Stay Home.

[sparkle_motion]

Today is the big walk-out for hispanic americans. Is anyone noticing a difference at your jobs? My good friend works in the HR department of a large, mostly hispanic company and he said they are having MANY people not come into work. The company is not going to punish them, which I think is fair.

[RouxB]

I'm not supposed to be here today in solidarity but I'm waiting for a guest and can't leave til she gets here. Not too many people in my office are boycotting-sad because immigration is a huge issue here.

 

[delalluvia]

Yeah, I read about that.  The walkout had zero affect on my job or my clients or the offices in government that we deal with.

I thought it might when I went out to lunch, since the news articles talked about restaurants closing down, but apparently there are plenty of Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants who chose to go to work.  I had no problem at the malls or at a restaurant.

Immigration is a big issue here, too, but many of the legal immigrants are pretty incensed at the illegal immigrants and not sympathetic.

[JennyC]

Immigration is a big issue here, too, but many of the legal immigrants are pretty incensed at the illegal immigrants and not sympathetic.

I agree with Del.  I, myself, is a legal immigrant here.  I won't say that I am not sympathetic to illegal immigrants, but my view on the issue is different from the people who rally today.

I support tightening boarder control and other ways to crack down illegal immigrants.  The word “illegal” is used for the simple fact that there are legal ways to come here, and if you don’t go through that process, then it’s illegal.  Of course, there are many other reasons why boarder control is for anyone’s benefit.  The pressure should also be put on the employers who hire illegal immigrants as they are a very important part of the enforcement effort.

It’s undeniable that there are huge labor needs in US market that can’t be satisfied domestically.  There are jobs that people here normally do not want to take or won’t take for the pay they offer.  To simply deny the needs is just being an ostrich burying your head in the sand.  Washington needs to get their acts together to provide ways for people to come here legally to fulfill those vacancies.  Unless they make some drastic reform/change in the immigration process, currently there is no way they can handle the workload from the proposed “Guess Worker” program. The whole immigration process was so under funded and short staffed; to say it’s a mess is an understatement.

The illegal immigrants put a lot of pressure on the education and healthcare systems.  So the cheap labor you get from immigrants is not so cheap after all.  IMO, the employers who hire immigrants, particularly in the low paying jobs should share part of the burden, this burden in turn will be shouldered by the end consumers and society as we will see price rise for some services/goods.  It may not be a bad thing since it’s probably more fair in terms of how their work should be valued after all. 

[delalluvia]

Immigration is a big issue here, too, but many of the legal immigrants are pretty incensed at the illegal immigrants and not sympathetic.

I agree with Del.  I, myself, is a legal immigrant here.  I won't say that I am not sympathetic to illegal immigrants, but my view on the issue is different from the people who rally today.

I support tightening boarder control and other ways to crack down illegal immigrants.  The word “illegal” is used for the simple fact that there are legal ways to come here, and if you don’t go through that process, then it’s illegal.  Of course, there are many other reasons why boarder control is for anyone’s benefit.  The pressure should also be put on the employers who hire illegal immigrants as they are a very important part of the enforcement effort.

It’s undeniable that there are huge labor needs in US market that can’t be satisfied domestically.  There are jobs that people here normally do not want to take or won’t take for the pay they offer.  To simply deny the needs is just being an ostrich burying your head in the sand.  Washington needs to get their acts together to provide ways for people to come here legally to fulfill those vacancies.  Unless they make some drastic reform/change in the immigration process, currently there is no way they can handle the workload from the proposed “Guess Worker” program. The whole immigration process was so under funded and short staffed; to say it’s a mess is an understatement.

The illegal immigrants put a lot of pressure on the education and healthcare systems.  So the cheap labor you get from immigrants is not so cheap after all.  IMO, the employers who hire immigrants, particularly in the low paying jobs should share part of the burden, this burden in turn will be shouldered by the end consumers and society as we will see price rise for some services/goods.  It may not be a bad thing since it’s probably more fair in terms of how their work should be valued after all. 

Well said Jenny.  My great-grand parents were legal immigrants.  Due to the influx of illegal immigrants, I've seen my parents neighborhood housing values fall through the floor, it become dangerous to go out at night or to even park your car in front of their house.  Me and my family have been blockaded in our own driveway, unable to get out because our illegal neighbors were unaware that it was bad form to block your neighbor's driveway.   I've been in two car wrecks with illegal immigrants.  One carload of young Hispanic men hit and run leaving me and my bashed car stranded on the road, the other gave me false insurance papers, another carload totalled my mother's car - a 15 year old was dirving, without a license and without insurance.  My neighborhood was quite a place growing up.  Despite city ordinances against it, we had goats and chickens and a whole yard full of fighting roosters in our neighborhood, courtesy of our illegal immigrant neighbors. 

The local public school system has been overloaded and burdened with children who do not speak the language, the local city ordinance enforcement officers and social services play peek-a-boo with abusive or neglectful parents who do not supervise their children, nor force them to come to school, yet when social services or truant agencies show up, they do not open their doors or when cited, simply move. The local community hospital failed and had to be propped up with additional funding - read taxes of legal immigrants and actual citizens - due to the overwhelming flood of illegal immigrant needs...

There are plenty of illegal immigrants, I'm sure, who simply want to come to the U.S. to improve their status in life and take advantage of the opportunities to better themselves.  However, there are just as many who are here for the social services they cannot get at home and the quick pay and do nothing to be good neighbors or good citizens.

All the above are true experiences of me and my family and needless to say, we are not sympathetic in the least.

[littledarlin]

it really affected my workplace, and all around, traffic was light.  i didn't buy anything today in solidarity.

i agree with several of the sentiments made on this thread, but what people need to realize is that it comes down to racism.  we need to do everything we can to help illegal immigrants become legal, if anything, to help them with healthcare, education, getting fair wages, etc.  this nonense of sending people back for a few years (knowing full well most would not be able to come back) is bs.

i don't think people realize that it is not only mexicans who can be illegal, but people from all over the world.  they wouldn't think twice about deporting a polish person, or an irish person, but if they're from mexico, or the middle east, or india, or africa then they're evil leeches bent on stealing our jobs.  it's those non-white illegal immigrants they're worried about, and not for their safety or well-being, just their old fashioned prejudices.  people can be very ignorant.

deportation is not the answer.  and how quickly we forget how many of us were immigrants in this country.

[starboardlight]

to me the whole debate over immigration is a red herring. politician stirring the bee's nest for the sake of political gain. I agree with littledarling that there is an exploitation of subtle racist sentiments. When we talk about illegal immigrants we all know what kind of illegal immigrants everyone think of. We talk about border control, but which one? the Mexican border. We don't talk about the illegal immigrants coming in from Asia, Eastern Europe, Africa, etc. Living in LA, I've actually met quite a few from Canada and Australia. But no one's bothered by these illegal immigrants. Though we don't think of non-Mexican immigrants, they put as much strain on our resources, in terms of uninsured health costs along with other demands on public services.

that's not what bothers me, however. To me as an econ major graduate, I just don't see how any thing that's being debated in the Congress will actually solve the problem. If they were serious, there needs to be approaches to the situation on both sides of the border. Our leader needs to get into negotiations with the leaders in Mexico to find solutions on both sides. I see the whole thing, right now, as just saber rattling to rally the party faithfuls for the up coming mid term election, on both sides.

[JennyC]

I don’t think I am in much disagreement with Andrew or Starboard here.  I am a Chinese, so when I talk about illegal immigrants, I don’t just mean Mexican or Latino.  There are probably more illegal immigrants from Mexico than from Asia, but essentially people take the same risk or more risk to illegally enter US, just like in the movie “Crash”.  Discrimination comes in many different ways; people are discriminated by class, by race, by sex orientation, by religion, by culture, etc.   Some discrimination are blunt, many are more subtle.  Just because I have a decent job, can speak English, does not mean that I don’t feel being discriminated from time to time.

I don’t support the deportation of illegal immigrants here in US already that are contributing members of the society.  To simply put, the US economy can not afford that and it’s inhumane to send people who have already built their life and family here back to their home country.  For those people, the government should provide a roadmap for them to become legal residents or citizens given if they satisfy certain criteria.  It’s not an amnesty and those people should not get ahead of other people who come here legally and are already in the process. How can the administration handle the volume once a plan is put forward, that’s the big question I have. At the same time, you need to tighten the boarder control (not just US-Mexico border, but all borders by land, by sea, and by air) to reduce more illegal immigrants from coming. 

I don’t think the illegal immigrants issue is a republican vs. democrat issue.  They may use the issue to play politics for mid term, but essentially it’s the same issue both need to face and neither have a good solution for it.

[delalluvia]

I don’t think I am in much disagreement with Andrew or Starboard here.  I am a Chinese, so when I talk about illegal immigrants, I don’t just mean Mexican or Latino.  There are probably more illegal immigrants from Mexico than from Asia, but essentially people take the same risk or more risk to illegally enter US, just like in the movie “Crash”.  Discrimination comes in many different ways; people are discriminated by class, by race, by sex orientation, by religion, by culture, etc.   Some discrimination are blunt, many are more subtle.  Just because I have a decent job, can speak English, does not mean that I don’t feel being discriminated from time to time.

Agree.  The bulk of my experience is with illegal Mexican immigrants because they are the most numerous, but there are also other illegal immigrants that have also impacted our lives.

I don’t support the deportation of illegal immigrants here in US already that are contributing members of the society.  To simply put, the US economy can not afford that and it’s inhumane to send people who have already built their life and family here back to their home country.  For those people, the government should provide a roadmap for them to become legal residents or citizens given if they satisfy certain criteria.  It’s not an amnesty and those people should not get ahead of other people who come here legally and are already in the process. How can the administration handle the volume once a plan is put forward, that’s the big question I have. At the same time, you need to tighten the boarder control (not just US-Mexico boarder, but all boarders by land, by sea, and by air) to reduce more illegal immigrants from coming.

Agree.  It's not that we're forgetting we're a nation of immigrants.  It's just that we haven't forgotten that the majority of historical immigration was legal. 

I don’t think the illegal immigrants issue is a republican vs. democrat issue.  They may use the issue to play politics for mid term, but essentially it’s the same issue both need to face and neither have a good solution for it.

Agree.  The illegal immigrant issue is a serious issue that has always needed to be dealt with simply on the economic problems it causes, now, with threats of terrrorism, the vulnerability of our extensive border areas in the U.S. is even more glaring and the lack of followup on green-card/student visa violations was made all too evident on 9/11.

[littledarlin]

you're so right starboard.  the immigration issue came out of nowhere.  it was to be used as a distraction from other pressing issues, as the administration often does, but it backfired.  i can't imagine they were expecting the response they got yesterday.

and jenny, immigration is definitely not a democrat vs republican issue, but people try to turn it into one.  you're absolutely right though, we need to secure all the borders.  it just kills me that bush can let the UAE control our ports, but the real problem is people coming over here from mexico who want a better life for their families?  yeah.. ok..  that's why it isn't about security, or wanting to help illegals become legal.  it's veiled racism.  we have the biggest debt in history, we're in an unjustified war, and i can't even start the list because there are so many things, and this is their solution?  making people leave their families, their jobs, their friends, their LIFE?  argh!!!

[delalluvia]

it just kills me that bush can let the UAE control our ports, but the real problem is people coming over here from mexico who want a better life for their families?

The problem I have with this argument is yet another one of economics.  I understand refugees and political asylum and people crossing borders to escape persecution.

To cross a border illegally to better one's life?  Um, if they wanted to better their lives, why don't they come here legally?  To come to a nation to better one's self and start this experience by breaking the laws of said country, not paying taxes and using up social services isn't the way to do it and is a slap in the face to this country.

In the example of Mexico, the government of Mexico is not going to feel the pressure it needs to to change its stance on providing services for its own people or try to improve economic conditions for them if many of their citizens know they can always just leave to go to the U.S. if they wanted to.  The people who stay and fight for better conditions in their own country are what cause changes.

The situation isn't going to change if people just bail.

[starboardlight]

To cross a border illegally to better one's life?  Um, if they wanted to better their lives, why don't they come here legally?  To come to a nation to better one's self and start this experience by breaking the laws of said country, not paying taxes and using up social services isn't the way to do it and is a slap in the face to this country.

because it takes money to do it legally, money that they simply don't have. much less the understanding of the US bureaucracy to even comprehend the complex process. Have you looked into what it takes to get a work visa for the US? You have to be sponsored by an employer, in an industry that is high demand for high skill labor. "High skill" reads as jobs requiring college education. Architecture, yes. Janitorial jobs, no, lettuce picking, no. construction, no. The sponsoring employee has to be willing to do the paper, meaning deal with the bureaucracy of the Department of Justice. The employer has to be willing to pay the $2000 application fee, per employee they sponsor. Those two factors alone will deter most employers from hiring non-Americans. In addition to that, the employer has to wait the couple of months for approval. Until then you can't start working. When an employer decided to hire someone, they need someone now, not someone two months from now. And even then, it's not guaranteed, because there is a quota every year for the number of cases the DOJ will approve. So an employer may go through all this, pay $2000 and still not get approval. To get a green card sponsorship is even more frustrating. An employer has to prove that he/she has tried for a year to find qualified workers and failed, so must hire an immigrant. Most do that by placing a want ad in news paper for a certain period of time. The application fee for that is even more prohibitive.

For the low skill workers, there really isn't a viable route for working in the US legally. Let's face it, when you're willing to risk the harsh desert border crossing, you're in an economically desperate situation. I can't fault them for wanting to take that risk. I think I would do the same. The guess worker program will make it easier some workers, but I still don't see it as stemming the tides of illegal immigrants. There will definitely be a quota. In any case the DOJ just can't get to approving all the cases fast enough. They're back logged as it is with legal cases. The usual time for approving green card cases is 5 years. It's stretching out to nearly 10 years now. I have a friend going through this. The DOJ is just approving cases from 1997 right now.

And this is where the resentment from legal immigrants come from. The back log for legal immigration is frustrating enough for those still waiting for their cases to be reviewed, and Congress is putting illegal immigrant issue ahead of theirs. If you've been waiting for nearly 10 years for your green card, and all the sudden illegal immigrants will suddenly get their before yours, you'd be resentful too.

[TJ]

Many years ago, a couple who had travelled from a country south of Mexico came into the USA (I forgot which country it was).

Immigration authorities asked the man and his wife separately why they came to the USA.

Both of them answered to get jobs. They were not allowed to stay in the country.

The news report said that the officials themself said in words to this effect, "If they had asked for political asylum instead since they were from a country which had a dictator and claimed that they wanted to be free, they could have legally stayed."

In the early 1990s, I made two round trips by Amtrak between LA and San Diego. On one of the return trips to LA, just north of San Diego at one of the stops, Immigration folks got on the train. One of them spoke in English to a young man who was in the car that I was in. But, the fellow did not understand what he said. Since I used to be a Spanish teacher, I understood all of the rest of the conversation.

They asked the guy where he was born and he said, "Pasadena." (That's where the Rose Parade takes place.)

Then he was told, if you were born in Pasadena, California, you  would have at least know what I was talking about when I spoke to you in English."

The young man was taken off the train.

I look at this immigration from the POV of a card-carrying Native American (I am a member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.) The English Speaking Europeans came to this part of the world and demanded the Natives forget their natiive tongues and speak only English. Even into the 1st half of the 20th Century, Native children were taken from their parents and put in church own mission schools by the federal goverment.

If the children were heard to speak even one word of their native tongue, they were severely punished. A friend of mine's mother, who was 1/2 Kiowa and 1/2 European whatever, was sent to one of those schools.

I don't have a problem with those who wish to be legally in the USA and want to become American citizens. But, those who want to claim equal rights as American born and naturalized citizens and still be Mexican and send money to support people in Mexico is a different matter.

My friend, Ken, mentioned about the Vietnamese who became citizens after they came to the USA. I told him that quite a few of them actually knew English as second language before they left Nam. (I am a US Army Vietnam veteran.)

[ednbarby]

Andrew, I couldn't agree with you more.  It is veiled racism, and very thinly-veiled at that.

[RouxB]

Nipith-brilliant as always.

If you haven't seen it, I would really recommend renting "A Day Without A Mexican". We get feed so much BS from the government about immigration and the "drain" on society. California's economy is hugely dependent on undocumented workers. The hypocracy just chafes my hinnie.

 

[delalluvia]

To cross a border illegally to better one's life?  Um, if they wanted to better their lives, why don't they come here legally?  To come to a nation to better one's self and start this experience by breaking the laws of said country, not paying taxes and using up social services isn't the way to do it and is a slap in the face to this country.

because it takes money to do it legally, money that they simply don't have. much less the understanding of the US bureaucracy to even comprehend the complex process. Have you looked into what it takes to get a work visa for the US?

Bingo!  Exactly.  Guess what.  Sometimes you don't get what you want in life because it's out of your price range.  Is it therefore justifiable to obtain it illegally?

Ends justifying the means?

That's a can of worms you don't want to open otherwise there's quite a bit in life that I would like but the price range is out of my league.  By this standard, it's OK for me to pursue this desire by any means available, legal or illegal.

I was watching the news and listening to a comment one woman said about keeping her children home so she could show her support and prove to her children that their mother wasn't a 'criminal'.

Then the news went on to comment that the woman had gotten here illegally.

Um, what part of 'breaking the law' concept did she fail to grasp?  This flexibility in ethics/morals is what gets my family bashed by uninsured motorists who happened to be illegal aliens because obeying laws of traffic and getting insurance is something they can take or leave when it suits their purpose.

[sparkle_motion]

To cross a border illegally to better one's life?  Um, if they wanted to better their lives, why don't they come here legally?  To come to a nation to better one's self and start this experience by breaking the laws of said country, not paying taxes and using up social services isn't the way to do it and is a slap in the face to this country.

because it takes money to do it legally, money that they simply don't have. much less the understanding of the US bureaucracy to even comprehend the complex process. Have you looked into what it takes to get a work visa for the US?

Bingo!  Exactly.  Guess what.  Sometimes you don't get what you want in life because it's out of your price range.  Is it therefore justifiable to obtain it illegally?

Ends justifying the means?

That's a can of worms you don't want to open otherwise there's quite a bit in life that I would like but the price range is out of my league.  By this standard, it's OK for me to pursue this desire by any means available, legal or illegal.

I was watching the news and listening to a comment one woman said about keeping her children home so she could show her support and prove to her children that their mother wasn't a 'criminal'.

Then the news went on to comment that the woman had gotten here illegally.

Um, what part of 'breaking the law' concept did she fail to grasp?  This flexibility in ethics/morals is what gets my family bashed by uninsured motorists who happened to be illegal aliens because obeying laws of traffic and getting insurance is something they can take or leave when it suits their purpose.

