I don't think Mr Twist cared that his son was gay --- by BannerHill

[TOoP/Bruce]

REPOST (thanks to "TDE" for saving this thread0
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I don't think Mr Twist cared that his son was gay --- by BannerHill --- 1 of 3



by - BannerHill (Mon May 1 2006 10:58:57 )
UPDATED Mon May 1 2006 11:14:35

I don't.

True, he was boiling over with hatred and resentment, but nowhere did I see any thing which suggested that he was angry because his son was gay.

I believe that Twist Sr was a very angry man. I think hate had become a way of life for him. I think he hated everything and everybody. If he knew his son was gay, I don't think it mattered all that much to him. He was angry with his son, and the entire world, on principle.

That Jack survived his own childhood and had any hope in his heart at all is a miracle.




by - Floyd_RHL (Mon May 1 2006 11:51:54 )
UPDATED Mon May 1 2006 11:54:05

Not much is mentioned about his father in either the movie or the story. If I may recall from the story, when Jack was mistreated so badly, child services would immediately come and take him away from that household, never to leave him with them ever again. In the movie, Jack's father hardly seemed fatherly toward his son, but he did leave an impression. Could Jack have been searching for a father figure himself, as a result, as some young women inadvertently tend to do themselves, when their fathers have inexplicably abandoned them at an early age? In my opinion, Jack seemed to be very nurturing: he liked holding sheep in his lap, on his shoulders, he immediately knew to untie his hanky, dip it in the hot water to tend to Ennis' bruises, and he was known as the "complainer" / "whiner" because he had shown concern for his son's education... notice the quotes, ladies!

Jack also mentioned in the movie that his mother was very religious. Like Jack, I don't know that much about Pentecost, but quite possibly, the father took his devoutness to the extreme and maybe was trying to rectify wrongdoings from his own past in order to redeem himself to be a father for Jack. Perhaps this is what Jack saw in his father. Personally I think Jack seems very healthy in spite of this too, and in wanting to improve the lifestyle for his parents, he was mainly doing it for his mother.




by - Atalanta1 (Mon May 1 2006 12:00:20 )

Good call. I agree. I felt the whole thing about thinking himself too good to go in the family plot was more evidence of this. Mr Twist is a man thwarted by life who took his disappointments and resentments out on those around him those he had power over like so many others of his generation.

Jack was young and had life with all it's opportunities lay ahead of him and Old John Twist was jealous and resentful of that, Jack wasn't afraid of taking chances to get where he wanted to go...another point of contention. Old JOhn 's ranch was a miserable failure as was his rodeo career..Jack had to come home for months at a time to help him because he could not afford help. Jack married money and lived a much "higher" lifestyle than his parents...yet another. Mr and Mrs Twist never left the ranch, not even to go meet their grandson. I don't think Mrs Twist made that choice.

I don't think a sour old misanthrope like John Twist had many friends so yet again even in death his son was showing him up when his friend comes all the way from Riverton, obiviously greiving for Jack and offers to make the trek up on to the Mountain to scatter Jack's ashes. When old John dies the only thing felt will be relief by his wife, unless she goes first and then there will be no one who even cares at all.




by - BannerHill (Mon May 1 2006 12:06:25 )

<<When old John dies the only thing felt will be relief by his wife, unless she goes first and then there will be no one who even cares at all.>>


Exactly!




by - Floyd_RHL (Mon May 1 2006 12:09:06 )

Atalanta1, Great call on every single idea! Projection is the thing you dislike the most in someone which is exactly the same thing you dislike in yourself.




by - HeathandMichelle (Mon May 1 2006 12:21:14 )

IMO, Jack survived because he had an angel of a mom.




by - Atalanta1 (Mon May 1 2006 12:27:46 )

The woman is a saint, worn down by life. She obiviously loves her son and is the reason that he was the bright, fun-loving sparkling soul that he was. She encouraged him in his dreams, comforted him, and loved him.




by - majikstl (Mon May 1 2006 12:39:06 )

I've raised this point on other threads, but it is relevant here as well.

I think the whole point of Ennis going to visit the Twist ranch is so that he can get a glimpse of his possible future, Ennis and Mr. Twist are very much alike: socially and emotionally repressed, locked in poverty, by society's standards they're losers, trapped in unhappy lives. I think those similarities are what draws Jack to Ennis and makes him work so hard to please him -- just as he worked to please his father. But both Ennis and Mr. Twist will only accept things on their terms, they both control their relationships with Jack.

I feel sorry for Mr. Twist. Though he is a mean and cold individual, I suspect that he thought he did the best he could with Jack and is disappointed that Jack couldn't conform to what Twist wanted him to be. I think he resented that Jack left the ranch and resented him even more for coming back again and again to help a little bit -- because he would just leave again and again. That is why he wants to hang on to the ashes. I suspect that Twist made some bad choices early in his life and could never untangle himself. He resented Jack's apparent freedom -- not realizing that Jack had entanglements of his own.

Ennis leaves the Twist ranch with the shirts, a gift from Mrs. Twist that reminds him to cling to those he loves, and a warning from Mr. Twist to not let his life become so empty and joyless.




by - clancypants (Mon May 1 2006 13:02:05 )

majikstl -

You nailed this one 100%! This is the best, most insightful post I've seen in a long time. Simple, concise, yet beautiful in its depth. It goes to the very core of who Ennis is and that's what the story's all about.

