"Ennis's Maledictions" -- by CaseyCornelius

[TOoP/Bruce]

Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 29 2006 23:28:14 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 30 2006 09:14:47
Another viewing tonight and realized a woeful, immensely ironic detail in the final Lake Scene between Jack and Ennis. I noticed that Ennis unintentionally wishes ill or threatens and essentially 'curses' [a little strong perhaps] Jack three times during their final evening and morning together:

1] smoking the joint and 'bragging'/ b.s.-ing about the respective women they're involved with [Jack's is of course a lie - in retrospect he's involved with Randall the ranch foreman] Jack says that he "expect(s) to get shot by Lureen or the husband one, ever'time [he] slip(s) off to see her" to which Ennis laughs and says he probably would deserve it. Immensely ironic this.

2] there's Ennis's violent line to Jack as he pummels him on the chest "What I don't know, all the things I don't know could get you killed if I should come to know them."

3] and the final heart-breaking reaction of Ennis to Jack's "quit you" line --
"They why don't you?! Why don't you let me be?" essentially wishing him out of his life.

It's perhaps too strong to see these maledictions as intentional on Ennis's part, but I was struck by the number of them and how they might increase the later regret and sense of guilt in Ennis for his failure in not protecting Jack.

I'll link this to something I've stated before about the scene where Ennis reads the returned DECEASED-stamped postcard. Immediately prior to it, a truck the exact color and style which we had last seen Jack driving crosses from left to right in the background in front of Ennis just before he freezes in shock -- as if Jack's spirit is symbolically exiting the story. Jack when driving in his truck - notably in the shot of him heading for Mexico - traverses the screen in that same direction when detaching himself from Ennis, but a truck travelling in the reverse direction is associated with them uniting with each other - eg. going into the mountains for the reunion after the four year hiatus.


Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - BannerHill (Sun Jan 29 2006 23:42:26 )   
   
So the truck is symbolic of Jack....leaving him?



"I can't believe I left my damn shirt up there!"


Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - flashframe777 (Sun Jan 29 2006 23:45:52 )   

Great Casey,

I noticed the one, but not the other two. There are three maledictions.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar[/quote]

Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 29 2006 23:46:56 )   

More of a visual association with the thought that Jack has finally been lost to Ennis.


Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - spottedreptile (Mon Jan 30 2006 00:38:43 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 30 2006 00:41:29
just curious, have people broken apart and discussed aspects of casablanca with such detail? or is it just a gay thing?

OK that's it. Ignore button. Click.

Thanks for the post btw Casey. Interesting idea.
Is Ennis Cassandra-like, or is he actually like Oedipus, self-fulfilling prophecies etc?
Or he is just unable to see a positive future in anything?


Oedipal Inevitability   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 30 2006 07:47:11 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 18:38:33
spottedreptile:

If I had to choose, more akin to Oedipus, though I don't see his behavior as enabling self-fulfilling prophecies as much as a reaction to the fear of violent homophobia which was laid upon him by his father at the age of 9 when he was forced to witness the desecrated body of Earl. All of his fear and own internal homophobia is linked to this 'curse' - his inability to respond to Jack's suggestion to live openly together -- ie. "two men? no way !!"; "it ain't gonna be like that"; his lines later in the film when he expresses his fears about 'people in town' finding out about him; his violent response to Alma upon her declaring him homosexual at the Thanksgiving dinner.
There's an inevitability in the story and the film which Annie Proulx indicated when she said she wrote it with tears in her eyes over their difficult lives, but that it couldn't end any other way. It definitely suggests the inevitably of Classical Greek tragic character such as Oedipus.


Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - henrypie (Mon Jan 30 2006 07:51:54 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 30 2006 07:53:47
before the cock crows, you will deny me thrice


Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - jscheib (Mon Jan 30 2006 08:19:32 )   

<<There's an inevitability in the story and the film which Annie Proulx has stated when she said she wrote it with tears in her eyes over their difficult lives, but that it couldn't end any other way. It definitely suggests the inevitably of Classical Greek tragic character such as Oedipus.>>

Absolutely. I've certainly noticed what I called a "mythic" quality to the story. I don't want to change the subject here, but this is why I believe, with Ennis, that it was the tire iron.


Ennis's Three-fold Denial - an Allusion to Christ/Peter?   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 30 2006 09:01:16 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 18:39:58
henrypie:

Peter's three-fold denial of Christ had associated itself in my mind, due to the number of maledictory statements by Ennis. But, I can't push it that far as I don't see Jack as alluding to a Christ-like figure. AND, I'll be the first to admit that I'm already pushing Ennis's comments to a thrice-stated numerical significance, since the first one I mentioned could merely be counted as light-heartedness as Ennis delivers it with an accompanying chuckle.


Re: Ennis's guilt and Oedipus--spoilers   
by - Flickfan-3 (Mon Jan 30 2006 09:37:00 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 30 2006 09:42:07
Casey, first of all, thanks for a voice of reason in the reigning hysteria of most of current threads.
Re your comment...
Immediately prior to it (reading the returned postcard) , a truck the exact color and style which we had last seen Jack driving crosses from left to right in the background in front of Ennis just before he freezes in shock -- as if Jack's spirit is symbolically exiting the story.
I noticed a truck each time I saw the film but I thought it was very similar to Jack's first one, the old blue truck...now I have another reason to see it again (like I needed one).

It's perhaps too strong to see these maledictions as intentional on Ennis's part, but I was struck by the number of them... and henrypie's later great reminder before the cock crows, you will deny me thrice. Don't know anything about Chinese numerology as you have discussed in other threads but conventionally the number 3 has power--remember the saying "three times is the charm" and the superstitious belief that bad events come in threes...The Greeks believed in not one but three Fates, sisters who spun the threads of lives and decided when to cut them off.

However, I don't know that I agree with you that Ennis would feel an overwhelming sense of responsibility for his death by challenging Jack to leave him with such vehemence...Certainly he is almost immobilized with grief at losing Jack and that knowledge has him change certain aspects of his behavior. But can you cite any examples from the film or text to us indicating he feels responsibility that those particular actions precipitated Jack's fate?

In your second posting you mention I don't see his behavior as enabling self-fulfilling prophecies as much as a reaction to the fear of violent homophobia

Could Ennis's self-realization and mortification have played a significant role in his firm belief that Jack was murdered by tire bashing? Was "his" knowledge of the "truth" of Jack's death, perhaps, the actual product of his rejection of his responsibility in the verbal "cursing" of their relationship as well as his homophobia and its overt rejection of an open life with Jack? Psychologically, could Ennis ever accept Lureen's version of accidental death by that exploding tire rim (or any other reason) even with other evidence to support it? (And I am not saying there is any--this are hypothetical questions, guys...)

Hopefully you--at least--will notice that I am not talking about which death was the "real/reel" version--that does not even matter in this discussion of Ennis's grief, guilt, homophobic conditioning, and need for absolution.

I would be very interested to read your logical insight/analysis about the role Ennis's own sense of guilt plays in his unswerving belief in accidental death. Sophocles's play leaves no doubt that Oedipus's fate was set in place before his birth, that he committed the violations w/o knowlege of impropriety, but became a a pawn of the Fates neverthless. Qedipus blinded himself when he realized how he transgressed -- did Ennis "blind" himself to the truth of Jack's death and create a false one to escape the realization that his homophobia was the weakest link in the chain binding him to Jack?

Anyone who reads this and wants to reply, please don't turn this into a discussion of how Jack died--that is not my purpose at all. My question is about what Ennis's sense of guilt/responsibility would lead him to do--there is a difference....at least in my mind.


Ennis's guilt and Oedipus--spoilers BUMP   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 30 2006 21:40:52 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 30 2006 21:42:12
flickfan:
Will get back with some thoughts later, but bumping this in the mean-time so that others can discover it and reply.

A Multitude of Multifarious Allusions - WARNING Contents Under Pressure!   
by - CaseyCornelius (Tue Jan 31 2006 15:58:28 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 18:42:13
Flickfan-3:
Finally got some time to get back to this board and reply to you.

1] The truck which passes in the background just before Ennis reads the DECEASED postcard is a brown one [sorry, don't know enough about vehicle makes and models] almost identical in style to the one Jack is driving in their last scene. It's definitely not the blue one, Ennis is driving that color in the final scene - another instance of a trading of their respective assoicated colors.

