Jack and Ennis's Relgious Talk
by - the_snake152 (Wed Feb 15 2006 20:06:04 )
I noticed this at my second viewing of the movie, it is a first sign that they both are into one another, when they are talking about religion and Ennis asked Jack what the "Penecost" is, and Jack said something to the extent of "they believe people like us are going to hell", did anyone else catch that?
Re: Jack and Ennis's Relgious Talk
by - carmenjonze-1 (Wed Feb 15 2006 20:18:46 )
yes, i did.
i think it's too bad they left that hanging, that's not really a part of what "pentecost" means. but you probably already know that.
__
I've heard it all before, I've heard it all before, I've heard it all before.
--Madonna
Re: Jack and Ennis's Relgious Talk
by - valerie_lp (Wed Feb 15 2006 21:47:41 )
There have been some pretty compelling arguments that they are "into each other" long before that...even at the first moment they met.
Re: Jack and Ennis's Relgious Talk
by - laxdoctor (Wed Feb 15 2006 22:09:00 )
I think it's just a good bit of dialogue that sprang up naturally as Jack exultantly (though very off key) sang his mother's favourite hymn, "Water Walking Jesus". Out of that came his recollection that his mother believed in the Pentecost, immediately followed by his acute awareness that he didn't have a clue what the Pentecost is. When Ennis asked him ("I mean, my folks were Methodists", chuckle!), he says that he guesses it's when the world comes to an end and fellows like them march off to hell. Ennis shows a bit of dry humour when with a wry grin he tells Jack to speak for himself: "You may be a sinner but I have yet to have the opportunity." Good little scene. Just lets us see them getting connected a bit, friendly, more open. The screenplay doesn't have Ennis tapping on the metal rod with a twig to give a bit of percussive emphasis on the last few notes of Jack's song. That's Heath Ledger's ad lib, and it's a good touch. When I read the screenplay I noticed quite a few places where Ledger obviously changed a few words or facial expressions to make the scenes work better. Great lead acting performance in all respects.
Re: Jack and Ennis's Relgious Talk
by - delalluvia (Wed Feb 15 2006 22:13:53 )
Yes, they were way into each other before this scene. But it's a sweet scene. It kinda rounds out the idea that the guys pretty much discuss everything with each other. Even when they acknowledge they don't know much about what they're talking about - both young men brought up in rural America by Christian parents - but don't know much about it.
I wasn't sure what Ennis was doing tapping the twig on the coffeepot. I thought he was using the tapping to 'clap' his approval of Jack's singing. Which wasn't very good, but by that time, a smitten Ennis would have thought Jack reading the phone book was 'high class entertainment'.
Team Jolie
What I gleaned from the religion discussion (spoilers)
by - Tahhh (Mon Feb 20 2006 17:24:36 )
I was under the impression that the real purport of this discussion was that Ennis took this opportunity to inform his new friend Jack that he had never engaged in sexual intercourse with anyone, i.e., that he was still a virgin.
I took it as an indication that he (Ennis) already felt in danger because of how very drawn he was beginning to feel to the young man sharing his life in this isolated place, and how, in spite of his very gruff manner, Ennis actually feels a bit childish and naive around the more worldly rodeo cowboy.
I think part of the problem is that although both actors did a beautiful job of convincing me of how young they are, nowadays, people get so hysterical about adolescent sexual behavior that the film-makers had to tone down the fact that we are dealing with what are, after all, mere adolescent boys--one of whom, although he plans to marry, young, as would be typical in his rural, lower-class world--is really totally naive, sexually. Listening to the scene again, and reminding oneself that we are hearing a conversation between two teenage boys, helps bring the real purpose of the scene into focus.
Whether or not this is also the case with Jack is not clear: evidently, Ennis thinks Jack is much more experienced: "Speak for yourself about being a sinner, Jack: Personally, I have not yet even had the opportunity to sin--i.e., I have never had sex, as you clearly have."
