Author Topic: Gender, sexual orientation and power  (Read 14060 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Gender, sexual orientation and power
« on: June 09, 2007, 12:23:27 pm »
Hey everybody, this is a new thread created from a conversation that began on the Brokeback Slang thread. It was getting very OT for that thread, yet was so interesting that I created this thread so the discussion could continue.

It's about whether lesbians are more accepted by society than gay men, and if so why, why men throughout history have held more power than women, and other fascinating questions. It starts where the discussion veered off on the other board, with a question about whether the Oscars would ever pick a gay celebrity as host.

Because it was cut out of another thread it begins a little abruptly, but as you read on in the posts you'll get in the swing of it.



« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 05:52:41 pm by ineedcrayons »

Offline Sashca1007

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Gender, sexual orientation and power
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2007, 06:42:36 pm »


- I mean, you can't see the Oscars giving the host role to an openly gay person, can you? 

Umm...  can and did!  ;)
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 05:48:44 pm by ineedcrayons »
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Offline brokebackjack

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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2007, 03:50:15 pm »
Umm...  can and did!  ;)
That's not what  Sheyne  meant, I think<??>

Lesbians are acceptable as hosts, etc.. Gay MALES are not. California will fall into the sea before the studios allow a homo to host the Oscars, the homophobia of execs--quite often Gay EXECS!!!--IS GROTESQUE.

Haven't  :o...and won't, not can and did.
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Offline serious crayons

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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2007, 04:23:20 pm »
That's not what  Sheyne  meant, I think<??>

Though Sheyne's comment is dated April 20, 2006, so she may not have known about Ellen at that point, in any case.

Offline brokebackjack

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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2007, 04:54:46 am »
by the way, a person looking over my shoulder asked 'So, Who's the CRAYONBABE??'


lolololol


Just had to share that with you.

It's wierd, ''crayonbabe" [lol, I am dyin here]

Why do you think a lesbian is acceptable but a gay man isn't? It baffles me. Gay is gay, right? Yet they would push a gay woman into the limelight and have a canary at the thought of a gay MAN doing what Ellen did...

any thoughts?
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline serious crayons

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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2007, 12:40:03 pm »
 :laugh: Well, brokebackbabe,  :laugh: actually I'm not sure I agree with your premise.

I guess to the extent that straight people accept lesbians more than they do gay men, it's because according to cultural stereotype lesbians are more "masculine" than straight women and gay men more "feminine," and masculinity is more valued than femininity in this society (and pretty much every other one). So, for example, nobody minds much if a girl is "tomboyish," if she prefers boyish clothes or playing in groups of boys -- often, she's even seen as being cooler or smarter or more skilled than girlish girls. But it's much less acceptable for a boy to be a "sissy," wear effeminate clothes, play with all girls -- that is seen as demeaning and shameful. The same prejudice extends into adulthood. I'm not saying those things are necessarily linked to sexual orientation, but in society's collective mind they are, and therefor the double standard of prejudice.

However, that said, I think the idea that they would allow a lesbian to host the Oscars but they would not allow a gay man to do so is too hypothetical to determine, mainly because there is no male Ellen out there.

First of all, Ellen DeGeneres is one of the most likable people on the face of the earth, so if any gay woman is going to be "accepted," it's her. I bet Rosie O'Donnell, who is way more controversial, would have a tougher time getting the Oscar gig. (Though ... news flash! While writing this, I ran across a story saying Rosie is being considered as a replacement for Bob Barker on The Price is Right!)

But who are the out gay male celebrities? Ian McKellan, Rupert Everett, the guy on "Grey's Anatomy," Rufus Wainwright ... none of them would be likely Oscar hosts in any case. Maybe I'm forgetting someone who would be perfect for the job, but at the moment none comes to mind.

But let's say Jon Stewart suddenly announced that he's gay. Or Steve Carell. Or Conan O'Brien. Likable stars whose income does not depend on playing romantic heterosexual leads -- which I think makes it easier to come out, for either male or female stars -- I can see them being "accepted" by straights, and by Hollywood execs, and even potentially theoretically serving as Oscar host.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 03:55:22 pm by ineedcrayons »

Offline Penthesilea

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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2007, 04:35:23 pm »
:laugh: Well, brokebackbabe,  :laugh: actually I'm not sure I agree with your premise.

I guess to the extent that straight people accept lesbians more than they do gay men, it's because according to cultural stereotype lesbians are more "masculine" than straight women and gay men more "feminine," and masculinity is more valued than femininity in this society (and pretty much every other one).

Oh yes. The male is the "better", worth striving for standard. Women in male domains get usually praise and admiration (e.g. women in car racing or "typical" male professions). Men in "typical" female professions or domains? What do you think a men gets to hear when he loves knitting as a hobby? Or a man who stays at home with the children (and his wife has a paid job)?