2] I steered away from the Peter-Christ denial allusion as I don't believe there is overt Christian symbolism is the film. But, I do agree with you that whether Christian, Chinese, Greek, Egyptian, Wiccan or whatever believe, three definitely plays an important role. But, as I've already mentioned, I feel funny about resolutely declaring the number of maledictions to be three, as I feel the first one I gave as an example is said more in jest by Ennis. Don't want to be accused of overanalyzing and seeing more than is actually there - I'm getting a little sensitive about that.

3] It's obvious that Ennis had an innate fear instilled in him regarding the association of love between two men and a violent end from an early age. I don't believe that he would have felt any responsiblity for Jack's death due to ill or maledictory feelings [probably extrapolated the 'curse' motif a little too far in earlier post] and certainly would not have felt that he had cursed him in any way. Ennis's deep self-hatred as a homosexual man and Jack's lover created intense confusion in him which was exacerbated by the homophobic fear instilled in him by his father, someone who should have been a protector and sympathetic with the young Ennis, but betrayed that trust by instilling fear in him - "Hell, for all I know, he done the job?"

4] After 8 viewings I still find that Lee, McMurtry and Ossana have been so uncompromisingly ambiguous about the true nature of Jack's death that I have to take them 'at their word' and assume it's irrelevant to the story as far these creators are concerned. The screenplay says of Ennis during the telephone scene with Lureen, "He doesn't know which way it was, the tire iron--or a real accident, blood choking down JACK's throat and nobody to turn him over." There is the brief inserted shot of Ennis's imagining of a violent end which convinces a lot of viewers that 'it was the tire iron'.

But, the screenplay describes the scene of "a MAN being beaten unmercifully by THREE ASSAILANTS, one of whom uses a tire iron." - ie. the screenplay did not intend for the 'victim' to obviously be Jack and I'm still not sure if the 'victim' actually shot in the film is Jake Gyllenhaal as Jack, adding to the ambinguity - it goes by so quickly [maybe someone with one of the Academy screener DVD's could freeze-it and determine it for sure?].

NO, the real tragedy is the internal homophobia of Ennis, for all of the above reasons, who, I believe, would never have been able to live openly with Jack and accept that part of himself given any possible scenario. Which is not to say that there is not some indictment of the acceptance of it in society and family life. Both Annie Proulx' story and the film are stunning in this respect - the subtle but powerful presentation of homophobia is in a multitude of layers showing its prevalence throughout our modern existence:
- Joe Aguirre's obvious disgust;
- Ennis's father's 'instruction' [teach your children well];
- Jack's father's venomous [spitting in the cup like a puff-adder]'hatred' for what his son was [made even more obscene in the story with an additional horrific scene of child abuse from Jack's early years];
- the bartender's "Ever tried calf-roping?"
- Jack's father-in-law's "you want your boy to grow up to be a man, don't you?"
the list goes on.

5] Ennis's guilt over Jack's death? There's nothing overt in the screenplay, in Proulx's story, or in the film, but I go back to the begining of the film and Ennis's discovery of the disembowelled sheep on the mountain-side following his first sexual encounter with Jack and relate it to the end of the film -- and I'll admit that this might be my own 'overanalyis'.
I won't recapitulate the long discussions which have ensued about the symbolism of the sheep. Just let it be said that the way Lee films the sheep carcass in exactly the same diagonal angle and position in the frame as he shoots the desecrated, mutilated body of Earl, the gay 'example' shown to Ennis by his father, they are meant to be linked in both Ennis's and the viewerss mind. The only other time we see human blood in the film [aside from the wounds the boys inflict on each other - the shirts, etc.] is in the flash insert of the supposed 'tire iron' beating which Ennis imagines.
The correspondence of the images reflects Ennis's fear and self-hatred of what the eventual 'end' of a sexually expressed love between two men will be and his feelings of 'shame' [indicated in the screenplay] about the relationship into which he has entered with Jack.
A telling detail is that in the case of the sheep, Ennis tracks down the coyote [or a 'scape-goat' coyote] and mount ITS carcass/hide on the gnarled tree within the sheep herd, possibly as a deterrent/warning or as a display of outrage - showing that he CAN act an an unconscious level to protect, defend, and avenge a helpless animal. I think it's significant that we see the shot of the coyote 'outrage trophy' just before the scene where he finds Jack on the hill-side and declares his acceptance of their relationship with the caveat "It's a one-shot thing we go goin' here." I cannot articulate why, but I feel as if Ennis has, at an unconscious level, shown a 'heroism' in contravening his up-brining by declaring [as much as he ever can] his love for Jack and his shooting of the coyote is associated with his love as a symbolic act of protection.
Ennis is shown to be the strong, silent man who acts - he can shoot the elk, protect his family from the bikers, care for his children. Jack is relatively 'helpless' on the mountain - is unable to kill the coyote with his meagre shooting ability, 'spills the beans' and spends the rest of his life essentially in his wife's family's shadow, though he does show he is the only one in their 'difficult lives' who really understands, accepts and can care for Ennis
When Jack is suddenly 'gone', I can't help but see Ennis wondering if he could have protected Jack and my mind goes back to their first 'pairing' on the mountain.

Did not mean for this post to be as verbose as it has become.



Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - jmmgallagher (Tue Jan 31 2006 16:05:37 )   

Or simply "What I tell you three times is true."

(Really posting so I can find the thread again--thanks all!)


Re: Ennis's guilt and Oedipus--spoilers   
by - keirwood (Tue Jan 31 2006 16:25:29 )   

I loved the commentary here. One point, though: Ennis, despite denying Jack three times at the river, still sent Jack that postcard to get together that November. Since he missed August, he never saw Jack again. Ennis didn't really mean what he said. His inner struggle was surfacing and he knew he could never mate (as in partner) with another man.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - spottedreptile (Tue Jan 31 2006 16:31:05 )   

ie. the screenplay did not intend for the 'victim' to obviously be Jack and I'm still not sure if the 'victim' actually shot in the film is Jake Gyllenhaal as Jack, adding to the ambinguity - it goes by so quickly [maybe someone with one of the Academy screener DVD's could freeze-it and determine it for sure?].
It's Jake for sure in the closeups, when he's upside down in the shot lying on the ground. At the beginning of that scene it looks like a double, but dressed like Jack and with the mustache.


Re: Ennis's guilt and Oedipus--spoilers   
by - robbchadwick (Tue Jan 31 2006 16:44:27 )   

>> NO, the real tragedy is the internal homophobia of Ennis, ... <<

What a wonderful post. Thank you so much for your deep thought and insight. I truly enjoyed every word of it.

Regarding the above quote from your post, I totally agree. Ennis's internal homophobia is the real tragedy of the film. That is why I believe so strongly that Jack's death was an accident. I don't want the tragedy to be shifted to Jack's life (any more than is absolutely necessary since he never realized his dream of a full time relationship with Ennis.) As I see it, to shift the main tragedy to Jack's life & death would be a betrayal to him since he did the best he could with what he had. I think that is all that can be expected from any of us.


Re: Ennis's guilt and Oedipus--spoilers   
by - austendw (Tue Jan 31 2006 16:48:26 )   

UPDATED Wed Feb 1 2006 03:32:03
The screenplay says of Ennis during the telephone scene with Lureen, "He doesn't know which way it was, the tire iron--or a real accident, blood choking down JACK's throat and nobody to turn him over." There is the brief inserted shot of Ennis's imagining of a violent end which convinces a lot of viewers that 'it was the tire iron'.

Hi Casey. This is intriguing, and I think reveals a certain tension between book, writers and director. The screenplay (which I don't have yet, so I depend on quotes like yours above, for which, thanks,) lifts that line straight from Annie Proulx's story, but gives no indication how to show this. And Lee (who really does seem to have preferred the murder theory,) made no attempt to dramatise Ennis's doubt in any way. By showing the inserts of the beating alone, he gave this version far greater impact than Lureen's purely verbal account. The story certainly gaven him an "authorised" opportunity to do redress the balance. Following the line quoted above we read: "Under the wind drone he heard the steel slamming on bone, the hollow clatter of a settling tire rim." So here Ennis imagined Lureen's version as well, but in the film there is neither image or sound of this or any other aspect of the accident story, which inevitably lessens its force in a viewer's mind, encouraging so many people to think that the murder is more probable.

