Author Topic: The Exclusivity Pact between Jack and Ennis --- by clancypants  (Read 8936 times)

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The Exclusivity Pact between Jack and Ennis --- by clancypants --- 1 of 3

by - clancypants (Fri May 5 2006 08:56:39 )

UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 09:06:25

Jack and Ennis establish an exclusivity pact in their queer conversation on the mountain after the first tent scene. But it’s not based on love – me for you and you for me; it’s based on Ennis’ fear of himself.

Throughout the movie, Ennis will not admit to himself or to Jack that there's love involved in their relationship. He displays it, but he won't admit it. To Ennis, it's "this thing" that "grabs hold of us." Throughout the movie Ennis controls and limits the relationship based on his fears. Jack's willing to operate within Ennis' bounds so as to still have Ennis -- because Jack, all along, realizes and admits to himself that he loves Ennis. Jack displays his love to Ennis, but even Jack will not come right out and admit this to Ennis, again, because of Ennis' fears.

During their conversation in question, Ennis sets up this whole fear/control thread that runs throughout the entire film. He says, "This is a one-shot thing we goin' on here." Ennis is setting up a limitation on their relationship. Regardless whether he meant just the first tent scene, or their time on the mountain, doesn't really matter for purposes of this discussion. It's a way for Ennis to be in control and to be the one who sets the limitations.

Jack understands this as a fear-based remark, as a distance-creating remark, as a limitation-setting remark. Note Jack's slight nod of agreement, coupled with a look of disappointment. And note the mood-setting music that starts just at this moment. It's a sad few notes that give us a clue that what Jack just heard is not exactly what he was hoping for, and it also says that Ennis' words are not exactly affirming. Jack says, "It's nobody's business but ours." Here, Jack is giving affirmation to Ennis' comment -- because he knows it's Ennis' fears talking -- but Jack is also cracking the door open for Ennis to walk through if he chooses. Jack is offering a way for Ennis to view the situation that allows Ennis to reduce his fear level a bit. Remember, Ennis is always afraid of people finding out. Jack's comment reassures Ennis that this is just between Jack and Ennis.

Then the queer comments. Ennis speaks his queer comment, again, out of fear, distancing, limiting. He's both afraid to appear "not a real man" to Jack, and Ennis is limiting the relationship again. By saying "You know I ain't queer," Ennis is stating that there's no love involved here -- because love between two men would be wrong. He's saying there's no love, and he'll go on believing that (or wanting to believe that) throughout the entire film until Cassie tells Ennis "Girls don't fall in love with fun" and Ennis then realizes that, to Jack, their 20-year relationship had been about love.

Jack says he isn't queer either. Again, to alleviate some of Ennis' fears and to open that door a bit further. Jack understands that if Ennis sees the two of them as being on the same page about this, then they can go ahead with it. Ennis needs them to be on the same page. Which is why throughout the film, Ennis never calls it love and Jack doesn’t push the issue -- until the final lake scene where Jack doesn’t say it in so many words, but Ennis gets the picture. This is where Ennis asks Jack whether he'd had a better idea and Jack says "I did once." Jack is not talking about relieving his sexual frustrations by going to Mexico, he's talking about his idea that the two of them could have gotten a ranch together -- this is the point that Jack immediately comes back to after Ennis blows up at Jack about Mexico. Ennis knows that it's not about Mexico. He uses that as a way of putting Jack on the defensive and turning the conversation into an argument that he can deal with. Ennis tells Jack that he knows what Mexico has for boys like Jack... boys who fall in love with other boys. Ennis isn’t jealous of any other guy that Jack may have been with, Ennis is pissed off to learn that Jack has been with any other guy because that means this whole relationship of theirs wasn’t just a "thing" that "grabs hold of us," it's about two men loving each other.

Which goes back to Ennis "one-shot" comment. While this comment was controlling and limiting, it had a far deeper meaning. Exclusivity. Ennis did not mean "we have an exclusive relationship because we love each other so much." Ennis means that they will have an exclusive relationship, because "we're not really queers." If either of them goes for another guy, for whatever reason, then that will break the pact that they make up on the mountain. And the pact is, we’re not two guys in love, we’re not queers. The pact is a lie and Jack is willing to live with it for twenty years because Jack knows Ennis cannot handle the truth of the situation. This is how Jack shows his love for Ennis.

The conversation on the mountain after the first tent scene sets up an exclusivity pact between Jack and Ennis. Jack knows it’s based on love. Ennis avoids that truth and lies to both himself and to Jack by believing (or wanting to believe) that the exclusivity pact is about two boys who have a thing that grabs hold of them, a thing they can’t fix. This is Ennis' way of allowing the relationship to continue in terms that Ennis can live with – until he’s confronted by the truth in the final lake scene, reaffirmed by Cassie in the bus depot, reaffirmed by Ennis sending the final postcard to Jack, reaffirmed by finding the shirts, and finally, reaffirmed and confirmed by Ennis when he says, “Jack, I swear.”




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 09:09:09 )


Great post!

<<But it’s not based on love – me for you and you for me; it’s based on Ennis’ fear of himself.>>

You know, I don't really see it that way. I think Ennis' wish to be exclusive IS based on love, even though he may not admit it to himself, or Jack. Sure he is afraid - love can be scary, especially to a homophobic man like Ennis.