Excellent!




by - BannerHill (Mon May 1 2006 13:14:00 )

<Ennis leaves the Twist ranch with the shirts, a gift from Mrs. Twist that reminds him to cling to those he loves, and a warning from Mr. Twist to not let his life become so empty and joyless. <<

Majikstl:

What a great great point. Maybe you're right. Ennis saw himself reflected in Old Twist. That is an amazing insight.




by - Atalanta1 (Mon May 1 2006 13:17:12 )

Good one Majikstl, excellent point yet another subtle subtext in a film rich with them.




by - Floyd_RHL (Mon May 1 2006 13:36:42 )

Majikstl, excellent insight on that one. Do you think Jack was looking for someone who had unconsciously reminded him of his father? With Ennis he would find a closeness that he hadn't had with his own father?

If Ennis learns a lesson while he leaves Lightning Flats, it's not to have a life like Jack's father's. Your insight has allowed me to see that Ennis may be able to live a life with hope.

I apologize for the Q's, by the way.




by - BannerHill (Mon May 1 2006 18:21:19 )

Great observations.

The topic is

Jack Twists father did not necesarily care that his son was gay. He was too consumed with hatred of everything.




by - megapecs2000 (Mon May 1 2006 19:55:33 )

John Twist was beautifully acted in the film. So was Mrs. Twist. I truly have the feeling that they were aware of Jack's bisexuality. John Twist mentioned to Ennis the fact that Jack always talked about the two of them moving to Lightening Flat and whipping the ranch into order. To Ennis's shock, another fellow from TX (we ASSUME to be Randall Malone) was also mentioned by Jack. Jack simply couldn't abandon Lureen and Bobby. I've grown up in the South and growing up gay down here is no bed of roses. I believe that Jack's interaction with Randall might have led to his undoing.

I also believe that there's a great possibility that if Jack and Ennis were to have moved to Lightening Flat, WY, the stay there would hardly have been described as a Honeymoon. We're left to speculate. Annie Proulx wrote her short story in such a way as to inspire this. We, the fans of her work, will doubtless continue to speculate for years to come. Every time we think of Jack and Ennis. The shirts. The beautiful mountain where they met time and again. Were the elder Twists homophobic? I doubt that Mrs. Twist was.

I suspect that John Twist would have had a hard time putting up with Jack and Ennis or Jack and Randall in a cabin on the family ranch. We simply will never know and that's the FUN of Brokeback Mountain!




by - lauragigs (Mon May 1 2006 20:30:08 )
UPDATED Tue May 2 2006 13:30:24

I totally agree that John Twist was a bitter misanthrope. But completely unconcerned with his only son's sexuality?

Jack would have been born around 1944. Even today — 60 years later — a son's homosexuality can be vexing to a father, even if the father considers himself enlightened (recent threads right here are a case in point).

Jack's affection for Bobby (as in the tractor-riding scene) shows he must have been on the receiving end of such affection at an early age too. But things obviously changed at some point. Why, for example, did John not share any of his insights on rodeoing with Jack (insights that can save a rider's life), nor ever come see him ride? (A man is usually pleased when a son follows in his footsteps.)

Also when Jack + Ennis have their first beer together, Ennis makes a comment to the effect that he's all on his own. Jack's question is telling: "Your folks run you off?"

A man of John Twist's generation who is unbothered by his only son's homosexuality would be a rare bird back then — and we already know that John is not the most flexible, open-minded chap.




by - DannyThomas (Mon May 1 2006 21:38:31 )

I feel sorry for Mr. Twist. Though he is a mean and cold individual, I suspect that he thought he did the best he could with Jack and is disappointed that Jack couldn't conform to what Twist wanted him to be.

Are you people crazy? Did you even read the short story? Like the part when Jack's father pissed on Jack as a child when the child made a mess?

Good lord, the father was rancid. Hate-filled. A horrid parent. Deliberately and unforgiveably cruel to his son almost from the get-go. Stop feeling sorry for him.




by - taj_e (Mon May 1 2006 21:49:31 )

someone may have to consider their opinion on Mr. Twist after reading majikstl's post

I think the whole point or rather what drove him to Lightning Flat was the ashes alone and my was he wrong, he got better deal than that!
I'm not sure if Mr. Twist has the pedal on his relationship with Jack. I do believed that he loved his father and accepted him as he is and of course he loved his mother

I understood well why Mr. Twist kept the ashes. After all Jack was their only son. I do believe he would never approved of Jack's sexuality, even if he knew, he could no longer tell Jack on such (and bear in mind he was married to Lureen). Assuming that he knew who Ennis was, if he approved such relationship, he would have given the ashes away

Both Lureen and Mr. Twist thought it was the ashes (Jack's wish). When in fact it was the shirts (known both by Ennis and Mrs. Twist)




by - BannerHill (Mon May 1 2006 21:55:25 )

Well okay, but...

The man was a miserable, hate filled creep. He sucked the life out of anything and anyone around him. Ennis seemed to 'get' him right away, pretty much.