I won't recapitulate the long discussions which have ensued about the symbolism of the sheep. Just let it be said that the way Lee films the sheep carcass in exactly the same diagonal angle and position in the frame as he shoots the desecrated, mutilated body of Earl, the gay 'example' shown to Ennis by his father, they are meant to be linked in both Ennis's and the viewerss mind. The only other time we see human blood in the film [aside from the wounds the boys inflict on each other - the shirts, etc.] is in the flash insert of the supposed 'tire iron' beating which Ennis imagines.

I didn't think the angle of the sheep and Earl were identical to be honest, but that's a minor point and my memory may be faulty. However, you may be interested in this comment that Lee made, discussing a proposed second sequence showing the "murder".
Ang Lee: In the book, it was said a second time, when he spoke to Jack’s father, that it was bashing with a tire iron. But that’s also in his mind. I shot that, but it kills the other scene if I put another flashback there. So I could only do one.

blackfilm.com: In the book, the death is implied?

Ang Lee: Well, the movie is a photorealistic image. I cannot avoid that. Actually I shot a whole lot more, and the metaphors come along with his imagination. I shot a dead body much longer, closer, I shot the dead body transforming into Jack. I cut it together with a dead sheep. I could go on and on. But that’s just so heavy handed. There’s a question about how much is too much. The audience can get numb and stop feeling anything. That’s what I think most people could tolerate. It happens very quickly, but the shocking effect needs to be there. That’s the best I think the movie can do. I told Annie, you can write about brain surgery, but how much of it can you watch. (My emphasis)

(http://www.blackfilm.com/20051202/features/anglee.shtml)
Oops, I've managed to get back to my obsession about Jack's death yet again. Sorry...

Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - robbchadwick (Tue Jan 31 2006 16:49:09 )   

>> It's Jake for sure in the closeups, when he's upside down in the shot lying on the ground. At the beginning of that scene it looks like a double, but dressed like Jack and with the mustache. <<

I believe the beating flash scene shows a younger Jack, if it was Jack. Of course this scene is being envisioned by Ennis, so it certainly makes sense that it was Jack. However, the script only calls for A MAN, as a previous poster has said.


Re: Ennis's guilt and Oedipus--spoilers   
by - robbchadwick (Tue Jan 31 2006 16:59:03 )   

UPDATED Tue Jan 31 2006 18:29:26
>> And Lee (who really does seem to have preferred the murder theory,) made no attempt to dramatise Ennis's doubt in any way. By showing the inserts of the beating alone, he gave this version far greater impact than Lureen's purely verbal account. <<

austendw,

I know we have discussed this before; and I have always agreed with you, mostly due to the posts I've seen here. However, last night I watched the Ang Lee with Charlie Rose video. Mr. Lee seems to say that he feels the story alluded to murder more than his film. This totally surprised me since, like you, I have always considered it to be just the opposite. I think the story & screenplay point strongly to accident. I do recall him talking about a second scene he considered inserting in the film that depicted Ennis envisioning the beating. He said he had planned to insert that in the film while Ennis is talking with Jack's parents. He said that he did not include it because it didn't work. I wonder what he meant by that. Maybe he didn't want to lean too strongly toward the murder theory. I'm going to watch that video again tonight.

Edit / Addition to the this post:

I have just watched the Ang Lee & Heath Ledger on Charlie Rose video again. It's a long one; but the part where Ang talks about the beating scene is in the first ten to twelve minutes. I am going to post the link here in case you or anyone else would like to watch it & comment as to what Ang is really saying. (The posts on these forums and the excerpts on the website you posted seem to leave out some of his meaning.)

http://www.heathledgercentral.com/bbcharlieroseinterview.html


Re: Ennis's guilt and Oedipus--spoilers   
by - west_mont (Tue Jan 31 2006 19:58:55 )   

UPDATED Tue Jan 31 2006 20:04:23
I think Ang did say that it (the murder) is more sure in the short story than in the film. In the film, how jack died was never presented, all we saw was Ennis' imagination. And thus the ambiguity on the cause of Jack's death.
In the story, right after Jack's father mentioned another fellow Jack was seeing, Annie wrote "so now he (Ennis) knew it had been tire iron". I think this is why Ang said it was more sure in the story. This is also why Ang has another flashback planned for the scene at Jack's parents. But Ang said that he loved that scene so much, he did not want to destroy its purity by inserting a violent flashback. As a result, the movie is more ambiguous. And since the movie only shows once how Ennis imagined it, thus "The movie takes Ennis' view" according to Ang.

Personally I think Jack is murdered. During Ennis' phone conversation with Laureen, I got the feeling that Laureen does not even believe the story herself just from the way she said it. I don't think she was lying to Ennis, she was just repeating the story that was fed to her by either the police or her father. She has her doubts and confusion about Jack through the years. When Ennis called and confirmed that Brokeback mountain did exist and they were herding sheep there together two decades ago, Laureen knew then that Ennis, the fishing buddy, was the true love of her husband. Her suspicions through the years has finally been confirmed. At that moment she also believes that Jack was murdered, as does Ennis. The realization of Jack's secret and the cause of his death brings tears to her eyes. The fact that she told Ennis to contact Jack's parents to carry out his wish clearly indicates that she knew who Ennis is. It also shows that after all these years, Laureen still loves Jack.
Well, just my take on the scene.

Dan


The Nature of Jack's End a Moot Point - Ang Lee's Confirmation   
by - CaseyCornelius (Tue Jan 31 2006 21:37:19 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 18:47:17
I don't know about the rest of you, but given that the flash-insert of the 'tire iron' assault makes no attempt to clearly show that it's an actual portrayal of Jack as the victim, Ang Lee did not see it as an essential point in the story.

Must admit that the above post from austendw and the mention of the Charlie Rose interview with Ang Lee [must watch it again!] is fascinating in that he toyed with the idea of another insert into the kitchen discussion with Jack's parents to faithfully match Proulx's story - I can see why it would be pressing the point and why he left it out. I truly believe Lee worked his damndest to make sure that the nature of Jack's death was ambiguous as possible, because that was not the essential homophobia in the story. It comes back to Ennis's self-hatred and the systemic, societal, familial, abusive hatred which was instilled in him primarily by his father, then reinforced by the 'dings' all gay children, youths, and adults experience.

And we should all apologize to Flickfan-3 who was adamant that she/he did not want this to turn into another round-about round-table circular [enough redundant metaphors?] never-ender discussion about Jack's death.

Can we get back to discussing Flickfan-3's original proposed subject:

"What Ennis's guilt would lead him to do--? see above


Desecrations --Earl's Corpse, the Sheep and Ennis's Dread
by - CaseyCornelius (Tue Jan 31 2006 21:46:00 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 18:46:03
austendw:

Thanks so much for the blackfilm link. It's stunning the subtlety which Ang Lee strives for. Everytime I've seen the film I've always equated the disembowelled sheep with the real [Earl] and imagined [Jack] victims of the homophobic hate-crimes which are haunting and paralyzing Ennis's psyche.
A post below in this thread in response to Flickfan-3 contains more of my thoughts and how Ennis's initial response to the 'desecrated' sheep is linked with that of the body of Earl. Interesting that Lee was considering including that link directly but cutting the sheep together with [what I believe to be] Ennis's purely imagined horrific imagning of Jack's demise.

AND YES, now that I think about it clearly, I know you're right about the diagonal position of the sheep not matching with Earl's corpse - you've sharper eyes and memory than mine. But, even if the images are complementary or symmetrical I firmly believe that Ang Lee intends them to be linked in the viewers mind.

Wondering if he'll include the deleted excerpts in the DVD.


Re: Ennis's guilt and Oedipus--spoilers   
by - meryl_88 (Tue Jan 31 2006 22:31:43 )   

Casey wrote: I cannot articulate why, but I feel as if Ennis has, at an unconscious level, shown a 'heroism' in contravening his up-bringing by declaring [as much as he ever can] his love for Jack and his shooting of the coyote is associated with his love as a symbolic act of protection.

I really love this idea.

You said you didn't want to over-emphasize the first of Ennis's "maledictions" too much, but from my second viewing on, it has always given me a chill to hear him say "You'd prob'ly deserve it," regardless of its being said in an affectionate, joking way. It affects me more than even Ennis's threat to kill Jack for straying, since I've never really been able to buy into that, either in the story or the film. I just can't see Ennis being able to hurt Jack like that.