<<He's both afraid to appear "not a real man" to Jack, and Ennis is limiting the relationship again. By saying "You know I ain't queer," Ennis is stating that there's no love involved here -- because love between two men would be wrong>>

Again, I disagree - somewhat. When Ennis says, you know I ain't queer, he may be referring to the ACT of being queer (sex with a man) rather the feelings involved. There is a difference. I believe Ennis felt that the love feelings were there, and that they were true, but the sex act itself is the queer part. of course, I could be wrong.




by - clancypants (Fri May 5 2006 09:13:29 )


littlewing1957 --

I don't disagree with what you said. In fact, I think it's part of what I was trying to say. I tried to say that even though it is love, and Ennis knows on a sublimated level that it is love, Ennis will not openly admit to it.

I may not have been clear about this.




by - Pursy (Fri May 5 2006 09:23:04 )


There are no villains in this love story. These two knew each other far better than the spoken word. Jack could 'play' within Ennis's limitations as Ennis could love him inspite of them. They shared humor and insights which did not need to be verbalized. This is one of the beauties of the film not so much dialogue as other films much more like our real lives.




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 09:34:22 )

<<Ennis knows that it's not about Mexico. He uses that as a way of putting Jack on the defensive and turning the conversation into an argument that he can deal with. Ennis tells Jack that he knows what Mexico has for boys like Jack... boys who fall in love with other boys. Ennis isn’t jealous of any other guy that Jack may have been with, Ennis is pissed off to learn that Jack has been with any other guy because that means this whole relationship of theirs wasn’t just a "thing" that "grabs hold of us," it's about two men loving each other.>>

I have an issue with this, also. Of course Ennis was jealous of Jack being with other men! So jealous, in fact, that he threatened to kill him. You don't threaten to kill someone you aren't jealous of. This is the reason he was so appalled when Jack said, "I wish I knew how to quit you." Ennis was terrified that Jack may find some other man to love, and he couldn't handle that. I believe Ennis at this point came to terms with the two men loving each other thing when he realized that Jack may have been looking elsewhere. Just my take.




by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 10:07:44 )

It is good that we both agreed on Jack. It will be easier just to concentrate on Ennis

Correct me if I'm wrong, as it surprised me as you didn't see it was love they had/shared on BBM. Of course fear was also there, has always been there since Ennis wasn't even 9 yrs old. Lots of discussion on what happened on BBM, and most concluded and acknowledged it was love they had on BBM. Both Ennis' dry heave and Jack's shirts captured this

But you did mention, love was there throughout the movie
There has been an extensive discussion/threads on this currently, I'm sure you have noticed them especially on the exact dialogues, the final lake scene

I did disagree with Ennis controlling their relationship. It was merely choices made, their mutual agreement. If anything in control at all, it was the fear/homophobia. But on BBM, nature was in control far more superior than the fear Ennis had

I do agree that Jack was being understanding. Letting Ennis some space to consider etc. Which exactly what choices/mutual understanding they both had/shared

IMO the fear was only real to Jack during their first reunion trip. Jack understood and felt it too. That's why he sticked and agree on 'if you can't fix it, Jack you gotta stand it'. He did try to argue, but fear was almost stamped on Ennis' head. All he can do was to be there for Ennis, almost saying 'it's ok Ennis, I'm with you/I'm here'

On BBM, when they made the pact, they actually confronted the then issue, the first tent scene. It was love as we see it and we knew both didn't fully understand, that it was love then. Nature got hold of them. The pact to continue the relationship, was possible with both having the same understanding on both sexuality and to keep it to themselves, and if I may add, it should end when BBM is over

Ennis found himself attracted to a man and tried to deny it. Jack only denied the label (I do believe Jack doesn't bother about labels). Initially, I believed that the pact they made was only a one-shot thing on BBM, but after reading your post on the rifle symbolism, I did consider it to be 'forever'

****Ennis did not mean "we have an exclusive relationship because we love each other so much." Ennis means that they will have an exclusive relationship, because "we're not really queers." If either of them goes for another guy, for whatever reason, then that will break the pact that they make up on the mountain. And the pact is, we’re not two guys in love, we’re not queers. The pact is a lie and Jack is willing to live with it for twenty years because Jack knows Ennis cannot handle the truth of the situation. This is how Jack shows his love for Ennis***

When you said that, I can also say that you weren't really saying it wasn't based on love. It was basically Ennis denying he was a queer (when he knew well outside BBM he will be labelled as queer) Jack didn't judge him, but respected him by telling about himself, and told him it is their business alone. Ennis didn't have to worry about being called a queer, he can comfortably have a relationship with Jack. NEVER did he deny about love. That's why IMO the one-shot conversation really about expressing their 'love'

Come to think about it, even if Jack didn't really meant he loved Ennis (but of course he did), Ennis wouldn't bother, for he did 'love' Jack. We clearly see this prior to the first tent scene

The 'one-shot pact' was supposed to stay and end in BBM. And the beauty was, Brokeback got them good. It was love indeed




by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 10:13:20 )


littlewing said it better on the 'queer' part

Clancy, but you did imply that the pact wasn't based on love and it was a lie




by - clancypants (Fri May 5 2006 10:53:35 )


Littlewing1957 –

You said: “Of course Ennis was jealous of Jack being with other men! So jealous, in fact, that he threatened to kill him."

I have to disagree with this 100%. It’s fear, not jealousy. Do you really believe that Ennis is thinking “Oh, Jack, but I’m the love of your heart and the fates meant for us to be together throughout all eternity…”? Is there any justification for this anywhere in the film before the final lake scene? No. Ennis is thinking “You were with another MAN? That means you’re queer. And if you’re queer, then I must be queer…. But I ain’t queer.” Is there any justification for this anywhere in the movie before the final lake scene? Yes. Everywhere, all the time. That’s the whole theme of the movie – Ennis’ fear about “queer.”

