by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Feb 25 2006 15:14:34 )
Flickfan-3:
Terrific to have another enlightening discussion with you.
I'm moved by all of your post, and I sense we're in agreement over the significance of the eviscerated sheep.
But, I'm going to hold to my thought that there are two different coyote killings - the first happens the day Ennis comes back from the herd camp, mentioning the shooting of a coyote with 'balls the size of apples', and enacting his bathing-scene.
I'm positive that it is a second coyote which is hoisted up in another sheep-herd location, later in the film. We as the audience see Ennis, Jack and the herd moving to higher ground and this is where the hoisted coyote carcass is desplayed. We know Ennis shot and killed another one, since we've heard him speak of the first 'hit' and know that Jack is not capable of hitting one.
I'm convinced that this second coyote carcass is meant to be considered as not just a warning emblem within the sheep-herd, but also a potent token of Ennis asuaging and triumphing over his confused feelings - hence the admission-'one shot thing' dialogue with Jack immediately following.
Re: coyote killings
by - RobertPlant (Sat Feb 25 2006 15:21:11 )
http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/9492/schermata10xh.png two coyotes on this pole. We see it after the dead ship scene and the Jack washing the shirts scene...
I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly
Re: coyote killings
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Feb 25 2006 15:27:21 )
UPDATED Sat Feb 25 2006 15:38:47
Robert Plant:
Thanks for the image from the film.
I'm always so mesmerized by the weight of the events ocurring in the story at that point that I've failed to see that there might have been two coyote hides. The image you've posted is a little dim so I can't quite make out clearly that there are two, but I'll take your word for it.
And add the following from a response to Ellemeno and henrypie about the same subject which I've borrowed from the latter's Garden of Eden Symbolism thread:
More Biblical symbolism from Numbers 21:7-9 relates to this as Moses interceded in a plague of biting serpents, lifted up a fiery serpent in the wilderness and set it on a standard to cure the children of Israel of their fear. Much as Ennis shoots the coyote [maybe even the same one that Jack missed?] and hoists it as a symbol of his ridding himself and Jack of the cursed image of the gutted sheep [to be related later in the film to the shot of the mutilated body of Earl].
Re: coyote killings Lee's idea
by - Flickfan-3 (Sat Feb 25 2006 22:04:11 )
Casey
I looked at the photo Robertplant linked to and agree that the photo seems to show two separate skins...I never thought Jack was responsible for any killing--that inability is part of his "persona"--he can't kill anything, even his love for Ennis...I thought the screenplay in the new edition with writers' essays might be some help with one/two coyotes but there is no mention of the shot of the coyote pelt-banner at all...just Ennis's boast to Jack about killing one...so this device seems one of the changes Lee brought to the shooting script...just like making blue the color of Jack's first pickup instead of Proulx's green...
I guess I am surprised that it was Lee whose only exposure to coyotes would have come from American films who added it with its layers of symbolism instead of McMurtry or Proulx who have deep personal knowledge about the West yet did not think to use the coyote pelt since it is fairly common superstition/folk lore--if you kill a predator, you leave its body there to show/warn/scare off others of that ilk--For example, if you kill a rattlesnake, you leave the body there to warn off its mate since rattlesnakes always travel in pairs...
I would really like a script copy that has three colors, coded to Proulx, McMurtry/Ossana, or Lee, indicating the source of the material...we know that more than half of the script is basically pure Proulx, some definitely the screenwriters' input, and some like this of the coyote warning flag I guess to be Lee's input...I would assume that Lee's input would be mainly in visual imagery and set blocking...it was only Lee's moving the motel scene's dialogue to the later reunion that I have heard Proulx really objected to since McMurtry/Ossana must have left that scene mostly intact in their early drafts...sorry some of this wandered off topic
"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."
Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
by - jkingqm-1 (Sun Feb 26 2006 02:28:08 )
Thank you for starting this thread on the camera move in the lake scene. I loved it the first time I saw it! Another great cinematography piece of work happens at the Fourth of July picnic. A low camera shot shows Ennis prodominately in the left frame, sobbing wife and kids in the lower right, with fireworks going off overhead. OMG, great cinematography!!!! (If there is not a thread on this shot then please cut and paste this reply to start a new one).
I didn't get to read all of this thread (I already spend too much time reading too many good BBM forums like this :-p), BUT, in this thread a discussion was started about "moon" shots. Did anyone else but me notice that in the scene when Jack meets a trick in Mexico in the dark alley, that the streetlight looked like a crescent moon?
Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
by - jkingqm-1 (Sun Feb 26 2006 03:51:00 )
CaseyCornelius said:
"I do find it striking that the shot immediately prior to this is of the coyote hide hoisted on the tree stump within the sheep-herd. It's as if Ennis, as the physcially adept one in the relationship [note the irony that we see that Jack's marksmanship is not good enough to hit 'his' coyote, but Ennis shoots two of them within a few scenes]..."
Dayum, I never really noticed all of that! Thank you for pointing it out. It was a nice scene when Ennis shot the elk and then shot his lip off (Ennis speaks and has fun!?!?) at Jack that Jack couldn't shoot. I didn't connect it all (the scene where Jack tries to shoot the coyote, misses, and mutters "damn" and the scene where the Ennis's coyote is simply shown strung up.) Dayum! Ang Lee is so good.
Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
by - IamPhineus (Sun Feb 26 2006 04:45:24 )
oooh maybe because Jack decides that he has had enough of Ennis and that it is time he 'quits him', his death is then sympbolic for the fact that he cannot live without Ennis. Thus as soon as he rejects him/leaves him his life ends.
What do people think?
-- Elia Kazan: 'he was a pudding of hatred'. How does one be a pudding exactly? --
Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
by - spare_time (Mon Feb 27 2006 12:47:35 )
Casey wrote:
--------------------------------
I'd second positively my admiration for that shot of Ennis from the back. Though, I do find it striking that the shot immediately prior to this is of the coyote hide hoisted on the tree stump within the sheep-herd. It's as if Ennis, as the physcially adept one in the relationship [note the irony that we see that Jack's marksmanship is not good enough to hit 'his' coyote, but Ennis shoots two of them within a few scenes], is reacting to his previous feelings of 'shame' upon seeing the eviscerated sheep the night after his and Jack's first love-making in the tent, by 'stringing' up the symbolic source of his shame. This shot immediately precedes his approaching Jack on the hill-side, kneeling down in order to speak his acceptance to Jack of their 'one shot thing' they've got going.
I also find it so touching that Jack, even though he should be tending the 'lower' camp, has actively sought out Ennis on the upper hill-side camp in order to be with him.
--------------------------------
I did notice the two coyote hides hoisted on the tree stump, but it’s not clear to me when Ennis shot them. Sorry – but I ma having trouble understanding the significance of the dead coyotes , how they relate to Ennis’ “one shot thing” conversation.
I also find it very touching that Jack actively sought out Ennis on the upper hill-side camp in order to be with him. What an excruciating day it must have been for Jack – after he washed Ennis’ shirt, did his chores, he was left to ponder what Ennis was thinking and how Ennis will be reacting. But true to Jack’s nature, he is brave to come to the sheep (and Ennis).
Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Feb 27 2006 18:54:09 )
UPDATED Thu Mar 2 2006 15:22:31
spare time:
Great to discuss with you on several threads this day.
You've had a busy time posting.
Simply put, I see Ennis as 'working out' his inchoate understanding and confused feelings always through some physical, often violent, expression of his frustration or resolution.
Examples are the wounding/fight the last afternoon on Brokeback, the Fireworks scene, and the apallingly stupid attack on the bruiser in the truck following the Thanksgiving fiasco with Alma. All in keeping with Annie Proulx's conception of Ennis as a supremely physical being [ in contrast to Jack as verbal, demonstrative, talkative, full-of-blarney ] -in Proulx's description Ennis is 'scruffy and a little cave-chested, balanced a small torso on long caliper legs, possessed a muscular and supple body made for the horse and for fighting'.
So I see Ennis's shooting and 'posting' of the coyote as his way of validating some strength to himself. He deals with his inchoate understanding and confused feelings about the previous night's explosive sex with Jack - seconded visually in the louring clouds as he rides alone, the ominous music, the look of confused shame on his face as he views the sheep with this action.
Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
by - momoro (Mon Feb 27 2006 19:08:55 )
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Thank you, CaseyCornelius, for pointing out this element in the film. I am very interested in the formal qualities of cinema, but in such an emotionally rich and overpowering movie as this, these kinds of concerns tend to be overlooked on the basis of one viewing. The camerawork here sounds intriguing and very meaningful, and I will look for this when I next see the film.
Nil ego contulerim iucundo sanus amico.
Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Feb 27 2006 21:43:21 )
momoro:
I'm with you on this one - the overpowering nature of the film is precisely because all of the fantastic photography details and 'formal qualities' are seamlessly integrated into and serve the emotional honesty, subtlety, and profound truths of the story. A miracle of a film, as I'm fond of stating - incredible to believe that it would all fall apart if a single false moment existed so delicately woven together are all of the elements.
Re: the night alley shot
by - Flickfan-3 (Tue Feb 28 2006 08:42:37 )
Did anyone else but me notice that in the scene when Jack meets a trick in Mexico in the dark alley, that the streetlight looked like a crescent moon?
don't you think that was specific to show that 1)the relationship between Jack and Ennis was waining and 2) Jack would never have the "full" relationship with anyone else
Just like the street lights in the scene outside the country dance where Jack and Randall are sitting are "false" full moons--meaning this relationship is only a sham of the one Ennis and Jack share...
"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."
Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
by - Ellemeno (Tue Feb 28 2006 22:46:05 )
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>> Ennis was filmed from his backside (even when he was speaking). At a subconscious level, the audience gets a sense that Ennis cannot face what he had to face after the first night…
Thank you. So obvious once it's pointed out. Lately, it doesn't feel like a day is satisfying enough unless I figure out or am taught some new bit of BBM discovery.
Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks
Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
by - flashframe777 (Wed Mar 1 2006 01:09:34 )
Yes, thanks for putting words to Ennis being filmed from behind. That was a bit like stopping time, and zooming in on an important extremely understated yet crucial detail in the lifeblood of this film.
"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
by - zuraffo (Wed Mar 1 2006 01:41:20 )
Bump, excellent post
The dead sheep on the hill after their first night always had a symbolic meaning to me. A very christian one at that. It's the Bible's Tradition that an animal, especially the sheep is always used to die in place of a sinner to cleanse his sin. And It seems to me that having seen the sheep dead reinforced Ennis sense of guilt.
The last scene has several powerful parallels. One of the most poignant sign is the part where Alma Jr. said :"Yeah, he loves me". Notice Ennis and Jack never said anything about "love" throughout the WHOLE movie. That scene speaks volume to me. considered that Alma Jr only knew her boyfried for less than two years, while Ennis and Jack had known each other for at least 20 years.
Also I believe that what Ennis was swearing was essential that he will stand it "as long as he can ride". This is the parallel to an earlier scene when Jack ask him what to do about their relationship and Ennis committed (unconciously) that:
"If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it"
"for how long?"
"For as long as we can ride." And then add
"This thing that we have here, it's got no end to it" (something like that).
I have never considered Ennis running away/ or in anyway denied his love for jack. In his own way, he was loving Jack with all he had. The last "I swear" was simply a renewal of pledge.
There was something liberating about the last scene. After the daughter drove away, Ennis was again left with the memory of jack, alone.
One of the most successful part of the movie, and essential what made it a masterpiece, is that it leaves so much space, in between all the symbolism and parallelism, for the audience to interpret. It's a show that speak to your heart, not your brain. Damn precious and rare of a gem among today's movie.
Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Mar 1 2006 23:13:32 )
UPDATED Thu Mar 2 2006 21:24:31
zuraffp:
"Damn precious and rare of a gem among today's movie."
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Hear, Hear !!
One casulty in my experience post-Brokeback [or I should say post 10 viewings of same] -- and in common with numerous other posters on this board -- is that I seem to have lost all patience with the mindless obviousness of so much other commerical film and television. So much of Brokeback has the exquisite sensitivity and depth of the finest classic foreign films.
I can barely stand to watch anything else within the North American entertainment industry anymore. Maybe it will drive all of us back to true live drama, music, and truly artistic visions.
Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
by - spare_time (Thu Mar 2 2006 15:20:10 )
Casey wrote:
-------------------
So I see Ennis's shooting and 'posting' of the coyote as his way of validating some strength to himself. He deals with his inchoate understanding and confused feelings about the previous night's explosive sex with Jack - seconded visually in the louring clouds as he rides alone, the ominous music, the look of confused shame on his face as he views the sheep with this action.
-------------------
The shot of Ennis riding alone up the ridge of the mountain to the sheep "the morning after", with clouds looming above, and the ominous music playing is a classic shot. He looks so lost, so lonely and at the same time despite the iconic cowboy image very vulnerable.... I like how Ang Lee set up that shot - beautiful, sad and poetic.