There's a difference between wanting a more expensive wardrobe/car/house/electronics and wanting to move to another country where your children might not be in danger of dying of starvation and where your children will have a chance in life.

[delalluvia]

To cross a border illegally to better one's life?  Um, if they wanted to better their lives, why don't they come here legally?  To come to a nation to better one's self and start this experience by breaking the laws of said country, not paying taxes and using up social services isn't the way to do it and is a slap in the face to this country.

because it takes money to do it legally, money that they simply don't have. much less the understanding of the US bureaucracy to even comprehend the complex process. Have you looked into what it takes to get a work visa for the US?

Bingo!  Exactly.  Guess what.  Sometimes you don't get what you want in life because it's out of your price range.  Is it therefore justifiable to obtain it illegally?

Ends justifying the means?

That's a can of worms you don't want to open otherwise there's quite a bit in life that I would like but the price range is out of my league.  By this standard, it's OK for me to pursue this desire by any means available, legal or illegal.

I was watching the news and listening to a comment one woman said about keeping her children home so she could show her support and prove to her children that their mother wasn't a 'criminal'.

Then the news went on to comment that the woman had gotten here illegally.

Um, what part of 'breaking the law' concept did she fail to grasp?  This flexibility in ethics/morals is what gets my family bashed by uninsured motorists who happened to be illegal aliens because obeying laws of traffic and getting insurance is something they can take or leave when it suits their purpose.

There's a difference between wanting a more expensive wardrobe/car/house/electronics and wanting to move to another country where your children might not be in danger of dying of starvation and where your children will have a chance in life.

sparkle,

Perhaps, and this is just a thought, if they're lving in such terrible conditions, maybe they shouldn't have had children.  I mean, that's what other people do.  If I can hardly feed myself, why would I want to reproduce and have even MORE mouths to feed?

And also, perhaps in this country, we want to have $$ so we don't starve in the streets since we're working at a job that barely pays the bills let alone leaves any $ for a permanent home or retirement.  Yes, some people in this country end up on the streets as well, despite all the opportunities and good education.

That's a pretty good goal IMO.  What do you think?  Is that worthy of doing something illegal to keep this from happening?  You tell me.

[JennyC]

Is it just me or it’s really hot here?   

[littledarlin]

Is it just me or it’s really hot here?   

lol!  so much to respond to, i don't know where to begin.

Perhaps, and this is just a thought, if they're lving in such terrible conditions, maybe they shouldn't have had children.  I mean, that's what other people do.  If I can hardly feed myself, why would I want to reproduce and have even MORE mouths to feed?

del, that makes perfect sense, and i totally agree with it, but things don't always work out that way.  some people get married, buy a house, have kids, and then lose their jobs.  or run themselves up with debt and file for bankruptcy.  or one of the parents goes crazy and kills someone.  or one of the parents gets eaten by a shark.  i mean we can plan as much as possible, and most people probably don't plan, things just happen and they work with what they have.  people should not be punished for things that happen that are out of their control. 

as far as illegal immigrants being, well, illegal, if we enforced every law, this country would not be in the state it is now.  but instead CEOs run companies to the ground and make out like bandits, corporations outsource illegally do avoid paying taxes, there's fraud, embezzelment, you name it corporate america has done it.  but thanks to lobbyists and no-bid contracts and so on it usually ends up going under the radar, unless you're a woman (see: martha stewart). 

and we are talking billions up here.  BILLIONS.  but people don't care about that.  they care about the mothers on welfare, and the immigrants getting healthcare on their dime.  if we had any say of where out tax dollars went, then maybe an argument about taxpayers money would hold up, but we don't.  i'd rather have my tax dollars going to schools, immigrants, and welfare than war-mongering, churches, and paying right-wingers paychecks.  but what do i do?  quit my job?  live on the street?  as a form of protest?  props to anyone who can do that, but i can't.

nipith got everything right.  i used to wonder the same thing myself when i was younger, why not just come legally.  but when you've been around enough immigrants, you begin to see how hard it is. 

i don't even want to TRAVEL to a non-english speaking country before knowing at least the basics of the language.   but that's just me, and some countries do require you to speak the fluent language, but we can not force people to learn english.  that's what translators are for.  if someone doesn't want to learn, or have the resources to learn english, they should have a say in the matter.  would learning the national language enhance your experience?  yes.  we have to remember that most illegal immigrants come here without high school education, let alone college education.  again, we don't know WHY, every person is different.  i dropped out of high school because i hated it.  i couldn't afford to go to college, and i was born here! 

anyway, back to the argument of "just don't do it".  if i had a dollar for every pregnant teenage american i've met i'd be rich.  so few people plan families, they just happen.  it's the middle class american way.  someone brought up native americans, i mean come on!  by these standards we should all be speaking the dialects for our regions.  and the vietnamese immigrants!  my second family immigrated from vietnam illegally, it took them years, but they finally became legal.  but shit!  if we lived in vietnam after what we did to that country, getting papers would be the last thing on my mind. 

there are SO many issues with this that will take forever to correct.  we just have to remember that we are all human, and as long as we ain't hurtin' nobody, there's no reason to hate eachother.  the land doesn't belong to any one person more than the next, regardless of where they're from. 

sorry, i feel bad.  you all articulate responses, i rant 

[delalluvia]

Perhaps, and this is just a thought, if they're lving in such terrible conditions, maybe they shouldn't have had children.  I mean, that's what other people do.  If I can hardly feed myself, why would I want to reproduce and have even MORE mouths to feed?

del, that makes perfect sense, and i totally agree with it, but things don't always work out that way.  some people get married, buy a house, have kids, and then lose their jobs.  or run themselves up with debt and file for bankruptcy.  or one of the parents goes crazy and kills someone.  or one of the parents gets eaten by a shark.  i mean we can plan as much as possible, and most people probably don't plan, things just happen and they work with what they have.

Hiya little,

I wasn't exactly talking about those people in particular.  I have relatives in Mexico.  I saw dirt dirt dirt poor people and I wondered - even as a kid - why the frick did they have so many chlldren?  Unfortunately that ties into Catholicism and the 'be fruitful and multiply' thing.  The church leaders have a lot to answer for for all the children living in poverty and parents forced to do illegal things to keep them fed.

However, the parents aren't idiots.  They know how babies are made.  If they're living in dire straits, perhaps a little foresight might have done them better than jumping in the sack, you know?

people should not be punished for things that happen that are out of their control.

Don't know what to say to this little.  Almost all life is out of our control.  Are we to do whatever we want whenever we feel that life has treated us badly?  Life is shit sometimes.  No one escapes that.

as far as illegal immigrants being, well, illegal, if we enforced every law, this country would not be in the state it is now.

Sure, but is that to be rewarded?

but instead CEOs run companies to the ground and make out like bandits, corporations outsource illegally do avoid paying taxes, there's fraud, embezzelment, you name it corporate america has done it.  but thanks to lobbyists and no-bid contracts and so on it usually ends up going under the radar, unless you're a woman (see: martha stewart).

Yep, and are they to be rewarded and everyone say, 'Well since you've gotten away with it for so long and you DO contribute to the economy, that makes it OK." ?

and we are talking billions up here.  BILLIONS.  but people don't care about that.

Don't know where you live little, but me and my firends and co-workers cared a great deal about this.  We wrote our representatives and sent scathing editorials to news agencies, making sure they were aware that we - as Jane Q. Public - were not going to let them weasel out of paying for it.

there are SO many issues with this that will take forever to correct.  we just have to remember that we are all human, and as long as we ain't hurtin' nobody, there's no reason to hate eachother.

It's not about hate, it's about the law.  I certainly don't hate immigrants, legal or illegal.  I resent the hell out of some of them, but not all of them.  There's a difference and it's pretty big.

the land doesn't belong to any one person more than the next, regardless of where they're from.

Umm, I think you'll have some people disagree vehemently about this.  Many people from Israel for example, Afrikaaners, Native Americans, etc... 

[sparkle_motion]

Is it just me or it’s really hot here?   

lol!  so much to respond to, i don't know where to begin.

Perhaps, and this is just a thought, if they're lving in such terrible conditions, maybe they shouldn't have had children.  I mean, that's what other people do.  If I can hardly feed myself, why would I want to reproduce and have even MORE mouths to feed?

del, that makes perfect sense, and i totally agree with it, but things don't always work out that way.  some people get married, buy a house, have kids, and then lose their jobs.  or run themselves up with debt and file for bankruptcy.  or one of the parents goes crazy and kills someone.  or one of the parents gets eaten by a shark.  i mean we can plan as much as possible, and most people probably don't plan, things just happen and they work with what they have.  people should not be punished for things that happen that are out of their control. 

as far as illegal immigrants being, well, illegal, if we enforced every law, this country would not be in the state it is now.  but instead CEOs run companies to the ground and make out like bandits, corporations outsource illegally do avoid paying taxes, there's fraud, embezzelment, you name it corporate america has done it.  but thanks to lobbyists and no-bid contracts and so on it usually ends up going under the radar, unless you're a woman (see: martha stewart). 

and we are talking billions up here.  BILLIONS.  but people don't care about that.  they care about the mothers on welfare, and the immigrants getting healthcare on their dime.  if we had any say of where out tax dollars went, then maybe an argument about taxpayers money would hold up, but we don't.  i'd rather have my tax dollars going to schools, immigrants, and welfare than war-mongering, churches, and paying right-wingers paychecks.  but what do i do?  quit my job?  live on the street?  as a form of protest?  props to anyone who can do that, but i can't.

nipith got everything right.  i used to wonder the same thing myself when i was younger, why not just come legally.  but when you've been around enough immigrants, you begin to see how hard it is. 

i don't even want to TRAVEL to a non-english speaking country before knowing at least the basics of the language.   but that's just me, and some countries do require you to speak the fluent language, but we can not force people to learn english.  that's what translators are for.  if someone doesn't want to learn, or have the resources to learn english, they should have a say in the matter.  would learning the national language enhance your experience?  yes.  we have to remember that most illegal immigrants come here without high school education, let alone college education.  again, we don't know WHY, every person is different.  i dropped out of high school because i hated it.  i couldn't afford to go to college, and i was born here! 

anyway, back to the argument of "just don't do it".  if i had a dollar for every pregnant teenage american i've met i'd be rich.  so few people plan families, they just happen.  it's the middle class american way.  someone brought up native americans, i mean come on!  by these standards we should all be speaking the dialects for our regions.  and the vietnamese immigrants!  my second family immigrated from vietnam illegally, it took them years, but they finally became legal.  but shit!  if we lived in vietnam after what we did to that country, getting papers would be the last thing on my mind. 

there are SO many issues with this that will take forever to correct.  we just have to remember that we are all human, and as long as we ain't hurtin' nobody, there's no reason to hate eachother.  the land doesn't belong to any one person more than the next, regardless of where they're from. 

sorry, i feel bad.  you all articulate responses, i rant 

Thanks for this. I wish I could be as articulate as you.

[juneaux]

I didn't stay home from work yesterday but I did take a few hours of leave to join the march at the Capitol. 

[littledarlin]

thanks for the responses del!  i don't think illegals should be rewarded necessarily, but they shouldn't be punished either.  but they should be guided, helped, to become legal.  instead of being shipped back to where they came from like freight.  there are millions of illegal immigrants in this country!  that is no small feat.  is it their fault for coming here, or is it the governments fault for letting them?  for not keeping the borders secured?  for not keeping immigration under control, even with legals?  it's not that it isn't an issue, i think we can all agree it is, it's how it's going to be handled.  it has just now come to the forefront of public view because the administration thought they could use it to their advantage, it's political.  as most problems are, and that's why they never get solved. 

as far as my comment on land, all political and religious ideals aside, it's just there.  the government grants itself control over the land, and deals out the property to those who can afford it.  but what it comes down to is it belongs to no one and everyone.  i know this is not the case in reality, but just for perspective. 

and on "breaking the law" or calling an illegal immigrant a criminal, i mean let's be honest here.  the law is relative.  whoever is enforcing the law chooses whether or not to do so.  anywhere from corporate scandals to speeding tickets.  it's luck.  it's coincidence.  people can even get away with murder if they have enough money to spend.  it's sad, but it's true.  i know it's orwellian, but some laws or more "breakable" than others.  i think it's unfair to criminalize illegal immigrants who are civil, decent people just trying to make a living.  but if someone breaks the law beyond that, then by all means punish them.  but it's such a double-standard.  i mean our own government is breaking the law every day.  wire-tapping, spying, outing cia agents, torture, fraud, stealing elections.

i don't disagree with you, it's just not a situation that can be taken at face value.  it's much deeper and complex than "they're breaking the law". 

[starboardlight]

To cross a border illegally to better one's life?  Um, if they wanted to better their lives, why don't they come here legally?  To come to a nation to better one's self and start this experience by breaking the laws of said country, not paying taxes and using up social services isn't the way to do it and is a slap in the face to this country.

because it takes money to do it legally, money that they simply don't have. much less the understanding of the US bureaucracy to even comprehend the complex process. Have you looked into what it takes to get a work visa for the US?

Bingo!  Exactly.  Guess what.  Sometimes you don't get what you want in life because it's out of your price range.  Is it therefore justifiable to obtain it illegally?

Ends justifying the means?

That's a can of worms you don't want to open otherwise there's quite a bit in life that I would like but the price range is out of my league.  By this standard, it's OK for me to pursue this desire by any means available, legal or illegal.

I was watching the news and listening to a comment one woman said about keeping her children home so she could show her support and prove to her children that their mother wasn't a 'criminal'.

Then the news went on to comment that the woman had gotten here illegally.

Um, what part of 'breaking the law' concept did she fail to grasp?  This flexibility in ethics/morals is what gets my family bashed by uninsured motorists who happened to be illegal aliens because obeying laws of traffic and getting insurance is something they can take or leave when it suits their purpose.

You're right, del. the ends don't justify the means. I'm saying, as i said in my first post, the reforms being talked about don't address the heart of the issue. The legal routes aren't accessible to these people who are in very desperate situations. How do we hold that regal route in their face, when they have no way to reach it? If you look at it from their point of view, what do laws matter if you can't feed your children? To make it matter to them, we have to have a law that recognize their plight. Tighter borders won't change their situations. Punishing employers won't change the situation for them either. It's too easy to just say they're criminals breaking the law, but that won't solve the situation. The real solution has to come from compassion and humanity. That's not what I'm seeing from our leaders, at all. There has a be joint effort on both sides of the border. Perhaps a deal where, in exchange for a guess worker program, Mexico has to do more to stem the tide of immigration, such as offer assistance to their poor in find jobs, housing, etc. That would be a start maybe, but still a long way from solving the situation. I just don't see the debate really addressing the cause. We're just looking at the symptoms.

Perhaps, and this is just a thought, if they're lving in such terrible conditions, maybe they shouldn't have had children.  I mean, that's what other people do.  If I can hardly feed myself, why would I want to reproduce and have even MORE mouths to feed?

that just gets into a whole other can of worms. Remember Mexico has a large Catholic population, whose spiritual leaders tell them they can't use any kind of contraception. This is where my resentment of the Church rears its head. For the largely under-educated, there isn't much alternative. Using condoms and pills means eternal damnation, but no one tells them what are the alternatives. We know that the sexual urges is primal and essential to human existence. To ask people to deny that is just plain stupid. In countries where children are born everyday into poverty, the church must take responsibility in controlling that situation.

[delalluvia]

Hiya star and little,

Yep, it's a big issue and a complicated issue.

Goodness no.  Whoever suggested 'shipping 'em all home' was a maniac.  11 million people?  OK, Stalin and the Nazis managed to do it, but train cattle cars is waaaaaaaaay beyond the pale here.  But something has to be done, because it is a sticky wicket.  While some illegal immigrants are practically the proverbial American success story, others can and do make negative impacts in local economies, they can and do overwhelm social services and public schooling.  They're nearly impossible to police since they don't speak the language, are extremely mobile, don't abide by many of the laws, do spend a great deal of time hiding from the authorities.  What the government is proposing in immigration reform won't do the trick.  Problem is, I'm not sure what will.  It's impossible to police our borders, but with all the terrorism dangers, it's imperative that we do. 

As far as economics, I just was on another board and read this:

If the argument is that "migrants do the work that Americans won't", then won't they cease to be willing to do the work once they are Americans? That is, once they have rights, why would they work there?

Other poster:  They drive wages down, Americans won't work for the wages these illegals do, therefore creating the jobs that Americans won't do, whereas BEFORE they were here and driving wages down, Americans DID do those jobs.

Other poster:  They will pay more in taxes, some will form unions, migrate to other (better paying) work, some go on social secutiry, etc. Yes, wages will start to rise in low skilled jobs and then new illegals will flood into the US, displacing the them and the prior native workers. Then, like Cesar Chevez, they will realize that "new" illegals are economic threats to "old" illegals.

This had occured to me as well.  If all the illegal immigrants become legal, won't they start demanding the same pay scale and job protections as other Americans?  Suddenly it won't be so cheap to hire them as unskilled labor and businesses that thrive because they hired illegals and had no overhead (a friend of a friend is making a killing in a landscaping business.  He has hard working illegals working for him and he doesn't give them anything beyond what he promised to pay them - no insurance, no benefits, no 401K, nada, nothing.  I wonder how long he'd stay in business if he suddenly had to start coughing up health insurance.) will suddenly have problems staying in the black.

It's a big deal economically speaking and that always trumps compassion and humanity.  The illegals are here to make more money than they could at home.  Hardly any compassion there - strictly cold hard numbers.

Yes, laws can be relative, but they don't have to be.  It can be just that simple.  They're breaking the law.  I work for a law firm.  I hear many many many sob stories about how people ended up in the situation they did.  Every lawbreaker out there has a sob story.  If we're going to give EVERYone the benefit of the doubt, why have laws?   

If legal relativism becomes more common, then the laws no longer have teeth and we're no longer in a society that upholds the law.  We're now a 3rd world country or Capone's Chicago where we can just buy off a policeman or fireman or government clerk and get whatever we want done regardless of the legality of it.  We're almost there now and it isn't a pretty picture.  Yes our government has shown the ugly face of spying on its own citizens.  But of course, if you read the rationale, it makes perfect sense why they do.  Is it right for them to do so?  Depends on what you're trying to accomplish.  The old 'yelling fire' in a crowded theater example comes to mind when I consider that.

Yes, the better lawyer you have the more often you get off from any charge.  But what is that but rampant capitalism?  You get what you can pay for.  Can't get more 'American' than that.

[JennyC]

Phew, that was a lot of discussion since I checked this thread .  We all obviously feel passionate on this issue.  Read through the posts, I think everyone agrees that deportation is not the solution for the existing 11million illegal immigrants (or undocumented workers).  Hopefully, we can settle that argument.