"You don't threaten to kill someone you aren't jealous of.”

Sure you do. When they completely and utterly destroy the very core of your being. That's what Jack's comments did to Ennis.

Taj e –

I never said they didn’t have love on BBM or anywhere else. In fact, I thought I made it clear there was always love there. The difference is that Jack knew it and admitted it to himself. He would not verbalize it to Ennis because of Ennis’ fears. Ennis had love, but he would not allow himself to believe it was that. He would not admit it to himself or to Jack. Ennis’ love for Jack is ALWAYS sublimated by his fears.

I’ve said this a hundred times and I don’t know how I can say it any clearer: YES JACK AND ENNIS LOVED EACH OTHER FROM VERY EARLY ON IN THE MOVIE. But the whole point of the movie is Ennis’ struggle with that love based on his fears and insecurities.

It seems that a lot of people want to put a big red heart cutout over the movie so they can watch the movie through this big heart of love. Well, good for them. But that’s not what the movie is about. It’s about Ennis’ fears and him finally coming to the realization about the love that was always there but that he wouldn’t allow himself to admit. It's not a love story; it's a tragedy.

Geesh! Let me take a breath...

You also said: “It was merely choices made, their mutual agreement.”

Yes. Their mutual agreement on choices that were all driven by Ennis’ fears.

“If anything in control at all, it was the fear/homophobia.”

Yes. That’s what I said. Ennis is controlled by his fears; thus, Ennis is in control.

“But on BBM, nature was in control far more superior than the fear Ennis had”

No. Ennis was more free to sublimate his fears at this time because of the openness and isolation of nature, thus letting nature take its course.

Choices and nature may be surface level factors, but underneath all of that is still one thing: Ennis' fears. It still always comes back to Ennis’s fears controlling himself and Jack understanding this.

You said: “When you said that, I can also say that you weren't really saying it wasn't based on love. It was basically Ennis denying he was a queer (when he knew well outside BBM he will be labelled as queer) Jack didn't judge him, but respected him by telling about himself, and told him it is their business alone. Ennis didn't have to worry about being called a queer, he can comfortably have a relationship with Jack. NEVER did he deny about love. That's why IMO the one-shot conversation really about expressing their 'love' .”

Sorry. I have to disagree. If that’s true, then they would have rolled over and kissed and gone back to the tent at that very moment. No. Jack is heartbroken by this conversation. He doesn’t know what to expect from this point on. Neither does Ennis. That’s why we see them at the start of the second tent scene with Ennis sitting outside the tent trying to make his decision on what he should do. If the queer scene was all about affirming their love for each other, then what decision would Ennis have to make?




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 11:07:58 )
UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 11:38:53


<<I have to disagree with this 100%. It’s fear, not jealousy. Do you really believe that Ennis is thinking “Oh, Jack, but I’m the love of your heart and the fates meant for us to be together throughout all eternity…”? Is there any justification for this anywhere in the film before the final lake scene? No. Ennis is thinking “You were with another MAN? That means you’re queer. And if you’re queer, then I must be queer…. But I ain’t queer.” Is there any justification for this anywhere in the movie before the final lake scene? Yes. Everywhere, all the time. That’s the whole theme of the movie – Ennis’ fear about “queer.”>>

Of course I believe that Ennis was jealous. Don't you think he was afraid of losing Jack? Do you think he wanted to see Jack walk out of his life? If this were the case, why even continue the relationship for over 20 years if he didn't feel that Jack was the love of his life? Ennis could just say, I'm not queer, we're not queer, let's just stick to women AND GO OUR SEPARATE WAYS! But no, Ennis continued to see Jack, probably wished he could make a life with Jack. Was afraid of losing him. In fact, I believe Ennis would have made some changes for Jack, if Jack had lived. He gave up Cassie, after all.

<<"You don't threaten to kill someone you aren't jealous of.”

Sure you do. When they completely and utterly destroy the very core of your being. That's what Jack's comments did to Ennis.>>

Oh, no, I disagree. In my experience only a terrified lover would threaten to kill in a case like this. Ennis in effect told Jack, If I find out you are fooling around with another man, I'll kill you. Sure it shook him to the core, but because he was afraid of being replaced. And remember Ennis totally broke down after Jack said he wish he knew how to quit him. Ennis didn't want to be quit. If there is no jealousy, there is no love.
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Re: The Exclusivity Pact between Jack and Ennis --- by clancypants
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2007, 05:31:19 pm »
The Exclusivity Pact between Jack and Ennis --- by clancypants --- 2 of 3

by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 11:50:48 )

UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 12:11:07

lol clancy, take your time, don't make it so hard on yourself
The reason I questioned your 'YES JACK AND ENNIS LOVED EACH OTHER FROM VERY EARLY ON IN THE MOVIE' earlier (of course you already answered that on your post to littlewing) was because you said, the pact wasn't based on Ennis's love
In a way, erasing love, taking it out from the equation (on Ennis' side)

***Ennis had love, but he would not allow himself to believe it was that. He would not admit it to himself or to Jack. Ennis’ love for Jack is ALWAYS sublimated by his fears***

***But the whole point of the movie is Ennis’ struggle with that love based on his fears and insecurities***

I can also say that by basing the pact on fear, also means love was there. Fear was just and 'excuse' a fake form
But really it is easier to say, it was based on their love for each other

***It seems that a lot of people want to put a big red heart cutout over the movie so they can watch the movie through this big heart of love. Well, good for them. But that’s not what the movie is about. It’s about Ennis’ fears and him finally coming to the realization about the love that was always there but that he wouldn’t allow himself to admit. It's not a love story; it's a tragedy***

