The possibility of abuse
by - momoro (Tue Mar 14 2006 10:11:10 )
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UPDATED Tue Mar 14 2006 11:07:14
There is certainly a suggestion that abuse was present in Ennis and Alma's marriage, or that at least Alma feared that there could be violence. We never actually see any, and are only shown Ennis's violent reactions to other men. But I don't think there can be any doubt that Alma did fear Ennis, and perhaps had good reason to do so.
Interestingly, Jack seems to have no fear of Ennis, despite the fact that he once was struck by him. At the very least, he does not flinch when Ennis threatens him at their final meeting, and by standing his ground and venting his hurt feelings, actually reduces Ennis to tears. Jack's lie to Ennis about the truth of his affair with Randall might be seen as a product of fear, but I think a fear more of losing Ennis, or hurting his feelings, than a fear of being victimized by him.
Nothing compares, I think, when thinking right, to a good friend.
Re: Supermarket Scene
by - artsybaebe (Tue Mar 14 2006 10:34:52 )
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yeah, but that's because he doesn't want to go out to the church social, 'the fire and brimstone crowd' as he calls them . . . probably wasn't much else to do on a Sat night
Re: The possibility of abuse
by - lucise (Tue Mar 14 2006 10:53:23 )
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<<
or that at least Alma feared that there could be violence
>>
I think Alma understood that Ennis' temper was quick and fiery. He just seemed to explode and react rather violently with sometimes little provocation. I agree that she looked pretty scared when Ennis beat up the bikers on the July 4th picnic. ...And who wouldn't be, you could practically see the steam coming out of his ears in that scene
. I think Alma knew that p!ssing Ennis off could have very undesirable consequences, and I am sure that undoubtedly frightened her.
<<
Interestingly, Jack seems to have no fear of Ennis, despite the fact that he once was struck by him.
>>
Again, I agree. I think Jack knew Ennis' soul. He knew that Ennis was a little lamb in a tiger's body. He knew Ennis' insecurities and weaknesses. I think Jack knew that Ennis' threat and anger during their last confrontation was primarily out of Ennis' fear of losing him, not because Ennis could really kill him for going to Mexico. IMO, the reason Jack and Ennis could ever be together for those 20 years was because they complemented each other; they understood each other; although they never completely accepted each other.
'If you sleep through life, you wake up dead.'
Re: Supermarket Scene
by - queen_of_the_troubled_teen (Tue Mar 14 2006 11:08:14 )
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I think the bit in your final paragraph is key here, or at least it is to me. I always thought the point of the supermarket scene was to contrast with the way Ennis threw off work when Jack turned up. He dumps his kids on his wife because he dare not get sacked. Keeping his job seems incredibly important to their life (which is why I assumed Alma acquiesced). Of course, as soon as Jack asks him to take some time off, he doesn't need much persuasion and decides the foreman owes him. The scene sheds further light on the relative importance of Alma and Jack to Ennis. And of course, he continues risking his work to be with Jack, something (his inability to properly support his family) which leads to his divorce.
The only thing is, I can't work out if this theme continues right up until his and Jack's last meeting. Ennis is now more reluctant to take time off work but suggesting that this means Jack has diminished in importance seems to go against everything else in that scene. So perhaps it's just the reality of life catching up with him. Or maybe the fact that he's even taking any time off (I'm guessing he didn't have annual leave entitlements like I do in my job)despite his precarious situation is testament to the enduring strength of his feelings for Ennis.
Re: Supermarket Scene
by - NewHorizons37 (Tue Mar 14 2006 11:08:22 )
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On the other hand, there is a later scene when Alma insists on going to work, even though Ennis angrily demands her presence at home.
This is what I thought was a major reason for the supermarket scene, to set up a contrast between that scene and this later one when Alma defies Ennis. In the early scene, Jack is not yet in the picture, and and things in the marriage are going fairly well (as far as she knows), so she'll back down to her husband in accordance with the expectations of the time and place. In the later scene, the "fishing trips" have been going on for years and she is fed up, and not so willing to take Ennis' chauvinist BS.
Re: The possibility of abuse
by - patsnnott (Tue Mar 14 2006 12:06:56 )
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Not to rain on anyone's parade, but I think if Jack and Ennis had been together every day in a real relationship, it never would have lasted twenty years.
"Ole Brokeback got us good!" - Jack Twist
Re: The possibility of abuse
by - delalluvia (Tue Mar 14 2006 12:17:52 )
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I'm with New Horizon and the earlier poster who said Ennis is the man in 1967 Wyoming. HIS job is more important than Alma's no matter what. SHE is supposed to be home taking care of the kids, but because they can't afford for her to be home, she has to work. That, in Ennis's mind, does not make her job equal to his or more important than his.
Forced to go into work by his boss, he would naturally drop the kids off with Alma. Doesn't matter that she's working. SHE is the primary caregiver of the kids, not him.
No, I didn't see Ennis look at Alma as threatening. I simply saw it as a 'Don't start this again, woman' implying a fight is in the making, not violence. And Alma, realizing this and knowing she probably won't win, gives in.
patsnnott
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but I think if Jack and Ennis had been together every day in a real relationship, it never would have lasted twenty years.
Maybe, maybe not. Guess we'll never know.
Team Jolie
Re: The possibility of abuse
by - lucise (Tue Mar 14 2006 12:21:38 )
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<<
I think if Jack and Ennis had been together every day in a real relationship, it never would have lasted twenty years.
