Junior and Cassie in the Bar
by kellyjt (Wed Sep 20 2006 00:25:53 )
This may have been addressed in other posts, but I'm not aware of them and too lazy to look around for them.
Anyhow, in the scene where Ennis, Cassie, and Junior go to the bar, Cassie and Junior are talking while Ennis juices up the jukebox. Junior responds to Cassie's comments and questions about Ennis getting married again -- and to Cassie -- with "Maybe he's not the marrying kind" and "You're good enough." Cassie responds with something like "You don't say much, but you get your point across" (Like father, like daughter.). Then, Junior apologizes for being rude.
Call me dense, but Junior's point doesn't get across to me. What exactly is she saying to Cassie? I'm sure I'll be, like, "Ohhhh! Okay!" when I read any replies to this post, but right now, I'm really stumped and don't see the point.
I'm the type of guy that says, "The puddin' is delicious." -- LL Cool J
Re: Junior and Cassie in the Bar
by BannerHill (Wed Sep 20 2006 00:35:59 )
My take was that Cassie wanted Alma Jr to be excited at the prospect of having her as a new step mother, or maybe excited at the thought of having her dad married to anyone at all. I thought Cassie was taken back by Alma Jr's unenthusiastic response
Re: Junior and Cassie in the Bar
by richardg49 (Wed Sep 20 2006 03:55:27 )
In the 1980s and earlier, it was a commonly-understood 'code' that, when an otherwise eligible and available man was described as 'not the marrying kind', it meant either 'he's gay' or that he was a playboy bachelor who had no intention of ever committing to one woman permanantly. Ennis hardy behaves like the latter, but he does, of course, fit the former description.
'You're good enough' may be Alma jnr's way of saying 'If my dad wanted to marry again, then you would be a very suitable person to be his wife', but the added, implied, thought would also be, 'But I know he's gay, so it ain't gonna happen.'
It's this scene that demonstrates very subtly how well Alma Jnr understands her father. Very skilful scriptwriting by Ossana and McMurtry.
Re: Junior and Cassie in the Bar
by dly64 (Wed Sep 20 2006 07:35:17 )
UPDATED Wed Sep 20 2006 07:36:12
I completely agree with richard49. In all fairness to you, kellyjt, it took me a long time to grasp what was going on. Not particularly with what Alma, Jr. said (I got that point quite easily), but Cassie’s reaction. IMO, Cassie’s reaction to Alma, Jr.’s comment “you’re good enough” was because Cassie felt as though she (Alma, Jr.) was saying … “you’re not the one. You’re as good as anyone else would be.”
I also see Cassie’s response (i.e. grabbing Ennis, dragging him on to the dance floor … which, by the way, he hated …. and then looking back at junior) was her way of giving the finger to Junior. Almost as if … “honey, I’ll show you how much he loves me.” But, of course, we know the ending. Cassie gets hurt.
Diane
"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
Re: Junior and Cassie in the Bar
by LauraGigs (Wed Sep 20 2006 08:57:28 )
Hmm. Would we credit our 15-year-old kids with being able to intuit our deepest sexual secrets?
Re: Junior and Cassie in the Bar
by BannerHill (Wed Sep 20 2006 10:41:50 )
I love this scene.
It also seems to be the only scene where it is all about the two women. Males play very minor parts in this scene.
Re: Junior and Cassie in the Bar
by latjoreme (Wed Sep 20 2006 10:56:03 )
I'm still not sure how much Alma Jr. gets or what she's saying in this scene, and I don't know what Cassie thinks she's saying. But I'm pretty sure that Cassie doesn't think Alma Jr. is saying Ennis is gay. If that were the case, she wouldn't have continued dating him for several more years, and then been so surprised when he broke up with her.
Re: Junior and Cassie in the Bar
by dly64 (Wed Sep 20 2006 11:17:18 )
latjoreme:I'm still not sure how much Alma Jr. gets or what she's saying in this scene, and I don't know what Cassie thinks she's saying. But I'm pretty sure that Cassie doesn't think Alma Jr. is saying Ennis is gay. If that were the case, she wouldn't have continued dating him for several more years, and then been so surprised when he broke up with her.
I agree. There is no way Cassie would have interpreted it that way (i.e. Ennis being gay). I do think, however, Alma, Jr. suspected something. What that was exactly, I don't know. By the end, I think junior is aware that Ennis lost someone he loved. Does she know Ennis is gay? I think so. But again ... another ambiguity!
Diane
"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
Re: Junior and Cassie in the Bar
by NewHorizons37 (Wed Sep 20 2006 11:42:56 )
I'm pretty sure that Cassie doesn't think Alma Jr. is saying Ennis is gay.
I agree. Alma Jr. said "he's not the marrying kind" (which Cassie did not interpret in a gay context) followed by "you're good enough." Hope springs eternal, and I'm sure Cassie took it as Ennis would be tough to get to settle down, but she was "good enough" to possibly manage it if she perservered.
And it's not clear to me that Alma Jr. meant "he's not the marrying kind" in a gay context anyway. Like lauragigs said, are we really expecting that a teen girl would have figured out this secret of her father's, when he can hardly admit it to himself? I think she knew he's not the marrying kind, but not why.
I had a friend who did not come out to me (or himself) until I had known him for several years. Many women were interested in him, but none of his relationships lasted very long. I just thought he was incredibly picky and/or not interested in relationships. It did not occur to me that he might be gay. So it seems quite realistic that in an earlier time when these things were not discussed or as understood the way they are today, especially in a rural area, that it would not occur to a young woman that her father was gay, even though she knew something was up with him and relationships.