What the real tragedy is---spoiler   
by - dc4947 (Wed Feb 1 2006 00:05:08 )   

UPDATED Wed Feb 1 2006 00:09:56
Thr real tragedy is more complicated than just homophobia. I would like to offer Ennis statement,"I'm stuck with what I got here". Of course he is homophobic, because of how he was raised, but he also has been raised to be polite, honorable, compassionate, and responsible. Examples--Ennis tries to keep his jobs; Ennis says,"You got your wife and baby down in Texas, I got my life in Riverton"; "this isn't her fault"; "I got the girls this weekend, I only get them once a month"; Tells Alma Jr. she can't come stay with him but also says it isnt that he wouldn't want...; "Jack I got to work. You ever hear of child support". Ennis loves his daughters and they love him. The most telling statement is when Ennis tells Jack ,"Maybe you'll convince Alma to let you and Lureen adopt my girls, and then we could all live together". (That way Ennis could have Jack, and his girls. In the end he loses Jack, but has Alma Jr. He decides to not be a sad daddy. Sometimes you can't fix it and you can't stand it. That is the tragedy!


Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - monimm18 (Wed Feb 1 2006 01:58:19 )   

Casey,

I always love reading your threads, and this time I'll put in my two cents.

I think you are right about the three "maledictions". I thought about the first two after my second viewing of the film, but it was only after two more viewings that I realized the third one. For some reason, I couldn't get it into my thick head that Ennis is actually asking Jack to put an end to his torment somehow, when he says "Why don't you... etc." and that, that moment was the one when Jack decided to look elsewhere for happiness, or peace, which would indirectly lead to his tragic fate. In the end, I see the events, from Randall's come on to Jack's death, as one step leading to another.

Like with someone else on this thread, Ennis' "You probably deserve it" gives me chills every time I see that scene, maybe because somehow I consider it as the true bad omen or malediction, like things spoken carelessly by mortals which tempt Fate or upset the gods. It feels like Ennis was tempting Fate by talking lightly about something he once claimed was the core reason why he wouldn't follow his heart and be with Jack, so Fate punished him and took his Jack away.

However, even if you were to consider the first one as simply a jest, then you could say you have all three in growing significance: first - a jest, second - a threat, third - an anguished request for an end. So, again, we could say Fate answered. Only, their bond could not be broken to split them into two separate entities without sacrifice; death was the only thing left to fulfill Ennis' request...Be careful what you wish for...

If I sound like I am placing Jack's death on Ennis' conscience, I wrote this the wrong way and I am sorry. I am merely speculating on the inexorability of their destinies.

You said: I'll link this to something I've stated before about the scene where Ennis reads the returned DECEASED-stamped postcard. Immediately prior to it, a truck the exact color and style which we had last seen Jack driving crosses from left to right in the background in front of Ennis just before he freezes in shock -- as if Jack's spirit is symbolically exiting the story. Jack when driving in his truck - notably in the shot of him heading for Mexico - traverses the screen in that same direction when detaching himself from Ennis, but a truck travelling in the reverse direction is associated with them uniting with each other - eg. going into the mountains for the reunion after the four year hiatus.

This one turned me inside out when I read it. I thought I have exhausted all reasons why watching this film would make me cry again. You proved me wrong.

However, Jack is travelling the same direction as he drives to meet Ennis after the divorce - you can see him passing the Wyoming sign from left to right, so I am not sure the directions always signify the same thing.
I happen to believe that the scene where Ennis finds the shirts, by the manner it is filmed (the camera inside the closet, Ennis looking towards it, as if called by someone) suggests Jack's spirit is still around and leads him to the shirts, so Ennis will know he was his true love - a confirmation he might have needed in such a moment of grief and after hearing about the "ranch neighbor". As Ennis leaves Jack's room, the window remains open, which to me is the moment Jack's spirit is finally leaving. So, maybe, the truck passing was not a symbol of Jack exiting the story, but trying to be close to Ennis in that horrible moment? He was always the one trying to protect and comfort Ennis.

Thank you for your posts, they always lead us to discover something more about this beautiful film.


Moni

"There ain't never enough time, never enough..."


Re: What the real tragedy is---spoiler   
by - austendw (Wed Feb 1 2006 02:06:42 )   

Nicely put, dc. Yes, Ennis is caught between a rock and a hard place. His responsibilities and love for his daughters are real and genuine. The film emphasises that Ennis is a good father who tries to do the best by his kids. And that compromises his relationship with Jack, slowly grinding away and undermining it.

Sometimes you can't fix it and you can't stand it.

Impasse. The paralysing sense of nowhere to go, no way out of the mess - nothing and nowhere - which is the key to Ennis's emotional collapse at his last meeting with Jack.



Jack's Comforting Spirit at Ennis's Shock   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Feb 1 2006 08:55:00 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 18:48:17
Moni:

Terrific thought about the truck representing Jack passing by Ennis as a comforting presence at the moment of shock. Had not even considered that, so thank you.
You're right -- I'd forgotten about the left to right movement of the truck as Jack enters Wyoming after the divorce.
So, all in all, your take on the DECEASED-postcard truck's appearance would appear to be more consistent.

Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - 3of19 (Wed Feb 1 2006 09:34:09 )   

Well, connecting Jack to Christ might be a bit far fetched, but considering the name "Jack" means something along the lines of "God's grace" and how Jack was the first person to actually open Ennis emotional side, it's not completely out of order IMHO.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - austendw (Thu Feb 2 2006 05:26:18 )   

It's not surprising that Ennis projects an image of violent death onto Lureen's rehearsed accident description.

Jeez, southend, I've had very similar ideas myself, though I arrived at that from a different dirction: more from a reading of the story (and in particular a passage that is not dramatised in the film). Here's what I wrote:
In the first instance the narrator calls it an "accident" but then Lureen tells Ennis her story, and we read: "No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron". He thought. Out of the blue. A flash of intuition? A delusion? Who knows? There's certainly no actual evidence, and just a bit later, Ennis isn't so sure any more: "He didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident.."

Until he talks with the father. The father says: "Then this spring he's got another one's goin a come up here with him.... He's goin a split up with his wife and come back here." And then comes what for many is the clincher: "So now he knew it had been the tire iron". What has he learnt to make him so sure? Well, from a third party no less, he has found out at least some of "them things" he didn't know about that could get Jack killed if and when he did. Now I hope this doesn't sound too much like psycho-babble, but it's really as if Ennis has done exactly what he threatened to do. In his imagination, subconsciously, Ennis himself has killed Jack after he has discovered his "other" life. By envisioning this murderous gay-bashing, he has "punished" him for his infidelity, perhaps even for his now confirmed "gayness".

If in his mind the murderous fantasy has been realized, we can only imagine the guilt he might experience. Guilt which may propel Ennis into perpetual mourning.

I hadn't thought of that, but yes. It's a quite horrifying thought.


Re: Ennis's guilt and Oedipus--spoilers   
by - austendw (Thu Feb 2 2006 05:30:52 )   

So sorry, Robb, I somehow forgot to thank you for the link to the Charlie Rose interview. I haven't had time to watch it yet but I intend to. Cheers!


Re: Ennis guilt   
by - Flickfan-3 (Thu Feb 2 2006 08:28:40 )   

naun--I have just followed the thread to its current end to print out all the posts related to my original query about the Ennis/Oedipus guilt combo and saw your ending line If Ennis feels guilt over Jack's death, it will be a complicated kind of guilt
It just cracked me up...so true... Seemingly, there is nothing about this movie that can't be even more complicated by repeated viewings, right?


Re: Come back, Flickfan-3, Come back !!   
by - Flickfan-3 (Thu Feb 2 2006 08:38:43 )   

Maybe if you return and wield some authority you'll be able to torque it back to what you wanted high praise but...LOLx2---I am just an acolyte, a mere "grasshopper" gleaning some wisdom in the fields of thought about Brokeback Mountain
I was very plesantly pleased to see so many other responses on the idea of Ennis's guilt and have printed them. Want to work out cumulative response that will include other posters points as well...


Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - southendmd (Thu Feb 2 2006 09:19:14 )   

austendw: Not necessarily psychobabble.

I think the idea of projection is an important one: if Jack is "queer", that's very threatening for Ennis to deal with, it does break their contract. Ennis is predetermined to believe queer results in violent death, and projects this image on to the ambiguity surrounding the nature of Jack's death. So, it's not that he really knows, it's a defense. But he psychologically kills Jack, perhaps in an attempt to kill this part of himself.

naun: I like your observation that the maledictions are in the passive voice: "...will get you killed", "why don't you (quit)". Many things Ennis does/says relating to Jack are indirect, from behind.