What I am saying is that John Twist was not especially angry over his son being gay. He hated everything. If he had totally hated Jack being gay, Jack would never had told him that he and Ennis were going to whip the ranch into shape. He would not have even tried.




by - crissttigaldames (Mon May 1 2006 21:59:09 )

Hey, Dannythomas, I agree with you. I don't I don't think that Ennis was is any way similar to Jack's father.
And the theme of the thread is interesting, and I do think that all those other reasons may have influenced Mr. Twist's attitude. But in my opinion his saying to Ennis about the "another guy" was meant to hurt him, and the reason for that cannot really be other than his dissaproval of their relationship.
And, of course, as someone else said, a guy borned in the 20's or 30's weould care of his son's sexuality.




by - The_Naked_Librarian (Mon May 1 2006 22:00:15 )

One does have to feel sorry for Mr. Twist, his whole life in ruins from the start. At least Ennis is left with memories of the love Jack and he shared and a memento of the depth of it. Mr. Twist is left only with his son's dry ashes to bury in the earth.




by - BannerHill (Mon May 1 2006 22:03:12 )

....and his own miserable self.




by - majikstl (Mon May 1 2006 22:09:44 )

In the back story that I write in my mind, I don't see either Mr. or Mrs. Twist actually knowing or even seriously considering Jack to be gay. It was just not something that people in that time and place would even want to think about, especially for their only son.

Rather, I suspect, that Jack was something of a momma's boy. I don't see the Twist marriage as being particularly loving and certainly not sexual after a certain point. I think Mrs. Twist gave birth to Jack and that was pretty much the end to there being any real physical relationship between husband and wife. She poured her affection in to taking care of Jack, and that is the source of the animosity between Jack and Mr. Twist. I suspect as a father Mr. Twist resented Jack, but still thought he was doing his best for the boy by trying to toughen him up. But I think that Mr. Twist is just one of those people who didn't know how to love and certainly didn't know how to nurture. There must have been some sort of bond between father and son, because Jack kept going back to the ranch to try to make it better. It is worth noting, I think, that he always talked about going back home to help his father, not his mother. Jack knew he had his mother's love and approval, but he knew he did have his father's, but he kept trying.

But, again, I don't see Jack's homosexuality playing any part in this relationship with his parents. For one thing, if Mr. Twist seriously thought that Jack was gay, I don't think he would have allowed him to return home under circumstances. And I'm not sure if Mrs. Twist would have either. And I don't see Jack ever discussing such things with either parent; indeed, this sexuality is probably the reason he put so much distance between him and his home.




by - taj_e (Mon May 1 2006 22:15:27 )

Jack's mother at least knew. She must have known about the shirt (I don't dare to go further saying Jack told her though)

Mr. Twist must have known the fact that Jack mentioned Ennis and later Randall, to a point divorcing his wife Lureen (for a man?)




by - majikstl (Mon May 1 2006 22:25:19 )

Are you people crazy? Did you even read the short story? Like the part when Jack's father pissed on Jack as a child when the child made a mess?

Good lord, the father was rancid. Hate-filled. A horrid parent. Deliberately and unforgiveably cruel to his son almost from the get-go. Stop feeling sorry for him.

Yeah, I read the short story. But the short story was the short story and this is the movie. The filmmakers opted not to include tales about Jack being abused by his father, so if you wish to see them as part of the story you certainly can. But I can only base my view of the story on what is in the film and admittedly that is left wide open to interpretation. All the film tells us is that Jack and Mr. Twist don't get along and that Twist is a demanding and selfish man. But, we also know two other things. One, Jack still wants to come home to the ranch and create a family with Ennis and Mr. and Mrs. Twist. If his childhood was that horrible, I don't think he would romanticize his homestead in such a way. And two, Mr. Twist just can't let go of Jack's ashes. You can say he is just being mean, if you want; but to me that is a show of a very sad and strange type of affection. Jack has come home and this time Mr. Twist has the power to make him stay.




by - BannerHill (Mon May 1 2006 22:37:57 )

I don't quite get your point, Majikstl.

I have known a couple of mean mean people like John Twist. They are , in my experience, incredibly selfish and self centered.




by - majikstl (Mon May 1 2006 23:07:30 )

I don't quite get your point, Majikstl.

Which point don't you get?

I have known a couple of mean mean people like John Twist. They are , in my experience, incredibly selfish and self centered.

By and large people aren't naturally mean. Something makes them mean. We don't know what made Mr. Twist mean and selfish and self-centered, but somewhere along the line he must have had some good qualities or else Mrs. Twist wouldn't have married him and Jack wouldn't have continued to win his love.




by - BannerHill (Mon May 1 2006 23:19:11 )

<You can say he is just being mean, if you want; but to me that is a show of a very sad and strange type of affection.<<

I didn't understand this sentence. Are you saying that John Twist has affection for Jack and shows it in a wierd way?




by - taj_e (Mon May 1 2006 23:19:43 )

***But, we also know two other things. One, Jack still wants to come home to the ranch and create a family with Ennis and Mr. and Mrs. Twist. If his childhood was that horrible, I don't think he would romanticize his homestead in such a way. And two, Mr. Twist just can't let go of Jack's ashes. You can say he is just being mean, if you want; but to me that is a show of a very sad and strange type of affection. Jack has come home and this time Mr. Twist has the power to make him stay***

Jack's childhood was horrible. No respect from a father is horrible enough. Perhaps Jack is ever fogiving, a loving son to his parents. I've seen this and experienced the same

Mr. Twist 'has the power' simply because, Jack is already dead. But he was wrong, Jack doesn't dwell in ashes. His spirit is released. I may want to consider Jack's name spelt soon after Ennis got the real thing (the shirts) was a strong manifestation of such




by - BannerHill (Mon May 1 2006 23:37:47 )

Are you talking about when the name Jack is spelled out across the screen?




by - taj_e (Mon May 1 2006 23:41:44 )
UPDATED Mon May 1 2006 23:42:53

yes BannerHill
And you may want to read hsuvera post almost similar to this thread

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Re: I don't think Mr Twist cared that his son was gay   
by TheDozyEmbrace 2 days ago (Sat Mar 17 2007 00:27:39 )   
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I don't think Mr Twist cared that his son was gay --- by BannerHill --- 2 of 3



by - freeskate (Mon May 1 2006 23:42:19 )

Jack still wants to come home to the ranch and create a family with Ennis and Mr. and Mrs. Twist.

