Pentecostalists and Methodists.
by chowhound (Sun Apr 29 2007 11:54:56)
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Is there a point in giving Ennis a Methodist background and Jack a Pentecostalist one? (I'm assuming that the cross on the Twist's living room wall with its motto "Christ is our home" could suggest Pentecostalism). Or is the point that this young generation knows much less about religion than their parents did? Jack, for instance, confuses the Pentecost with the Last Judgement. Although Ennis gets married in church, his connection to religion is very tenuous after that. He won't go to the church social on Saturday night because of the "fire and brimstone crowd"; he picks Alma Jr. up AFTER church, and Alma Jr pointedly says that she'll be getting married in the Methodist church almost as though she wants to make sure her father turns up at the right one. It does mean, of course, that Ennis, in dealing with Jack's death, cannot fall back on what someone once called "the comforts of religion".
Re: Pentecostalists and Methodists.
by littlewing1957 (Sun Apr 29 2007 12:09:14)
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Chowhound, this is a very interesting question. And the statement,
It does mean, of course, that Ennis, in dealing with Jack's death, cannot fall back on what someone once called "the comforts of religion
Is very thought provoking. I'll have to give the issue of Jack and Ennis' affiliation more thought, but I am struck by the fact that the men aren't particularly interested in religion and attending church, while the women, Alma, Alma Jr. (don't know about Lureen) seem to enjoy attending church and go on a regular basis. In my mind this is typical of men and women. More women attend church than men do, at least in my experience, and this is evident in BBM, and another reason the film seems so real and honest.
Great post, Chowhound. I'll have to give it more thought.
Re: Pentecostalists and Methodists.
by chowhound (Sun Apr 29 2007 14:02:25)
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Hi littlewing...you are absolutely right to point out that the church connections are largely on the women's side in Ennis's family. Both Alma and her two daughters appear very much to be bound up in the life of their church. For instance, it not Alma but Alma Jnr. who asks Ennis whether he'll be back from fishing in time the "church picnic". Ennis reluctantly agrees: All right...long as I don't have to sing." (I'm not sure what sort of singing would take place at a church picnic. Group singing of hymns? Solo turns, perhaps?) Singing, by the way, also comes up in relationship to Alma Jnr.'s wedding. At that we learn Jenny will be "singing". Again, I'm not sure what she would be singing in a Methodist church wedding service. (I'm from an Anglican (Episcopalian) background).
It's true, in contrast we never hear of the Newsome's religious affiliations. For instance, we never hear anything about Jack and Lureen's wedding though I assume it must have been in a church. Maybe somebody would like to make their wedding the subject of a fanfic?
Re: Pentecostalists and Methodists.
by littlewing1957 (Sun Apr 29 2007 15:20:16)
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All right...long as I don't have to sing." (I'm not sure what sort of singing would take place at a church picnic. Group singing of hymns? Solo turns, perhaps?) Singing, by the way, also comes up in relationship to Alma Jnr.'s wedding. At that we learn Jenny will be "singing". Again, I'm not sure what she would be singing in a Methodist church wedding service. (I'm from an Anglican (Episcopalian) background).
Singing at a church picnic? I never heard of this either, nor did I give it much thought when Ennis mentioned it! Chowhound, this may seem off-topic a bit, but I wonder if Ennis actually did sing in church, you know, the few times that he went. In the short story, the author writes that Ennis had a good voice. I'm from a pentecostal background, and singing is a very important part of any service.
It's true, in contrast we never hear of the Newsome's religious affiliations. For instance, we never hear anything about Jack and Lureen's wedding though I assume it must have been in a church. Maybe somebody would like to make their wedding the subject of a fanfic?
I think this is a great idea, Chowhound! I don't think I've ever read a fic with Jack and Lureen's wedding as a subject!
Re: Pentecostalists and Methodists.
by garycottle (Sun Apr 29 2007 12:19:03)
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Hi chowhound.
Interesting question. The first thing that jumps to my mind is that Pentecostalism is sort of a hot-blooded form of Christianity, while Methodism is kind of dry in comparison. And that might speak to Jack's and Ennis's respective personalities--Jack is more out there, and he came from a Pentecostal home, and Ennis is more reserved and he came from a Methodist home.
I don't think either Jack or Ennis are particularly religious, and as you pointed out, they seem to be pretty ignorant of it. Perhas this further exemplifies how alone they are. In rural America church is often not only a place of worship, but belonging to a church provides a social network. (I live in a small town in rural WV, and I've met many people who seem rather inattentive of the tenets of the faith they profess, but go to church every Sunday anyway. Why? They go to be with friends.) Jack and Ennis seem to be excluded not only from the comforts of the spiritual aspects of religion, but the comforts of a social network, too.
Gary
Re: Pentecostalists and Methodists.
by chowhound (Sun Apr 29 2007 14:10:15)
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Hi Garycottle...I think that you're absolutely right to point out the importance of the social aspect of the church especially in small rural communities. Indeed, it is to things like the "church social" and the "church picnic" that Alma and her daughters want to go. I think you phrase it very elegantly when you conclude that "Jack and Ennis seem to be excluded not only from the comforts of the spiritual aspects of religion, but the comforts of a social network, too".
Re: Pentecostalists and Methodists.
by True_Oracle_of_Phoenix (Sun May 13 2007 09:26:56)
In the movie, the word "tresspass" is a key link between two "marriages".
Aguirre's trailer bears a sign "Tresspassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again." Annie Proulx describes them coming before Aguirre as "they came together on paper as herder and camp tender" clearly hinting that it is a complementary union as they together stand before Aguirre.
Ennis and Alma's wedding scene begins with "Forgive us our tresspasses" from the Lord's Prayer, the audio beginning before the picture as the wedding scene follows Ennis's scene of desolation in the alley after Jack leaves him.
I grew up around Methodists. They took great pride in using a different version of the Lord's Prayer: "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." (The "tresspassers" version was considered by them to be too "Roman Catholic.")
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Re: Pentecostalists and Methodists.
by merr7242 (Sun May 13 2007 13:05:27)
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Okay, here's my "two bits" - In small town situations, I think people also go to church so they won't here from people later in the week "where were you, I didn't see you in church Sunday" because everyone knows everyone and they know everyone's business (and want to).
I think Methodism is a lot more conservative than other sects of protestantism. "Fire and Brimstone" to me comes from always hearing sermons that are making you feel "Damned to Hell" by (what I always think of as a loving) God because You Are All Sinners! and are going to burn in Hell. It's one of the reasons I quit going to church when I was 12. I knew even then that the people in my church were there only to "show off their clothes" and that they were gossiping behind other people's backs (I heard them) and it just put me off.
You all are right though - "my" generation just went to church because it was expected - as did their parents probably for the most part because their parents did...etc. Neither of my parents were church goers though.
MERR
Jack, I swear...... [Ennis Del Mar]
Re: Pentecostalists and Methodists.
by jasonboyd327 (Sun Apr 29 2007 14:11:47)
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YES !!! Very interesting post chowhound. I will definitely be eagerly keeping my eye on this subject matter.
