Boys like you... --- by mizkiwi

[TOoP/Bruce]

Boys like you...   
      
by - mizkiwi 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 13:34:26 )   

Why do you think Ennis said that? 'I know what they've got in Mexico for boys like you' I don't get why he added that, it's not in the short story and it just makes it sound as though he was saying that Jack was gay and not him...But that doesn't work because I'm sure Ennis KNEW he was gay even if he had a very hard time accepting it..So what do you think? Did he say that because he was furious?

Re: Boys like you...   
by - belfastgirl 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 13:37:05 )   

I think Ennis was referring to Jack's privileged economic situation.
That's the way I got it. He could afford his trips to Mexico.

Re: Boys like you...   
by - kudzudaddy 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 13:42:37 )   

Interesting take, Belfast... I hadn't considered that... though, like so many moments in the film, open to a range of interpretation...

"...careless where the next bright bolt might fall."

Re: Boys like you...   
by - the_protector 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 13:43:09 )   

UPDATED Sat May 13 2006 13:44:09
I always thought it alluded to Jack being more promiscuous than Ennis. Even if Ennis knows deep down that him and Jack are both gay, the fact is: Jack is more accepting of it. Maybe this line conveys that distinction.

I've never considered the economic angle, but it is an interesting viewpoint.





If you feel embarrassed, I'll be your pride.
If you need direction, I'll be your guide.

Re: Boys like you...   
by - belfastgirl 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 13:43:56 )   

It can be both!

Re: Boys like you...   
by - ailuro 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 14:04:14 )   

Well, maybe. If in fact Ennis is referring to Jack's privileged life, then why this sudden envy? That doesn't jibe for me, because following this, we have the " What I don't know, all them things I don't know..." lines. Ennis is clearly,imo, suspicious of something.



" This is not a psychotic episode. This is a cleansing moment of clarity. " Network

Re: Boys like you...   
by - kudzudaddy 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 13:40:23 )   

Furious, jealous -- and no, I don't think he ever accepted he was gay... not until that moment in the bedroom in Lightning Flats. In Ennis's mind, the fact that Jack could "get it on" with other men made him "gay" but since Ennis only did it with Jack, it was only "this thing." But remember where all this comes from...
his own desire and longing for Jack...

so sad...

that final lake scene is such a gut punch in so many ways... how they try to hurt each other...


"...careless where the next bright bolt might fall."

Re: Boys like you...   
by - mizkiwi 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 14:00:45 )   

I don't know, I really think he knew deep down that he was gay...because he DOES know he loves Jack, he even admits he's nothing without him at the end of the conversation (well that's how I interpreted it!)..do you think Ennis had any doubts about Jack going to Mexico or seeing other men before that final lake conversation?

Re: Boys like you...   
by - the_protector 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 14:08:55 )   

UPDATED Sat May 13 2006 14:12:05
"do you think Ennis had any doubts about Jack going to Mexico or seeing other men before that final lake conversation? "

I really don't.
It wasn't until Jack's "I did once" when Ennis was struck by the possibility.
Ennis' "You got a better idea?" was a retorical and slightly condescending question. Ennis knew that he controlled when they met and Jack would not have a 'better idea' because Ennis had already ruled out August. Case closed.

When Jack says "I did once" Ennis was not expecting it. He was not expecting Jack to have a "back up plan" or a "plan B" for Ennis' undesirable scheduling.


If you feel embarrassed, I'll be your pride.
If you need direction, I'll be your guide.

Re: The short story says.....   
by - belfastgirl 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 14:16:59 )   

"You been a Mexico, Jack?" Mexico was the place. He'd heard. He was cutting fence now, trespassing in the shoot-em zone.
"Hell yes, I been. Where's the *beep* problem?" Braced for it all these years and here it came, late and unexpected.

It seems Ennis suspected Jack's trips to Mexico.

Thoughts??

Re: The short story says.....   
by - the_protector 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 14:25:34 )   

UPDATED Sat May 13 2006 14:26:14
"It seems Ennis suspected Jack's trips to Mexico."

What I get from this passage is that Jack was 'braced' for the event when Ennis would start to wake up and acknowledge that it wasn't just a 'thing' and that Jack didn't see it as such.

The 'shoot-em zone' was that area where their 'thing' left the boundaries of just being 'one-shot'.


If you feel embarrassed, I'll be your pride.
If you need direction, I'll be your guide.

Re: The short story says.....   
by - belfastgirl 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 14:33:34 )   

It may be, I might have misinterpreted the whole thing, I'm not an English native speaker.