You don't know that at all. You only know through third party retellings that Jack apparently said on occasion that he wanted to help whip his folks' place into shape. Jack may or may not have said anything of the sort. Third parties are notoriously unreliable.

And Jack said only once that I recall, as he and Ennis said goodbye at the end of the first summer, that he might go back home to help his Daddy. I took that as a fat dream/lie that Jack probably liked to soothe himself with although there probably wasn't a snowball's chance in hell.

What we DO know, because we heard it first hand, was when Jack talked directly to Ennis, he did NOT say that. He only suggested they could get a place together and have a "little cow 'n calf operation" and it would be a real sweet life. Nothing about bringing Ennis to his childhood home. All the other through-the-grapevine talk about Jack wanting to move back home with anybody else is as unreliable as they come. I suspect Jack may have said such things on an ongoing basis to his dear mother whom he loved very much just to make her feel good and keep her hopes up and help her get through her miserable isolated life, but I have no doubt that Jack never said anything to his god-awful father about coming back home to live. With or without anyone else. Ever. Nothin'.




by - majikstl (Tue May 2 2006 02:01:20 )

<You can say he is just being mean, if you want; but to me that is a show of a very sad and strange type of affection.<<

I didn't understand this sentence. Are you saying that John Twist has affection for Jack and shows it in a wierd way?

I'm saying that I think that wanting to have Jack's ashes buried in the family plot is Mr. Twist's way of saying he loves Jack. He wants his remains to be close at home. I don't think that his wanting to keep them and not have them spread around on Brokeback Mountain was simply an act of meanness. Though he may have used his possession of the ashes as a way of hurting Ennis, that was a secondary act, since he apparently had already decided to keep the ashes. If he hated Jack as some have suggested, I don't think he would have cared one way or the other what would become of the ashes. While it is possible that Mr. Twist wanted to keep the ashes as some sort of final spiteful act against Jack, I don't think the animosity between the two was that deep or that twisted.




by - majikstl (Tue May 2 2006 02:18:55 )

Jack's childhood was horrible. No respect from a father is horrible enough. Perhaps Jack is ever fogiving, a loving son to his parents. I've seen this and experienced the same

I'm not saying that Jack had a blissful childhood, because obviously he didn't. Mr. Twist was apparently not a nice person at all and Jack was raised in a world of dirt poor poverty. But just how "horrible" it was is open to speculation. Setting aside the original short story, we learn very little about Mr. Twist beyond what Jacks tells us and that is that he is a demanding, hard to please man, who gives Jack very little support and probably shows him little affection. And most of what we are told comes from a 19-year-old Jack who is trying to be independent of his parents -- and 19-year-olds seldom have an unbiased opinion of their parents. Yet, despite their differences, Jack keeps going back home, even after he estabishes a home and family in Texas. Now apparently these are not happy reunions, but something makes Jack return home and apparently he plans his visits with Ennis to include a visit to the ranch before heading back to Texas. And I don't see Jack as the masochistic type, so the ranch and his family must hold some kinda of happy memories that override the bad.




by - taj_e (Tue May 2 2006 02:37:02 )

***I'm saying that I think that wanting to have Jack's ashes buried in the family plot is Mr. Twist's way of saying he loves Jack. He wants his remains to be close at home. I don't think that his wanting to keep them and not have them spread around on Brokeback Mountain was simply an act of meanness***

Good point there majikstl
However there's a different view posted by another at this thread
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/flat/42181604

It was an ole mean John Twist




by - gduch2001 (Tue May 2 2006 03:01:04 )

I would imagine that he guessed, didn't wnat to know too much, and disapproved but it was only one of the many things that he disapproved of in Jack...




by - majikstl (Tue May 2 2006 03:14:03 )

You don't know that at all. You only know through third party retellings that Jack apparently said on occasion that he wanted to help whip his folks' place into shape. Jack may or may not have said anything of the sort. Third parties are notoriously unreliable.

So you think Mr. Twist was lying when he said that Jack wanted Ennis to help him fix up the ranch. Possible, but I don't see the point of doing so.

And Jack said only once that I recall, as he and Ennis said goodbye at the end of the first summer, that he might go back home to help his Daddy. I took that as a fat dream/lie that Jack probably liked to soothe himself with although there probably wasn't a snowball's chance in hell.

I watched the DVD again, and I believe he said it at least twice; once when they separate for the first time and again when they separate the final time. Also when Mr. Twist talks about Jack's plan to whip the place into shape, the clear implication is that Jack said it more than once. I suspect that Mr. Twist's animosity toward Ennis is based on a jealousy from having Jack brag about his friendship with Ennis repeatedly. It is obvious to me anyway that Jack had made irregular visits to the Twist ranch and logically those visits would coincide with his visits with Ennis.