On the future prevention side, the center issue is whether it’s justifiable for people to come here illegally to improve their life and that of their children’s.  The arguments on both sides have been presented.   It’s not the motivation that has been questioned here, but the means of carrying out such motivation.  I know, I know.  We talked about there is no legal way for these immigrants to come here, or they can not afford to come here legally.  Then this is something that should be changed to provide an affordable and practical way for low skilled immigrant workers to come here legally. 

The thing is there are more people want to come to US than the US economy and resources can ever absorb (well there are some people here who want to move to other counties after the election, but that’s another issue ).   When you talk about the illegal immigrants from Mexico and other close by South American counties, think about the people who also want to pursue the American dream in Africa and in Asia.  They are certainly at the disadvantage here since it’s far more difficult for them to come here, legally or illegally.  So let’s see what the options we have here:

1.   Open the door to welcome everyone (I mean EVERYONE) who wants come here to pursue the American dream and be a contributing member of the society.
2.   Let proximity play its charm: if you manage to get to US, then we will recognize you and give you legal status.  For the sisters and brothers in Africa and Asia, sorry you guys are at disadvantage here since you are too far away.  By the way, since we already have so many immigrants within the region, we really can not afford to have more from your country, even legally.
3.   Since resources are limited, then some rules need to be set up in terms of how you can come here, and how many US can accommodate.  This means not everyone’s requests will be accommodated, but everyone should get a fair chance.  If you don’t play by the rule, then there should be some consequences, otherwise it’s not fair to other people who play by the rule when you gain unfair advantage over them.   

Seriously, there is no perfect solution that makes everyone happy.  It’s the typical dilemma between ideology and reality. Unfortunate, reality is what matters the most.  You have to pick, not between good and bad choices, but lesser of the evils.  You have to go with one that is practical and relatively fair to everyone.

Let me just add one last thing. Once we sort out who can get here and how, let’s all work even harder to treat everyone fairly and do not discriminate them.

[starboardlight]

Phew, that was a lot of discussion since I checked this thread .  We all obviously feel passionate on this issue.  Read through the posts, I think everyone agrees that deportation is not the solution for the existing 11million illegal immigrants (or undocumented workers).  Hopefully, we can settle that argument.

On the future prevention side, the center issue is whether it’s justifiable for people to come here illegally to improve their life and that of their children’s.  The arguments on both sides have been presented.   It’s not the motivation that has been questioned here, but the means of carrying out such motivation.  I know, I know.  We talked about there is no legal way for these immigrants to come here, or they can not afford to come here legally.  Then this is something that should be changed to provide an affordable and practical way for low skilled immigrant workers to come here legally. 

The thing is there are more people want to come to US than the US economy and resources can ever absorb (well there are some people here who want to move to other counties after the election, but that’s another issue ).   When you talk about the illegal immigrants from Mexico and other close by South American counties, think about the people who also want to pursue the American dream in Africa and in Asia.  They are certainly at the disadvantage here since it’s far more difficult for them to come here, legally or illegally.  So let’s see what the options we have here:

1.   Open the door to welcome everyone (I mean EVERYONE) who wants come here to pursue the American dream and be a contributing member of the society.
2.   Let proximity play its charm: if you manage to get to US, then we will recognize you and give you legal status.  For the sisters and brothers in Africa and Asia, sorry you guys are at disadvantage here since you are too far away.  By the way, since we already have so many immigrants within the region, we really can not afford to have more from your country, even legally.
3.   Since resources are limited, then some rules need to be set up in terms of how you can come here, and how many US can accommodate.  This means not everyone’s requests will be accommodated, but everyone should get a fair chance.  If you don’t play by the rule, then there should be some consequences, otherwise it’s not fair to other people who play by the rule when you gain unfair advantage over them.   

Seriously, there is no perfect solution that makes everyone happy.  It’s the typical dilemma between ideology and reality. Unfortunate, reality is what matters the most.  You have to pick, not between good and bad choices, but lesser of the evils.  You have to go with one that is practical and relatively fair to everyone.

Let me just add one last thing. Once we sort out who can get here and how, let’s all work even harder to treat everyone fairly and do not discriminate them.

that's just it, there is no solution if we only look at immigration as the issue. let look at why people want to come. people are in desperate economic situations where they live, and they think the answer is here in the US. That's why Mexico as a country need to address this issue too, and we're not pushing the Mexican leaders hard enough to deal with it. The tide of immigrants will decrease if people feel like they have a future in their home country. How we achieve that is not in border patrol and criminalization of people. It's going to take a serious and different approach to what's being discussed.

[delalluvia]

It does beg the question though, is there a particular reason in this country that we NEED to have an open door immigration policy anymore?  I can see the need in some instances, persecution, etc., but why else?

How many people do we need in this country?  We already have 400 million people in this country, I'm not sure if that number includes all the undocumented aliens.  I'm sure 400 million people will have no trouble reproducing.

Are we really lacking in manpower in this country that we need more new immigrants?

For people in desperate financial straits overseas, is there nowhere else for them to go but here?  Surely there are more options for them closer to home.

[starboardlight]

I'm not sure the term "open door" is even applicable to the the policy as it exist now. it's more like "invitations only". As i've described, the legal immigration route is accessible for the most part only to those whose skills are in the labor markets that are experiencing low labor supply. The tech sector, despite what the hubbub, still don't produce enough Americans engineers and scientists. The creative services sector also go through periods of ups and downs in available labor supply. Nursing as industry is looking at a major shortage in the near future. These are just examples. And of course the low skill labor supply is an economic issue that America has yet to really tackle. In order to fill our needs for workers and continue our economic progress and technological leadership, America needs to replenish it's labor supply.

Two other routes are something I have looked into very much. Talent based visa, for athletes, singers, actors are obviously highly selective. I don't know how that all works. And then we have immigration through family relationships. We have a policy that anyone born on American soil automatically becomes a citizen, parent can then petition to for green cards themselves. And of course getting green cards through marriage. I don't know how significant a number of immigrants take these routes. It's talked about but no one seems to present any numbers on this.

[JennyC]

starboard,

I agree that the current H1-B process is not very accessible for most of the illegal immigrants here today.  I certainly hope now that people recognize the need for low skilled worker to fill jobs that are not very appealing to normal US work force, whatever new “Guess Worker” program that are in the work should be designed to meet the needs of the targeted audience, both from the employer and the potential employee perspectives.  They should not be held at the same H1-B standard.

Illegal immigrants issue is not unique in US.  Many counties are facing the same issue, just at different magnitude.  US certainly have the worst illegal immigrants issue in terms of the no. of illegal immigrants.  I have to say that if you look around the world, US actually has one of the most open immigration policy than most of the counties.  It’s much harder to immigrate to most of the European counties, skilled or not.   

[starboardlight]

I'm curious Jenny, are you going through the H1-B process, yourself?

[JennyC]

I'm curious Jenny, are you going through the H1-B process, yourself?

I have gone throug H1-B and greencard process.  I am out of that woods for a few years now.

[starboardlight]

I have gone throug H1-B and greencard process.  I am out of that woods for a few years now.

that's good to hear. congrats. some of my college friends are coming up on the last years of their H1-B and have to serious consider doing the Green card process. It's really require quite a bit of forethought. a delay on the DOJ's part and there could be a gap between H1-B status and green card, putting them in illegal status.

[opinionista]

I wasn't exactly talking about those people in particular.  I have relatives in Mexico.  I saw dirt dirt dirt poor people and I wondered - even as a kid - why the frick did they have so many chlldren?  Unfortunately that ties into Catholicism and the 'be fruitful and multiply' thing.

Actually that's not quite true. While Catholic church does encourage married couples to have children, in countries like Mexico, Ecuador and others, the great majorities of women who have children are single mothers. Some are raped, others had a boyfriend who got them pregnant and dumped them after finding out about it. Saddly safe sex is not an option for most of them. Most of these women have no access to anticonceptives and let alone to sexual education.

I have to say that if you look around the world, US actually has one of the most open immigration policy than most of the counties.

Do you know this for a fact? Because I have heard quite the contrary. It's way harder to get a working permit in the US than it is in other countries such like Spain. I am an immigrant myself. I was born an American Citizen and moved to Spain seven years ago. I didn't have much trouble getting a permit. And Spain is a country with heavy immigration issues. It's as bad here as it is there. This country receives over 1000 of illegal immigrants a day coming mostly from African countries. Spain cannot deport them because it has no agreements with the countries these people come from. It's a terrible situation.

[JennyC]

that's good to hear. congrats. some of my college friends are coming up on the last years of their H1-B and have to serious consider doing the Green card process. It's really require quite a bit of forethought. a delay on the DOJ's part and there could be a gap between H1-B status and green card, putting them in illegal status.

Thanks. We just did what a lot of people did at the time without giving that much of thoughts.  And we got pretty lucky with the whole process before things get really frustrating.  Whether or not we want to move forward with the next step, that's something we really need to think through.  There are many things I really like here, some I don't, but I still don't feel quite at home here.  I appreciate my life experience here very much, it changed me in many different ways (including my view on homosexuality), but there is still part of me that really miss the Chinese culture.  I always joke about how I fall into the crack of two completely different cultures, but that’s what I am, not quite American, not quite Chinese.   

[opinionista]

lol!  so much to respond to, i don't know where to begin.

del, that makes perfect sense, and i totally agree with it, but things don't always work out that way.  some people get married, buy a house, have kids, and then lose their jobs.  or run themselves up with debt and file for bankruptcy.  or one of the parents goes crazy and kills someone.  or one of the parents gets eaten by a shark.  i mean we can plan as much as possible, and most people probably don't plan, things just happen and they work with what they have.  people should not be punished for things that happen that are out of their control. 

as far as illegal immigrants being, well, illegal, if we enforced every law, this country would not be in the state it is now.  but instead CEOs run companies to the ground and make out like bandits, corporations outsource illegally do avoid paying taxes, there's fraud, embezzelment, you name it corporate america has done it.  but thanks to lobbyists and no-bid contracts and so on it usually ends up going under the radar, unless you're a woman (see: martha stewart). 

and we are talking billions up here.  BILLIONS.  but people don't care about that.  they care about the mothers on welfare, and the immigrants getting healthcare on their dime.  if we had any say of where out tax dollars went, then maybe an argument about taxpayers money would hold up, but we don't.  i'd rather have my tax dollars going to schools, immigrants, and welfare than war-mongering, churches, and paying right-wingers paychecks.  but what do i do?  quit my job?  live on the street?  as a form of protest?  props to anyone who can do that, but i can't.

nipith got everything right.  i used to wonder the same thing myself when i was younger, why not just come legally.  but when you've been around enough immigrants, you begin to see how hard it is. 

i don't even want to TRAVEL to a non-english speaking country before knowing at least the basics of the language.   but that's just me, and some countries do require you to speak the fluent language, but we can not force people to learn english.  that's what translators are for.  if someone doesn't want to learn, or have the resources to learn english, they should have a say in the matter.  would learning the national language enhance your experience?  yes.  we have to remember that most illegal immigrants come here without high school education, let alone college education.  again, we don't know WHY, every person is different.  i dropped out of high school because i hated it.  i couldn't afford to go to college, and i was born here! 

anyway, back to the argument of "just don't do it".  if i had a dollar for every pregnant teenage american i've met i'd be rich.  so few people plan families, they just happen.  it's the middle class american way.  someone brought up native americans, i mean come on!  by these standards we should all be speaking the dialects for our regions.  and the vietnamese immigrants!  my second family immigrated from vietnam illegally, it took them years, but they finally became legal.  but shit!  if we lived in vietnam after what we did to that country, getting papers would be the last thing on my mind. 

there are SO many issues with this that will take forever to correct.  we just have to remember that we are all human, and as long as we ain't hurtin' nobody, there's no reason to hate eachother.  the land doesn't belong to any one person more than the next, regardless of where they're from. 

sorry, i feel bad.  you all articulate responses, i rant 

I agree with you, littledarling.

[JennyC]

Do you know this for a fact? Because I have heard quite the contrary. It's way harder to get a working permit in the US than it is in other countries such like Spain.

Honestly, I don’t know about Spain.  I think if you compare US’s immigration policy with that of UK, France, Germany, China, Japan, it’s more open.  Not to mention all the oil rich gulf counties, there is no way they will let a foreigner to become their citizen.  

Also whether or not it’s hard to come to US is all relative to people’s perception.  If more people want to come to US, and US can only accommodate so many, I am sure people will say it’s way harder to come to US than some of counties.  If you ask the people in line to obtain a student visa or visiting visa in front of US embassy in China, they will tell you it’s the hardest thing in the world. But the fact is US allows more foreigners to come here study/work than most of the counties.  It also provide a roadmap to contain permanent residency here (whatever flawed the system is, at least there is one).  I know in many counties, this simply is not an option.  

[opinionista]

Honestly, I don’t know about Spain.  I think if you compare US’s immigration policy with that of UK, France, Germany, China, Japan, it’s more open.  Not to mention all the oil rich gulf counties, there is no way they will let a foreigner to become their citizen.  

Also whether or not it’s hard to come to US is all relative to people’s perception.  If more people want to come to US, and US can only accommodate so many, I am sure people will say it’s way harder to come to US than some of counties.  If you ask the people in line to obtain a student visa or visiting visa in front of US embassy in China, they will tell you it’s the hardest thing in the world. But the fact is US allows more foreigners to come here study/work than most of the counties.  It also provide a roadmap to contain permanent residency here (whatever flawed the system is, at least there is one).  I know in many counties, this simply is not an option.  

Well, I have met a few people from different Latin American countries who unsuccesfully tried  to obtain a student visa after being admitted to american universities. Some came from wealthy families and others even had scholarships. They ended up going to school in Spain, others went to England because there was no way they could get a visa.

Also, I remember about five years ago I went to buy a plane ticket to go home for the holidays at a Travel Agency. I have a very Spanish last name (I'm Puerto Rican) and they wouldn't let me buy the ticket until I provided them with proof that I have a permit to enter the States. I didn't have that problem when I came to Spain the first time, nor when I went to England, France or Greece. I have heard terrible stories about obtaining a visa to go to US. I invited a few friends to come to Puerto Rico with me and they couldn't go because US immigration wouldn't give them a tourist visa because they're velezuelan and chilean. Perhaps chinese people have it easier for other reasons, but it's tough.

[starboardlight]

Thanks. We just did what a lot of people did at the time without giving that much of thoughts.  And we got pretty lucky with the whole process before things get really frustrating.  Whether or not we want to move forward with the next step, that's something we really need to think through.  There are many things I really like here, some I don't, but I still don't feel quite at home here.  I appreciate my life experience here very much, it changed me in many different ways (including my view on homosexuality), but there is still part of me that really miss the Chinese culture.  I always joke about how I fall into the crack of two completely different cultures, but that’s what I am, not quite American, not quite Chinese.   

oh, it's more than a joke to be sure. I was born in Thailand. My grandparents are Chinese. I grew up here in the US. I know exactly what you mean about not feeling quite belonging to either countries.

[delalluvia]

I wasn't exactly talking about those people in particular.  I have relatives in Mexico.  I saw dirt dirt dirt poor people and I wondered - even as a kid - why the frick did they have so many chlldren?  Unfortunately that ties into Catholicism and the 'be fruitful and multiply' thing.

Actually that's not quite true. While Catholic church does encourage married couples to have children, in countries like Mexico, Ecuador and others, the great majorities of women who have children are single mothers. Some are raped, others had a boyfriend who got them pregnant and dumped them after finding out about it. Saddly safe sex is not an option for most of them. Most of these women have no access to anticonceptives and let alone to sexual education.

I can see that, however, we don't see many single Ecuadorian mothers trying to cross the border illegally.  They have quite a ways to go and the costs of paying just to get close to the U.S. is beyond their means, I'm sure.

I can't fault the rape victims of course, but those with boyfriends should know better and knew they were taking a chance.  Life gives no guarantees.  They may not have access to sex education, but they DO know where babies come from.  That's easy to see from watching their neighbors.  The young girls who get pregnant?  I'm sure they have parents or at least a caretaker who probably would have wanted them to stay 'pure' until they got married.  Somewhere in there a contraceptive choice - abstinence - was bypassed.

 

[sparkle_motion]

We are all the same, all human. I don't see why someone shouldn't be given a chance at a better life simply because they weren't born on this soil. I don't think there's any argument one can make that would have me believe otherwise. I don't care where you're from, if I have an opportunity for you that will possibly give you a better place in life, you can have it.

[delalluvia]

I certainly hope now that people recognize the need for low skilled worker to fill jobs that are not very appealing to normal US work force

Hiya Jenny,

I would be curious to see if it actually had any real impact.  The walkouts hit the segments of industries and businesses that lean heavily on undocumented workers.  For everyone else, it was just a blip.  Many people did not notice and would not have had they not watched the news.  I had known about the potential walkout, but forgot about it during my Monday workday and didn't even realize it had happened until I went home and watched the news, nothing in my day had been affected and I paid attention the rest of the week to see if perhaps there was some note taken by my friends or co-workers.

No one said anything.  Some even joked that 'Boy, traffic was way down, it was great.'  A caller in to a local radio station joked that "All the illegals stayed home today.  It was great to not have to see any illegals!'

Obviously in Texas, a conservative border state, attitudes are a bit harsher toward illegal immigration.

[delalluvia]

We are all the same, all human. I don't see why someone shouldn't be given a chance at a better life simply because they weren't born on this soil. I don't think there's any argument one can make that would have me believe otherwise. I don't care where you're from, if I have an opportunity for you that will possibly give you a better place in life, you can have it.

Hiya sparkle,

From what I've gotten from friends/co-workers etc, it isn't that people aren't human, it's just that real life isn't Disneyland.  Not everyone on the planet is going to 'make it' and there is no rule, no law, no nothing that says that everyone should.  It's just a really nice social construct that we imagine that they should.  It's unfair, sure.  But life is unfair.

I don't agree that everyone 'can have it', the reasons the laws are in place is because opportunities that abound are finite.  Every job an illegal takes, a legal immigrant or perhaps a citizen loses.

[rtprod]

This whole thread really bothers me perhaps because I refuse to acknowlege the term

illegal alien which is a derogatory slap to millions of honest and law-abiding residents. 

There is no such thing as an illegal human being, and this earth belongs to all of us, so the term undocumented worker is appropriate, and no, that's not just a left-leaning rationalization, it's the truth. 

Some of the comments on this thread are incredibly insensitive and making sweeping statements about Mexican immigrants, which make me very uncomfortable since I live amongst many of those "illegals" in a metropolitan city and see taxpaying, productive families whose children are bilingual, bright, and who want to get ahead in life like everyone else.

In case you're not aware of it, the average Mexican cannot, by immigration standards, legally emigrate to the United States.  Try being Mexican and getting a passport and/or visa to get on a plane from Mexico to the US and you'll see how it works.  You're forced to prove ties to Mexico, financial (which most don't have) or career (fewer still), and it's not do-able.