Re: Boys like you...   
by - VerdiGuy 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 14:16:29 )   

If I may, mizkiwi, Ennis doesn't say that he's nothing without Jack. In fact, what he says is quite the opposite: "It's 'cause of you, Jack, that I'm like this ... I'm nothing, I'm nowhere ..." He's blaming Jack for the wretched state of his life.

As to the main question of this thread, I agree with those who think that Ennis is still grappling with his own homophobia at this point, and that his "boys like you" crack is pretty close to calling Jack a queer - in the sense of that word that they both meant back in '63 when Ennis said, "You know I ain't queer" and Jack replied, "Me neither." Ennis has begun to suspect that Jack may have fooled around with other guys, where Ennis never has - a distinction that is made very clear in the motel scene in the short story, in some lines that were omitted from the film. It's sad that Ennis is so blind to himself and his own desires that he tries to blame his problems on Jack when actually he is the architect of most of them himself.

Re: Boys like you...   
by - kudzudaddy 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 14:41:07 )   


"he tries to blame his problems on Jack when actually he is the architect of most of them himself."

Yes -- that's what makes this a Tragedy, though. And raises it above more run-of-the-mill films. We don't often get classical tragedy onscreen anymore... usually only manipulative melodrama. I think this is what accounts for the incredible power of BBM.



"...careless where the next bright bolt might fall."

Re: Boys like you...   
by - zanmorrow 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 14:45:54 )   

I thought he meant that Jack couldn't just hold out for a few high altitude fu**s a year - he needed more sex - that's what 'guys like Jack' wanted - any sex, not just the one and only that Ennis was satisfied with, or stood anyway.

Jack bleep Twist

Re: Boys like you...   
by - hanni 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 16:25:11 )   

"he tries to blame his problems on Jack when actually he is the architect of most of them himself."

I interpreted it a different way. A couple of lines before Ennis says "it's because of you I'm this way...I'm nothing...I'm nowhere..." Ennis talks about how he cannot take the time off for their August rendezvous: "..it was easier when I was younger..I just quit the job...". Ergo, that's how he lived his life, taking occasional jobs to make some money, and left the jobs when Jack drove up to him. This did not come up between them during the 20 years, he does not try to blame the things on Jack, he just feels crushed by thought of being left with nothing, no family, no Jack, just one shirt in a paper bag. From the shepherding scenes it's obvious that Ennis is a hardworking guy and could have had a better life if he does not quit his jobs in fast succession.

Just my take. I really need to get a life.


hanni


Re: Boys like you...   
by - shortfic 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 19:58:35 )   

Ennis cannot conceive of himself as homosexual, despite everything. "I ain't no queer" means "I cannot be...that, because then I'd be just like the man that was killed when I was a kid and my dad made me look at the corpse." Or "I can't be because I'm a cowboy, rancher, stoic Western guy who is supposed to be repressed and I'm supposed to be attracted only to women."

But he sees Jack differently. He sees Jack as the kind of guy who would go and seek pleasure or relief of a sexual nature in Mexico if he had to. This is made a bit more clear in the short story. "Boys like you" is a very telling line, since he does not say "guys like us."


"Say thank you, Gilbert. Say thank you."

Re: Boys like you...   
by - clancypants 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 20:16:00 )   

UPDATED Sat May 13 2006 20:18:22
As to the line "I did once" ... I always took this to mean "I did have a better idea once -- you and me living together."

Remember, Jack says this to Ennis after Ennis just got done explaining why this trip worked, why August was out, and why November would be the next time. There's a pause between them. Ennis then asks Jack whether Jack has a better idea. Jack says "I did once."

I don’t think he was saying "Yeah, I had a better idea once... a better idea than waiting around for you... I went and found other guys."

And I think Ennis knew what Jack meant. But Ennis is in defensive mode with Jack right now. Ennis did what Ennis always did in a situation where Ennis was on the defensive... he put the other guy on the defensive. Thus, "you been to Mexico?"

Jack goes with this line until Ennis explodes with murderous threats.

Then it's Jack's turn and the first thing he does is remind Ennis that they could have had a better life together. But Ennis didn’t want it. Jack goes back to his original point, shoves the blame on Ennis and makes Ennis accountable.

Then Jack goes on to explain why he went to Mexico -- since he had just admitted it during Ennis' outburst. But it wasn’t his original intent to go down that road in the first place. When Jack said "we should go to Mexico," it was a slip on his part. He meant, go to a place that's warm. He didn’t mean "let's go a place where we can have sex with gay prostitutes." Unfortunately, by mentioning Mexico at all, it gave Ennis ammunition against Jack. And Ennis used it to avoid Jack's true intent -- we could have had a better life together. Avoidance is a characteristic of Ennis.