It is a forbidden love story. Love was uplifted in BBM over homophobia. Unlike the book. Clancy, no one is saying all they see is love and ignore Ennis' fear

***Their mutual agreement on choices that were all driven by Ennis’ fears***

It does have little to do on Ennis part, certainly not on Jack. Jack was being understanding, and wouldn't say anything on Ennis' behalf (on the queer subject). He answered/agreed for himself. In fact he was the one who said, this is our business alone (while if not mistaken, it was Ennis' line in the book)
Jack doesn't share the same fear Ennis had, not at Ennis level

***“If anything in control at all, it was the fear/homophobia.”
Yes. That’s what I said. Ennis is controlled by his fears; thus, Ennis is in control***

Ultimately it was fear and not Ennis. If both Ennis and Jack can eliminate this fear, both of them can take control. Nature did that for them (esp. for Ennis)

***“But on BBM, nature was in control far more superior than the fear Ennis had”
No. Ennis was more free to sublimate his fears at this time because of the openness and isolation of nature, thus letting nature take its course.
Choices and nature may be surface level factors, but underneath all of that is still one thing: Ennis' fears. It still always comes back to Ennis’s fears controlling himself and Jack understanding this***

I read it as Nature is superior than Ennis' Fear
Hence the tagline, Love is a force of Nature
Their choices were influenced by Nature obviously. It doesn't necessarily eliminated Ennis' fear, but certainly fear was defeated
Fear factor: Homophobia is almost nil if not none at all in BBM, enable Ennis to love (in the real world, Ennis was just helpless)

***If that’s true, then they would have rolled over and kissed and gone back to the tent at that very moment. No. Jack is heartbroken by this conversation. He doesn’t know what to expect from this point on. Neither does Ennis. That’s why we see them at the start of the second tent scene with Ennis sitting outside the tent trying to make his decision on what he should do. If the queer scene was all about affirming their love for each other, then what decision would Ennis have to make?***

It was true as littlewing already differentiate 'queer' as an act and not feelings. As I said, fear was only defeated, it is not their character to right away do their thing upon making the pact. They have work to do for instance and it was only their 'first' experience, in their drunken state. Jack wasn't heartbroken, but yes he was unsure what to expect. But he certainly understood the pact, hence he was getting ready for the next tent scene

Ennis did decide to go into the tent, and we see Ennis fell into the arms of another man, not out of lust but clearly with tenderness and affection. It wasn't a 'queer' act as they have agreed NOT to have such, what left if not LOVE?




by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 12:04:02 )
UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 13:50:14

***<<"You don't threaten to kill someone you aren't jealous of.”
Sure you do. When they completely and utterly destroy the very core of your being. That's what Jack's comments did to Ennis.>>

Oh, no, I disagree. In my experience only a terrified lover would threaten to kill in a case like this. Ennis in effect told Jack, If I find out you are fooling around with another man, I'll kill you. Sure it shook him to the core, but because he was afraid of being replaced. And remember Ennis totally broke down after Jack said he wish he knew how to quit him. Ennis didn't want to be quit. If there is no jealousy, there is no love***

littlewing, you are right about 'only terrified lover would threaten to kill'
Ennis was terrified, but it wasn't about jealously. He was feared on losing Jack. That would be his biggest 'problem'. The only reason he lives, was the fact Jack is alive

In another thread, I've explained, it was Ennis' way in handling problem. He resorted into violence hence threatened Jack

EDIT: He feared that Jack might get killed




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 12:14:07 )
UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 12:23:01

<<Ennis was terrified, but it wasn't about jealously. He was feared on losing Jack. That would be his biggest 'problem'. The only reason he lives, was the fact Jack is alive>>

I see this as the same thing.

Are we actually talking about fear of losing Jack to another, or fear of Jack dying in a gay bashing or other horrible incident?

I am having a problem seeing how Ennis couldn't be jealous of Jack. Everyone I've ever spoken to who has seen the movie (more than once, mind you) tell me that Ennis was jealous in that final lake scene. How can he not be? If I loved someone, of course I would be concerned about that person's safety, but if my lover said they been seeing someone else, I would be fighting mad jealous. If not, I have no feelings for that person. Oh, and I am not a violent person, but I would resort to violence if my lover cheated on me. If I were Ennis and I imagined that sweet, appealling Jack, a man who can have anyone, hugging up on some other dude, I would be scared, and fighting mad!




by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 12:21:56 )

littlewing, I should have mentioned that Ennis was jealous about it (as I did in the other thread), but it wasn't so much about jealousy. It was his fear of loosing Jack, that Jack might get killed

Remember his childhood experienced?

Ennis lives for Jack. No Jack, he would be 'dead'
I've earlier posted the below on another thread

by - taj_e 3 hours ago (Fri May 5 2006 08:38:51 )

There's something about pestercurio's post that 'bothers' me. I just couldn't figure it out then

The fact that Ennis wasn't able to commit himself into a better (paying/secured like the electrical co) job. Ennis was just torn in between. Tried to juggle it
When he told Jack to shut up about Alma, it made more sense now
(If he can live by the 24 dollars left by his parents under his siblings care, he might thought he can do so with his family)

It is clear now, having a family, a job is just an excuse to cover up his deep secret, his love for Jack! There's no purpose in life other than to love Jack. 'It is because of (I love) you Jack, I'm like this, I'm no one, nowhere'

He tried to mantain this 'his excuses/living a 'normal' life', to enable him, loving Jack, to stand it. He feared either of them will be dead for trying to fix it. He might have thought, Jack will have the same POV and expected Jack to do the same. And warned him not to do otherwise. If Jack died, he will be 'dead' too, vice versa. Nothing to love anymore, no purpose in life anymore
(the book clearly show this)