To those who say that their grandparents came here legally, well congratulations to them -- the immigration laws that exist now make that next to impossible for the majority of those on Earth.  At that time, they were welcomed. 

People, come on.  Equating immigrants with crime is just ridiculous.  If you put a human face on these people--the majority of whom are just like you and me--it's not so easy to dismiss them. 

This whole discussion has left a bad taste in my mouth, and perhaps I need to read the comments more closely but I stopped reading about halfway down the thread. 

rt

[rtprod]

I have to say that if you look around the world, US actually has one of the most open immigration policy than most of the counties.

I'd like to see some documentation on this as well, since we live in a land of opportunity that US immigration consistently withholds from foreign nationals.  I have gone through the immigration process myself step by step (though not for myself), and I'm not ashamed to say that I helped a pair of gay friends engage in a green card marriage (successfully, I might add though it took a lot of money, headaches, nerves and waiting) because the ridiculous state of things in this country with regard to legalizing long-term residents who are out of status left them no options and I saw them crying for years, exploited by jobs, long hours, paying social security they would never reap and the rest.  You have no idea how painful it is to see a friend cry over a parent's funeral in another country that they simply cannot attend for fear of never getting back into this wonderful place.  For every blocked driveway, they are paying a hefty price of their own. 

Let's stop fooling ourselves how progressive everything is here -- looked at the current administration lately?  Gay marriage is legal in Belgium, Canada and other places, guys.  Sorry to jump to another issue but I have a gay friend who is an undocumented Mexican immigrant here in the US, who is learning Dutch and moving to Belgium right now.  Why? 

Because they will take him.  As he is. 

Sad state of things, I have to say. 

[rtprod]

Also, if anyone would like further information about just how terrifying and crime-ridden the trip to the US from south of the border can be, please just ask me and I'll write more about safe houses, deaths, drownings, stolen money, rapes, etc.  For those who would prefer to think that people just "swim" their way here for the hell of it to take advantage of American programs and institutions, you've got your head in the sand.

Those who come want it so badly their lives hang in the balance, and that's the kind of spirit that founded this country, in case anyone has forgotten. 

Read this book and you'll get it:

http://www.harpercollins.com/global_scripts/product_catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060789441

rt

[sparkle_motion]

Read this book and you'll get it:

http://www.harpercollins.com/global_scripts/product_catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060789441

rt

I remember when that happened here in Texas. A lot of people expressed the sentiment "Well, they deserved it, they shouldn't have been breaking the law".
Utterly despicable.

[rtprod]

I remember when that happened here in Texas. A lot of people expressed the sentiment "Well, they deserved it, they shouldn't have been breaking the law".

Well, that's typical of the way we tend to see most global plights beyond our comforts and privileges.

Dunno why many can't question whether some laws that may be constitutional might also be antiquated and not humane. 

rt

[rtprod]

From what I've gotten from friends/co-workers etc, it isn't that people aren't human, it's just that real life isn't Disneyland.  Not everyone on the planet is going to 'make it' and there is no rule, no law, no nothing that says that everyone should.  It's just a really nice social construct that we imagine that they should.  It's unfair, sure.  But life is unfair.

I don't agree that everyone 'can have it', the reasons the laws are in place is because opportunities that abound are finite.  Every job an illegal takes, a legal immigrant or perhaps a citizen loses.

Del,

I love you dearly, you know that much.  But that just smacks of idealism and not reality.  Compared to these people, our lives are Disneyland.  Period.  I don't understand why it's so hard to admit that while immigration advocates like me are not advocating open borders by any means, we are attempting to adjust what is largely, on both sides of the house, considered an inequity and unfair bitch of an unsatisfactory situation for 12 million people. 

Why can't everyone "have it?"  The message last Monday was clear.  If you removed the "illegals" as you call them from society, particularly cities, you would see a complete debilitation in the efficiency of your own life -- your clothes would not get cleaned, your bus would not arrive, your dishes would not be washed, your hotel room not straightened, your food would go unprepared, your vegetables unharvested, your taxis would not be driven, your gardening not done, your home not cleaned, your cable TV not installed, your.... should I keep going? 

This is a very large social issue that cannot be addressed with ideals like what "should" be -- we need to address what simply IS.  Undocumented workers can get TIN numbers, they can get driver's licenses in some places and they can even buy homes.  And they are doing all of these things, and planning for the future.  It's naive for anyone to deny these privileges they have rightfully earned just because some silly law on the books doesn't measure up to the situation in this country today.  The law needs to be changed, period. 

And when that law changes, and they are suddently not looked at as second class citizens anymore but rather, equal citizens, then what?  Will American society crumble?  No, it will get stronger and more diverse.  And THAT is the real issue for many today that they would prefer not to admit -- the diversification of our culture makes many very, very uncomfortable. 

rt

[Sheyne]

I remember asking a class of 8 year olds on "Multiculturalism Day" last year: "why should we let people from other countries come to our country?"  Believe me, 24 hands shot up into the air. The first kid replied "why shouldn't we?"  the next kid replied "well cause they have cool stuff like pizza and we wouldn't know about it if they didn't come here" and another kid said "cause its probably really bad where they come from. They might not have anywhere to live and since we have lots of room here, they should be allowed to come here instead".

They were 8 year olds and they get it!! On a much simpler scale of course, but they understand. I'm an immigration advocate too, lemme say.

This is a very interesting thread...

[rtprod]

Sheyne,

Funny how kids see the obvious.  Recently a friend told me that she and her husband were going through some serious problems and when she tried to explain to her eight-year-old how they did not see eye to eye on anything anymore, and that happens to some people, her daughter said:

"Well, at least you agree on the furniture and stuff." 

It's a little funny and a little sad that this child would see that her parents could connect on superficial things and not on anything else.   

rt

[Sheyne]

Three little words I have learnt since becoming a teacher and a mum:

KIDS.... MISS.... NOTHING.

They are perceptive, they are smart and they know more than anybody gives them credit for. My son is the best loser-radar I have. If he doesn't like someone, I pay close attention.

In fact, if we had kids solving the worlds problems, i think the world would be a better place!!  Talk about tough love -  they're not afraid to actually be honest!!  I remember sitting near a woman and her young son in a cafeteria. Somebody walked past their table and stopped to chat to the mum.  After a while, she introduced the woman to her son.  (i observed all this through the corner of my eye.... honest!!!  God I love people watching and here's why:) The son scrutinised the woman's face for a few moments and then said in this big loud voice "Well, Mrs (can't remember the name), if you're two-faced like mum says, why don't you wear your best face for going out places?" 

Talk about ooops. 

[opinionista]

You know there's something about this whole immigration issue that bothers me. Some people have stated, not necessarily on this board, that part of the solution to stop illegal immigration, lies in reinforcing surveillance on the US-Mexican borders and approving laws that violate human rights like the one Bush is seeking to approve. Law makers do not seem to realize those solutions are useless. Their effect is the same as curing a deep wound with a band-aid. A person who is dying from hunger would do anything in their power to cross the border and to stay in the country. It's very hard to stop them. They always find a way to go in and stay and no law can actually stop that.

To give you an example, Spain recently reinforced a huge and large fence they have in their african territories of Ceuta and Melilla to stop morrocans and africans to enter the country illegaly. They did a piece on this in the news and you could see those immigrant doing anything to jump that large fence. They didn't mind getting all tangled up on the barb wires. The situation is so bad that Spanish Red Cross put up a camp accross the fence, in Spain's territory, to cure their wounds or take care of their corpses. A lot of them die, either from the falls or the bullets shot by immigration police, but that doesn't stop the ones that come behind.

One TV news station did a piece about some of the countries where most illegal immigrant in Spain come from. And all you could see were those skinny little african kids we see Angelia Jolie and Brad Pitt hugging and kissing in People Magazine pictures. It turns out that the ones who try desperately to jump that fence are mostly parents, brothers, sisters or other relatives of those little kids. It was very heart breaking.

Well, my point is that the real solution to illegal immigration lies in doing something to help those countries either in Latin America or Africa to overcome their economic problems so people don't have to migrate. I'm sure all of them would rather stay home that having to go to such an terrible experience. Moving to a country where you don't speak the language or don't know anybody is tough. I know the solution is actually in the hands of those countries' government and politicians but the US need to back off.  The United States Government claims illegal immigration is taking a toll in the economy, social services and so to speak but when a poor country like Venezuela or Bolivia decides to nationalize their natural resources to solve their economic problems US doesn't support them. I'm not sure what Bush have said about Evo Morales plans, but he has tried to put Chaves government down because of the oil issue. This doesn't make sense to me.

[JennyC]

Ok, everyone take a deep deep breath.   Let’s respect our differences and don’t get frustrated, because it could only cloud our judgment, and maybe misinterpret things that have been said here.   I just feel some points have been missed or misinterpreted here, but could not pin point where as the thread gets longer.

There are two aspect of the issue.  One deals with the existing illegal immigrants or undocumented workers, however you want to call it.  To me the term illegal does not bother me as it merely states the different between legal means to come here (as defined by the current law) and illegal means.  It does not bare any significance on how an individual should be treated.  Undocumented workers (let’s use this word so everyone is more comfortable) want their status to be legalized or documented in US period.  If you read through this thread, I don’t think anyone suggested the solution is deportation.   Most people do agree that they should be provided the opportunity to legalize their status, and should be treat fairly.

Another aspect deals with the on-going enforcement/prevention so that this won’t become a pressing issue again in 5 or 10 years.  This is where probably our differences in opinion lay.  As I stated earlier somewhere and don’t mind to say it again, when there are more people want to come here than what you can accommodate, shouldn’t some rules be applied and enforced so that it’s fair to everyone?  Right now we are talking about 12 million, what if it’s 100 million, 1 billion.  Can you honestly still say everyone is welcomed here for a chance at a better life?  I am told that I am a dreamer on many things, but I don’t dare to dream that big.  Like it or not, the world is divided by the visible and invisible borders to separate one country from another, hence lays the difference in national interests.  The world is not one big happy family where everyone shares the common interest, but it does not mean that we can not be civil to each other either.

As to the question whether US has one of the most open immigration policy, I can only speak to my own view based on many of my friends’ experience in UK, France, Germany, Japan, my own knowledge of China, and what my immigration lawyer told me.  I did not mean it to be the final say on this issue and will do more research if time permits.  Also when you talk about immigration, it’s different from come to visit, study or work.  “An immigrant is a person who intends to stay permanently, in contrast to a casual visitor or traveler.” (from wikipedia) It may be easier to visit some countries, but it’s hard to actually become a permanent resident or citizen of that country.  Many countries currently simply do not offer that as an option.  It could definitely change as it’s all driven by demand and supply.  If they are a lot of people who wants to immigrant to, let’s say China for example, I am sure the government will start to recognize the need and make that option more accessible.

Let’s give everyone the room to express their opinion and don’t dismiss their view too quickly.  Honestly I am little concern to continue posting on this thread as what I said may be misinterpreted since I don’t articulate my points well.  I always think what brought us here together beside Brokeback Mountain is not being judgmental on the things that different from you, or you don’t necessarily agree to.

[delalluvia]

Del,

I love you dearly, you know that much.  But that just smacks of idealism and not reality.

   Actually I was thinking that the other side of our discussion was being very idealistic.

Compared to these people, our lives are Disneyland.  Period.

Um, would that be Jack and Ennis people?  You want to start comparing, there are plenty of poor comparisons in this country as well.  Did you check out the news while watching those poor people in Louisiana?  Somehow I doubt they think their lives are Disneyland.

I don't understand why it's so hard to admit that while immigration advocates like me are not advocating open borders by any means, we are attempting to adjust what is largely, on both sides of the house, considered an inequity and unfair bitch of an unsatisfactory situation for 12 million people.

True, but I haven't heard any real economic answers.  If you read my earlier posts, you'll have noticed the Cesar Chavez migrant farm workers example another poster brought up.  Cesar Chavez back in the 70's organized migrant farm workers - mostly illegal - who were treated horrendously in their seasonal jobs.  Paid a pittance and treated almost like slaves.  He managed to get them organized and strking for better conditions/money, etc.

What happened to them?

They were 'Americanized' in their demands.  What did their employers do?  Promptly went out and hired NEW illegals who were not unionized.  Suddenly, there were a bunch of migrant farm workers who were unionized but now without jobs.

The problem doesn't lie with the workers, it lies with the employers who want to save money by hiring illegal and under the table workers.  It keeps their overhead low and subsequently, prices.  To destroy the illegal supply, you have to cut off the demand.

Grapes from Mexico, probably picked by dirt poor workers cost $1.89 a pound.  Organically grown grapes, grown in co-ops, tended by the individual farm owners in this country are $3.49 a pound.  Which ones are a strapped, harried mother of 3 going to buy? 

Illegals are essentially the WalMart of workers.  They come into an area and undercut the working wage for several types of jobs.  Would you hire a $900 a month per child daycare/nanny/au pair or a $350 a month illiegal alien caretaker?  Pay $350+ for a GreenThumb company to service your lawn or hire the local lawn care guys who don't speak much English at $25 a pop?

Pretty soon, the local daycare, GreenThumb service or what have you is losing money or out of business and no one wants to pay more for the services offered than they're paying illegals and the cry goes out that 'illegal workers take the jobs Americans don't want' when that isn't true.  Those who hire them were the ones who invented such slave wage jobs by preferring to pay illegal rates rather than legal ones.

Why can't everyone "have it?"

What makes you think we can?  Currently the U.S. is only 6.7% of the world's population.  Yet we use over 30% of the entire world's energy sources.  If we just used our 'fair share' of energy resources and let everyone else 'have it', Americans would probably only be able to use 1.5-3 hours of electricity per day.

I don't see everyone rushing to want to give up their 24/7 power so that others can have it.

But that would be fair.  That would be allowing 'everyone to have it'.  Currently the Western worlds are pouring money and technology into 3rd world countries.  Why?  Because these countries are moving from pre-industrial to industrial and since they don't have the money to buy oil, they want to use cheaper sources, burn wood, coal to fuel their new economies.

Obviously the rest of the world doesn't want the pollutants pouring in the air and seas.  They rightfully charged the West with 'YOU had your Industrial Revolution, why are you trying to keep us from having ours?'  So what the West is having to do is dump enough resources, money and technology so these countries leap-frog from pre-industrial to 21st century. 

The message last Monday was clear.  If you removed the "illegals" as you call them from society, particularly cities, you would see a complete debilitation in the efficiency of your own life -- your clothes would not get cleaned

Um, I do my own laundry.

your bus would not arrive

I walk or drive and most of the bus dirvers I see are NOT illegal aliens.

your dishes would not be washed

Are you rich?  Only rich people don't do their own dishes.

your hotel room not straightened

Doesn't bother me.  If doing my own cleaning would drop the hotel rates, I'd trade in a second.  Unfortunately, I can't afford to travel much as it is, much less rent a hotel room.

your food would go unprepared, your vegetables unharvested, your taxis would not be driven, your gardening not done, your home not cleaned, your cable TV not installed, your.... should I keep going?

You could, but NONE of those things applied to me or my family.  We would do quite well.  Again, the loss of their work only affects those who use it.  For the majority of the unskilled labor intensive jobs, families such as mine, do it ourselves. 

This is a very large social issue that cannot be addressed with ideals like what "should" be -- we need to address what simply IS.

I agree, but what we both see as simply IS is the opposite side of the same coin.  I see social services being overwhelmed, neighborhood tax values falling, reckless uncaring drivers on the road.  What can be done about that?

Undocumented workers can get TIN numbers, they can get driver's licenses in some places and they can even buy homes.  And they are doing all of these things, and planning for the future.

Yes, they get drivers licenses - and in my state, you are required to have insurance to take advantage of this privilege.  They buy one months worth of insurance, get their license, then let the insurance lapse.  Then such dirivers total my family's cars and RUN.     I think you'll agree that's unlawful.  Had me or my mother been killed, would their running be excused?  They obviously cared more for themselves than for the safety of other people.  This is the attitude of people who think flouting a country's laws is OK because of THEIR needs.

It's naive for anyone to deny these privileges they have rightfully earned just because some silly law on the books doesn't measure up to the situation in this country today.  The law needs to be changed, period.

And it's naive to think that undocumented workers don't cause as many problems as they solve. 

And when that law changes, and they are suddently not looked at as second class citizens anymore but rather, equal citizens, then what?  Will American society crumble?  No, it will get stronger and more diverse.

Or perhaps we'll have a whole new class of citizens who are unskilled and uneducated who are now themselves, priced out of the workplace by new illegals and thus become burdens to the society at large.

Heard the latest from a relative.  He was stupid enough to bring some mail order bride home from south of the border.  He got her a visa and paid for her to come up.  Several months of living together (chastely apparently), they made plans to get married.

We all bought outfits for this shindig.  Then right before the wedding, girl says she wants to borrow his car to pick up a friend at the airport.  Since she can hardly dirve, he says he'll go with her.  She doesn't want him to go.  He asks why her fiance shouldn't meet her friends.

Tearfully she admits the friend is her boyfriend, but she's very grateful to him for bringing her to this country.

He asks for his money back.  She doesn't have it, of course.

He has her visa revoked, reports her to Immigration, packs her up and buys her a ticket home.

Unfortunately, he couldn't afford a non-stop flight to her home country.  Do you know where I'm going with this?  She gets on the plane, but when it lands in another U.S. city to make the connecting flight, she gets off, gets the final part of the flight refunded to her and disappears.

A few months later, she calls from where she is living with her boyfriend to mock my in-law.  Laughing and making fun of him.

Oh, no, not the end of the story.

She shows up a year later on his doorstep, destitute begging for forgiveness.

Where is her boyfriend?  In jail, doing 7-10 on a drug charge.

She's 8.5 months pregnant.

We told him to call Immigration and ship her home quick before she had the baby here and then could stay since her child would be a citizen.

Doofus didn't act in time and she had the baby here.

Welcome to our new illiegal immigrant citizen and her baby.

The father a convicted criminal, the mother uneducated, no visa, no green card, doesn't speak the language, no money, no job skiills.

Can you say, welfare mother?  Because that is what she is, among such things as liar, thief and conwoman.

You can say I'm naive rtprod - and you  know I've got nothing but love fer ye  - but I think I'm the realistic one.

[JennyC]

Del, Del, Del, what can I say

We don't have the most number of posts in this thread, but I think we probably can easily get the longest post on average here. 

Maybe group hugs for everyone?

[delalluvia]

Hi Jenny!!

Heh, I think we're going for a world record!  Naw, I think the Jake's Eyelashes thread on the Dave Cullen Board is that.  1178 pages before they had to start a new thread!