It just never made any sense to me that when Ennis asked Jack whether he had a better idea (about when we can meet and how we can make it work), that Jack would say "I did once -- gay Mexican prostitutes." Jack's better idea was for them to live together; thus, they would not have to always have this issue between them. And, by extension, no Mexico either.

Re: Boys like you...   
by - the_protector 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 21:32:19 )   

Clancy, you hit the nail on the head!
It was definitely an intentionally misinterpreted line. Such a great one, this scene.


If you feel embarrassed, I'll be your pride.
If you need direction, I'll be your guide.

Re: Boys like you...   
by - VerdiGuy 3 days ago (Sun May 14 2006 08:41:45 )   

Excellent précis, clancypants. Thank you!

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Boys like you...   
by - taj_e 3 days ago (Sun May 14 2006 10:51:20 )   

UPDATED Sun May 14 2006 10:59:43
Very convincing clancy
It really runs well with both characters, the positive Jack and negative Ennis
Even in a such tense situation, Jack managed to remain true to himself
He clearly said, how much Ennis knew and wanted him to admit that even if he doesn't know the rest

I'm not sure if Ennis knew what Jack meant though. He doesn't even had a clue why Jack asked about Cassie ('you haven't found anyone to marry?')

I do however understand how Ennis got it 'wrong'. Apart from his character, it was clear to him that Jack had thought about such problem/situation and had a better idea once. Not about cow and calf operation, and since Mexico was mentioned it has to be another man

Having said the above, I can also accept that Jack really meant it was about Mexico. He lied about Randall but honest about missing Ennis and he can hardly stand it. Telling about Mexico is really telling Ennis how he can no longer stand it

Re: Boys like you...   
by - taj_e 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 15:11:22 )   

Kudz said 'furious, jealous...' I always wanted to add 'worried, afraid, feared...'

Verdi said
It's sad that Ennis is so blind to himself and his own desires that he tries to blame his problems on Jack when actually he is the architect of most of them himself
Am not sure, if this meant, Ennis also desired to be with another man regardless if it is Jack or not OR if he couldn't be with Jack, has it ever occured to him to have it with another? OR it was the same to have sex (anal sex in particular) with anyone?

On hetero POV, we've seen many husbands committed infidelity and one of the reason can be lack of sex. Some doesn't mind to do it with another man just to satisfy the lust (has anyone seen 24th Day? Until now am not sure why Tom had sex with Dan, for lack of sex with his wife? doing it with another man isn't cheating?)

I find that Ennis doesn't have such problem at least when he was still with Alma. We never really see him looking at another man. Even with Cassie, I doubt sex was the main reason. All I can settle with was, Ennis' 'curse' 'if he can't fix it, he gotta stand it'

Jack said, he's not like Ennis which is obvious. But does Ennis realised/understood Jack's reason? Did Ennis realize Jack was indeed a queer (Boys like you...)?

Fear blinded Ennis. He may see Jack was a queer. He can't see/accept himself as one. He denied both his love and the fact that he was too a queer. That all the while Jack was having an affair with a queer (Boys like him), and even sad, Jack had been waiting for this 'boy' to run away with him. Doesn't matter if this 'boy' loved him or not

Jack: '..that's all we have, f'ng all boy'

Re: Boys like you...   
by - tillerman-1 3 days ago (Sun May 14 2006 17:16:58 )   

I always took the "I hear what they have in Mexico for boy's like you " as confirming he knows Jack is gay.
But I think Ennis knows by this scene that he is gay to. Remember the time they were together and he asked Jack if it was normal between he and Lureen and whether she ever suspected or whether anyone suspected.
He wouldn't have asked this unless he knew he was gay and worrying that now he knows it for sure maybe everyone knows to... He knew but still wasn't accepting.


Re: Boys like you...   
by - artsybaebe 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 15:16:35 )   

I guess what I'm curious to know is: doesn't this strike others as odd that Ennis--the 'I'm not queer' guy who never travels farther than around the handle of a coffee pot--should KNOW 'what they've got in Mexico for boys like you"? (And I agree with VerdiGuy, the use of 'boys' in this is perilously close to calling Jack a 'queer'). How DOES Ennis know? From whom does he know? We never see him talking to anyone else in the film besides Jack, Alma, Cassie, and his daughters. He doesn't talk much, but he must listen a hell of a lot more than he talks. Does he hear this kind of homophobic banter on the various ranches he works for?