What we DO know, because we heard it first hand, was when Jack talked directly to Ennis, he did NOT say that. He only suggested they could get a place together and have a "little cow 'n calf operation" and it would be a real sweet life. Nothing about bringing Ennis to his childhood home. All the other through-the-grapevine talk about Jack wanting to move back home with anybody else is as unreliable as they come. I suspect Jack may have said such things on an ongoing basis to his dear mother whom he loved very much just to make her feel good and keep her hopes up and help her get through her miserable isolated life, but I have no doubt that Jack never said anything to his god-awful father about coming back home to live. With or without anyone else. Ever. Nothin'.

Jack may or may not have discussed moving to Lightning Flats with Ennis, and quite probably he didn't, because Ennis would never let the topic go beyond generalities. But I fail to see why Mr. Twist would make up such a lie on the spur of the moment. I don't think Mr. Twist is a nice man, but I can't see why he wouldn't tell the truth, especially if he wanted to hurt Ennis because this truth would be so much more painful. I stand by my assumption that Jack's dream -- no matter how impractical or illogical -- was to return to his home with Ennis and share his life with him and his parents. And he wouldn't want to do that if his childhood was unbareably painful.




by - taj_e (Tue May 2 2006 03:19:10 )

***And he wouldn't want to do that if his childhood was unbareably painful***
Or simply he had come to terms with his dad, or for the sake of his mother (although I would prefer the former). Jack, must have learnt to forgive long ago




by - majikstl (Tue May 2 2006 06:12:54 )

taj_e: Good point there majikstl
However there's a different view posted by another at this thread
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/flat/42181604

Yeah, I read that thread, though I didn't bother to comment. I disagreed with the OP's notion that Mr. and Mrs. Twist knew about Jack's being gay and about his relationship with Ennis. Plus the post seemed to misread the entire tone of the scene with Ennis being on the verge of tears and everybody being intensely melodramatic. The whole scene was far more subtle that the post suggests. I disagreed with so much in the post that I just moved on.




by - The_Naked_Librarian (Tue May 2 2006 06:12:56 )
UPDATED Tue May 2 2006 06:19:43

It's that line, "Tell you what, I know where Brokeback Mountain is," that sticks in my head. What does it really mean? Is he saying he understands just what kind of relationship his son had with Ennis? Is the line even possibly supposed to give us a clue (not intended as such by Mr. Twist) that perhaps Mr. Twist himself is gay? Same cold marriage as his son, possibly the same reason for it, a son conceived out of wedlock. If so, then Mr. Twist is, well, just a twisted version of Jack, what Jack--or Ennis--might have become if they hadn't found each other, what might happen to any of us if we deny ourselves love. And just maybe Mr. Twist in some crazy way understands this--he doesn't have much else to do in his life but dwell on these things--and resents them for it, resents the happiness they found in one another, leaving him all alone. And just possibly this is another reason why Ennis finally gets up the courage to go to his daughter's wedding.

I keep saying "possibly," because I think the moviemakers deliberately left so much ambiguous. Having a definitive answer to questions brought up by the movie is beside the point. It's the questions themselves that contain the meaning. It's obvious reading so many of the posts on this board that the ambiguities lodge in our selves and disturb us and make us question our own lives, which is what makes the movie so powerful.




by - taj_e (Tue May 2 2006 06:25:22 )

This was my comments on the OP's post...

I think you have just described how brutal and harsh Mr. Twist had been towards Ennis. He didn't just slap Ennis he hurt Jack as well. Belittling Jack, downgraded him to 'dreamy boy' a loser so to speak
And in his angry and disgusted eyes, I see him laughing the fact that Ennis fell in love with Jack

And I'm glad Mrs. Twist was there, to comfort and of course Ennis finding the shirts.

Perhaps the fact that Ennis managed to push his way through 'Mr. Twist' speaks volumes, the hope to come for Ennis (And I hope, the like of Mrs. Twist, Alma Jr's and of course Jack's love will be there as well)

He couldn't push his way through the bear, Aguirre but he did with Mr. Twist




by - BannerHill (Tue May 2 2006 08:07:08 )

>>It's that line, "Tell you what, I know where Brokeback Mountain is," that sticks in my head. What does it really mean? Is he saying he understands just what kind of relationship his son had with Ennis? Is the line even possibly supposed to give us a clue (not intended as such by Mr. Twist) that perhaps Mr. Twist himself is gay? <<

Good point, Naked. It is a very powerful line. Can yo hear the anger coming through?

It almost had the feel of " I don't need to hear your version of events. I know everything" Almost as if he was taliking to Jack directly.

This line can be interpreted many ways. Sadly, I think John is talking about the 'fantasy' life that Jack lived in, as opposed to the 'real' world that John lived in.

And yes, it would be in keeping if John had had a Brokeback Mountain of his own, once.




by - taj_e (Tue May 2 2006 08:31:08 )

Naked, interesting POV




by - majikstl (Tue May 2 2006 09:04:33 )

It's that line, "Tell you what, I know where Brokeback Mountain is," that sticks in my head.

Yeah, that line really sticks out. In another movie, it could be "I know where Hollywood is." or "I know were New York is." In any case, it is not a place, so much as an idea or a dream. I bet that first visit back to the ranch, after Jack's Brokeback summer, is when Mr. Twist realized he had lost his son for good. Jack probably was jabbering about being on Brokeback Mountain with Ennis and that's when both Twist and Jack realized that the ranch was not his home anymore. I still think that they held on to the notion that Jack would return permanently, but the reality was that Jack grew up that summer. And on some level, I think Mr. Twist blamed Ennis for leading his son astray. Ennis became Jack's real goal in life, and along the way, almost unconsciously, he built himself a real life in Texas. With everything except Ennis. That's why Mr. Twist resents Ennis so much; he was the catalyst that changed Jack from a boy to a man.