A 'weird' way to protect your loved one but was very true in Ennis case

Ennis was helpless, crying for help in desperation, a dead man walking, a zombie
I think when he said, 'well why don't you' (followed by the rest) was almost saying, 'If you want to quit me, go ahead. Because I can't'

It hurts because it almost saying Ennis wanted to get rid of Jack. Although I can rational this as saying, if Jack finally wanted to call it a day, Jack might finally able to move on and Ennis will be content enough to wish him all best even if it will break his heart worst died of a broken heart

But as I said I choose to see this as a CRY for help in desperation. And Jack did all that for Ennis. Jack was the one who died of a broken heart and wish all best for Ennis




by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 12:29:47 )


littlewing, perhaps 'protecting' Jack would be the right word. Worried?




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 12:34:02 )
UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 12:38:53

So what you are saying is, Ennis was jealous, but his desire to protect Jack was the stronger motivation? I'm still having trouble with this (not wanting to sound obtuse) but isn't this the brillance of this psychological, angsty drama? It can be intrepreted so many ways, and we can talk about it with great pleasure until the cows come home.

But I digress..

Okay, sure Ennis was concerned about Jack's safety, but why would he say, "All those things I don't know about could get you killed if I SHOULD come to know them." I take this to mean that I, not someone else, will kill you if I find you with another man. If he was so concerned about Jack's being killed by someone else, he would have said, "Jack, what's the matter with you? I told you what happened to old Earl, if you keep on like this, someone might kill you. I don't think Ennis would kill Jack because he was acting queer. Why do that? Why would he want to be like those goons who killed Earl? I can't believe that Ennis was THAT screwed up. If Ennis didn't want a queer relationship, he would have severed all ties with Jack from the beginning. Just my POV.




by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 12:50:20 )


***So what you are saying is, Ennis was jealous, but his desire to protect Jack was the stronger motivation?***
Exactly. Consider Ennis' worst fear, homophobia. And of course how he handles problems, getting rid of them

***"All those things I don't know about could get you killed if I SHOULD come to know them." I take this to mean that I, not someone else, will kill you if I find you with another man. If he was so concerned about Jack's being killed by someone else, he would have said, "Jack, what's the matter with you? I told you what happened to old Earl, if you keep on like this, someone might kill you. I don't think Ennis would kill Jack because he was acting queer. Why do that? Why would he want to be like those goons who killed Earl? I can't believe that Ennis was THAT screwed up. If Ennis didn't want a queer relationship, he would have severed all ties with Jack from the beginning. Just my POV.***

Same as us begging Ennis to explain it proper to Jack while on BBM instead of giving him that dirty punch AND the frequent surprised attacked he gave his older brother then, no words said, until the his problems was gone

Jack understood the dirty punch he had (at least on the book) and the final lake threats he received
K.E understood as well as the he never again picked on him




by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 12:51:55 )

UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 12:54:27

Sorry, I've included KE there as it wasn't in the movie
And maybe the 4th of July and Thanksgiving Dinner too





by - west_mont (Fri May 5 2006 13:02:24 )


I agree with you, littlewing, on this whole discussion. Ennis was jealous, and scared of losing Jack. The thought of losing Jack was so overwhelming that he brokedown and collapsed in Jack's arms. I can still remember the shock and ache I felt when I watched BBM for the first time (over 4 months ago). I almost had a breakdown myself watching Ennis sheading tears in that final lake scene.




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 13:04:30 )

<<Same as us begging Ennis to explain it proper to Jack while on BBM instead of giving him that dirty punch AND the frequent surprised attacked he gave his older brother then, no words said, until the his problems was gone>>

Yes, however, Ennis was no longer a 19 year old, and even though he still used violence to handle things, I would like to believe that after 20 years, he would have learned to express himself better. Perhaps not.

<<Jack understood the dirty punch he had (at least on the book) and the final lake threats he received
K.E understood as well as the he never again picked on him >>

It is okay to mention K.E. here. And even with K.E., Ennis had to be taught to hit. He did not think to hit K.E., his father put him up to it. Jack understood Ennis' violent outbursts as well, but he knew that Ennis would never hurt him. Jack also knew to keep his mouth shut about seeing other men. I'm sure Ennis suspected that Jack was sleeping with other dudes in mexico, but jack knew better than to elaborate.




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 13:08:35 )

Exactly! Why else would he be brought to his knees when jack talks about quitting him if he weren't afraid of losing Jack, especially to another man? It doesn't make sense to me.




by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 13:17:01 )

UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 13:19:51

Yes you're right
It was because of what he was thought on KE he manifested it on Jack, Alma, the two punks, the roughneck and Jack
Obviously Ennis didn't learn how to express himself better not until the final lake scene, when he admit he can no longer stand it (ignore the 'get the f of me! lol)

I respect Jack for he knew when and what to shut up and said it all out
He was very attentive to Ennis' emotion. Not to hurt the already hurt poor Ennis, his lover. I respect him even more, when he realised he was being selfish towards Ennis. Letting himself see his lover was hurting all those 20 years

I think we have been a bit astray from the topic lol




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 13:22:53 )

<<I think we have been a bit astray from the topic lol>>

Yes, sorta! But I'm enjoying it, nonetheless!




by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 13:40:13 )


littlewing, which is better? :)
Ennis threatened to kill Jack, because...