And now that I think about it a bit, it occurs to me that Jack, who, throughout the film, seems much more inclined to sexual experimentation than Ennis, probably is NOT doing this for the first time: I find it inconceivable that a fellow his age, having never been penetrated before, would so readily and easily receive it, without hesitation or concern about possible pain--even if it were something that he had come to desire.
Later in the film, we see this tension between the more worldly nature of Jack and the more naive, provincial nature of Ennis hiss forth in a ferocious attack, when, in order to wound Ennis's feelings, Jack admits to seeking surreptitious and dirty satisfaction in Mexico, an enormous contrast to the boyish shyness of Ennis when a beautiful, sexy girl practically throws herself at him in a bar.
If I'm not mistaken, by the way, even though Ennis and Jack do not seem to know this, the Pentecostal church movement was a "split-off" church from the Methodists, so, in a way, Jack is more "advanced" in that respect, too, and Ennis is more conservative. However, I doubt if this was in the mind of any of the writers of the story.
As they grow older, Jack becomes more and more sophisticated, in many ways, and Ennis remains a very, very naive, simple, rural fellow. Quite honestly, I'm not really so certain that the dream of a happy life together which Jack has is actually a realistic possibility, even without the fears the two men have of breaking with the societal norms: I think that, in time, Jack would have found Ennis's naivete and simplicity trying, and Ennis would have gotten exasperated with Jack's over-adventurous and incautious risk-taking.
I must say that the more I consider some of the points raised in discussion on this board, the better and better I am beginning to like the film.
Re: Jack and Ennis's Relgious Talk
by - ayang71 (Mon Feb 20 2006 23:23:50 )
yes, I noticed that change, too. I think actually, Ennis knew Jake was into him, or even have expeiences with men...
Re: Jack and Ennis's Relgious Talk
by - reannawrites (Fri Mar 17 2006 13:50:52 )
I think it shows that Ennis and Jack can talk about anything under the sun, including religion, just because they are so at ease with each other. You hardly ever see Ennis and Alma or Jack and Lureen share the same sort of ease while speaking.
Re: Jack and Ennis's Relgious Talk
by - moonjammer (Fri Mar 17 2006 13:58:01 )
UPDATED Fri Mar 17 2006 13:58:29
I think it means all Christians are going to hell if they don't wake up.
Keep bending me until I am completely broken!
Re: Jack and Ennis's Relgious Talk
by - strawbs04 (Sun Mar 19 2006 22:34:28 )
They are definatly into eachother way before that. Jack's flirting with Ennis and showing him the belt buckle, but there's a really suttle and beautiful illustration of their attraction before that. There's a scene when Jack is still spending the nights with the sheep, and he looks over at the camp-site where Ennis is and gives a look of longing. There's a reciprocated scene were after Jack leaves the camp and Ennis watches him ride up the mountain and gives a very similar look. It's very sad, and hardly anyone catches it.
Watch for it the next time you watch it.
Re: Jack and Ennis's Relgious Talk
by - kirkmusic (Sun Mar 19 2006 22:47:25 )
Hardly the first sign. Jack's attraction was apparent from the moment they met. Before that even. When he's shaving in his side mirror he's stealing glances at Ennis intermittently. Then in the bar there was this dialogue...
Jack: You from ranch people?
Ennis: Yeah, was.
Jack: Your folks run you off? (subtext: because you're gay?)
Jack was trying to get to the heart of the matter from the very beginning. So many of the people who don't like this movie, who complain that the relationship was underdeveloped or happened too suddenly, they missed all of that. It was all there though.
Re: Jack and Ennis's Relgious Talk (REPOST)
by JockoWilson (Thu Mar 1 2007 20:09:23 )
Wonderful, wonderful posts TOoP!
I can't believe this was posted already almost a year ago, I hope my posts will live on for ever 2, just like the story of Jack & Ennis.
Do NOT look at my profile!!