Re: Ennis guilt   
by - Flickfan-3 (Thu Feb 2 2006 20:08:57 )   

nag, nag, nag....I don't think my case will be succinct, but I hope it will be worthy of your respect...


Re: Ennis guilt   
by - naun (Thu Feb 2 2006 20:47:42 )   
   
Seemingly, there is nothing about this movie that can't be even more complicated by repeated viewings, right?

Or: there is nothing about this movie that doesn't make more sense on repeated viewings.


Re: sense and nonsense   
by - Flickfan-3 (Thu Feb 2 2006 21:22:35 )   

UPDATED Thu Feb 2 2006 21:25:40
naun...
yes there is that, too. I don't pretend to be a truly knowledgeable film buff--don't know that much about foreign films/directors, in particular, or technical aspects...but this movie seems to offer so much to unravel and knit up new designs...that we are always creating a tapestry that illuminates Brokeback country
The Great Gatsby, as a novel, offers this always-new readability to me and Jane Austin's works...or Shakespeare's plays...
starting from a short story is probably the best bare bones...there was nothing to winnow out, no dross...because Proulx had already refined it to an almost poetic state...and we should be grateful that MacMurtry was the screenwriter--I am not so crazy about Osanna--I think their latest novel is really weaker than anything he has written as solo artist...but in other hands this could have been a really overblown, camp piece...


Re: sense and nonsense   
by - meryl_88 (Thu Feb 2 2006 21:56:15 )   

Flickfan,

this movie seems to offer so much to unravel and knit up new designs...that we are always creating a tapestry that illuminates Brokeback country

That's exactly what it feels like--unraveling and knitting again. Great analogy.


Re: sense and not nonsense   
by - Flickfan-3 (Thu Feb 2 2006 23:47:40 )   

thanx


Ang Lee's Transfiguration of a Story of 'Thwarted Love'   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Feb 4 2006 09:34:05 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 18:49:45
Flickfan-3:
The other works which you mention having an always-new readability are ones that consciously invoke a mythic base or attempt to create [in the case of Gatsby] a 'new' one. The rub is that the greatest literature always presents compelling narratives that seem like new stories, precisely because they are so universal. Larry McMurtry has stated that he was shocked/surprised to read Proulx's story and was attracted to it because it told a new story about the contemporary West which he had never even considered, one which had been staring him in the face all the time. What better evidence for the poetic universality of Annie Proulx's vision.
For in reality, her vision of a thoroughly thwarted love between two tragic characters has been with us since the begining of literature and within historical characters made mythic, whether male-male or female-male -- Achilles and Patroclus [Classical mythology and Shakespeare], David and Jonathan [Biblical], Alexander and Hephaiston [historical/mythic], Dante and Beatrice, Heloise and Abelard [Medieval mythic], --- to mention only a meagre few.

Ang Lee as an outsider to the culture was the ideal person to direct the film, with his filmic vocabulary derived from the great European directors with their experience of and closer contact with mythic ease - visual aspects of Antonioni, Dreyer, Bergman among others all register in Brokeback. And the imagery is always used to create the simplest expression of the material, to my mind, without ever [and here is the miracle of the film] 'telling us' what to feel as so many conventional North American films do.
Pace McMurtry, Proulx, and Ossana, Lee has transfigured all of their 'words' into visual poetry, invoking the austere and universal symbols which you and others have been pointing out on this board.
And he throws down the gauntlet and the challenge to the viewer in the first scene. I can't think of another recent non-European film which has the daring to begin with 7-8 minutes of silence save the sound of the wind, and yet convey so much through pure imagery and direction of the actors. Truly, as the actors and other critics have said, Lee is supreme in the 'language' of silence.


Re: the mythic quality of Brokeback   
by - Flickfan-3 (Sat Feb 4 2006 09:56:05 )   

UPDATED Sun Feb 19 2006 08:30:24
Casey
yes--Lee is not afraid to employ the natural rhythms of life by using silence to lure us into his scenes...his eerie beginning creates almost a subliminal, hypnotic spell that effortlessly floats the viewer on a journey into distant, unknown lands, into a mystic/mythic consciousness...compare that with Proulx's beginning totally rooted in the reality of Ennis's life after Jack with all the minutia of dispair...beginning with that scene would have been so prejudicial and such a barrier to overcome that I think most viewers would have been soured on the movie from then on...

remember the legends on ancient maps...where cartographers enscribed Here be monsters at the boundries of their known world....that is where Lee and his compatriots lead us -- into uncharted territory, not of the West, or a secret section of society, but into our own dark hearts, like Conrad and all great artists....and if we share the catharis offered during that journey we come out immutable changed and better for the experience...

I really am going to get back to the idea of Ennis' guilt and its role in Brokeback's overall significance...it is just a very complicated topic and I want to nail it the first time...

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Proulx's Wormhole and the Limits of our Emotional Experience   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Feb 6 2006 20:17:46 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 19:25:16
Flickfan:
Your bringing up the subject of cartography as a metaphor for psychological discovery reminded me that in an NPR interview Annie Proulx remarked that she thought of Brokeback as a 'wormhole' in the time-space continuum and that Jack and Ennis had entered into a new realm from their experiences there. They had somehow come out the other side of a psychological universe and were never the same. I love her image, for Ennis, especially, seems to be destined to spend the rest of his life trying to crawl back through that worm-hole.
Neither Jack nor Ennis have the words or the where-with-all to try and find a place in the new part of the universe in which they find themselves - no vocabulary, no bearings, no map.


Brokeback a Story Waiting to be Told - Proulx and McMurtry   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Feb 9 2006 13:30:27 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 18:51:21
flickfan-3:

My wormhole comment really didn't take into account and respond to your delicious original thought - ie. the monsters at the outer edges of our existence and the newly minted themes, topics, and tolerance for the unimagined part s of our existence which Brokeback [both the film and the story] ask modern society to accept.
When describing the film to friends and acquaintances -it often feels like proseltysing - I keep using the phrase, "a story that's never been told before". And to me and others who have experienced it, Brokeback, feels unique - a testament to Proulx and Lee's imagery and imagination and taking us on the uncharted seas to glimpse a new world. My only prayer is that it will not only reveal its moral and archetypal riches to the 'converted', but to heavy and hardened hearts.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - deedee120 (Thu Feb 9 2006 13:52:44 )   

I'm surprised no one noticed that the shirts were "in the closet".

Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - aj-208 (Thu Feb 9 2006 16:20:18 )   

UPDATED Wed Feb 22 2006 21:27:30
I see Ennis as an orphaned, grieving and armored lost boy. When he meets Jack his identity hasn't yet formed and his ego conflicts with his new feelings.

People say he was responsible. I feel he was just going through the motions, just wanting to 'do the right thing' most of the time. Half-hearted. He had no self-acceptance and therefore a weakened sense of responsibility. Waivering convictions. Many parentless children feel adrift at sea. ( Del Mar)

Theres a real duality to Ennis. One day he'll be loving toward his children and another time he'll walk out for the weekend to go 'play'. Does he ever bring home fish for them? One day he's present, having a Thanksgiving dinner and the next time he see's them will be because "he missed last month". And why didn't he want to feed the girls dinner so Alma could go work?
Ennis never takes responsibility for his actions and behaviors instead he blames others in his life. "You made me like this" "Once burned".
He doesn't even care to consider a steady job Alma finds for him at the electric company. Stable home life and achievements simply elude him.

```````````````````````````````````````````````

I find it interesting that in the end he moves to the 'outskirts of town' like Earl and his partner did. He is becoming whole, and is ready now to be emotionally available to his daughter.

````````````````````````````````````````````````````


AJ


Re: the shirts-- SPOILERS   
by - Flickfan-3 (Fri Feb 10 2006 04:50:28 )   

we/they did---on different threads

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Re: there be monsters   
by - Flickfan-3 (Fri Feb 10 2006 05:33:29 )   

UPDATED Fri Feb 10 2006 05:35:39
thanks for the compliment, Casey...any time you say delicious, original thought.. it's like finding forgotten money ...I do think it is ironic that the Kevin Kline film In & Out covered the outing of a small-town English teacher with humor and insight, had a homosexual kiss/relationship between two respected actors, one of which was decidedly hunk material for many years, and yet did not bring out this level of anti-gay hysteria...or maybe I just wasn't as aware of it...In & Out was supposed to clear the air for future films about gay relationships...guess people don't take comedy's messages as seriouly as drama's--no joke intended...