Brokeback Mountain is probably just a few miles away from Lightning Flats, but a world away from Mr. Twist's sad little world. His son went there and never really came back.

Then Ennis comes to Lightning Flats and wants so take Jack away again, to Brokeback Mountain again.




by - taj_e (Tue May 2 2006 09:16:50 )
UPDATED Tue May 2 2006 09:22:21

This is how cold and mean John Twist was...

***How cruel and cold Jack's father slapped Ennis by his words. In the film we see Ennis facial expression: Ennis was a bit of light up when Jack's father spoke about he knew where Brokeback Mountain is and his son mentioned the name "Ennis de Mar" for twenty years, but this spring Jack told him the other guy to bring with***

Almost saying, 'I know WHAT Brokeback Mountain is' and 'It wasn't just the two of you' 'Jack had Randall then' 'Jack was dreaming of something that never will happened' (almost an echo to Lureen's earlier version of BBM)

We saw Ennis put a forced smile and later nearly broke down (I think this was when Lee initially wanted to put another 'images' on Ennis's mind) and quickly we saw, a loving hand of Mrs. Twist, tenderly placed on Ennis's shoulder. For comfort and love

Later 'Jack's ashes isn't going anywhere' and we see Mrs. Twist's hand placed on her neck. John Twist thought he had hurt Ennis badly (which he did), but didn't know that Ennis (and Mrs. Twist) had managed to fulfill Jack's real wish, the shirts. The ashes doesn't matter anymore...




by - BannerHill (Tue May 2 2006 09:39:28 )

> John Twist thought he had hurt Ennis badly (which he did), but didn't know that Ennis (and Mrs. Twist) had managed to fulfill Jack's real wish, the shirts. The ashes doesn't matter anymore...<

Oh wow. I hadn't thought of it that way...

when you think about it, Jack's desire to have his ashes spread on Brokeback Mountian really says it all. That, combined with the shirts is an emotional wallop to Ennis




by - MerryJoe_Moles (Tue May 2 2006 12:30:24 )

I stand by my assumption that Jack's dream -- no matter how impractical or illogical -- was to return to his home with Ennis and share his life with him and his parents. And he wouldn't want to do that if his childhood was unbareably painful.

You don't understand the psychology of human abuse victims.




by - majikstl (Tue May 2 2006 13:26:26 )

MerryJoe: You don't understand the psychology of human abuse victims.

Please elaborate. Tell me how Jack's behavior through out the movie showed him to be a victim of childhood abuse. Don't get me wrong, I've never argued that Jack's childhood was particularly happy, and his eager-to-please nature may even extent from a lack of loving nurturing by his emotionally impaired father. But overall, Jack seems to be a fairly well adjusted man. Indeed, if anybody's demeanor suggests an abusive childhood that would be Ennis -- and I mean more than just his father's little lesson in homosexuality and its consequenses. The assumption that Mr. Twist was an abusive parent stems from his depiction in the short story -- and you are certainly welcome to accept that. But from what little the filmmakers tell us about Jack and his father in the movie, I don't think accusations of severe abuse are indicated. If Jack is emotionally scarred by his father, then he keeps it very well hidden and under control -- and the filmmakers opted not to deal with it all. However, his need to win his father's approval and/or love is hardly a rare impluse, especially in a strained relationship where both men are living repressed and private lives.

And as far as I can see, Jack's willingness to keep returning to the ranch and his plans to "whip it into shape" suggest that he thought that whatever trauma his childhood brought him, it was not beyond repair. And I don't see that in the film as desperation, but has hope.




by - smj274 (Tue May 2 2006 13:32:02 )

"I feel sorry for Mr. Twist. Though he is a mean and cold individual, I suspect that he thought he did the best he could with Jack and is disappointed that Jack couldn't conform to what Twist wanted him to be.

Are you people crazy? Did you even read the short story? Like the part when Jack's father pissed on Jack as a child when the child made a mess?

Good lord, the father was rancid. Hate-filled. A horrid parent. Deliberately and unforgiveably cruel to his son almost from the get-go. Stop feeling sorry for him. "

... ... ... ...

ok, so i couldn't quite figure out why i didn't really agree with the post about ennis and mr. twist being the same...and this post helped me put a finger on it.

to say that ennis and john are the same is to, in some way, say that ennis 'was a rancid, hate-filled, horrid parent' who was 'deliberately and unforgiveably cruel'. i don't care how else they relate, it is this point that makes them in no way the same...for it is his love for the children that stop ennis from being with jack.

"I think the whole point of Ennis going to visit the Twist ranch is so that he can get a glimpse of his possible future, Ennis and Mr. Twist are very much alike: socially and emotionally repressed, locked in poverty, by society's standards they're losers, trapped in unhappy lives. I think those similarities are what draws Jack to Ennis and makes him work so hard to please him -- just as he worked to please his father. But both Ennis and Mr. Twist will only accept things on their terms, they both control their relationships with Jack."--majikstl

ennis' situation is in no way like john's for john has created his with free will and ennis' is brought about because society has forced him to create his. ennis is forced to control his relationship with jack and john chooses to be forceful and controlling.

i don't really have time to write down all the thoughts i have (is the end of the school year and i have grading up the wazoo), but i can't be the only one who disagrees and cringes at the mere mention of john twist and ennis del mar being the same or even remotely similar. am i?

