-people were originally back to back. Much is made throughout the story of Jack and Ennis not looking at each other, and it's hinted this is because, deep down, they can't face the fact that their "double" is a man.

This is what i think: If this is what Annie Proulx had in mind then the title Brokeback Mountain would tend to support this. In essence Jack and Ennis, the double-entity is split down the middle, in this case down the back, or broken at the back, hence Brokeback.

I always thought it interesting how Annie structured the beginning of the story. She says in the first line "They were raised" , not "Jack was raised in lightening flat" and "Ennis was raised around Sage", but she puts them together right from the start by saying "They" were raised and then she immediately pulls them apart and shows they are opposites (in opposite corners of the state) and describes them as opposites showing Jack's dynamism ( Jack Twist, Lightening Flat, Montana Border) and Ennis's more laid back personality ( Ennis del Mar, from around Sage, Utah line). Then she continues to show there similarities ( from small poor ranches, both high-school dropout country boys, both rough mannered, brought up to hard work and privation, etc.)
So anyway, I'm really buying your ideas about Plato's symposium and the guys being two halfs of a whole. I never could quite totally get the title of the book and it's proiminece in the story, she keeps repeating the name brokeback, but now I think it makes sense, at least to me.
I wanted to comment on one more thing that Casey wrote:

And when one of them meets with his other half, the actual half of himself,[ ]the pair are lost in amazement of love and friendship and intimacy, and will not be out of the other's sight, as I may say, even for a moment: [ ]

Is this possibly one of the reasons for Annie's paragragh " During the day Ennis looked across a great gulf, and sometimes saw Jack......Jack, in his dark camp as night fire."
Also, You could argue that once they leave each other that summer that they are out of each others sights, but from this point on the shirts are together "one inside each othere like two skins" so aren't they really still together, at least in a symbolic or you could say spiritual sense.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - starboardlight 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 11:28:17 )   


Jlilya wrote:
This is what i think: If this is what Annie Proulx had in mind then the title Brokeback Mountain would tend to support this. In essence Jack and Ennis, the double-entity is split down the middle, in this case down the back, or broken at the back, hence Brokeback.


I love that interpretation.


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - flashframe777 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 11:40:02 )   


The shirts were a talisman that kept them together - Jack's most cherished dream. After twenty years, the talisman becomes a third dimensional connection or portal between the twin souls of Jack & Ennis. Ennis and Jack are together every night in his dreams. And in the morning Ennis hopes a panel of the dream will slide forward - to paraphrase Proulx.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


a mother's love=redemption   
by - yaadpyar 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 13:28:30 )
   

UPDATED Mon Jan 16 2006 13:55:28
For me, one of the most touching aspects of the scene in Jack's parent's home is that Ennis has finally visited Jack's home - finally gone where Jack had been asking him to go for years - but it's Jack's death, the end of their relationship, that enables Ennis to finally take this step. By then, it's too late to have any meaning to Jack, but it's full of meaning for Ennis. He has finally said yes to Jack, and it's just tragic that he's better able to say yes to honor a memory than to say yes in life to nourish love. Ennis holds their love in a sacred space inside of himself, and has been terrified that exposing that love to life in the real world would destroy it and them in the process. Sadly and so ironicaly, Jack is destroyed anyway, without the comfort of knowing that they made the most of the time they had available.

With Jack's death, Ennis is finally able to give himself over completely to this love without the tricky complication of finding a place on earth for them to be together. He can confess his love for Jack in death in a way he never could in life. He speaks to Jack's wife, visits Jack's home and parents, and tells each one of them how he feels about Jack - something he's never before done.

There is only one woman who understands the full truth of Jack and Ennis, and it's Jack's mother. Jack's death has stripped away all of Ennis's excuses - his excuses for not being available, for not making room in his life for what was in his heart. In Jack's mother, Ennis finally finds the one individual who knows the truth, accepts and embraces the love they share. I think her acceptance combined with Jack's death, finally melts something that had remained "ice cold" in Ennis' heart until then.

You can see Jack's mother longing to connect more deeply with Ennis, to talk with him, maybe to hold him, to know and love her son's one true love, to share stories and memories, to connect to Jack through Ennis. But in the same way that Ennis is emotionally constrained/restrained by his fear of those around him, she is restricted from speaking or expressing herself more fully in the presence of her harsh and angry husband. So - everything that can be said without words is communicated in longing silence through their eyes, a language in which Ennis and the mother are both fluent, but one that Jack never spoke well. Jack's mother's longing to connect with Ennis paralells Jack's struggle to connect with Ennis - a longing unfulfilled but undeniable.

I think the visit to Jack's home is Ennis's redemption. His love for Jack broke him down, and the love of Jack's mother restores him. The acknowledgement from Jack's mother in such a simultaneously subtle and obvious manner, despite the father's anger, brings Ennis back to life - gives him persmission to fully feel the entirety of his love Jack for the first time. Ennis can accept love from this woman in a way that he cannot even from Jack.

The poignancy of their meeting is highlighted when Ennis departs the house, holding the paper bag which contains proof of thier love (the shirts). He is hatless, not shielded in any way, and he makes full eye contact with Jack's mother. In my memory, this is the only time we see Ennis make fully expressive eye contact where his words of thanks match the gratitude in his eyes.

Acknowledging in Jack's death what he couldn't in Jack's life opens Ennis to at least the possibility of real connection. In the very last scene when he finally says yes to his daughter, he is finally saying yes to embracing belonging and family. Finally, he is not delaying, avoiding or denying love this time.

And I think this is part of what Ennis is swearing to Jack - swearing that he will always be true to their sacred love, swearing that he will never forget, swearing that their love was true, and swearing that their love will live on in every moment of love Ennis experiences.



Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - flashframe777 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 14:13:13 )   


And I think this is part of what Ennis is swearing to Jack - swearing that he will always be true to their sacred love, swearing that he will never forget, swearing that their love love was true, and swearing that their love will live on in every moment of love Ennis experiences.
_______________________________

Wonderfully put.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 16:38:26 )   


jlilya:

I hadn't even thought of the image of Brokeback being linked with an allusion to the 'Symposium' and the separation of lovers. But, your idea is fascinating.
Don't know if Annie Proulx would have intentionally made a connection, but your suggestion certainly suggests an unconscious or archetypal one.
Great work !!
Former IMDb Name: True Oracle of Phoenix / TOoP (I pronounce it "too - op") / " in fire forged,  from ash reborn" / Currently: GeorgeObliqueStrokeXR40