>>
I think they could've made it. But then again, we'll never know.
'If you sleep through life, you wake up dead.'
Re: The possibility of abuse
by - stevme (Tue Mar 14 2006 12:36:07 )
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One thing that has not been mentioned here, and which I saw discussed at some length in a post of a few weeks ago, was the importance of the food display falling down and the loud noise that accompanies it. It is the loud noise, in particular, that caught peoples' attention. Ang here is providing an exclamation point to this scene. If someone can remember this discussion, I think it might add further light to this interesting analysis.
Food seems to be the theme of the day, as there is another post from today on beans versus soup.
Re: The possibility of abuse
by - grghls (Tue Mar 14 2006 14:30:47 )
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once again DELALLUVIA contradicts someone else's assertion completely disregarding that it is backed up by facts. to reiterate: michelle williams stated in an interview that she played alma as if she had been physically abused by ennis. i added this post to figure out whether this is one of the scenes in BBM in which she tries to convey this. since you feel she did not show it in this scene perhaps you could point to another scene where she did convey it. or if you feel she did not use her acting in this movie to convey her character's fear of ennis you could explain how else she would show it or why she would say she was trying to convery this impression in the first place.
team using logic and reason to find meaning
Re: The possibility of abuse
by - NewHorizons37 (Tue Mar 14 2006 14:40:08 )
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Please provide a source. I have never heard of Michelle Williams saying this. It doesn't fit Ennis' character, and it doesn't fit how Alma ever behaves toward him.
Alma does not appear physically afraid of Ennis in the supermarket scene. If she were, she would never have said, "what about my job?" or made any objection at all about how inconvenient it was to have the kids dumped on her at work. I agree with delalluvia that there was no threat of violence in that scene; simply, when Ennis gave her that "I mean it" look, she knew there was no use resisting further, and gave in. She was not going to win this one.
Re: Supermarket Scene
by - RobertPlant (Tue Mar 14 2006 14:58:50 )
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He is thinking of HIS job and keeping his boss happy
Yes, I think so. This scene is connected with the post reunion one when Ennis is leaving with Jack and Alma asks him if his boss will be agree etc. and he makes a long (for Ennis) speech to explain he has the right to be off work.
and BTW an OT remark:
look at this pic
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/7537/hulk29ra.png Can you see "Hulk"?
I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly
Re: The possibility of abuse
by - dcij47a (Tue Mar 14 2006 15:33:58 )
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I think the mess is to illustrate how disatrous Jack's character has made their marriage become.
It is also interesting to note that Michelle has mentioned in one of the interview that the snow sliding that we see in the begining as like their marriage -- "all downhill from there."
Jack Twist: Tell you what. The truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.
Re: Supermarket Scene
by - grghls (Tue Mar 14 2006 16:55:51 )
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i'm sorry i was looking for the exact interview with michelle willimas but i have been coming here pretty regularly and have seen and read so many interviews about BBM that it is impossible to locate or remember the exact source. i can say that there is no doubt in my mind that she said this because i always noticed michelle williams playing alma as if she is terrified of ennis (especially in the 4th of july and grocery store scenes) and when she confirmed that she played alma as a battered wife i thought: i knew it! does anyone else know the exact interview where she states this? it may have been the tv special where they were interviewed on location in alberta.
Re: The possibility of abuse
by - delalluvia (Tue Mar 14 2006 17:02:04 )
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once again DELALLUVIA contradicts someone else's assertion completely disregarding that it is backed up by facts. to reiterate: michelle williams stated in an interview that she played alma as if she had been physically abused by ennis.
OK grghls, please cite your source. I don't recall ever reading this either.
Team Jolie
Re: The possibility of abuse
by - grghls (Tue Mar 14 2006 17:15:44 )
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NEWHORIZONS 37 states: "(physical abuse) doesn't fit ennis' character..."
you're kidding right?
Re: The possibility of abuse
by - NewHorizons37 (Tue Mar 14 2006 18:16:17 )
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UPDATED Tue Mar 14 2006 18:20:04
Toward Alma, no, there is nothing in that indicates physical abuse by Ennis toward Alma. All the scenes before the supermarket scene show affection between them, and her being in love with him, and certainly not afraid. And the fact that she looked so shocked when he went physical on the biker guys on the 4th of July indicates that she had never seen him act this way toward anyone else, either. The supermarket scene shows some friction between them (which happens occasionally in any marriage), but not fear on her part.
The only time Ennis comes close toward hurting Alma -- and note he stops himself and leaves -- is after she provokes him by making it clear that she knows the nature of his and Jack's relationship. If she were afraid of him and there was an abuse past between them, she never would have taken the risk of bringing it up. She was startled by his action because it was out of character for the man she knew.
So how about it -- where is your source that Michelle said she played Alma as having been abused by Ennis? In the early scenes Michelle doesn't play Alma as afraid of Ennis, and the script gives her no context to do so.
Re: The possibility of abuse
by - delalluvia (Tue Mar 14 2006 20:28:54 )
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And the fact that she looked so shocked when he went physical on the biker guys on the 4th of July indicates that she had never seen him act this way toward anyone else, either.
If she were afraid of him and there was an abuse past between them, she never would have taken the risk of bringing it up.
Exactly New. Alma doesn't act like a battered woman. July 4th is probably the first time she's EVER seen any violence out of Ennis and it shocks her.
Team Jolie