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Re: Lee's vision   
by - Flickfan-3 (Fri Feb 10 2006 06:19:39 )   

Casey, not to disagree with most of your major points -- I make no claim to have your viewing history or knowledge of film greats but others who do have certainly shown their respect for your insights...and I agree with your comment about Lee's use of silence..but Capote also used that to great strength or weakness depending on whether you fell asleep or into the movie's reality (which I did).
But one comment you made about Lee is a different judgement or interpretation than mine...you said ...And the imagery is always used to create the simplest expression of the material, to my mind, without ever [and here is the miracle of the film] 'telling us' what to feel as so many conventional North American films do...

I can't subscribe as wholeheartedly in what you feel is Lee's ability and style of presenting his film w/o 'telling us' what to feel vs. apparently a more obvious or heavyhanded approach of most American directors. In my mind, a director's film ultimately represents a director's vision. Everything in that film is calculated to create a focused reality which the director wants/needs the audience to see and share...there is nothing in any of Ang Lee's films that is left to chance because there is obviously a determined effort to create a film that operates on more than just one level---symbolism, visual metaphor, mythical allusions, actors' characterizations, set design, music...all the minutia large and small that evolve into a movie's closed environment and final reality ensure that we/his audience enter that reel world...

If the audience truly enter the life of the film, then Lee or any director hasn't necessarily "told us" what to feel...but he has certainly compelled/seduced us (in a successful effort) so that we are convinced of the reality of his world of those moments and even afterwards, as our time on these threads reliving the lives of Jack and Ennis prove. And perhaps that is your point: that Lee is tremendously more subtle and imaginative in how he achieves that end and respects the intelligence of his audience so that he uses nuances in place of hammerblows to shape their perceptions.

I just think that convincing us of the reality of his vision, overriding to a certain extent the realities of our known world, inner and external, creates at least a voluntary symbotic relationsip...a more subtle, polite method of "telling" us what to feel. He wants us to see Jack and Ennis in a sympathetic light but with flaws inherant in their characters--and we do. He wants us to see the poverty of their lives--monetary and emotional--and we do. He asks us to place their world in juxtaposition to that of myth, and discerning viewers do. Less discerning viewers are moved without actually knowing why. He wants us to judge our behavior and attitude regarding the subject of homosexuality/homophobia, and many, many viewers do...

He is not ordering us, but he very successfully beguils us into those thoughts. Most people leave the theater having experienced a catharis of heart and mind which Ang Lee desired, designed, and delights in...I would think.


...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Re: Lee's vision   
by - naun (Sat Feb 11 2006 05:45:03 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 11 2006 05:59:19
And perhaps that is your point: that Lee is tremendously more subtle and imaginative in how he achieves that end and respects the intelligence of his audience so that he uses nuances in place of hammerblows to shape their perceptions.

Great post and a fascinating discussion.

In a recent interview Lee said, praising a scene from Capote, that he liked to make audiences do some of the work, and when a film was quiet that was when they would be working the hardest. (I don't remember his exact words but that was the gist of it.)

That statement confirmed something I've always felt about Lee's work. Rather than telegraph the characters' thoughts with dialogue, he tends to put the character in a setting and encourage us to put ourselves in their shoes. He doesn't so much want us to get a message as to empathise, to reflect, and to care.

Think of Alma waiting up with her cup of coffee, the latter placed in the frame just where we will notice it. Without telling us as much, Lee has hinted to us that she may have been up most of the night. We also notice that she has barely touched her coffee.

Body language is as important in Lee's films as speech or facial expression. There's a thread on this board about the cowboy hats, and in many ways they --like the bonnets in Sense and Sensibility -- are a great prop for a director like Lee, allowing him to accentuate posture and the movement and tilt of the head without giving away too much facial expression. There's a wonderful shot in Sense and Sensibility where we see Colonel Brandon reading to Marianne after her fever breaks, and she has her head turned away from the camera with her face obscured by the bonnet she is wearing. The fact that we cannot see her face prolongs the suspense about her relationship with Brandon, but at the same time her uncharacteristic stillness tells us that something has changed in her.

Or think of the scene in Brokeback where Jack is introduced to Alma. He keeps his hat on (you would expect to take it off) and for much of the scene he has his head tilted down so all you can see is the top of his hat. It is not like Jack to look down and avert his gaze, but of course in this situation you understand why he does.

These two scenes illustrate something else about the way Lee works with character. He expects us to read each situation in the light of what we already know about the characters involved. It would not be remarkable for Marianne's sister Elinor to sit still, or for Ennis to look down and hide his face under the brim of his hat, but it is remarkable for Marianne and Jack to do those things, and the fact that those details register with us as viewers helps to explain the emotional impact of those scenes.

Re: Lee's vision   
by - NewHorizons37 (Sat Feb 11 2006 07:27:26 )   

In a recent interview Lee said, praising a scene from Capote, that he liked to make audiences do some of the work, and when a film was quiet that was when they would be working the hardest. (I don't remember his exact words but that was the gist of it.)

In the Oscar roundtable in Newsweek with several directors, Steven Spielberg commented that to him, there was a real similarity in tone between BBM and Capote. "Both films cast a spell on the audience, because you don't rush your scenes."

Ang Lee replied: "If the movie is quiet I generally feel the audience is busy. That's when they are working. One of the most powerful moments in "Capote" is toward the end, when Capote's lying on the bed. He's doing nothing, and we do everything for him."

Re: Lee's vision   
by - Flickfan-3 (Sat Feb 11 2006 08:05:35 )   

naun--you wrote ...We also notice that she has barely touched her coffee... That coffee is as cold as the ashes of their marriage...
and He expects us to read each situation in the light of what we already know about the characters involved. It would not be remarkable for Marianne's sister Elinor to sit still, or for Ennis to look down and hide his face under the brim of his hat, but it is remarkable for Marianne and Jack to do those things, and the fact that those details register with us as viewers helps to explain the emotional impact of those scenes.
You can't just watch an Ang Lee film--you have to experience it--which is a very subtle distinction in word choice but not in the reality of the moment---to experience something is to synthesize and be changed by it...and I am coming to see that he expects audiences to bring all of our senses and sensibilities to bear when we experience his films....to bring our best game ...makes me want to rent The Ice Storm and his other films to see the same complexities that Brokeback offers....
His kind of movie fare is not for the faint of heart...

can't understand what happened with The Hulk. Based on prior movies and his skill, Lee should have been able to make something out of that story or was it just a waste of several talents--Eric Bana for one--I did not see it, only have heard about it.


"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Re: Lee's vision--strength of silence   
by - Flickfan-3 (Sat Feb 11 2006 08:16:57 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 11 2006 08:18:05
NewHorizons--thanks for that quote and joining the discussion--could you reference the web link or source for that interview?
When Lee says: "If the movie is quiet I generally feel the audience is busy. That's when they are working. One of the most powerful moments in "Capote" is toward the end, when Capote's lying on the bed. He's doing nothing, and we do everything for him..."

I would disagree with he's doing nothing ...externally he may be in pause mode, but internally he is moving a mile a minute and if we are perceptive viewers we are going round and round in that cage with his conscience...the same with the end of the movie...the death scene...



"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Re: Lee's vision--strength of silence   
by - NewHorizons37 (Sat Feb 11 2006 10:20:23 )   

Flickfan, I got it out of my Newsweek (Feb 6th issue) but it is on msnbc

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11077661/site/newsweek/

I think what Lee means when he says "we do everything for him" is: it comes across to the viewer that Capote is going a mile a minute internally with his conscience. But how does it come across, when Capote is physically doing nothing? Because we, the audience, do the work of thinking about what we are seeing and have seen, to bring that across to us.

A lesser movie would have Capote say something to someone else to let the viewer know what is going on with him. But the director trusted the audience to understand, just like Lee trusts us with his movie.


Re: Lee's vision--strength of silence   
by - Flickfan-3 (Sat Feb 11 2006 10:34:52 )   

NewHorizons--thanks for the link---
I agree with what you are saying about how the audience engages in a subliminal partnership with the actors and director to process multiple layers of context--but you must admit that there are probably some people who go to a film like Capote and are bored---because they don't invest the intellectual capital to reap any benefit...