[TOoP/Bruce]

I don't think Mr Twist cared that his son was gay --- by BannerHill --- 3 of 3

by - smj274 (Tue May 2 2006 13:40:51 )

"The filmmakers opted not to include tales about Jack being abused by his father, so if you wish to see them as part of the story you certainly can. But I can only base my view of the story on what is in the film and admittedly that is left wide open to interpretation"

***not so much...if we look at the way in which john twist act...the reason that scene is not included is because we don't need to see IT to know...we see john...something that we can't do when reading the ss...we have to see through reading about john...

"If his childhood was that horrible, I don't think he would romanticize his homestead in such a way."

***of course,he would...you said it yourself, '[jack] worked to please his father'

"You can say he is just being mean, if you want; but to me that is a show of a very sad and strange type of affection."

***true, but it doesn't make him any less mean...


by - smj274 (Tue May 2 2006 13:45:18 )

now, that's something i can totally agree with...


by - majikstl (Tue May 2 2006 14:16:55 )

mj274ok, so i couldn't quite figure out why i didn't really agree with the post about ennis and mr. twist being the same...and this post helped me put a finger on it.

to say that ennis and john are the same is to, in some way, say that ennis 'was a rancid, hate-filled, horrid parent' who was 'deliberately and unforgiveably cruel'. i don't care how else they relate, it is this point that makes them in no way the same...for it is his love for the children that stop ennis from being with jack.

Not the "same", but alike. I never said anything about Ennis being 'deliberately and unforgiveably cruel' or any other such nonsense. Obviously they live their lives differently. But Ennis is like Mr. Twist in that he is emotionally guarded and socially stunted. He has no feeling of self-worth and lives a small, simple life that is trapped in fear and perpetuates his failure. And to some extent he is emotionally abusive to Jack, making Jack conform to his needs and his paranoia. There is a parallel between how Jack is placed at the service of both men and how both men demand that Jack live by their rules.

ennis' situation is in no way like john's for john has created his with free will and ennis' is brought about because society has forced him to create his. ennis is forced to control his relationship with jack and john chooses to be forceful and controlling.

You have no way of knowing this. To assume that John Twist chose to be a mean and hate-filled old man is silly. Something changed him and something scarred him to the point he enforced that bitterness on others. For all we know, Mr. Twist might have been an abused child or maybe he himself has been living in the closet for years. We don't know. But to assume that his controlling and demanding nature was an act of free will, while Ennis' similar behavior was forced upon him doesn't make sense. And since Ennis surely loves Jack more than Mr. Twist ever could, than his domination of Jack's love is, in some respect, worse than Twist's. Certainly Jack's need to please Ennis is stronger than his desire to please his father.

My point was and is that Mr. Twist is what Ennis could easily become if he let his bitterness and his selfishness continue. It is like Scrooge seeing Christmas future. Jack couldn't change his father and apparently couldn't change Ennis. But Ennis can change himself.

I think meeting Mr. Twist was an epiphany for Ennis. Mr. Twist lost Jack and all he has left is a box of ashes, a symbol of death. Ennis gets the shirts, stained with blood, the symbol of life, and is given another chance in life.


by - BannerHill (Tue May 2 2006 14:29:41 )

>I think meeting Mr. Twist was an epiphany for Ennis. Mr. Twist lost Jack and all he has left is a box of ashes, a symbol of death. Ennis gets the shirts, stained with blood, the symbol of life, and is given another chance in life.<

I had never given so much thought to this scene....until now.


by - majikstl (Tue May 2 2006 14:51:17 )

smj274:
"You can say he is just being mean, if you want; but to me that is a show of a very sad and strange type of affection."

***true, but it doesn't make him any less mean...

On that we can agree.

Look, I'm not trying to paint old man Twist as some sort of misunderstood saint. I only wish to base my opinion on what is in the movie and what I can logically infer. And what I see in Mr. Twist is a sad, embittered old man living in the sparse remains of his wasted life. And he may, indeed, have been a monster, but if Jack couldn't see him that way, then -- without any other evidence in the film -- neither can I. We see Jack as a free spirit, a man with the mind of his own, despite all of his entanglements, yet he still comes home and makes plans for the Lightning Flats ranch. And not because he is enslaved by it, but because he wants it to be part of his life.


by - cheriberry (Tue May 2 2006 16:58:03 )

But overall, Jack seems to be a fairly well adjusted man. Indeed, if anybody's demeanor suggests an abusive childhood that would be Ennis

As the man said, you obviously don't understand the classic behavioral manifestations (and/or lack thereof) in childhood abuse victims. Especially when the abuse was at the hands of a parent.

Quit while you're behind.


by - cheriberry (Tue May 2 2006 16:59:38 )

but if Jack couldn't see him that way, then -- without any other evidence in the film -- neither can I.

You just don't get it, do you?


by - majikstl (Tue May 2 2006 17:36:38 )

As the man said, you obviously don't understand the classic behavioral manifestations (and/or lack thereof) in childhood abuse victims. Especially when the abuse was at the hands of a parent.

Quit while you're behind.

You just don't get it, do you?