I don't think anyone is upset.  We all feel very strongly about this issue, but I don't think anyone is really angry about any of the posts.  I could be wrong though.   

In fact, if we had kids solving the worlds problems, i think the world would be a better place!!  Talk about tough love -  they're not afraid to actually be honest!!

Hiya Sheyne,

You know, this really caught my eye.  I did a paper on this topic in college.  When I was in my Polysci class, we had several options for additional credit.  One was to attend a seminar and write a synopsis on it.  This seminar in particular - I can't recall the name of it - was about children and the nuclear/terrorist threats.  The seminar and film were about the psychological affects of terrorism on children, the scars constant media attention on nuclear destruction during the arms race of the 80's caused.  There was quite a bit on children giving their opinions and voicing their fears and how it affected their daily lives, and the film showed therapy that parents could give, how people said "if these scared children would just appear before the world leaders, things would change." etc.

Afterwards, we the audience sat around and discussed what we had seen and heard.  They were all in agreement, how children were so honest and thoughful and caring and if they could run things, we wouldn't have the troubles we had today, etc., etc.

I took a look around the room at the audience.

There was not one single man in attendance.

Apparently, only women were interested in what children had to say.

Who are the world's leaders?

99% men.

Children evoke emotional responses from people.  World leaders today are not known for reacting emotionally.

Chances are the world leaders would smile at a coalition of children, pat their heads, give such sound bites of their preciousness, innocence and then 'out of the mouths of babes' return to the negotiation table.   

[littledarlin]

del, i think you're taking the issue too personally.  you need to look at the bigger picture.  this sounds bad, i really don't want to seem negative, but because you or people you've known have had a few bad experiences with illegal immigrants does not make them all bad people.  as with any major group of people, there are always a few bad seeds. 

looking specifically at mexico, you said yourself you've seen first hand how serious the conditions are there.  the sad part is that things aren't all that great HERE, but there is some truth to what RT said: this place is like disneyland to some people.  do you really think that people are in mexico right now saying "gee i can't support my family, let's leave everything we've worked for, the lives we've built, our friends and family, and go to america!"  ok, maybe there are some people willing to do that, but for someone to leave, illegally, it takes a LOT.  this argument reminds me of the abortion debate.  pro-lifers act like women have abortions for fun.  having an abortion is one of the hardest choices a woman would ever have to make!  are there people that take advantage of it?  yes.  but a very tiny percentage do.  because of that tiny percentage, do we want to make abortions illegal for ALL women?  regardless of how desperately they need one?

the reason so many of these issues overlap is because people try to demonize the victims of these types of oppression, when all you do is put a human face to it, and everything's suddenly changed. 

as far as people not having children, i can't really comment further on that.  the issue of access to contraceptives has been brought up, and i agree i think people who have children without means to support them is STUPID, people do it regardless for a number of reasons.  but i haven't lived it.  so i don't think it's fair for me to judge.  i just appreciate what i have, and if i'm in a position to help someone who needs it then i'm going to help them without thinking twice. 

[JennyC]

Del, your story on the mail order bride is certainly interesting.  But there are bad apples everywhere; Timothy McVay is 100% US citizen and a home-grown terrorist.  We can not use this to hold against the majority hard working, law biding people.  As a foreigner here, I find it perfectly understandable that a country only wants contributing immigrants into its border, not trouble makers.  This goes back to the point of enforcement, without enforcement, you have no control over who is coming here.  Human trafficking, sex slavery, these are all tied to illegal immigrants issue. 

I do agree that a relatively larger portion of the illegal immigrants (when compared with general population) are uneducated, working under unfairly low wage, therefore tend to rely more on welfare.  Maybe the entire county has not feel the impact yet, but I certainly heard that cities that are closer to the border have seen the impact on their education and healthcare system.  NPR did a special on this topic maybe a month ago.

[JennyC]

Just want to add that this becomes my new favorite hideout place now. Some serious discussion and interesting perspectives we have here. 

You guys are all awesome!

[sparkle_motion]

I agree with the last couple of posts. You can't make broad generalizations about 12 million people because of a few experiences you've had or people you know have had.

[JennyC]

i just appreciate what i have, and if i'm in a position to help someone who needs it then i'm going to help them without thinking twice. 

Andrew, what do you mean here?

[delalluvia]

del, i think you're taking the issue too personally.  you need to look at the bigger picture.

I thought I was.   

this sounds bad, i really don't want to seem negative, but because you or people you've known have had a few bad experiences with illegal immigrants does not make them all bad people.  as with any major group of people, there are always a few bad seeds.

Of course, I take this particularly to heart.  I live this every single day.  WAS living this every single day as a child.  I saw and still see what happens.  It hasn't been a 'few' bad experiences, it's been many.  Some life threatening.

Yes, there are definitely some wonderful people out there.  I currently adore my mother's new next door neighbor.  He's a young guy, brought his family (his wife looks dangerously underage) to this little house.  I think he washes dishes somewhere.  But he works hard, keeps up his house and looks after my mother like she's his mother.  His wife however, we don't see much of, she stays home all the time with the kids and so far as we can tell, never goes out anywhere.     

Heh, and y'all are going to find this funny - one of my uncles by marriage used to be a coyote.  If you guys know what that is.

looking specifically at mexico, you said yourself you've seen first hand how serious the conditions are there.  the sad part is that things aren't all that great HERE, but there is some truth to what RT said: this place is like disneyland to some people.  do you really think that people are in mexico right now saying "gee i can't support my family, let's leave everything we've worked for, the lives we've built, our friends and family, and go to america!"  ok, maybe there are some people willing to do that, but for someone to leave, illegally, it takes a LOT.

Many people are willing to do this BECAUSE they don't have anything (Ennis:  Don't have nuthin', don't need nuthin').  It's easier for them to pick up and leave.  Harder on their families, but easier in other ways.

this argument reminds me of the abortion debate.  pro-lifers act like women have abortions for fun.  having an abortion is one of the hardest choices a woman would ever have to make!  are there people that take advantage of it?  yes.  but a very tiny percentage do.  because of that tiny percentage, do we want to make abortions illegal for ALL women?  regardless of how desperately they need one?

Good analogy.  However, the argument could also state:

The more we have of sex education and contraceptives, the less we would have a need for abortion, so after a while, abortion CAN be strictly regulated because so few women would need it.

The more we cut back on Immigration and make things difficult for illegal aliens, the less crime would be committed by them.  Yes, only the bad apples commit crimes, but since they're not supposed to be here in the first place, their crimes could have easily been prevented by not allowing any of them in the country at all.

Remember the boat people of Cuba?  We welcomed them to the U.S. fleeing Castro's regimie.  How were we to know that Castro had emptied his prisons and sent convicted felons/thieves and murderers to our country?

We found out when our citizens started suffering from their crimes.  We started being a bit more stringent after that.  But that is cold comfort to the families of the people who were murdered by them.

the reason so many of these issues overlap is because people try to demonize the victims of these types of oppression, when all you do is put a human face to it, and everything's suddenly changed.

Sometimes.   Sometimes the human face gets put on it, but the attitude does not change. 

as far as people not having children, i can't really comment further on that.  the issue of access to contraceptives has been brought up, and i agree i think people who have children without means to support them is STUPID, people do it regardless for a number of reasons.

Makes life hard.  Perhaps if life becomes very hard for them and their children, they'll think twice about having more.  If other people keep funding programs to keep their children fed, they might not.

I have a cousin who's a crack addict.  She happens to be a 40 year old crack addict because her mother kept sending her money and taking her to the hospital and bailing her out of jail.  Had her mother instituted a program of tough love 20 years ago, perhaps now she would be a RECOVERING crack addict.

Sometimes people have to hit bottom to learn.

In Mexico, back in the day, there was no welfare/social programs.  The only social programs to help the destitute were church charities.  If you got unemployed, you pretty much starved.  It made for great incentive to keep working no matter what, take any job you could.

I remember as a child shopping in downtown - Victoria was it? - with my relatives.  There was man fallen over the sidewalk.  People had to step over him.

Was he dead?  Drunk?  Sick?  I didn't know.  But what I did realize, was that no one was going to come for him.  He would have to get up/recover by himself.

That made quite an impression on me as a child.

[JennyC]

Ok, before I have to log off, let me just put another one for Andrew.  The water is definitely muddier now when we have several issues being discussed here. 

it just kills me that bush can let the UAE control our ports , but the real problem is people coming over here from mexico who want a better life for their families?

Dear Andrew, I did not mean to pick on what you said here.  You said it in an earlier post.  I do want to add my two cents on the bolded part. 

I do wonder why can’t the UAE company operates US port when the same port used to be operated by a UK company?  Currently there are other US ports operated by foreign owned companies (I heard UK, Singapore, China are among those).  It’s perfectly fine that after 9/11 US may want to adjust policy on who can operate its ports to protect national interest.  But to pick on this particular deal because it’s an UAE company for whatever underlying assumption, while not make a fuss on other ports that currently operated by other foreign owned company, that is double standard to me.   Last time I checked, UAE is still not among the “Axle of evil” .  Can’t tell you how many times I am frustrated with the double standard US applied to both domestic (gay rights included) and international affairs.  And none of the political parties is immune from applying double standard.

Democrat used this to attack what traditionally considered republican’s stronghold on national security (which I still don’t get), I am sorry to say that it’s a cheap shot to me. It’s ok to question why a deal that impact national security because it’s regarding US port was not reviewed or approved by certain committee before it went into full action, but it’s not right to pick on this because it’s an UAE company.

Again Andrew, I did not mean to take your word out of context.  It’s an interesting topic and I want to know what other Tremblayans’ thoughts are. 

[delalluvia]

Del, your story on the mail order bride is certainly interesting.

Any wonder that I don't watch Reality TV? Why?  When I have all the drama I need at home?

I haven't even told you about my aunt.  She had an illiegal immigrant boyfriend.  They were living together, going to get married.  He needed a truck to help him with his part-time construction job.  Since she had credit and he didn't she bought it for him.  Hey, they were going to get married, right?

Well, before they got married, they took the truck down to Mexico to visit his family.  Once they got to his family's home, he promptly took her visa/pass and locked her in a back bedroom.

You see, he ALREADY had a wife and family.

My aunt was imprisoned in his family home for several days before she could convince the housekeeper to let her go.  She walked into town and got hold of the U.S. embassy and got back to the U.S.  Without her new truck.  Luckily for my aunt, she's fluent in English and Spanish.  This is the same aunt with the crackhead daughter.

But there are bad apples everywhere; Timothy McVay is 100% US citizen and a home-grown terrorist.  We can not use this to hold against the majority hard working, law biding people.

Well, we wouldn't because he wasn't a minority.  Had he been, things might have been different.  I remember the days after the blast, President Cllinton very wisely entreating Americans not to jump to any conclusions about who had done it.

I do agree that a relatively larger portion of the illegal immigrants (when compared with general population) are uneducated, working under unfairly low wage, therefore tend to rely more on welfare.  Maybe the entire county has not feel the impact yet, but I certainly heard that cities that are closer to the border have seen the impact on their education and healthcare system.

Yep.  This is what I've seen over the years.

[littledarlin]

Ok, before I have to log off, let me just put another one for Andrew.  The water is definitely muddier now when we have several issues being discussed here. 

Dear Andrew, I did not mean to pick on what you said here.  You said it in an earlier post.  I do want to add my two cents on the bolded part. 

I do wonder why can’t the UAE company operates US port when the same port used to be operated by a UK company?  Currently there are other US ports operated by foreign owned companies (I heard UK, Singapore, China are among those).  It’s perfectly fine that after 9/11 US may want to adjust policy on who can operate its ports to protect national interest.  But to pick on this particular deal because it’s an UAE company for whatever underlying assumption, while not make a fuss on other ports that currently operated by other foreign owned company, that is double standard to me.   Last time I checked, UAE is still not among the “Axle of evil” .  Can’t tell you how many times I am frustrated with the double standard US applied to both domestic (gay rights included) and international affairs.  And none of the political parties is immune from applying double standard.

Democrat used this to attack what traditionally considered republican’s stronghold on national security (which I still don’t get), I am sorry to say that it’s a cheap shot to me. It’s ok to question why a deal that impact national security because it’s regarding US port was not reviewed or approved by certain committee before it went into full action, but it’s not right to pick on this because it’s an UAE company.

Again Andrew, I did not mean to take your word out of context.  It’s an interesting topic and I want to know what other Tremblayans’ thoughts are. 

by all means pick on my posts!  lol i don't mind.  i like discussion.

and you are right!  it is a double standard to let the UK do it, but not the UAE.  but there are two factors here.

first most people weren't aware that the UK was monitoring our ports BEFORE this deal happened.  i mean, i'm sure the outrage stemmed from people who look at the entire middle east as one country and associate every person in the middle east with osama bin laden and sadaam hussein.  but now that it's made national headlines and people know that our ports are guarded by foreign companies, they want domestic guards.

secondly, the uae is a major human rights violator with laws that are sexist, racist and all around discriminatory.  they also have serious issues with human trafficking, especially children as sex slaves.  it's changing though, things have got better, but the timing just doesn't seem right. 

in my opinion, it doesn't matter who is guarding the ports as long as they're qualified.  there's just as much of a chance of an american being a spy as there is someone from the uk or the uae.  but coming from the bush administration, it reeks of dirty money.

so yes, one of the many problems with the administration is them constantly contradicting themselves with their actions.  they want to liberate the people of iraq and afghanistan, but take away our rights here.  they want to find osama bin laden, so they invade iraq.  they want to improve foreign affairs, so they threaten every major world power on the basis that they need to treat their citizens better?  (see: china; iran)

it's CRAZY crazy crazy.

[littledarlin]

The more we have of sex education and contraceptives, the less we would have a need for abortion, so after a while, abortion CAN be strictly regulated because so few women would need it.

The more we cut back on Immigration and make things difficult for illegal aliens, the less crime would be committed by them.  Yes, only the bad apples commit crimes, but since they're not supposed to be here in the first place, their crimes could have easily been prevented by not allowing any of them in the country at all.

yes.  but, until conditions in other countries can improve, how can we turn people away?  it's already extremely difficult to come here legally, even illegally.  it makes sense, it sounds good, but i just can't help but think of the people who are desperate for a way out.  the people who risk their lives, their childrens' lives, just for a chance to survive here.  i mean if 100 people can escape poverty and starvation and death and oppressive governments, i think it's worth it if 1 of those 100 people end up committing some other crime (as long as it's not violent).  i just think of all the women who were tortured and killed in juarez, no investigations, nothing for so long.  people that would risk going through that to get here are NOT trying to take the easy way out.  they're at their last resort. 

[delalluvia]

Hiya little

yes.  but, until conditions in other countries can improve, how can we turn people away?

How are those countries going to improve if their citizens don't have to stay and face up to their unsatisfactory governments?

it's already extremely difficult to come here legally, even illegally.  it makes sense, it sounds good, but i just can't help but think of the people who are desperate for a way out.  the people who risk their lives, their childrens' lives, just for a chance to survive here.  i mean if 100 people can escape poverty and starvation and death and oppressive governments, i think it's worth it if 1 of those 100 people end up committing some other crime (as long as it's not violent).

How could you decide that though?  How can you tell the family of that one person who was brutally murdered - "We're really sorry about that, but hey 100 other people did well, so it's OK if your loved one was tortured to death leaving their children father/motherless"?

You'd be a braver person than me.

It's kinda like that statement made by one of our Founding Fathers "I'd rather see 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man jailed' or something like that.  But remember that was the 1700's.  Back before a single man flying an airplane could kill 5000 people.  Sometimes that one person can do a lot of damage.  That one person is a terrorist, that one person is a serial killer, that one person is a psycho who shoots up a school.

They come here and they may do themselves proud or they might ram a car full of children then run off rather than face up to their crime and deported.

i just think of all the women who were tortured and killed in juarez, no investigations, nothing for so long.  people that would risk going through that to get here are NOT trying to take the easy way out.  they're at their last resort.

How about the women tortured and killed in Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan?  The people imprisoned in China?  The children who disappeared in Chile/Columbia?  The 10s of thousands dying every day in Africa?   

Are we going to be an open door for EVERY persecuted person?  There would be no room left to stand.

[rtprod]

You know Del, there's now way to even read these posts without getting so angry I can't deal with it.

I can't comment on this issue anymore -- seems like you're unwilling to give an inch here. 

Geeze, is there any validity to the other side of the "argument" at all? 

Over and out. 

rt

[littledarlin]

Hiya little

How are those countries going to improve if their citizens don't have to stay and face up to their unsatisfactory governments?

no idea.  we'll see when it happens.  some countries use the voting process, some countries revolt.

How could you decide that though?  How can you tell the family of that one person who was brutally murdered - "We're really sorry about that, but hey 100 other people did well, so it's OK if your loved one was tortured to death leaving their children father/motherless"?

but it goes both ways.  how could you turn away someone who is starving to death or whose kids are starving to death or whatever the case may be?  this goes back to does the end justify the means.  who knows.

How about the women tortured and killed in Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan?  The people imprisoned in China?  The children who disappeared in Chile/Columbia?  The 10s of thousands dying every day in Africa?   

Are we going to be an open door for EVERY persecuted person?  There would be no room left to stand.

YES!  if someone is seeking refuge here, they should be more than welcome to.  the only reason more people DON'T is because it is so hard to get here from asia, africa, south america, etc.  we have no right to say one persons life is more valuable than the other and we shouldn't have to make a choice.  we should help everyone we can, everyone who WANTS help. 

if the day comes when the religious right takes over, and start burning gays at the stake, i would absolutely flee to anywhere i could.  sometimes it's just not as simple as standing up to your government.  i do my best to stay here and change things for the better in the ways i can, but things keep getting worse.  there's going to come a point where i say fuck this, i'm sick of being treated like a second class citizen, and move to a country that accepts gays as equals.  will i go through the legal process?  yes, but i have the resources to do so.  for now.  but who knows what's going to happen.

[rtprod]

How are those countries going to improve if their citizens don't have to stay and face up to their unsatisfactory governments?

If this isn't a fantasy of misplaced idealism then I don't know what is.  What should they do, go to City Hall?  lol

Good lord, they can't even stand up to make 30 bucks a week -- the governments are loaded with corruption and they are poverty stricken. 

Is that comment for real?

rt

[rtprod]

Del, no, I'm not rich.  But I do see sweeping social issues as greater than black and white. 

My own dishes?  I'm talking about in restaurants.

My own laundry?  I'm talking about dry cleaners.

I don't know where you come from, but the economy in this major city would collapse tomorrow, and everyone here knows it, if we removed the contributions of undocumented workers. 

This is true -- by the way, ever see the great movie Bread and Roses by Ken Loach, starring Adrien Brody?  Or have you seen Maria Full of Grace?  Can you take a compassionate perspective on those characters at all?

rt

[littledarlin]

Del, no, I'm not rich.  But I do see sweeping social issues as greater than black and white. 