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Re: Lee's vision   
by - houstonangel88 (Sat Feb 11 2006 12:50:13 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 11 2006 12:52:07
Flickfan-3 , I suggest you to rent The Hulk DVD and see for yourself. I don't understand why everybody kept on saying it was a failure. He gave a comic hero story the kind of complexity that general audiences of the action hero movies (such as Spiderman, Superman, and Batman..etc) can not absorb or understand. It was not Ang Lee's fault. He tried to give more than a mere action movie. I guess it was a failed attempt to reach out to that particular audience segment; If you are looking for action and excitements, you would certainly feel that movie a bit on the "dark" side.


Re: Ennis's guilt and Oedipus--spoilers   
by - MyEnnis (Sat Feb 11 2006 13:50:34 )   

hi. I think you're right.


Re: Lee's vision   
by - Flickfan-3 (Sat Feb 11 2006 17:05:35 )   

yes---that is fair---and I think some people only see what they expect to see--preconceived opinions run rampant---think some of the Batman movies have that type of dark soul...and I must admit, I was more affected by King Kong than I anticipated--not that it was great movie--just better than I thought it would be...

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."

Jack's Complete Acceptance of Ennis   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Feb 13 2006 11:04:46 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 18:52:34
naun:

I must confess that I've never been to see a film 'live' more than 5 times before. Last night I saw Brokeback for the ninth time and am just begining to feel as if I have some idea of the mastery Ang Lee displays in this film..

RE: your talking about subtle character touches. A wonderful moment I'd missed before is in the final Lake Scene morning conversation between Ennis and Jack. It's obvious they are uneasy about having to leave each other's company again, but something in Jack's attitude to Ennis makes me realize that Jack is totally aware that Ennis has been keeping something from him all week - the info that he won't be able to join him in August. It's so subtle, but Jack waits patiently for Ennis to say something after having loaded the equipment in his truck [noticed that he takes the shotgun in its holster and places it in his cab - a visual link to his handling of the shotguns on Brokeback] and makes some phatic small talk, trying to give Ennis some space and coax the courage out of Ennis to declare what Jack sees is difficult for him to say.
In so much of this film I am rarely aware that the characters are 'acting' and this is one of the supreme moments. So little is said or displayed, but so much is conveyed.


Re: Lee's vision   
by - EnnisLovesJack (Mon Feb 13 2006 11:20:50 )   

Damn, boy! You are one perceptive viewer, sensitive to the finest, subtlest details. Are you a film scholar? Or just very attuned and analyticial? I really enjoy your posts: the new things they bring to light, the old things they make me (re)consider. Thanks for sharing!

"Redlined it all the way, couldn't get here fast enough."

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - stitchbuffymoulinfan (Tue Feb 14 2006 20:25:42 )   

Casey, I've said this before and I will say it again: you are brilliant.

What you said about a truck passing by, and what it must symbolize, gives me the chills. That is just... Hell, I can't even put this into words.

Thank you so much.

www.jlodown.com
www.petitionspot.com/petitions/jlodown


So Much Humanity - So Few Words   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Feb 15 2006 12:50:29 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 18:55:36
stitchbuffymoulinfan:

RE: 'Hell, I can't even put this into words.'

Thus, the reason the film is so incredible as well. It puts so little into words.
I'm still astounded at the opening which has the least word count in its first hour than thousands of recent films.



Jack's Ethereal and Ministering Caresses - a Model for Ennis   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Feb 16 2006 14:10:27 )   

UPDATED Fri Mar 10 2006 23:30:53
naun:

I'm always impressed by your astute visual acumen and sensitivity to the subtlest of details, AND it's a delight to see another post from you after the great discussions we've had on other threads.
I'll posit one of my favorite subtle visual motifs and I know others have noticed this, so I can't claim any originality of thought, merely a sharing. It's the loving caress which Ennis gives Jenny at the Thansgiving dinner, so beautifully acted and filmed. And it strikes me that this is one of the few tendernesses which Ennis displays. And where did he learn it? From Jack of course - there's an inchoate version of it as Jack, wanting to give Ennis a loving caress, combines it with a feigned gesture of wiping the caked blood off of Ennis's face following the bear attack. A later second occurence is Jack caressing Ennis's face with the exact same gesture in the night-time colloquy beside the fiver following the motel scene, after Ennis's line, "Ain't no reigns on this one.", Jack bringing comfort to Ennis upon sensing his bruised, wounded spirit. It's Jack who is the Loki, the trickster, exuberant character who is always demonstrating, initiating emotional connection and the fact that Ang Lee can show Ennis learning from Jack in this subtle way is yet another one of the many beautiful, ethereal, fragile details.


Jack, the Good Shepherd - a Visual Allusion to Renaissance Art   
by - CaseyCornelius (Fri Feb 17 2006 06:56:59 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 18:41:00
Flickfan-3:

I'm going to renegotiate something in a post I sent you.
I had originally maintained, somewhat 'protesting too much', that I didn't see [or wish to see, out of a fear of it being a cliche] overt Christian symbolism in the film.
However, after a recent ninth viewing, the obvious shepherding images linked with Biblical symbolism came flooding off the screen watching the 'First Act' on the mountain. One shot in particular, that of Jack hoisting a lamb on his shoulders to cross the river [the river Jordan?], knocked me out as one of the most common, emblematic images from Renaissance paintings and sculpture. Don't know how I could have been so much in denial.


Re: Christian symbolism   
by - Flickfan-3 (Fri Feb 17 2006 07:23:47 )   

Yes, I noticed that imagery from the first viewing, and I had my fifth yesterday.
I don't think you can ignore what are obviously specific Christian symbols--there is definitely strong Garden of Eden metaphor with Jack and Ennis on the mountain, the apple of knowledge allusion, shepherd and sheep, and the image of Jack caretaking the lamb across the stream and later pulling thorn from its pad reinforces his caretaker-of-Ennis mode...But Ennis carries the lamb in the bag and shoots the coyote preying on the flock. He does not want to kill a sheep for food; in fact, he tells Jack they are supposed to protect the sheep, so there is great irony in that since Ennis does not protect Jack from physical harm or even from being hurt by Ennis's refusal to give him what he wants in a relationship...if anything Ennis is more like a sheep in that he wants to blend in with the flock to escape notice and certainly does not go against his father's early imprinting of homophobia...
Don't you think that any visible Christian allegory device just means that Lee took what was in the story and expanded its symbolic meaning for whatever value system is applicable---just as you and others mentioned the full moon's aspect/symbolism in Chinese art, and the use of significant numbers in their lives that apply to numerology, and colors.

I guess I mean that we should not over-emphasize any images that are more Christian than Classical or Asian literature ...that just because blue is the color associated with the Virgin Mary does not mean Lee wanted us to see Jack as divine...

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Re: shotguns and other things   
by - Flickfan-3 (Fri Feb 17 2006 08:33:31 )   

two notes about your comments earlier to naun:
It's so subtle, but Jack waits patiently for Ennis to say something after having loaded the equipment in his truck [noticed that he takes the shotgun in its holster and places it in his cab - a visual link to his handling of the shotguns on Brokeback]---no shotguns on Brokeback--just a 30/30 rifle...

and don't you think Jack was waiting for Ennis to make some loving comment about how much he valued his relationship with Jack, that he was sorry he wasn't able to make the commitment that Jack wanted...I don't think we ever see Ennis say he is sorry at any time except the first reunion when he says he thought Jack had not forgiven him for that punch leading to the fistfight their last day together on Brokeback...I thought Jack was totally unprepared for what Ennis did say---after all, it was his unguarded response that led to their disasterously serious argument...and I think Jack's decision to "quit" him...as Jack's father backs up in the Lightening Flats' scene...

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


They'd never got much farther than that. Let be. Let be.   
by - CaseyCornelius (Fri Feb 17 2006 08:46:41 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 18:54:04
Flickfan-3:

I'm from Canada, have relunctantly handled a shotgun only once in my life at the age of eight, and obviously know nothing about firearms. Thanks for your correction - I don't even know how a 30/30 would differ from a shotgun and appreciate your accuracy - really I do. [Incidentally, anyone else, don't bother to post here and inform me what the difference IS between the two - don't really care.]

RE: your second point. I think that Jack's body language DOES indicate that he's expecting some lame excuse from Ennis which he get; it's just that all of the unsaid things over the years explode at that point.