1. He was dead jealous and was afraid of loosing Jack to another man. Jack cheated on him, Jack didn't love him. Loosing Jack means the end of his world (mere jealousy)

2. He was afraid, that Jack might get killed over homophobia. Loosing Jack means the end of his world (protecting Jack)




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 14:56:49 )


I don't think it is a matter of being better. I just think #1 is more true. Except the part about Jack cheating on Ennis, and Jack didn't love him. Just because Jack cheated does not mean he didn't love Ennis. We all saw how Ennis practically drove jack into a Mexican hustler's arms, if that did indeed happen. we didn't see what happened in that alley. Jack could have turned and ran, for all we know. Jack was hurt that Ennis rejected him and his need for Ennis may have driven him to a substitute. But he did not love Ennis any less.

I am not saying that #2 is not valid, but I don't think that was the main thing that was on Ennis' mind at the lake.




by - the_protector (Fri May 5 2006 14:57:09 )

What a great discussion!
I love the final confrontation scene because because there are so many emotions neing flung around. So many things itching to be said, fearing to be said, hating to be said.
Man, isn't love confusing and frustrating enough...why must these poor guys have to deal with the restrictions society places on them? It's just unfair!

But as far as the current debate about protection vs jealousy, I think i would choose jealousy...but not just because of the reason above. I think Ennis was jealous of Jack, not just because he was 'needing something he hardly never gets' but ACTING on that need.

When Jack goes "You have no idea how bad it gets!" He's thinking that just because Ennis is exclusive to Jack, that Ennis doesn't feel the need that Jack does.
I'm pretty sure Ennis feels that need...BUT...Ennis is dead-scared to act on it. He supresses it and becomes a human bottle rocket: Either very calm or very explosive, no middle ground. I'm sure Ennis hates feeling this way, feeling trapped. But he can't help it, the homophobia is so deeply ingrained.

Jack on the other does act on his feelings. He wears his heart on his sleeve and allows himself to fulfill his needs. Jack is embracing this 'thing' that takes hold of them. Ennis tries just to 'stand it.'
So when Jack goes "Hell yeah I been to Mexico. What's the effing problem?" Ennis' problem is that Jack's ability to pursue his feeling. Ennis is also scared and paranoid.

--"What I don't know. All those THINGS I don't know."

Ennis is totally imagining that if Jack can fulfill his needs in Mexico, there's a good chance he does things like this ALL the time.

And of course, as clancy said, this completely decimates Ennis' 'one-shot thing' delusion.




by - catglith (Fri May 5 2006 15:10:38 )

Maybe it's a little bit of both - Ennis' first reaction was a jealous rage, then after and underneath that there was a real fear that Jack could get 'found out'.

After Jack admits to going to Mexico i'm not so sure if Ennis initially thought he could lose Jack to another man so much as he thought he'd lose Jack because he couldn't give Jack what he wanted. Jack was clearly expressing how unhappy he was with the situation that Ennis had imposed on them, and was seriously upset and fed up.
After Ennis threatens Jack, Jack brings up "the rest". I think it was at that moment it dawned on Ennis that Jack was maybe carrying out more than one-night stands in Mexico, and that was when the fear for Jack (and more jealousy/anger) came in.




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 15:13:49 )


<<--"What I don't know. All those THINGS I don't know."

Ennis is totally imagining that if Jack can fulfill his needs in Mexico, there's a good chance he does things like this ALL the time.>>

Exactly. This would scare any sane man dealing with a sweet thing like Jack! But (yeah, I'm going to open it up) Jack didn't tell Ennis exactly WHAT he did in Mexico, and I'm thinking that Ennis may have deluded himself into thinking that Jack didn't really participate, if you know what I'm referring to here. And Ennis must have realized that he drove Jack to it.

Do you think Ennis thought Jack saw other men besides Mexican hustlers?




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 15:20:46 )


<<After Jack admits to going to Mexico i'm not so sure if Ennis initially thought he could lose Jack to another man so much as he thought he'd lose Jack because he couldn't give Jack what he wanted>>

This is what I left out. Definitely true. Ennis began to realize that Jack was nearing the end of his rope. But the end result is that Jack WOULD find another man, and Ennis must have had all those thoughts of Jack gentling, cuddling someone else, kissing him, showing some other guy the same tenderness he showed Ennis. It must have been unbearable!
Former IMDb Name: True Oracle of Phoenix / TOoP (I pronounce it "too - op") / " in fire forged,  from ash reborn" / Currently: GeorgeObliqueStrokeXR40

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Re: The Exclusivity Pact between Jack and Ennis --- by clancypants
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2007, 05:34:45 pm »
The Exclusivity Pact between Jack and Ennis --- by clancypants --- 3 of 3

by - catglith (Fri May 5 2006 15:23:57 )

UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 15:24:19

"Do you think Ennis thought Jack saw other men besides Mexican hustlers?"

Jack mentions "the rest" after he admits to Mexico, so Ennis must have guessed he slept with other men. I think he undertood why Jack did it though, especially after Jack says, exasperated and angry, "i can't make it on a couple a high altitude *beep* once or twice a year". Whether or not he believed that Jack was seriously involved with any of them is a different matter - he loked stunned when Jack's father mentioned the 'other fellow' (i HATE that man).




by - catglith (Fri May 5 2006 15:30:58 )


"Ennis must have had all those thoughts of Jack gentling, cuddling someone else, kissing him, showing some other guy the same tenderness he showed Ennis. It must have been unbearable!"

<sob!> OMG! Poor Ennis. I didn't look at it like that! Bottom line, Ennis was hopelessly, deeply, once-in-a-lifetime in love with Jack. The thought that Jack could/would find someone else or was seeing someone different must have brought so many emotions to the surface -deep hurt, jealousy, anger, pain, and then the homophobia - disgust, revulsion.