I don't know where you come from, but the economy in this major city would collapse tomorrow, and everyone here knows it, if we removed the contributions of undocumented workers. 

rt

same here, rt.  the city of chicago, and most of the suburbs, have a huge base of immigrants.  that's why it's baffling to me to see people react this way.  everything is relative.  the point i was trying to make was that you can not judge an entire group of people by the actions of a small portion of that group.  i don't see immigrants without papers as criminals, i see the actions taken against them as criminal, as far as work conditions, healthcare, etc.  the problem lies within the process, not the immigrants themselves.

[rtprod]

same here, rt.  the city of chicago, and most of the suburbs, have a huge base of immigrants.  that's why it's baffling to me to see people react this way.  everything is relative.  the point i was trying to make was that you can not judge an entire group of people by the actions of a small portion of that group.  i don't see immigrants without papers as criminals, i see the actions taken against them as criminal, as far as work conditions, healthcare, etc.  the problem lies within the process, not the immigrants themselves.

I hear you.  Everyone I know here in this city, Repub or Dem, feels that this situation is in some way unfair and needs to be adjusted. 

rt

[delalluvia]

Hi little

YES!  if someone is seeking refuge here, they should be more than welcome to.  the only reason more people DON'T is because it is so hard to get here from asia, africa, south america, etc.  we have no right to say one persons life is more valuable than the other and we shouldn't have to make a choice.  we should help everyone we can, everyone who WANTS help.

So the U.S. is a charitable organization now?

if the day comes when the religious right takes over, and start burning gays at the stake, i would absolutely flee to anywhere i could.  sometimes it's just not as simple as standing up to your government.  i do my best to stay here and change things for the better in the ways i can, but things keep getting worse.  there's going to come a point where i say fuck this, i'm sick of being treated like a second class citizen, and move to a country that accepts gays as equals.  will i go through the legal process?  yes, but i have the resources to do so.  for now.  but who knows what's going to happen.

You know, this can turn on its head.  In this country gay rights are being pushed forward by the left, generally.  In the southwest of America, the HIspanic population is growing by leaps and bounds.  I think it was said recently that the Hispanic population is now the majority in some areas.  I'm sure that is also due some to immigration.

Many of them are Catholic and are quite used to religion mixing with politics.  And if naturalized will become voters.  Not sure which way they would vote on such legislative moral and gender issues, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

How are those countries going to improve if their citizens don't have to stay and face up to their unsatisfactory governments?

If this isn't idealism then I don't know what is.

Good lord, they can't even stand up to make 30 bucks a week -- the governments are loaded with corruption and they are poverty stricken.

Is that comment for real?

Er, yeah.  After all Mexico has had quite a few revolutions in the last two centuries.  Was it just the wealthy fighting?  I don't think so.

We had a revolution in this country and in France as well.  They had an almost bloodless apartheid system change in South Africa.

Were only the well-heeled and employed doing the revolting?

Del, no, I'm not rich.  But I do see sweeping social issues as greater than black and white.

My own dishes?  I'm talking about in restaurants.

My own laundry?  I'm talking about dry cleaners.

I don't know where you come from, but the economy in this major city would collapse tomorrow, and everyone here knows it, if we removed the contributions of undocumented workers.

Did it collapse when the immigrants walked out on Monday?  Or did life go on?  I think life went on.  Yes, they make a contribution, no one is denying that.  It's just a matter of how much of an impact it makes.  I've yet to read any articles on the economic impact of Monday.

Can you take a compassionate perspective on those characters at all?

Never saw either of them, sorry.  Yes, I have compassion.  I have compassion for people who have terrible lives, I think there is a word in German for 'world sorrow'.  I have that quite often.

But even Jesus Christ said 'There will be poor always.'  You can't save everyone and indeed, there is nothing that says it is even possible.

[littledarlin]

I think it was said recently that the Hispanic population is now the majority in some areas.  I'm sure that is also due some to immigration.

And what's wrong with that?!  Is the US SUPPOSED to be a majority of white people of european descent?  What's the big deal?  Things change, we adapt, we move on.  I really don't want to bring up the obvious again, but legal or not, we're all essentially immigrants here.  well ok, so we were born here.  well what about illegal immigrants who have children here?  what happens when we deport the parents?  wait, let me guess, they should've thought about that before they had kids?

Many of them are Catholic and are quite used to religion mixing with politics.  And if naturalized will become voters.  Not sure which way they would vote on such legislative moral and gender issues, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

they're people!  they aren't tax dollars, they aren't votes, they're people.  why would i care how they vote?! 

[Daniel]

It sounds like this topic is getting pretty heated....

Let's try and remember that we're all here to love and support one another.

[delalluvia]

And what's wrong with that?!  Is the US SUPPOSED to be a majority of white people of european descent?  What's the big deal?  Things change, we adapt, we move on.

Doesn't bother me.  What bothers me is a bunch of people moving in that have right-wing religious beliefs that translate into voting power.

That should bother you, too.  It bothers me now with Dubya and company and their religious views in power.

I really don't want to bring up the obvious again, but legal or not, we're all essentially immigrants here.  well ok, so we were born here.  well what about illegal immigrants who have children here?  what happens when we deport the parents?  wait, let me guess, they should've thought about that before they had kids?

Why can't they take their kids with them?  The child is a U.S. citizen, but so what?  Can't U.S. kids grow up in foreign countries?  Happens all the time with ex-pats.  It's not a big tragedy.

[Sheyne]

YES!  if someone is seeking refuge here, they should be more than welcome to.  the only reason more people DON'T is because it is so hard to get here from asia, africa, south america, etc.  we have no right to say one persons life is more valuable than the other and we shouldn't have to make a choice.  we should help everyone we can, everyone who WANTS help. 

if the day comes when the religious right takes over, and start burning gays at the stake, i would absolutely flee to anywhere i could.  sometimes it's just not as simple as standing up to your government.  i do my best to stay here and change things for the better in the ways i can, but things keep getting worse.  there's going to come a point where i say fuck this, i'm sick of being treated like a second class citizen, and move to a country that accepts gays as equals.  will i go through the legal process?  yes, but i have the resources to do so.  for now.  but who knows what's going to happen.

Frankly, we ALL would, littledarlin.. People living in a reasonably economically stable society forget how tough things are in some parts of the world. It just kills me that people get to sitting in their little ivory towers and say "oh poor Africa, poor south america etc" and then get uneasy that these people for wanting to seek a better life in our countries.  Or worse, that they are starting to make sweeping generalisations about what they will do once they're here.  As though the actions of one person of a particular cultural group earns us the right to slap the label on all of them?

Come on, fair go.  To all those who think immigration isn't an idea they'd entertain, imagine the lengths you'd go to in order to protect your family and loved ones should terrorist attacks like 9/11 be happening once a month in your country?  If i knew there was a safer place where i could start all over again, I'd be there in a flash..

[delalluvia]

Come on, fair go.  To all those who think immigration isn't an idea they'd entertain, imagine the lengths you'd go to in order to protect your family and loved ones should terrorist attacks like 9/11 be happening once a month in your country?  If i knew there was a safer place where i could start all over again, I'd be there in a flash..

Good question Sheyne, but what comes to mind is Israel.  Despite quite a few incidents monthly, they seemed determined to stay put and make it work.

[littledarlin]

Doesn't bother me.  What bothers me is a bunch of people moving in that have right-wing religious beliefs that translateinto voting power.

That should bother you, too.  It bothers me now with Dubya and company and their religious views in power.

religious fundamentalists bother me, yes.  but we also have freedom of religion here (well, kind of).  just because i disagree with someones point of view does not mean i feel they should have any less of a right to express it than i do.  and look at US!  look at america!  we have sat by for 6 years pretending to make progress, when really we've just been sitting back while a fundamentalist administration lied, cheated, and stole the country away from us.  they stole 2 elections!  clinton got a blow job and he's gone!  but bush has KILLED in our name and there he sits. 

it's so much easier for us because we can sit and discuss this all day and night from the safety of our homes, and i will not pretend for a second to know what it's really like for anyone else who is not me, but no one should be denied a chance to live their lives comfortably and happily. 

Frankly, we ALL would, littledarlin.. People living in a reasonably economically stable society forget how tough things are in some parts of the world. It just kills me that people get to sitting in their little ivory towers and say "oh poor Africa, poor south america etc" and then get uneasy that these people for wanting to seek a better life in our countries.  Or worse, that they are starting to make sweeping generalisations about what they will do once they're here.  As though the actions of one person of a particular cultural group earns us the right to slap the label on all of them?

Come on, fair go.  To all those who think immigration isn't an idea they'd entertain, imagine the lengths you'd go to in order to protect your family and loved ones should terrorist attacks like 9/11 be happening once a month in your country?  If i knew there was a safer place where i could start all over again, I'd be there in a flash..

sheyne, i think you have summed up all 4 pages of this thread in that comment.

It sounds like this topic is getting pretty heated....

Let's try and remember that we're all here to love and support one another.

yes, daniel.  you're right.  i can still feel the love.

it's past my bed time.  gotta go.  night!

[delalluvia]

but no one should be denied a chance to live their lives comfortably and happily.

This about sums it up Little.

This is a wonderful sentiment, but how realistic?  Even our Founding Fathers knew this.  We had the right to the PURSUIT of happiness.  There were no guarantees we were going to get it.  We might fall short, might fall into poverty and despair.  Nowhere in our government documents is there any guarantee, certainly not for the govt to pick up the tab to ensure that it happens.

Not even for its own citizens.

Why should it be any different for anyone else around the world? 

[rtprod]

Let's try and remember that we're all here to love and support one another.

Well, many of these issues are personal for many people.  And we take them on that level. 

rt

[JennyC]

secondly, the uae is a major human rights violator with laws that are sexist, racist and all around discriminatory.  they also have serious issues with human trafficking, especially children as sex slaves.  it's changing though, things have got better, but the timing just doesn't seem right. 

Sorry Andrew, we just have to disagree on this.   I don’t think because UAE has problems with human rights, it then justifies its company to be unfairly treated when it comes to doing business with US.  It’s not like US does not have any human rights issues (gay rights being one of them).  One issue I have (and probably many others have too) is US tends to impose its own value system, standard and ways of doing things onto other counties.  I am not saying that everything US imposes is not correct, but a lot of times, it does so without acknowledge or give consideration to other countries history, culture, stage of the economic progress, etc.  It makes the US looks arrogant, particularly so if US can not hold itself to that standard.

This also reminded me what happened after Palestinian election when Hamas won the election.   Like it or not, Palestinian people chose Hamas to lead their country.  I totally disagree on Bush administration’s effort to alienate Palestine from other counties aide.  It’s the best opportunities they had to establish some working relationship with Hamas, to have some impact on shaping the Middle East peace talk.  They chose to stand on their ideology, which is unfortunate.  I liked what ex-president Jimmy Carter said in Larry King Live (I think it was Larry King Live) “(US should) give Hamas a chance”. 

[JennyC]

I think we all got tied up in our own emotions and some very specific points/comments in the discussion.  I got lost in all the argument since I don’t quite sure I understand what everyone’s positions are.  It’s easier to say that I am an immigrant rights advocate, but it’s a different story to have to offer solutions to specific challenges. 

Let’s say that now you get to write the proposal on immigration reform, what are your suggestions?  I have some high level questions to frame our discussion. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to.  I would appreciate if you do . This will help us understand the context of your argument.  If I missed anything, by all means add them.

1. What should be done to the existing illegal immigrants/undocumented workers here?
2. How should the cost for processing increasing immigrants and subsequent cost on education, healthcare system be subsidized, from the current budget or where?
3. Can US afford to have an open door policy to welcome everyone who wants to come here to come here and grant them residency and/or citizenship? 
4. If "Yes" to question no. 3, how can US support the volume of the immigration (e.g. can US economy and available resources digest the growing population, keep in mind that this growing population tends to have lower level of education, therefore there are limitation on what kind of jobs they may qualify)
5. If “No” to question no. 3, then what kind of immigration policy should be implemented?
6. What kind of enforcement on immigration should be implemented if any (e.g. border control, employer, etc.)?

[opinionista]

Or perhaps we'll have a whole new class of citizens who are unskilled and uneducated who are now themselves, priced out of the workplace by new illegals and thus become burdens to the society at large.

Heard the latest from a relative.  He was stupid enough to bring some mail order bride home from south of the border.  He got her a visa and paid for her to come up.  Several months of living together (chastely apparently), they made plans to get married.

We all bought outfits for this shindig.  Then right before the wedding, girl says she wants to borrow his car to pick up a friend at the airport.  Since she can hardly dirve, he says he'll go with her.  She doesn't want him to go.  He asks why her fiance shouldn't meet her friends.

Tearfully she admits the friend is her boyfriend, but she's very grateful to him for bringing her to this country.

He asks for his money back.  She doesn't have it, of course.

He has her visa revoked, reports her to Immigration, packs her up and buys her a ticket home.

Unfortunately, he couldn't afford a non-stop flight to her home country.  Do you know where I'm going with this?  She gets on the plane, but when it lands in another U.S. city to make the connecting flight, she gets off, gets the final part of the flight refunded to her and disappears.

A few months later, she calls from where she is living with her boyfriend to mock my in-law.  Laughing and making fun of him.

Oh, no, not the end of the story.

She shows up a year later on his doorstep, destitute begging for forgiveness.

Where is her boyfriend?  In jail, doing 7-10 on a drug charge.

She's 8.5 months pregnant.

We told him to call Immigration and ship her home quick before she had the baby here and then could stay since her child would be a citizen.

Doofus didn't act in time and she had the baby here.

Welcome to our new illiegal immigrant citizen and her baby.

The father a convicted criminal, the mother uneducated, no visa, no green card, doesn't speak the language, no money, no job skiills.

Can you say, welfare mother?  Because that is what she is, among such things as liar, thief and conwoman.

You can say I'm naive rtprod - and you  know I've got nothing but love fer ye   - but I think I'm the realistic one

I actually feel sorry for her. Think about it, if she agreed to marry a man she met via postal service, she must have been in a desperate situation. And her boyfriend was probably a poor boy who had no choice but to become a drug mule. People aren't always downright evil.

Anyway, I'm hispanic myself and I have had my share of bad experiences with immigrants. Some think because you're hispanic too, you're going to lend them a hand and do illegal stuff for them. My mother once hired a woman from the Dominican Republic to help my grandfather who was very ill and needed help around the house. My grandma had already died. Well, that woman wanted me to marry some cousin of her who was at the Dominican Republic. After I refused, she began this harrassing campaing in order to convince me. She made my life impossible for about two months, and even tried to make things go wrong between my then boyfriend and me. My mother had to fire her because of this.

After getting rid of her my mother hired another woman, also from the Dominican Republic, who stole some of my grandma jewelry and stuff from the kitchen. We reported her to the police, but she found out somehow, and dissappeared without a trace. The next person my mom hired, who was also dominican (they're the only ones who do this kind of work in Puerto Rico), was a very good girl, wonderful, honest, respectful and we kept her until my grandfather died, and then recommended her to someone who also needed help with a sick parent. My mother hires her sometimes when she needs an extra hand around the house. We aren't rich, but my mother has a demanding job and sometimes needs help. (My sister and I are in Europe). None of those women are illegal, they have permit to be in the country but they got into Puerto Rico illegaly.

So my point is, there are good and bad people among illegal immigrants, as there are among american people. A lot of them come from poor dysfunctional families, and don't know any better. But the great majority are honest people who come to this country to work. They're not criminals and do not deserve to be in jail. There are other ways to deal with this situation without violating human rights. Besides, putting all these people behind the bars is not cost effective. The money to keep them in prisons is going to come from tax payers, and that's not fair. That money shoud go to public health services, for instance, so people don't have to spend hard earned money buying insurances that in the end will not cover all of their medical needs.

[sparkle_motion]

The view that mexicans and south americans should stay in their country and fight it out for gov't change at the risk of their lives and the lives of their families is almost comical! If any of us comfortable americans were faced with the same prospect, we'd run! Why should we expect something of someone else that we wouldn't even do ourselves?

And the theory of "they're taking our jobs!" reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend. She said the same exact thing. I laughed heartily and said YOU HAVE A JOB, ARE YOU RETARDED?

[rtprod]

The view that mexicans and south americans should stay in their country and fight it out for gov't change at the risk of their lives and the lives of their families is almost comical! If any of us comfortable americans were faced with the same prospect, we'd run! Why should we expect something of someone else that we wouldn't even do ourselves?

And the theory of "they're taking our jobs!" reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend. She said the same exact thing. I laughed heartily and said YOU HAVE A JOB, ARE YOU RETARDED?

Well, at least we got a laugh out of that last line.  I too think this concept of staying to fight for a revolution when your economy stinks and your government is rife with corruption and you don't have food on the table is laughable. 

But then I was "lucky" enough to be born a white male in America (gay, yeah, but I can "pass" if need be), so what would I know about it? 

rt

[opinionista]

The view that mexicans and south americans should stay in their country and fight it out for gov't change at the risk of their lives and the lives of their families is almost comical! If any of us comfortable americans were faced with the same prospect, we'd run! Why should we expect something of someone else that we wouldn't even do ourselves?

And the theory of "they're taking our jobs!" reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend. She said the same exact thing. I laughed heartily and said YOU HAVE A JOB, ARE YOU RETARDED?

Well,  Bolivia voted for a president that's actually trying to make things work and take them out of poverty. Is a matter of who you vote for. I know that's not option for everybody but people do fight to make things better. Americans are among them. Why do you think there's no draft anymore for example. How about blacks civil rights? Women's right? They didn't fall from heaven, people fought for them and hard. Some even lost their lives in the process. Things could be better than they're now, but they're have certainly improved in the past 50 years.

[littledarlin]

Sorry Andrew, we just have to disagree on this.

hi jenny!  i wasn't saying i agree!  i was just pointing out why it was an issue.  the reason i brought up initially is to show the hypocrisy of the administration.  which we have several examples floating around now lol

and sparkle

And the theory of "they're taking our jobs!" reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend. She said the same exact thing. I laughed heartily and said YOU HAVE A JOB, ARE YOU RETARDED?

you should tell your friend no one's taking our jobs!  any job worth having you have to have computer skills, a college degree, and experience.    now all these people that complain about jobs being taken, i'd like to see them do one of those jobs that are "being taken" for a day. 

and hell, these days, there aren't jobs left to be taken!  i wish i had a figure of how many jobs we lost since 2000.  i know the gmc and ford have laid off millions and closed several plants alone. 

now OUTSOURCING jobs to countries with qualified people to avoid paying taxes and fair wages, now THAT'S something to be upset about. 