I can't tell how much I'd prefer to believe that what you say about Jack waiting for Ennis to say how much he values his friendship is true. But, my take is that Jack gave up on expecting to get that from Ennis years before that scene. Jack still loves Ennis with all of his heart and it's that love which fuels the rest of Jack's life, evem though he knows that, in Proulx's touching words from the story's flashback, "they'd never got much farther than that. Let be. Let be." I've memorized the entire flashback passage from the story and tears well up in my eyes at the "Let be Let be" because I realize how great Jack's love for Ennis was, that he could accept no acknowledgement from him and still love him into his grave and as a restless spirit beyond. Jack's love will haunt Ennis into HIS grave.


Re: Let be...let be   
by - Flickfan-3 (Fri Feb 17 2006 14:41:06 )   

Casey, when you wrote
tears well up in my eyes at the "Let be Let be" because I realize how great Jack's love for Ennis was, that he could accept no acknowledgement from him and still love him into his grave two things came to mind---the wonderful Beatles' "Let it Be" and the Christian symbolism that you spoke of regarding the shepherd/flock and Jack====that acceptance and love which really asks for nothing is very similar to Christ's love for mankind--I know Jack is not a Christ figure ultimately, but there is a certain willingness to take abuse from the one he loves that elevates his love to more than just a sexual lust or the single-minded fixation of Ennis's---until Ennis realizes what Jack's love was all about at Lightening Flats...then I think he realizes the depth of Jack's love...

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Jack as representative of several loves   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Feb 18 2006 09:08:26 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 09:14:42
Flickfan-3:
Beautiful thought !! Your post has impelled me to take a cue from C.S. Lewis's 'The Four Loves'. Jack is representative of all four types of love in Ennis's life, and one can see their relationship as a continuing development through the stages of and a mingling of each of Storge-Affection, Amicitia-Friendship, Eros-Sexual love, and Caritas-Charity or spiritual, self-sacrificing love. I'm reminded that it is Jack who, in addition to the abuse he takes from Ennis, also continually protects the hurt spirit of Ennis and shields him from derision. One pertinent example is the way Jack absorbs the barbed insults of Aguirre when he goes back seeking out both Ennis and another summer of employment with him, but never lets Ennis know of the exchange.
It is Ennis who declares his fears about being discovered or 'outed' without ever suffering any of it [save with Alma], but Jack the one who is there on the 'front-lines'.


Re: the hands on cheek touches   
by - Flickfan-3 (Sat Feb 18 2006 09:44:06 )   

Casey, your remark to naun I caught when I read your post to me about Lewis's writing.
...It's the loving caress which Ennis gives Jenny at the Thansgiving dinner, so beautifully acted and filmed. And it strikes me that this is one of the few tendernesses which Ennis displays. And where did he learn it? From Jack of course -

I wanted to repeat what I posted on another thread about Jack's character regarding this same type of caress...think it has some relativity...

just thought of something else connected with that lovey touch on the cheek--remember the sound track song "Wings"
Makes me think that the brush of the guys' hands either on each other's cheeks or Ennis's on Jenny's is like that--the brush of an angel's wing--a connection from a better world that burnishes love and makes it brighter.

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Wrestling - Ennis and Jack; Jacob and the Angel   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Feb 18 2006 17:58:46 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 18:06:13
Flickfan-3:

Another thought which I've had and which you might appreciate as I know you've been party to some of the discussions on other threads re: 'Jack as a Ministering Angel' is a bit of a stretch, but it hasn't stopped me before.

I keep seeing in Ennis's and Jack's wrestling on Brokeback some resonance with the Biblical incident of Jacob wrestling with the Angel [termed 'a Man' in Genesis, but often described thought to be what we think of as an Angel].
Jack lasooing [sp?] of Ennis strikes me as an overt act of seizing him in a way, and we can read it as Jack trying to 'capture' him emotionally. As Ennis joins in the sport, we know he must be wanting to receive some ministration from Jack as well; Jacob refuses to let the Angel go until it blesses himm
In the process as Ennis struggles to 'free himself' they wound each other, though not as seriously as the thigh wound which Jacob receives. The wounding physically marks both of them, sealing the significance of their time on Brokeback, as it comes to an end, that they have both been irrevocably changed.
It takes them four years to fully realize the change - 'Brokeback got us good' - until they can attempt to deal with it at their reunion -'What're we gonna do now?'.


Re: Ennis's Maledictions -- SPOILERS   
by - the_snake152 (Sat Feb 18 2006 18:36:12 )   

Very insightful, will have to think about this one.


Re: Jack as representative of several loves   
by - mlewisusc (Sat Feb 18 2006 19:00:46 )   

In the story, I took Jack's failure to mention Aguirre's further comments not so much as protective to Ennis, but as protective to Jack's own self - interest, e.g., Jack does not want to further engage Ennis's fears of their relationship and potentially lose Ennis.

But upon reflection after reading your post, I see that there was no reason to hide any more of the exchange from Ennis if my thought is correct - the "damage" as it were, would already have been done.

Since this omission by Jack comes along with his other lies in the motel (riding more than bulls, not rolling his own), I always saw it in a negative light. One could also argue that Jack did not want to shame himself in front of Ennis regarding Aguirre's failure to rehire him, and in fact makes the choice sound like his (Jack's) and not Aguirre's.

After re-reading the exchange, I'm not sure I see much difference between telling Ennis what he told him ("You boys found a way to make the time pass up there, didn't you") vs. what Jack didn't relate to Ennis (the "stem the rose" comment). Certainly one is more inferential, and the other is more direct, but either one would make Film Ennis at least jumpy and paranoid. (There I go mixing them up again, Film Ennis is not really at issue here).

However, Jack does tell Ennis that "I give him a look" after the "time pass" comment, and this to me indicates that the exchange, from Jack's POV, has as one of its purposes bolstering Jack's bravado image to Ennis. Trouble with this thought of mine - the "bravado image" seems more a part of the film than the story.

I guess I'm looking for the "protection of Ennis" aspect here and not quite seeing it.

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."


Thigh wounds   
by - mlewisusc (Sat Feb 18 2006 19:07:54 )   

I had forgotten about Jacob's thigh wound. An interesting addition to the location of the wound is the fact that in the ancient near east (biblical times), vows and covenants were often sworn to by the party doing the swearing placing his hand on the inner thight (above the knee but not on the genitals) of the party being sworn to, and then speaking the vow or covenant.

Hey, if we're stretching, let's take it as far as it will stretch, right? I can't imagine that the author/filmmakers had this in mind . . .

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."


Re: Thigh wounds   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Feb 18 2006 19:15:17 )   

mlewisusc:

Hell, in other threads we've stretched the allusions to include Plato's 'Symposium', the swearing of ancient Bruderschafts, D. H.Lawrence's 'Women in Love', Chinese numerology and symbolism, Renaissance art works, Michelangelo Antonioni.
The extension to include some far-reaching resonances with Biblical symbolism can't hurt.
I see it as all of us having been 'wounded' or touched by this film, and we attempting to bring the rest of our intellectual powers to aid in the bolstering of our emotional fragility and wonder.


Re: Thigh wounds, more (obvious?) biblical symbolism   
by - mlewisusc (Sat Feb 18 2006 19:33:03 )   

Yes, the film and the story just won't get off my mind. The image of picking at a scab came to me, but that's too crass. A sweet wound? Ah, another biblical reference, from Proverbs: "Faithful are the wounds of a friend."

Your post above made me think of some other (rare) threads where the Jack - as -Chirst figure was explored, and I had to look up the following passage from Isaiah:

Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Which is quoted by Peter in the NT book of I Peter.

I can't get this so much out of the story, where it seems that Ennis doesn't really grow or change, but just sufferes his loss at the end - stoically standing the grief and the joy of his dreams, all he has left of Jack beside the shrine. In the film, however, many of us, I believe you Casey as well, have argued that the dialog, acting and symbols show us an Ennis who has grown and changed. If that is the case, then Jack's death was the sacrificial event which, when coupled with his "selfless" love for Ennis (from the thread above, not SURE I agree, but it fits this ramble), "saves" Ennis and makes him better than he was before Jack was in his life and then left it - much as Christ comes into the lives of the people of Judea, teaches them what it looks like to love God and one another, and then departs in a painful death which is a sacrifice for them . . .

I can't actually believe this hasn't been posted and discussed before, apologize if redundant.

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."