Re: Boys like you...   
by - DSTgar 2 days ago (Mon May 15 2006 07:27:31 )   

Yeah, I'd say that's a weak plot point. Ennis knows this, but he doesn't know that he and Jack could move somewhere and have a better life? Why Mexico? There were gay bars and hustlers in Dallas in the mid-70s. Even Houston was closer than Laredo.

Not garnished? Not finished!

Re: Boys like you...   
by - littlewing1957 2 days ago (Mon May 15 2006 08:49:13 )   

<<Yeah, I'd say that's a weak plot point. Ennis knows this, but he doesn't know that he and Jack could move somewhere and have a better life? Why Mexico? There were gay bars and hustlers in Dallas in the mid-70s. Even Houston was closer than Laredo.>>

But to do this, Ennis would have to acknowledge that he was, in fact, gay. Ennis was unable to do this, thus never even thinking about moving someplace where his gay lifestyle would be more accepted.

Re: Boys like you...   
by - DSTgar 2 days ago (Mon May 15 2006 10:00:00 )   

I meant that Jack could have gone somewhere closer that Mexico to get what he was needing. Sorry I mashed two thoughts together.

Not garnished? Not finished!

Re: Boys like you...   
by - littlewing1957 2 days ago (Mon May 15 2006 08:54:01 )   

artsybaeba, this is a little OT, But don't you think it is a bit odd that Jack would want to take Ennis to Mexico, especially since he went there looking for men? I know Mexico is a big place, but if I were cheating, I wouldn't want my lover anywhere near my "playground." Jack wanting to go to Mexico with Ennis somehow confirms my belief that Jack only visited Mexico once to dull his pain after Ennis rejected him.

Re: Boys like you...   
by - revolution-hk 4 days ago (Sat May 13 2006 20:02:42 )   

Although he knew everthing in the heart, he can never admit it, even in his spiritual asylum

"If you can't fix it....call the support hot-line."

Re: Boys like you...   
by - terryhall2 2 days ago (Mon May 15 2006 08:59:05 )   

He is stating obviously that Jack is gay but denying that he himself is. Lots of guys in denial do this...blaming the other for encouraging them. Classic denial syndrome.

Re: Boys like you...   
by - needacoffee 2 days ago (Mon May 15 2006 10:19:45 )   

Could he simply be refering to Jack's attractiveness? In the sense of "(pretty) boys like you".

Re: Boys like you...   
by - plato21 2 days ago (Mon May 15 2006 16:23:27 )   

mizkiwi, true that line is not in the novella, Calling Jack a "boy" when Ennis knows Jack is almost 40, is a major slur. (The pot calling the kettle black). My guess is that the screenwriters added that insult because they felt they needed to better justify Ennis's rather abrupt and reckless insinuation of murder. “All them things I don’t know could get you killed if I should come to know them.” The screenwriters knew that this is the scene in which Jack must realize that there is no longer any hope of a fulfilling relationship with Ennis (i.e. that new ranch hand friend from Texas), and Ennis's insensitive and stinging "boy" taunt would have helped Jack reach this painful decision, a decision that seems to be conveyed so eloquently in that long, touching closeup of Jack watching Ennis and his dream depart.

Re: Boys like you...   
by - taj_e 14 hours ago (Wed May 17 2006 14:20:37 )   

I was thinking Ennis would have meant 'Boys like us..' or 'Boys R us
Anyways...
Ennis was the first to used the word (calling Jack a queer almost admiting himself as one), and Jack was being expressive as ever (thinking out loud at times), used the same word for Ennis' sake

20 years back they both denied it
Ennis: 'I ain't queer'
Jack: 'Me neither'

20 years later they both admitted it (indirectly) and it was Ennis again who started it
Ennis: 'Boys like you'='You're a queer'
Jack: 'f'ng all boy!'='You're a queer too'

Note: Of course these aren't two young boys getting back at each other, it's much deeper than that

Re: Boys like you...(REPOST)   
  by anml-lvr     25 minutes ago (Thu Dec 14 2006 08:21:31 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I think he was referring to Jack being gay. But I also think he was trying to change the subject because he said it right after Jack mentions having a better idea once...

Re: Boys like you...(REPOST)   
  by sfericsf     17 minutes ago (Thu Dec 14 2006 08:29:33 )   
   
"Boys like you" = It was definitely Ennis's continued denial that he himself is gay..