Re: Junior and Cassie in the Bar
by daphne7661 (Wed Sep 20 2006 13:19:17 )
I am still not convinced either that Alma Jr. knew that her dad was gay, but do believe, as several posters above have said, that she knew something was different about him and relationships.
Not to go off topic here, but here's a question I pose to you all:
What do you think Alma, Jr., or both she and Jenny, thought of this fellow "Jack", whom they met while visiting with their dad during that fateful, post-divorce scene?
"Girls, this here's Jack. Jack, this here's Alma, Jr. ... and Jenny."
Notice Jack gets no introduction as to what he is to Ennis. Not even, "Girls, this here's my old friend, Jack."
Their intent gaze upon Jack (and also Jenny's back and forth glances from Ennis to Jack) always pique my interest as to what they were thinking. And, didn't they hear what was being said so close to them and then why Jack took off so abruptly...?
I know they were still young, but.....
...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: Junior and Cassie in the Bar
by dly64 (Wed Sep 20 2006 13:19:49 )
NewHorizons37: And it's not clear to me that Alma Jr. meant "he's not the marrying kind" in a gay context anyway. Like lauragigs said, are we really expecting that a teen girl would have figured out this secret of her father's, when he can hardly admit it to himself? I think she knew he's not the marrying kind, but not why.
I think several of us are on the same page. The one thing that I can say about Junior, however, is that she is incredibly perceptive. She was around when Alma had a meltdown after the reunion (obviously, I am not saying that a little girl understood what was happening. I am saying that one incident was one of a long list of things) and I’m sure Junior must have sensed the hostility (from Alma, Sr.) every time Ennis went on his “fishing trips” with Jack. Then there was Jack showing up unannounced after the divorce. (If you notice, Junior’s eyes are intensely on Ennis for most of that scene). And, lastly, there was the disastrous Thanksgiving fiasco. I think by the time Junior was a young adult she put two and two together.
Diane
"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
Time with Daddy: Precious + Rare
by LauraGigs (Wed Sep 20 2006 15:48:19 )
UPDATED Wed Sep 20 2006 15:58:33
Another thing to think about: the girls see their time with their daddy as precious and rare — you can tell by the way they act at Thanksgiving. Plus, Alma Jr. was planning on asking if she could move in with him. It's a big request, and she was probably glad Jenny wouldn't be along so she could have him all to herself, at least for one afternoon.
Then he pulls up — with another woman in the truck. So there goes her plan (at least for the moment). And instead of taking an interest in Jr, Cassie just bugs her about whether Ennis will marry her.
So Jr's reaction is reasonable as it is, without the added awareness that her big, macho daddy is gay.
Of course, it's another one of those open-ended BBM things. Another poster, commenting on Jr's expression as she watches Ennis + Cassie dance, said something like, "There's a skunk in the woodpile. She knows something ain't right."
Re: Time with Daddy: Precious + Rare
by latjoreme (Thu Sep 21 2006 09:34:38 )
<<I’m sure Junior must have sensed the hostility (from Alma, Sr.) every time Ennis went on his “fishing trips” with Jack.>>
Here's a possibility: Maybe it's no accident that Alma Jr. is present during many of the key moments involving Ennis, Jack and sometimes Alma Sr.
-- Jr. was in the room immediately before Jack shows up for the reunion, sees her dad drinking beer and after beer and waiting anxiously by the window. She's very young, but she might notice that it's unusual behavior for Ennis.
-- Alma is sobbing into her hair when Ennis leaves on his first fishing trip with Jack. Again, she's young, but it's a traumatic moment and she may remember it.
-- Jr. and Jenny ask Ennis about the church picnic as he is rushing out the door on a fishing trip, past the peeved Alma.
-- Jr. and Jenny are there when Jack shows up after the post-divorce scene.
-- Jr. and Jenny were right in the other room when Alma confronts Ennis with the "Jack Nasty" accusation.
Maybe all this is meant to suggest that, by the end, she has gradually put 2 and 2 together and at least gotten a hint about Ennis' romantic life.
Re: Time with Daddy: Precious + Rare
by LauraGigs (Thu Sep 21 2006 09:58:15 )
UPDATED Thu Sep 21 2006 20:58:22
Yes, I can maybe see her putting it all together by the end as you say, Latjoreme.
Personally though, I have a hard time with her having figured it all out by age 15, in the visit scenes with Cassie.
(A modern-day 15-year-old with all the info out now on sexuality? Maybe... but not a small-town girl 30 years ago about her own dad, pre-internet and all...)
Re: Time with Daddy: Precious + Rare
by latjoreme (Thu Sep 21 2006 10:08:48 )
UPDATED Thu Sep 21 2006 18:11:53
<<Personally though, I have a hard time with her having figured it all out by age 15, in the visit scenes with Cassie.>>
Oh, right. I should have clarified. She might have thought something was unusual -- her dad didn't seem all that interested in marriage, possibly not even in women -- but that's about it.
<<not a small-town girl 30 years ago about her own dad, pre-internet and all . . .>>
No, you're right. No way. Even if she knew anything about gay men, Ennis wouldn't fit the image she'd have heard about.
When I was maybe 18 or so (roughly the same time Ennis was dating Cassie), my brother's ex-girlfriend's dad left his wife for another man. The guy was head of a huge local company and it was a huge shocking scandal. In those silly, ignorant days it just never occurred to lots of people that that could ever happen. Poor guy! I'm glad he had the guts to do it.
Re: Time with Daddy: Precious + Rare
by dly64 (Thu Sep 21 2006 17:49:24 )
I am on the same page as both of you (Lauragiggs and latjoreme). By the time she visits her "daddy" at the end of the film, I believe Junior knows.
Diane
"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