Quote
So, for example, nobody minds much if a girl is "tomboyish," if she prefers boyish clothes or playing in groups of boys -- often, she's even seen as being cooler or smarter or more skilled than girlish girls. But it's much less acceptable for a boy to be a "sissy," wear effeminate clothes, play with all girls -- that is seen as demeaning and shameful. The same prejudice extends into adulthood. I'm not saying those things are necessarily linked to sexual orientation, but in society's collective mind they are, and therefor the double standard of prejudice.

Again: oh yes! I have two living examples here in my home: one of my girls is a tomboy. From early age on, she never wanted to wear a dress or skirt, had her hair trimmed down to a a few millimeters, she wanted to have a crane for her birthday, always played with the boys, wore clothes in darker shades, hated pink and shirts with flowers, etc, etc.
And everybody found her cool. The boys liked her because she was "one of them", the girls admired her coolness, the adults said she has guts and assertiveness (which she has). In short: she got only positive reactions.

Now my boy: he's almost four and loves everything pink. He loves to dance (ballett-wise, at least he tries, that's so cute, lol), wants desperately to be a princess or a fairy, wears the dresses of his older sister (not the tomboy, I have another girl) and nail polish, wanted to have a fairy costume for Christmas (and got it), plays mostly with girls, and so on.
Do people think he's cool? No. And what does he get? Admiration? Praise? Rarely. Well, at least he doesn't get any rebuff either. But there have occasionally been people who ask me if I'm not worried about him. No. I'm not. Why should I? But never had anybody asked me if I'm worried about my tomboy girl.


Look at the job world. Which jobs are better paid? Typical female jobs, like medical secretary - or tapical male jobs like a car mechanic? Look at successful female managers, or our German Bundeskanzlerin: her fav clothing is a suit for females (trouser-suit?; not sure about the translation). Ever seen any male top-manager in a dress?
The male is the standard. A woman behaving manly "upgrades" herself, a man behaving womanly "downgrades" hisself.

Another reason for wider acceptance of lesbians than gay men is a historic one: for hundreds, almost thousands of years, it was common sense that women don't have any sexuality at all. So when they're not sexual beings, they can't be homosexual.

Offline serious crayons

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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2007, 06:45:27 pm »
Right. And when people say a woman has some masculine characteristic, it's usually a compliment -- she's as tough as a man, as brave as a man, knows sports/cars/carpentry as well as a man, etc. And when people say a man has some feminine characteristic, it's almost NEVER a compliment. In the first place, the comparative characteristic would probably be negative: a man is compared to a woman if he cries or gossips or screams at something trivial or can't throw a ball right or do some other typical male skill. But even if the characteristic in itself is positive, it's STILL often said in a backhanded way. Describing a man is as "sensitive as a woman" might not be considered flattering.

Still another possible reason for wider acceptance of lesbians that I was going to mention is that it's more acceptable in this society for women to express physical affection or closeness -- hugging, kissing, going to the restroom together, sleeping in the same bed. But I left that out earlier because I'm not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg: is lesbianism less threatening because closeness among women is more accepted, or is closeness among women more accepted because lesbianism is less threatening?  ??? :-\

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2007, 07:04:27 pm »
However, that said, I think the idea that they would allow a lesbian to host the Oscars but they would not allow a gay man to do so is too hypothetical to determine, mainly because there is no male Ellen out there.

First of all, Ellen DeGeneres is one of the most likable people on the face of the earth, so if any gay woman is going to be "accepted," it's her. I bet Rosie O'Donnell, who is way more controversial, would have a tougher time getting the Oscar gig. (Though ... news flash! While writing this, I ran across a story saying Rosie is being considered as a replacement for Bob Barker on The Price is Right!)

But who are the out gay male celebrities? Ian McKellan, Rupert Everett, the guy on "Grey's Anatomy," Rufus Wainwright ... none of them would be likely Oscar hosts in any case. Maybe I'm forgetting someone who would be perfect for the job, but at the moment none comes to mind.

But let's say Jon Stewart suddenly announced that he's gay. Or Steve Carell. Or Conan O'Brien. Likable stars whose income does not depend on playing romantic heterosexual leads -- which I think makes it easier to come out, for either male or female stars -- I can see them being "accepted" by straights, and by Hollywood execs, and even potentially theoretically serving as Oscar host.

Except that, unfortunately, he doesn't really have the celebrity for the job of Oscar host, Ted the wine and food guy from Queer Eye for the Straight Guy came immediately to my mind when I read that phrase, "male Ellen." Very likeable and personable and completely nonthreatening.

Been a long time since I saw that show. What is his last name, anyway?  ???
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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2007, 07:07:28 pm »



         Well stated ladies.  I wonder if the same is true of gay men.  Do they think women also are
less than men?  Or is that just a trait of the heterosexual male.. He just thinks as societal teaching
has made him believe.  The male sexual prowess makes him better than all others, along of course
with his supposed stronger physique.??  Giving way to the natural feelings of dominance, and superiority.? 



     Beautiful mind