[starboardlight]

now OUTSOURCING jobs to countries with qualified people to avoid paying taxes and fair wages, now THAT'S something to be upset about. 

ironically, outsourcing may be just the thing that solves immigration problems. at the heart of immigration issue, people want to come to the US for jobs, but if the jobs went to these people, they won't feel the need to come here any longer. Looking at India and China for instance. There has been a decline in immigration from these two countries in the last decade. Before immigrants who came here on student visa would try to shift to B1-H status. With the quota on how many can get work visa, the major of these student simply abandon their visa in order to stay in the US. That is happening much less these days, because the jobs are available back in India and China. I'm not saying that exporting high-tech jobs to Mexico would stop the tides of immigration, but it's a model worth studying in terms of dealing the issue.

[ednbarby]

All right, I'll jump in the pool hip deep.  GAH!  That's COLD!  OK.  I'll dangle my toes.

Here in South Florida, as you can imagine, we certainly have our share of immigrants - of the illegal and legal varieties.  Most, if not all, of them have come here to escape economic hardships most of us here can only imagine.  Then there is the Cuban population.  The poster children of the Right for being their shining example of how we so readily aid the oppressed.  I guess it's OK if we disagree with their country's mode of government (dictatorship/fascism = OK, communism = bad) and they're pretty much completely vulnerable to us.

Diving in, now...

We employ a Columbian woman.  She cleans our house from top to bottom every other Monday.  Our next-door neighbor recommended her to us about six months ago.  Says she's been cleaning her house for years.  Says she does an excellent job, is trustworthy, and a pleasure to deal with.  She charges the going rate - no more, no less.  So we hired her.  And she has proven to be all the things our neighbor told us she was.  We never asked if she was legal.  But had we found out she wasn't, I don't think it would have been a deterrent.  I'd have figured they've gotta work, too.  And it might as well be for someone like us who would treat her with kindness and respect.

She called us Monday morning to say she couldn't clean the house that day because she was staying home/attending the rally in her area in support of the boycott.  My husband said power to her, we support that 100% and think it's a very important statement they're making.  She rescheduled with us for next week.

If it turns out she is illegal, I guess neither of us can ever run for a major public office.  Fine by me.  Because it's not the politicians who make things better (or worse).  It's the rest of us.

[rtprod]

If it turns out she is illegal, I guess neither of us can ever run for a major public office.  Fine by me.  Because it's not the politicians who make things better (or worse).  It's the rest of us.

You just hit the nail on the head.  This is exactly why I participated in orchestrating a green card marriage -- because politicians failed to make something right become possible. 

It's funny how so many prefer to talk about this "issue" and not the human beings behind it.  I doubt those here who so radically oppose legalizing undocumented workers have ever had a personal connection to one. 

rt

[littledarlin]

You just hit the nail on the head.  This is exactly why I participated in orchestrating a green card marriage -- because politicians failed to make something right become possible. 

It's funny how so many prefer to talk about this "issue" and not the human beings behind it.  I doubt those here who so radically oppose legalizing undocumented workers have ever had a personal connection to one. 

rt

exactly!!!  this is what's wrong with the world, people aren't able to empathize with someone unless they are right in front of their face, and even then it doesn't always work.  there are people who believe we should be in iraq, and the fact that we are there on false pretenses doesn't phase them, they honestly want to just nuke them.  no consideration of the millions and millions of innocent people there, all because of a vendetta the bush family has against sadaam hussein.  all for oil.  the roots of these feelings are racist, and extremely childish. 

but this formula is applied to nearly every minority, including gays.  someone can be the biggest homophobe in the world, but one day they found out their child or friend or someone close to them is gay and it completely shakes their belief system and they see things in a new light.

ironically, outsourcing may be just the thing that solves immigration problems. at the heart of immigration issue, people want to come to the US for jobs, but if the jobs went to these people, they won't feel the need to come here any longer. Looking at India and China for instance. There has been a decline in immigration from these two countries in the last decade. Before immigrants who came here on student visa would try to shift to B1-H status. With the quota on how many can get work visa, the major of these student simply abandon their visa in order to stay in the US. That is happening much less these days, because the jobs are available back in India and China. I'm not saying that exporting high-tech jobs to Mexico would stop the tides of immigration, but it's a model worth studying in terms of dealing the issue.

that's a really good point, nipith, and i never really considered that.  although now it seems kind of obvious.  but i don't think it would ever fly.  people who oppose immigration all together just want nothing to do with these people.  going back again to the issue of racism and nationalism.  but it's definitely something to think about.

[ednbarby]

Right on, Andrew and RT.

It's that very notion you speak of that made me change my party affilliation from Republican to Democrat in 1992.  I realized that way too many Republicans (pretty much all of them) I knew personally and knew of in the media viewed the world like this:  If it doesn't affect me *directly*, I don't care.  Trouble is I did and I do.  I think life should be about trying to make the world a better place not just for ourselves but for everyone we can.  The Republicans I know call this throwing money at the problem.  What's the alternative?  Doing nothing?  Eating and drinking in merry oblivion while they suffer and die when we have the money and power to do something about it?  And meanwhile try to "spread Democracy" to regions that just plain don't want it/didn't ask for it just because it furthers our own oil-hungry agenda?  I'd rather jab a sharp stick in my eye than subscribe to a policy like that.

[delalluvia]

I actually feel sorry for her. Think about it, if she agreed to marry a man she met via postal service, she must have been in a desperate situation. And her boyfriend was probably a poor boy who had no choice but to become a drug mule. People aren't always downright evil.

Hi opinionista,

Not sure why you would feel sorry for her.  If you missed it, she admitted she had no intention of ever MARRYING anyone.  What she wanted - and got - was a free trip to the U.S. so she could be with her boyfriend.

In case you also missed it, she took my relative's money under false pretenses and when he tried to right the wrong by sending her home, she also took that money as well and jumped ship.

Then she called to make fun of him.

This relative of mine - misguided or not - was in love with her.  So you also got his feelings wrapped up in this.

And you tell me you feel sorry for her.

OK, to each their own.

take our jobs!

, um, yeah.

Yes, my half-brother works in construction, yes, my cousin works in lawn care.  We're all from legal immigrants or were born here.  So I guess they could tell you who is 'taking their jobs' and who isn't.

And yes, there are people who are against ALL immigration.  Some others have no problem against immigrants, but have a lot of problems with ILLEGAL immigration.

There IS a difference.

So we have one 'side' demonizing illegal immigrants and we have another 'side' demonizing people who want to limit immigrants.

Hmmm...   

[delalluvia]

Well, at least we got a laugh out of that last line.  I too think this concept of staying to fight for a revolution when your economy stinks and your government is rife with corruption and you don't have food on the table is laughable. 

But then I was "lucky" enough to be born a white male in America (gay, yeah, but I can "pass" if need be), so what would I know about it?

rt and sparkle,

Today is Cinco de Mayo.  In which the Mexican army consisting of irregulars and peasant farmers armed with machetes and old rifles fought off the army of Napoleon III at Puebla.

I think you have a very strange idea of what people - poor or not - rallied properly can accomplish.  You guys seem to think that because they are poor, they are nothing but passive participants in life, helpless and can never accomplish anything unless they have help.  If you want to ignore the American Revolution, the French Revolution and various Mexican revolutions, be my guest, but the participants of those battles might surprise you.

[delalluvia]

ironically, outsourcing may be just the thing that solves immigration problems. at the heart of immigration issue, people want to come to the US for jobs, but if the jobs went to these people, they won't feel the need to come here any longer. Looking at India and China for instance. There has been a decline in immigration from these two countries in the last decade. Before immigrants who came here on student visa would try to shift to B1-H status. With the quota on how many can get work visa, the major of these student simply abandon their visa in order to stay in the US. That is happening much less these days, because the jobs are available back in India and China. I'm not saying that exporting high-tech jobs to Mexico would stop the tides of immigration, but it's a model worth studying in terms of dealing the issue.

This is very interesting  I'm not sure it would work well.  Many companies outsource in order to cut overhead.  There is a lot of abuse in 3rd world countries - sweat shops, Kathy Gifford, Union Carbide etc - when this kind of thing happens.  Those companies do business in certain areas because the worker protection laws are lax or non-existent.  This is how they save money.  If companies that outsourced overseas or in south of the border countries were held to the same stringent standards of safety, pay scale, benefits etc., as here in the U.S. it would no longer be cost-effective to outsource.

Also, companies are very hesitant to invest in Mexico after the last nationalization of everything seized American investments in that country.

[rtprod]

I think you have a very strange idea of what people - poor or not - rallied properly can accomplish.  You guys seem to think that because they are poor, they are nothing but passive participants in life, helpless and can never accomplish anything unless they have help.  If you want to ignore the American Revolution, the French Revolution and various Mexican revolutions, be my guest, but the participants of those battles might surprise you

Do you have a personal connection to this in any way?  Myself, I have lived in the same house with Mexican immigrants in my life and know their day to day struggles, straight A bilingual children who pay out of pocket for basic medical care, and they all live a hand to mouth existence.  They must sacrifice time with their children, decent living conditions and self-respect to satisfy basic human needs. They are interested in keeping their heads down and providing for themselves and their families.  They are not capable of or interested in revolution.  Period.  If you could see what I have seen, you might not feel so hardline on this. 

Further, many Mexican nationals love their country madly and wish they could make a go of it there, some dream of going back when they have a substantial financial standing while others want to remain here.  None I've seen have entered the country to commit crimes, defraud good people and sponge off social programs.  I just don't see it, sorry.  Perhaps my own experience has colored my view as well, but I'd rather error on the side of inclusion than otherwise.  That's just me. 

I'm sorry you can't see the human face of this issue, and sadly there are many who feel the same.  Let the generalizations sweep.  Sorry for the graphic nature of this photo, but this is the risk faced and unfortunate reality for, I'm sure, many:


 
This conversation has reached an exhausted dead end, in my book. 

rt   

[opinionista]

Hi opinionista,

Not sure why you would feel sorry for her.  If you missed it, she admitted she had no intention of ever MARRYING anyone.  What she wanted - and got - was a free trip to the U.S. so she could be with her boyfriend.

In case you also missed it, she took my relative's money under false pretenses and when he tried to right the wrong by sending her home, she also took that money as well and jumped ship.

Then she called to make fun of him.

This relative of mine - misguided or not - was in love with her.  So you also got his feelings wrapped up in this.

And you tell me you feel sorry for her.

OK, to each their own.
, um, yeah.

First of all, there was no need to be so nasty. I didn't mean to offend you. But it seemed to me that you brought up that relative of your's story to demonize immigrants in general.

You know, I'm sorry about your relative's feelings and i honestly think she didn't have a right to do what she did. But your story has nothing to do with the immigration issue. It is just a love story gone awry in which one of the parts happened to be an immigrant. He could've had the same experience with an american woman. 

And yes, I feel sorry for her because a person who does that kind of things is someone who didn't have healthy/happy upbringing. But that doesn't mean I condone her acts, but I do try to understand the situation she might be in and why she behaves the way she does. Maybe she's a bad person because bad people do exist, but she could also be a very troubled young woman.

There's too much hatred in the world already and we cannot come and think all immigrants are bad people because of stories like this one.

[sparkle_motion]

I think it comes down to whether you see immigrants as equals. It seems that some think that because they were born on american soil they should be allowed sole access to a better life. All people should be given the opportunity, no matter on which land you were born, to have a better life. Period.

[starboardlight]

This is very interesting  I'm not sure it would work well.  Many companies outsource in order to cut overhead.  There is a lot of abuse in 3rd world countries - sweat shops, Kathy Gifford, Union Carbide etc - when this kind of thing happens.  Those companies do business in certain areas because the worker protection laws are lax or non-existent.  This is how they save money.  If companies that outsourced overseas or in south of the border countries were held to the same stringent standards of safety, pay scale, benefits etc., as here in the U.S. it would no longer be cost-effective to outsource.

Also, companies are very hesitant to invest in Mexico after the last nationalization of everything seized American investments in that country.

you're right it wouldn't work, because this country has absolutely no interesting solving the issue, only to express anger and scape-goating immigrants. like i keep saying the issue is deeper than criminalizing immigrants and boarder control. Sweat shops offend American sensibilities, and yet those same people who would have been in sweat shops risking life and limbs to cross the boarder don't get any compassion. There are tough choices to make, but most Americans are not willing to even consider them. Like I keep saying, this country is only interested in getting angry, and our leaders exploit that for political purposes.

[Sheyne]

Hi opinionista,

Not sure why you would feel sorry for her.  If you missed it, she admitted she had no intention of ever MARRYING anyone.  What she wanted - and got - was a free trip to the U.S. so she could be with her boyfriend.

In case you also missed it, she took my relative's money under false pretenses and when he tried to right the wrong by sending her home, she also took that money as well and jumped ship.
Then she called to make fun of him.
This relative of mine - misguided or not - was in love with her.  So you also got his feelings wrapped up in this.

And you tell me you feel sorry for her.

Well actually, Del, I kinda felt sorry for her too. I don't see the world as black and white. There is always grey area. I think that our ability to be compassionate and our ability to forgive is one of few things that separate us from animals. People who live their lives without these things often live LIKE animals.

I'm not a religious person, by the way. But I believe in Karma, as I have seen - firsthand - that it is a very real thing. You cannot afford to be so hardass about the people that wrong you. Pity them for goodness sake, but don't condemn them. If people wrong you, they WILL be dealt with. You may not see it for yourself but it happens. I know of a girl who was raped by her grandfather - within 10 years of it happening, the man had arthritis in both hands so badly he couldn't hold a coffee cup. His eyesight deteriorated to the point he was legally blind. He was also impotent. Not a bad turnaround from a man who was otherwise very healthy, huh? And he died 15 years after that, very slowly and painfully. And do you know what? She not only visited his deathbed - twice - but she forgave him for he did to her, cause she could see that he needed it.

So you can be bitter and vindictive about immigrants because of one that you knew - albeit in a roundabout way - but why not take a broader view? My friend didn't hate her grandfather for what he did to her - in fact, she pondered what on earth could have happened to this man that he would DO such a thing to her.

And Sparkle - we should ALL see immigrants as equals. In fact, I cannot conceive of the person who'd dare look down their noses at those who've had a less fortunate life. What an arsehole they'd have to be! We definitely agree on that.  Its like the bullshit social class hierarchy that I battle with everyday as a school teacher. You see it in 6 and 7 year olds these days - no kid is going to walk around with their eyes downcast in my classroom cause they come from a poor background. The fact that its their instinct to do so pisses me off beyond the telling of it.

You wanna get a fire in your belly about something, Del? Get it about HELPING these people, not keeping your boot on top of their heads.

[delalluvia]

rtprod,

I think you're really missing the boat.  You refuse to acknowledge that poor people have and continue to, turn around things in their own countries whether violently or not

You refuse to acknowledge the facts of all the revolutions I've mentioned.

I'm beginning to think you're avoiding discussing these because they will ruin your argument about how people are just too poor to make any changes in their countries.

And honestly, it's beginning to smack of insulting to those people who actually did stand up and fight for change in their own countries.

"Wait!  You can't stand up and try to change your country!  You have to remain poor and downtrodden and oppressed so you can be rescued!"

Do I have a connection to this in anyway?

I grew up in a neighborhood full of illegal immigrants.  1/2 mile from the projects (govt housing) they call 'Little Mexico'.  They were my next door neighbors, the people across the street, my customers, some were my relatives.  My mother still lives there and she has illegal immigrants as neighbors.

And one of my ex-uncles by marriage used to be of those lovely purveyors of human misery - a coyote.  One of those who takes money from Mexican Nationals to smuggle them across the border.  So yes, my connection is pretty close.  Try nearly 3 decades close of living this.

Sheyne suggested I'm keeping my boot on top of their heads by not wanting to help them.

How about the poor people in this country?

We have poor here you know.  Quite a few of them.  The poor people in the South who were living on welfare and displaced by the hurricanes?  The dirt poor of the Appalachia regions?  Or finally, my own relatives, one branch of which was so poor, they couldn't afford to bury their loved one and the hat got passed around to the entire family to try to collect enough money.  Our public education system is a shambles, etc.. I get a fire in my belly, Sheyne, about helping all of them.

Apparently my compassion for them doesn't count? 

I might suggest the opposite.  That you're keeping your boot on top of illegal immigrants heads by implying that they're too poor to do anything and really need to go into a sort of patronage system with all the 'rich' people in the U.S. because they're really helpless. 

Do you understand how condescending and insulting that sounds?

star,

'Solving the issue'...you mean solving the problem of illegal immigration?  To fix the problem, instead of allowing illegal immigration and making those here citizens, that won't stop anything.  You're right.  That's only treating the symptoms and not the cause.  Which is, in this part of the country, the Mexican government/economy.

Now an earlier poster just lambasted the U.S. by our habit of going into countries who didn't ask for any help or want any changes in their way of doing things and forcing democracy on them.

Now, short of doing that since the U.S. is 'bad' for doing that, what do you suggest the U.S. do with the Mexican economy that doesn't require making them like us so that the Mexican nationals do not feel they have to cross the border?

opinionista and sheyne,

I wasn't mad, just confused.  I don't feel sorry for thieves who steal from hardworking people.  I didn't feel sorry for her because what she was doing was running a scam.  She was forming e-mail relationships with more than one man in the U.S. and whoever coughed up the money and airline ticket was the one she was going to 'marry'.  So she came here with no intention of following through, no sincerity, no honesty.  And when she wanted to meet her friend at the airport, she wanted to take my in-law's car.  Alone.

Would she have come back?  Or would he have been out a car as well?

Karma did catch up with her.  It put her boyfriend in jail, left her penniless and pregnant.

I consider it an immigration issue because she probably did prey on the sympathies of my in-law, but it was dishonest from the get-go.  Yes, he could have been bilked by some woman here, but not to become a citizen. 

sparkle

It seems that some think that because they were born on american soil they should be allowed sole access to a better life.

Do people think that in the U.K., France, Italy, Greece, Australia, etc?  Those are nice places to live too, I'm sure.

All people should be given the opportunity, no matter on which land you were born, to have a better life. Period.

Agreed.  And you have to work for it.  Make your country a better place to live if it is not.  Hard to do, but it's done by people with great vision and great determination.  That's why they're venerated, because they fought to make a difference.

[JennyC]

Everyone deserves a pat on the back for your compassion, your humanity, and your progressive views.  The first time I wanted to say that, there is part of me meant it sarcastically, but I do mean it sincerely now, very sincerely. We are a compassionate group of people that share progressive views on many social issues (You do know that we are minority in the US, right?) Even the people who disagree with you on certain things are also compassionate on human suffering.  Let’s not dismiss that.