On a side note, do you think Jack ever showed tenderness or shared emotional intimacy with his flings or Randall (more so the latter)?




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 16:14:06 )

<<On a side note, do you think Jack ever showed tenderness or shared emotional intimacy with his flings or Randall (more so the latter)?>>

No, I don't think he would do that, although Jack comes across as a very loving person. In fact, and I've said it ad naseum, so forgive me, but I don't think Jack had a lot of other affairs, if he had any at all. There is no real evidence that he did.




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 16:17:07 )


<<Jack mentions "the rest" after he admits to Mexico, so Ennis must have guessed he slept with other men>>

Yes, but we don't really know what "the rest" is. It may be totally unrelated to romance, or sleeping with other men. I like to hope it is unrelated, LOL!




by - catglith (Fri May 5 2006 16:40:07 )


"I like to hope it is unrelated"

Me too! Sometimes when i watch/discuss/think about this film i feel like i'm battling the cynical realist and hopeless romantic in me! So i've come to the conclusion i'll believe Jack 'quit' Ennis in the book, but stayed with Ennis in the film (fits with the dominant love story theme).

Btw, I think that Jack went to Mexico maybe a few times a year when he got really desperate up until he met Randall, who then peformed the role those hustlers played in Jack's life - i.e. convenient, 'no strings' sex partner.




by - littlewing1957 (Fri May 5 2006 16:47:54 )

UPDATED Fri May 5 2006 16:50:03

<<Btw, I think that Jack went to Mexico maybe a few times a year when he got really desperate up until he met Randall, who then peformed the role those hustlers played in Jack's life - i.e. convenient, 'no strings' sex partner.>>

Okay, fair enough. I don't think he went to Mexico more than once, and for some reason I can't see Jack having anything going with Randall, though I am in a small minority here. Something I feel about Jack's "vibe" toward Randall when Randall propositioned him.




by - catglith (Fri May 5 2006 17:12:12 )

Well, i really really really want to believe nothing happened, and a part of me still doesn't believe in the Jack-Randall 'relationship'. But, i still think that IF something was going on, it meant little to Jack and it existed only out of loneliness and desperation because he wasn't with Ennis.

Oh, and i totally get the whole 'vibe' thing with Randall. When i saw the film for the first time at the theatre, i felt really uncomfortable when that scene came on. Just from the first shot i saw of Randall making eyes at Jack....<shudders>. Jack came across to me like he was aware that Randall was gay, and felt put out by it, wary. Then when he came on to Jack later, i think Jack was initially shocked, and then his mind wandered to Ennis. And however much Jack might have been frustrated and hurt by Ennis' actions and the infrequent fishing trips, a part of me just can't see him accepting. He knew he would be betraying Ennis' trust and deceiving him - regular sex with a neighbour is greatly different to having a few irregular one night stands in Mexico, even if there is a lack of emotional attachment there.




by - javanutt (Fri May 5 2006 19:56:07 )

Even if Jack had a physical relationship with Randall (and it's not really clear that he did), there was no indication of an emotional bond that J and E had. And, even though E was engaged to Alma, he confessed to Jack he hadn't talked that much in a year, also indicating that there was not a strong emotional connection with Alma. I see the physical growing out of the emotional (particularly for Ennis), rather than the other way around.




by - the_protector (Fri May 5 2006 20:25:43 )

"Oh, and i totally get the whole 'vibe' thing with Randall. When i saw the film for the first time at the theatre, i felt really uncomfortable when that scene came on. Just from the first shot i saw of Randall making eyes at Jack....<shudders>. Jack came across to me like he was aware that Randall was gay, and felt put out by it, wary. Then when he came on to Jack later, i think Jack was initially shocked, and then his mind wandered to Ennis."

I agree.

I know the common conception is that Jack was really asking Randall to dance. Why? Just because Randall was making goo goo eyes at him? Is Jack really gonna just pick up on any guy who happens to be gay? I don't think so. Yes I think he acknowledged Randall's intentions but I believe he did ask LaSwawn to dance to escape the dual tension he was receiving from Lureen AND Randall.

Later on when he's stuck with Randall, he jokes about the women to steer any conversion away from the obvious undertones...but, to Jack's chagrin, it doesn't work.




by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 23:07:05 )


We are talking about jealously remember. You do not feel jealous without these factors, being cheated upon or doubting one's love

***I don't think it is a matter of being better. I just think #1 is more true***
If truth matters most, Ennis' Fear is the most obvious of all




by - taj_e (Fri May 5 2006 23:13:01 )
UPDATED Sat May 6 2006 02:06:12

hi all
I think while discussing the current subject, we should also try to discuss the main topic of the OP

Basically on the 'one-shot pact' they made on BBM, the Exclusivity Pact (I like the sound of it lol)




by - catglith (Sat May 6 2006 10:33:43 )


I thought the 'Jack-asking-Randall-to-dance' issue was cleared up when the OP of the thread said he had been wrong after he watched the DVD again?

