Author Topic: A question on religion  (Read 9925 times)

Offline David In Indy

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Re: A question on religion
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2007, 12:52:56 am »
David I have a question.

I think I read somewhere ( ::) ) that 'berdaches' got 'married' to warriors in the tribe. Were the men that married them considered homosexual?

Would you (from todays' viewpoint) consider the warriors to be gay?



Warriors would somtimes be married to a wink'te, if the tribe was fortunate enough to have a wink'te. This was considered a great honor for the warrior. But the warrior would probably also be married to a female. I don't know the complete answer to that question Jess. Maybe I can find something about it on the Internet.

But I do know TWO things:

1. It did happen.

2. It was considered a great honor.

And as Daniel pointed out, gay men were often married to chiefs as well.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 12:58:00 am by David »
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Offline Kerry

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Re: A question on religion
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2007, 12:53:55 am »
No, you're correct Kerry. Berdache is considered offensive, especially by gay Native Americans. I flinched a little when I read it in Daniel's post, but he was correct to use it in his message. Because it's a word used quite often, especially among white, Christian people. In fact, I think it was the Christian missionaries who first used that word. Most Sioux will use the word "wink'te" when referring to gay people. Other tribes have their own words. Wink'te literally means "half man" in Lakota.

Most Native people interpret the word berdache to mean "hermaphrodite" which obviously is totally inaccurate. I suppose the early missionaries didn't have any other word to use, so they picked that one.  ???


Many thanks for your response, David. Now that I think about it, I suspect it was probably from you, at another thread, that I read about the term "berdache."
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: A question on religion
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2007, 12:56:09 am »
I know we have a few other Native American Bettermostian members here as well. It would be interesting for them to chime in here with their knowledge of this subject. Hopefully they will.  :D
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Offline Daniel

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Re: A question on religion
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2007, 02:06:45 am »
I certainly did not mean anything inflammatory or derogatory by use of the term. The book I retrieved it from seemed very gay-friendly so I assumed it was an acceptable term. I apologize if I caused you any stress or pain by using it.
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: A question on religion
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2007, 12:12:04 am »
I certainly did not mean anything inflammatory or derogatory by use of the term. The book I retrieved it from seemed very gay-friendly so I assumed it was an acceptable term. I apologize if I caused you any stress or pain by using it.

NO! I'm glad you used it!!  :)

I said so in my previous post. Maybe you didn't see it Daniel. You didn't cause me any stress or pain at all!  :)
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Offline Daniel

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Re: A question on religion
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2007, 02:55:50 am »
I'm glad of that. But to prevent any such pain in the future (to you or others), perhaps you can think of an all-inclusive term that we might use to apply to these spiritual positions in Native American tribes. I noticed you tend to use the term wink'te, and I would be honored to use that as a culturally specific term if other Tribes would not be opposed to it. Naturally, we would attempt to use the tribe-specific term when referencing wink'te. So for example we might say "the Ojibway wink'te, agokwa" unless we were referencing a specific Ojibway agokwa, in which case we might say "the Ojibway agokwa, **name**".

That sounds like it might get confusing at some point, but I am willing to try if it will be more respectful to both the traditions of those Tribes and the wink'te (singular and plural?) themselves.
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: A question on religion
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2007, 03:09:39 am »
I'm glad of that. But to prevent any such pain in the future (to you or others), perhaps you can think of an all-inclusive term that we might use to apply to these spiritual positions in Native American tribes. I noticed you tend to use the term wink'te, and I would be honored to use that as a culturally specific term if other Tribes would not be opposed to it. Naturally, we would attempt to use the tribe-specific term when referencing wink'te. So for example we might say "the Ojibway wink'te, agokwa" unless we were referencing a specific Ojibway agokwa, in which case we might say "the Ojibway agokwa, **name**".

That sounds like it might get confusing at some point, but I am willing to try if it will be more respectful to both the traditions of those Tribes and the wink'te (singular and plural?) themselves.

Thanks Daniel!! That simple gesture alone speaks volumes.  :)

I think the word "wink'te" would be acceptable. Most Native Americans would recognize it, even if they are not from any of the Sioux tribes. It's a Lakota word, but for some reason the Lakota language seems to be universal among Native Americans; much like English has become universal in the Western world.

Thanks Daniel!  :)
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