Then enlighten me. Don't just disagree, explain. I'm listening.


by - taj_e (Wed May 3 2006 12:44:11 )

***But I fail to see why Mr. Twist would make up such a lie on the spur of the moment. I don't think Mr. Twist is a nice man, but I can't see why he wouldn't tell the truth, especially if he wanted to hurt Ennis because this truth would be so much more painful. I stand by my assumption that Jack's dream -- no matter how impractical or illogical -- was to return to his home with Ennis and share his life with him and his parents. And he wouldn't want to do that if his childhood was unbareably painful***

majikstl
I guess what's hard to accept was, your post on Jack's childhood although bad wasn't enough to be called 'unbearable'. Hence all the mention on child abuse/psychology etc

But you are right about Mr. Twist telling the truth. He wasn't just telling the truth, he denied Jack's 'wish' directly hurting Ennis. Ennis was slapped twice there

And this one as well...
***I think meeting Mr. Twist was an epiphany for Ennis. Mr. Twist lost Jack and all he has left is a box of ashes, a symbol of death. Ennis gets the shirts, stained with blood, the symbol of life, and is given another chance in life***

I can think of the phrase 'washed in blood' similar to the symbolism of Christ's blood washed over us (although it was Ennis's own blood)

by - majikstl (Wed May 3 2006 13:46:40 )

Me: I stand by my assumption that Jack's dream -- no matter how impractical or illogical -- was to return to his home with Ennis and share his life with him and his parents.

I've been thinking about this and it occurred to me that even though Jack wanted Ennis to somehow become part of the ranch at Lightning Flats, he apparently made no attempt to unite his Texas family with his own parents. I got the impression that the Twists never met their grandson and from the way Lureen talked, she never met Mr. and Mrs. Twist. Of course, I could be wrong, but I recall nothing in the film that would suggest otherwise. Apparently, Jack talked a lot about Ennis when he visited his parents, but I wonder if he ever talked much about Lureen and Bobby. It's been mentioned on other boards that apparently Jack hadn't been helping the Twists financially, though it would be hard to tell; but you would think that the Twist home would have Jack's wedding picture somewhere visible, or at least a picture of the Twists' only grandchild.

It's like Jack wants acceptance of Ennis by his parents, even if as just a friend, but he keeps his Texas family separate, like they really aren't part of his family at all.


by - BannerHill (Wed May 3 2006 18:15:28 )
UPDATED Fri May 12 2006 08:11:41

I still don't think that Jack Twist especially hated his son being gay. He was an equal opportunity hater; he hated everything .


by - taj_e (Wed May 3 2006 19:31:20 )

I always thought Ennis's visit was like a son-in-law's visit or rather another son they should have and accept

And I find it cold of Lureen when she said 'they will live there till they die'
You maybe right about Jack's other family never really met his parents. Further suggesting perhaps the parents knew about Jack's sexuality (the other was indirectly telling them he will divorce Lureen for Randall and of course about Ennis earlier)


by - majikstl (Wed May 3 2006 22:02:41 )

taj e: 'they will live there till they die'

You know, I forgot about that line and the way that Lureen said it. Makes me wonder if maybe Jack had tried to get his folks to visit Texas and they just refused. If I remember right, Lureen sounded just a little bit insulted when she said it. Certainly, I can't see Lureen going to Wyoming to meet them. Jack seemed to have three different worlds he straddles and he just couldn't get any of them to meet. He had to spread being a husband, son and lover among all these very stubborn people, all of whom wanted something from him. The more I think about it, the more I realize that Ennis was the more complicated character, but Jack lived the more complicated life.


by - taj_e (Thu May 4 2006 05:22:11 )

***The more I think about it, the more I realize that Ennis was the more complicated character, but Jack lived the more complicated life***

Agree majikstl
Weird was...
With Jack, things seems to work 'right' with him however none was his plan, a complicated life of his

While Ennis surrounded by many people that really loves him, as complicated and 'misunderstood' (Cassie said, I don't get you Ennis del Mar) his character was

All they wanted was to love each other as what they had in BBM
Perhaps, 'money can't buy me love' 'one doesn't fall in love with fun' rings a bell


by - terryhall2 3 days ago (Wed May 17 2006 23:20:34 )

I don't think he would even have been aware his son was gay. He was bitter because Jack didn't bring any help up to the ranch like he kept promising.
He didn't think much of Jack anyway, no matter how hard Jack tried to please him.


by - WLH-V 3 days ago (Thu May 18 2006 01:21:43 )

Ironically, Mr. Thomas, U sound similiar to Mr. Twist.
Ur rude ranting "R U People crazy" sounds worse.


by - clancypants 1 day ago (Fri May 19 2006 20:09:13 )
UPDATED Sat May 20 2006 08:11:41

majikstl said:

"The more I think about it, the more I realize that Ennis was the more complicated character, but Jack lived the more complicated life."

Agreed.

Ennis kept his life uncluttered. He kept around what he needed to keep around. This helped to make his life less complicated. But Ennis also cluttered up other people's lives and thus made their lives more complicated -- Jack certainly being one of them, but also Lureen by extension through Jack; and Alma.

And don’t expect to hear any little word from Danny Thomas/freeskate/MerryJoe/cherriberry… they’re all the same person and they ONLY come to this board to plop out a derisive comment and then run away without giving any explanation or any reasoning or any evidence. You just have to accept what this guy says as true or woe be unto you. He is clueless as to what this film is about. He’ll NEVER discuss anything with anyone. All he ever does is make comments that say “Oh, you stupid fool, let me tell you how it is…” Clueless, sad, and pathetic.