Anywho, yep, i agree with your comments the_protector. The Randall-Jack relationship, IMO, is just as ambiguous as Jack's death.




by - taj_e (Sun May 7 2006 06:02:26 )

UPDATED Sun May 7 2006 06:53:05

Martin posted this on another thread …

by-MartinPh 1 hour ago (Sun May 7 2006 04:17:02 )
UPDATED Sun May 7 2006 04:56:51

<<<"They don't just fell in love, they were also attracted to each other sexually.">>>

That's interesting - I would put it exactly the other way around. "They didn't just have sex, they were also in love with each other". Going by Proulx's comments, I actually think here is the crux of homophobia, which is what the story is about. Sex between men in all-male work communities is not all that rare and mostly tacitly accepted. Proulx quotes and old sheep rancher who once told her that he always sent two shepherds up with the flock, so that if it got lonesome they "could poke each other". Think of Aguirre confronting Jack with his knowledge of Jack's and Ennis's sexual exploits. He's hardly the paragon of moral indignation; he's seen it all before, and even has a cute colloquial phrase for it. He's merely angry that the men weren't doing the job they were paid to do.

The sex is not the problem, the problem is that they actually fall in love. Hardly any civilized western society these days outlaws gay sex; but most of these same societies refuse to legally sanction the love between two men and to recognize it as something that is on an equal footing with love between a man and a woman. Gay sex can be put away as an inncocent bit of fun, an undignified and ludicrous activity, or a perverse abberation, according to taste; but love is quite another thing. It is love, not sex, that scares homophobes. And it is their love, not their sex, which makes Ennis and Jack into gay men (while, by the same token, the sex with their wives doesn't make them hetero- or bisexual. Note, by the way, in what position Ennis takes his wife - he can't even look her in the face when having sex with her).
This is all clearer in the story than in the film. "What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger." Note the word "sexless".

This, in turn, is what Ennis can't deal with. He can cope with the sex as a 'one-off thing', "not being queer", but he can't cope with the extraordinary, strong feelings Jack arouses in him and which are quite unlike anything he's ever felt for his wife (or can ever feel for any woman). He can't cope with the fact he's gay. It simply doesn't fit his mould, and Ennis is far too inhited, scared and unimaginative a man to break out of it. Instead, he seeks the blame somewhere else and tries to externalize his confusion - which he is only able to do through anger almost throughout the film. The final scene has such a tremendous impact because there, finally and far too late, he acknowledges his feelings for Jack, if not quite through his words (which remain lacking), then at least through his tears and the shirts in his closet.

Just my take on it

<<This, in turn, is what Ennis can't deal with. He can cope with the sex as a 'one-off thing', "not being queer", but he can't cope with the extraordinary, strong feelings Jack arouses in him and which are quite unlike anything he's ever felt for his wife (or can ever feel for any woman). He can't cope with the fact he's gay >>

Introducing the fear, homophobia...
<<The sex is not the problem, the problem is that they actually fall in love >>

Perhaps this is what Clancy was trying to say...
Now if this is the fear Ennis tried to tell Jack, it basically saying Ennis only agreed on the sex part but NOT the 'feeling'. If this is the case, I guess I have to agree with Clancy (and of course you Martin)

<<This is all clearer in the story than in the film. "What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger." Note the word "sexless" >>

I guess Jack understood it too, hence the pact was NOTHING about their feelings. It was a lie. On Jack being heartbroken? Since I do agree he also had the feeling and was able to express it, I have to agree he was

Clancy, I guess it made sense now, thanks for trying to convince me earlier as you did manage now




by - taj_e (Sun May 7 2006 06:27:31 )
UPDATED Sun May 7 2006 06:40:06

I can't believe myself saying, Ennis is a 'homophobe' himself *sighs*
If falling in love with the same sex is what people fear in BBM, and what BBM is trying to portray... (I can't even finished the sentence)




by - MartinPh (Sun May 7 2006 06:34:03 )


Just reread the short story again - about time to consult a therapist and find a cure for this obsession...

Anyway, my impression is that, seeing things are going nowhere with Ennis, Jack seeks sexual gratification with other men. Again, the short story is quite explicit in this regard: *beep* no,' said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own." - and this during the motel room scene, only four years after Jack and Ennis got to know each other.

There's no doubt in my mind that Jack got involved with Randall, the other man he told his father he would bring up to Lightning Flat. But clearly the sole effect of all these excursions is only to make him more aware of how much he misses Ennis. When true love is involved, stand-ins won't do.




by - taj_e (Sun May 7 2006 06:45:18 )

UPDATED Sun May 7 2006 06:46:27

Martin can you shed some light on the theme? Nature esp
I'm already in therapy now (at least since I saw/read BBM) :)




by - taj_e (Sun May 7 2006 06:48:32 )

UPDATED Sun May 7 2006 06:49:18

I can't believe myself saying, Ennis is a 'homophobe' himself *sighs*
If falling in love with the same sex is what people fear in BBM, and what BBM is trying to portray... (I can't even finished the sentence)

Ennis: Jack, I swear... (I/HE can't even finished HIS sentence)




by - taj_e (Sun May 7 2006 08:53:01 )
UPDATED Sun May 7 2006 10:21:47

I was supposed to post this on another thread in reply to Casey's post about the final trailer scene, but posted it here instead

I always thought I knew how simple Ennis' fear was, that has been haunting Ennis
(Although I'm having difficulty, rather in doubt whether it haunted Jack too, as Jack seemed he can live with such fear, while having no problem 'understanding' how much it affected Ennis, at least from their first reunion trip onwards)

A YES from Alma Jr really an answer he should have uttered to Jack

Ennis: 'I love you...'
I thought Proulx really meant it that way, 'Jack, I swear...'

How sad can it be, a man in love with another man can cause one so much fear
Was it love itself or what would be the result of it? Death/Queer/Gay? *sighs*

Ennis: 'You know I ain't queer' 'Two men living together, No way'




by - taj_e 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 23:27:53 )


Tribute to Jack and Ennis!
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Re: The Exclusivity Pact between Jack and Ennis --- by clancypants
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2013, 01:57:53 pm »
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