As the thread grows, I see the discussion getting more and more polarized. There is the tendency to either demonize illegal immigrants as whole, or demonize anyone who suggests that there should be some control on immigrants.  Seems to me that “enforcement” or “control” are all taboo to be mentioned here.

I am not defending Del, as she is more than capable of defending herself, and I do disagree with her on some of her arguments. But she does have some valid points from the other side of the fence.  People tend to jump on certain controversial comments she made, but fails to recognize some of the valid points she presented.  Then the argument just got more heated. 

As to me, I don’t quite meet eye to eye with the rest of you on this issue either. I have asked more than once that if US can really afford to have a sustainable open door immigration policy, if US economy (even it’s the largest one in the world, it’s still has boundaries) and available resource can support such a policy.  What if we are talking about 1 billion immigrants who want to come here, can you still whole heartily welcome them. No one address that.  I don’t know whether because it’s such a dumb ass question, or because it really contradicts your ideology.

I share your ideology and its principle. Ideology is always grand, but ideology alone does not solve real world problems. There are a lot of ideology talks here, but not much analysis in the context of the issues and constrains we are facing today.  A policy or principle not only needs to address the current issue, but also gives consideration to the future implications.

Sheyne mentioned that people are in their Ivory Tower when talking about the issues in Africa or South America, very true.  On the other hand, my friends, aren’t we also in our own Ivory Tower to think that we can truly accommodate everyone’s (I mean everyone) pursuit of better life here.  Supply and Demand, it’s as simple as that. You need to have rules to regulate the demand. When you have to have rule, then you need to implement it and enforce it, because it’s the only way that it can be fair to everyone. You can not on one hand address the existing issue, but not to address the source of the problem.  It will only become an on-going problem. I just do not see how you can get around the obvious.  Am I so blind not seeing the reasons that you see?

My dear CT friends, people say that you should not discuss politics and religion with your friends.  It’s all dandy when everyone is in agreement, but can we really handle our differences?  Guess we are all human…

[delalluvia]

Well said, Jenny.

[starboardlight]

'Solving the issue'...you mean solving the problem of illegal immigration?  To fix the problem, instead of allowing illegal immigration and making those here citizens, that won't stop anything.  You're right.  That's only treating the symptoms and not the cause.  Which is, in this part of the country, the Mexican government/economy.

Now an earlier poster just lambasted the U.S. by our habit of going into countries who didn't ask for any help or want any changes in their way of doing things and forcing democracy on them.

Now, short of doing that since the U.S. is 'bad' for doing that, what do you suggest the U.S. do with the Mexican economy that doesn't require making them like us so that the Mexican nationals do not feel they have to cross the border?

it wouldn't have to be that extreme. I go back to India and China as examples. As they are now, they're no where near being just like the US, and we didn't force democracy on either of those countries. Free trading simply allowed these countries to develop to a point where their citizens saw hope in their future. I think allowing some of the jobs to migrate down south would help. But we also need to get the leaders of Mexico to address the issue from that side of the boarder too. There could be a harder push to help people find jobs and housing in Mexico. Just as FDR's WPA efforts helped American through the depression, Mexico could start similar campaigns, with American help. I definitely don't advocate American going in and dictating anything, but a cooperations could be reached.

Would allowing our manufacturing jobs to migrate down, be so bad? Sure there'll be issues with sweatshops, but that's something that we can deal with as consumers making informed choices (consumer advocacy did push for Nike, Gap, Mattel, among other companies and their off shore manufacturing plants  to adopt more worker friendly processes), as well as something the Mexican workers have to determine for themselves. In addition, protectionism is not an economic policy that can be sustained very long in a global economy anyway. Some Americans will lose jobs as these jobs migrate downward, but that's not new, as time and technology evolves. We seen it through out the industrial age. People adapt as new technology create new jobs.

[JennyC]

Del,

As a friend, I still have to respectfully disagree with some of your views on current illegal immigrants.  Based on my experience, immigrants (legal or illegal) are general hard working and law biding members of the society, because they cherish the opportunity they get.  It sounds like you have known more than your share of bad apples, but that can not be generalized to the entire immigrants.  The illegal immigrants do play an important role in today’s economy, and I don’t think we can easily dismiss their contribution to the economy.  Without them, we will feel the impact in our everyday life, particularly where you are and where I am.  That said, I don’t think you have suggested deportation is the right solution.

I am not looking to get into argument with you .  You are entitled to your opinion. If we can not convince each other, that’s fine, at least we know where we are coming from (I mean the area).   My focus on this issue is more on what we should do to improve the current situation, hence the enforcement aspect and provide current illegal immigrants means to legalize their status.

Talk to you guys later, if you are still interested in continue the discussion in a less confrontational way.

[delalluvia]

Del,
As a friend, I still have to respectfully disagree with some of your views on current illegal immigrants.  Based on my experience, immigrants (legal or illegal) are general hard working and law biding members of the society, because they cherish the opportunity they get.  It sounds like you have known more than your share of bad apples, but that can not be generalized to the entire immigrants.  The illegal immigrants do play an important role in today’s economy, and I don’t think we can easily dismiss their contribution to the economy.  Without them, we will feel the impact in our everyday life, particularly where you are and where I am.  That said, I don’t think you have suggested deportation is the right solution.

I am not looking to get into argument with you .  You are entitled to your opinion. If we can not convince each other, that’s fine, at least we know where we are coming from (I mean the area).   My focus on this issue is more on what we should do to improve the current situation, hence the enforcement aspect and provide current illegal immigrants means to legalize their status.

Talk to you guys later, if you are still interested in continue the discussion in a less confrontational way.

Hiya Jenny,

No offense taken.  There really isn't a consensus on how to handle the situation.  And while I agree that our current administration has dragged this issue out in the spotlight in yet another opportunity to polarize the nation, it IS a problem that has been ongoing for decades that has never been adequately addressed and it needs to be.

Perhaps it's that the closer you are to the border and you see how heavily impacted social services/schools and neighborhoods are by the influx of illegal immigration, the more obvious it becomes that this isn't an innocuous situation that our society can - as a whole - keep absorbing without economic repercussions.

I've never suggested we ship illegal immigrants home, I have nothing against legal immigrants.  Yes, I have had many bad experiences with illegal immigrants over the decades.

I wondered earlier, if rtprod's excellent experiences with illegal immigrants had to do with the fact that he is, indeed, a white male and that many of my bad experiences came from the fact that I am not.  In the Hispanic community, the patriarchy is alive and well.

But I don't think they are ALL bad people, of course not.

I just don't tend to idealize people.  I don't care who they are or what they've been through.

As has been pointed out to me, illegal immigrants are humans too and as such not everyone is a saintly, hard-working soul who only wants to do good and not all of them are skanky conwomen.  They are people just like everyone else.

They can be the carload of young men who wrecked my car and drove off without bothering to see if I had even survived the crash and they can be Ahmed the manager of the convenience store who saw the whole thing and ran out to help me and offered to be a witness if I ever caught the guys.

As for the impact of their work, I would be very interested in reading any material/articles etc on exactly what that amounts to.  I'm fairly sure there should be SOMEthing coming out soon that says what we as a nation lost dollar-wise on the day they left work.  After all, we get little news blips about how much work dollars were lost when the White Sox won the World Series or people took off to go see 'The Phantom Menace' back in '99 and this is a bit more important than that.

I don't think making them citizens will solve any problems.  We will just have 11 milliion new citizens and the illegal immigration will continue.  As I suggested to star, to fix the influx we have to make - at least in the south - Mexico a good place to live and work.

What I see as an economic issue is that many - not all - but many are essentially unslkilled labor.  Such jobs are rapidly falling by the wayside - assembly plants are closing, textile mills are long gone, many agricultural jobs have been turned over to mechanization, etc - I wonder if there is much of a future for such jobs and job holders.

As star pointed out, there may be a loss of such jobs, but technology marches on and people have to adapt.  After all, there used to be a whaling industry and people made their livelihoods on that.

I read a small article once on the outsourcing in India.  How many young people were eager for the jobs since they paid 3 or more times the going wage (which is still pitifully small compared to the U.S.) but I don't know exactly what their working conditions are.

I think star's idea is pretty valid but there has to be some understanding between our two governments.  The US could help with money or better yet, 'advisors' and building materials/technology, people who are not necessarily 'running the show' as Americans are often arrogantly described as doing, but people who are there to get the job done and report any suspicious activity to the U.S. authorities so that any hint of corruption or bribery is dealt with with the full cooperation of the Mexican govt.  That way, the social programs he suggested would run smoothly and cost-effectively with only a modicum of corruption.

[sparkle_motion]

Perhaps it's that the closer you are to the border and you see how heavily impacted social services/schools and neighborhoods are by the influx of illegal immigration, the more obvious it becomes that this isn't an innocuous situation that our society can - as a whole - keep absorbing without economic repercussions.


I wondered earlier, if rtprod's excellent experiences with illegal immigrants had to do with the fact that he is, indeed, a white male and that many of my bad experiences came from the fact that I am not.  In the Hispanic community, the patriarchy is alive and well.

But I don't think they are ALL bad people, of course not.

I just don't tend to idealize people.  I don't care who they are or what they've been through.

As has been pointed out to me, illegal immigrants are humans too and as such not everyone is a saintly, hard-working soul who only wants to do good and not all of them are skanky conwomen.  They are people just like everyone else.

As someone who grew up in Grand Prairie for a couple of years (and since you're from this area, I'm sure you know about GP. I was only 1 of 3 white kids in my elementary class), I feel that I have seen first hand what immigration can do to a community. The good and bad. And I still say, they have EVERY RIGHT to come here and try to make a life for themselves as we do.
No one here is glorifying illegal immigrants. No one here is "idealizing" them either.
But you seem to vilify them and it seems like it's merely based on your personal experience. And based on this experience, you're making broad generalizations about 12 million people.

[delalluvia]

As someone who grew up in Grand Prairie for a couple of years (and since you're from this area, I'm sure you know about GP. I was only 1 of 3 white kids in my elementary class), I feel that I have seen first hand what immigration can do to a community. The good and bad. And I still say, they have EVERY RIGHT to come here and try to make a life for themselves as we do.
No one here is glorifying illegal immigrants. No one here is "idealizing" them either.
But you seem to vilify them and it seems like it's merely based on your personal experience. And based on this experience, you're making broad generalizations about 12 million people.

I'm sorry, sparkle but if you read some posts, what you read is a very idealized version of immigrants.  I simply pointed out the opposite side of this.  Yes, some are nice people, some are not. 

The idea that you continue to say I'm 'vilifying' them without acknowledging the fact that there are indeed bad apples who deserve to be vilified pretty much tells me that you are 'idealizing' them.

And as for

they have EVERY RIGHT to come here and try to make a life for themselves as we do.

please read Jenny's post.  She asked how this was going to be economically feasible and she pointed out that she has asked this many times and has received no answer other than a very 'pie in the sky' "Everyone deserves to come here to make a better life".

'Everyone'?  How many is that?  11 million, 100 million, 1 billion?

Please state your thoughts on how to make this economically feasible to the taxpayers of the country.

[sparkle_motion]

I'm sorry, sparkle but if you read some posts, what you read is a very idealized version of immigrants.  I simply pointed out the opposite side of this.  Yes, some are nice people, some are not. 

The idea that you continue to say I'm 'vilifying' them without acknowledging the fact that there are indeed bad apples who deserve to be vilified pretty much tells me that you are 'idealizing' them.

And as for
please read Jenny's post.  She asked how this was going to be economically feasible and she pointed out that she has asked this many times and has received no answer other than a very 'pie in the sky' "Everyone deserves to come here to make a better life".

'Everyone'?  How many is that?  11 million, 100 million, 1 billion?

Please state your thoughts on how to make this economically feasible to the taxpayers of the country.

I am not an economist. I can't give you a solution (you can't either, obviously) to this problem. But I KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT. And I know it is NOT right to keep people from having a healthier, happier, better life because they were not born on your soil! It's ridiculous! You are villifying them, period. You point out there are some bad apples and NO ONE is disagreeing you with. But what you fail to realize is there are bad apples EVERYWHERE. So, in your opinion because some are bad apples, then they should ALL be punished.

[opinionista]

Please state your thoughts on how to make this economically feasible to the taxpayers of the country

Well, I thought the discussion was whether illegal immigrant should be sent to jail. Anyway, finding a solution to stop them from coming in is not in our hands as citizens but in the hands of those who run their country and ours. They have to sit down and find a solution.

As for the ones who are already in the country, the best thing to do, in my opinion, is to allow them become legal resident or citizens so they can get a decent job and become tax payers themselves. Immigrants do not steal jobs. That idea is silly and racist. It's also untrue. A whole lot of them open their own business and actually provide employment for other citizens.  In cities like Miami, New York, or LA you'll see a lot of successful businesses that are immigrant-owned.

A lot are bilingual which is a big plus nowadays. I have met several immigrants from different countries that are excellent professionals and great to work with. I've had my share of immigrant co-workers during my career as a journalist and can't complaint.

It's true that some are illiterate, but have other skills that America society could use of its benefit. They know how to work in farms, how to handle cattle, some could be excellent herders, built houses, etc. Some women are good caretakers, cooks, seamstresses and so on. It's a matter of giving an opportunity. And of course, there will always be bad apples who would rather engage in criminal activities to earn easy money than actually work, but that also happens among Americans citizens.

[delalluvia]

I am not an economist. I can't give you a solution (you can't either, obviously) to this problem. But I KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT. And I know it is NOT right to keep people from having a healthier, happier, better life because they were not born on your soil! It's ridiculous! You are villifying them, period. You point out there are some bad apples and NO ONE is disagreeing you with. But what you fail to realize is there are bad apples EVERYWHERE. So, in your opinion because some are bad apples, then they should ALL be punished.

sparkle,

No, you're not an economist, but you're a thinking person who is capable of voting.  I know you feel strongly about this issue, but so do I and so do many other people.  Yes, everyone deserves to have a nice happy healthy life. 

Now that the idealism has been firmly planted, let's talk about getting it to be a reality.

Not to further polarize the issue, but this is exactly what conservatives are always criticizing liberals about.  That we  have all these great optimistic idealistic dreams about a world in harmony but no real concrete ideas on how to make it work and who is supposed to pay for it.

Here are just a few typical conservative comments.  Mostly about liberals being closet socialiists who don't support or don't agree with the capitalist system and that "liberals live in a dream world of pink unicorns where money grows on trees" .  I've actually been accused of this kind of thinking:

"Each according to their abilities.  (Open borders crowd and each according to their needs.)  Why work???  All a part of Lenin's Communist Manifesto."

AND

"The real issue is this.  If we did let them all in, or grant them amnesty which is what the senate and white house are proposing, what makes them think these new LEGAL workers will work for the crap wages, when they will qualify for all the goodies the welfare state has to offer.  That is the government will do to them what they have done to the poor since LBJ's great society. Encourage them to stay at home and not work.  Encourage them to not get married, so they can qualify for AFDC.  The whole gambit.  Ensuring their poverty to continue.  The real program would be to do things to encourage families to stay together, and work to improve their situation."
 
AND


"I think everyone in America deserves a fair chance at a comfortable life ...but it is in no way guaranteed and by no means the job of the federal government to make sure it happens. This is the primary reason I consider myself a conservative (notice I didn't say republican, who have proven themselves less than conservative lately...)

Now is the time to show the conservatives that liberals can and do live in a realistic world and can make living conditions work for everyone.

I'm not much of a socialist/marxist/communist whatever myself.  I bellieve people who work for their goods in life should be able to keep them and not have the wealth re-distributed on a grand scale.

So, back to the problem at hand.

star has made a very good suggestion.  I back his idea.  Any others?

In Texas, many border areas and large metropolitan areas are ovewhelmed in their social services/medical aid/schooling.

Many illegal aliens are already paying taxes (if they have fake SS#s, then their employers are deducting from their payroll checks the correct amount of FICA taxes, if they're getting paid cash, then they usually buy local goods and pay a little in sales taxes.  I can't say how many actually file and pay federal income taxes).

And yet all this contribution is not helping matters and Texans already feel they pay too many and too much in taxes as it is.

THESE are the problems that need to be overcome and discussed and solutions found.

opinionista

Anyway, finding a solution to stop them from coming in is not in our hands as citizens but in the hands of those who run their country and ours. They have to sit down and find a solution.

I agree, but why should they?  Their needy people fleeing to another country certainly doesn't bother them.  They're just 11 million people less to worry about.  This is why it is OUR problem and why WE have to initiate the dialogue and solution with these countries.

[JennyC]

Obviously we all did not read every post clearly.  I doubt if we all read every posts.  

Again, no one suggested that illegal immigrants should be sent to jail or ship home. There may be some comments made in the heat of argument to let out the frustration of how some illegal immigrants are indeed bad apples (the argument also made the other way on there are bad apples in every group, even citizens), but again if you read through their posts, they did not say the solution is to sent the current illegal immigrants to jail to ship them home.

No offense, but we have enough ideology talks here, no real solutions.  I am interested to know what do you think should be a practical, fair, and fiscal responsible solution package.  Maybe it’s too heavy a topic

[opinionista]

I agree, but why should they?  Their needy people fleeing to another country certainly doesn't bother them.  They're just 11 million people less to worry about.  This is why it is OUR problem and why WE have to initiate the dialogue and solution with these countries.

Actually, losing people to emigration can be a big problem to a country.  I don't know about big countries like Mexico or China that are over populated. But the likes of Cuba, Ecuador, Argentina and so on actually suffer from the heavy emigration flow. They're losing skilled personnel which could pose a treath to their economic growth and developtment. Spain for instance, had a massive 'brain drain' during the 1930's and 1960's because of Franco's rule. It had an important impact on the country, and some of the consequences of it are still felt today. 

Also, emigration boosts underground economies on both sides of the border. Drug traffiking organizations hire immigrant as mules, drug sellers, etc. in exchange of helping them to cross the border. It fuels the creation of other mafia organizations that work for legal companies bringing in illegal immigrant to work for low wages, or sell false passports, visas and other documents that might help them cross the border for exhorbitants amounts of money.

It also gives a county a bad image, and has a negative effects on their diplomatic relationships with other countries.

The list is long. But you have a point though.  Saddly, some politicians couldn't care less and  won't do anything about it until the whole thing begins to pose threats to their interests.

Again, no one suggested that illegal immigrants should be sent to jail or ship home.

I didn't say anyone here said that. The whole illegal immigration issue that's going on at the moment is about a law that would make them all criminals, isn't it?

I am interested to know what do you think should be a practical, fair, and fiscal responsible solution package

That's a hard question to answer because things aren't that easy and there are a lot of issues to consider when finding a solution to solve one of the world's oldest problem: immigration.  It's complicated problem that require complicated solutions as well, because there are too many interests involved. Do you have the right solution? I think not.

There are several things to consider. For example: US corporations.They contribute a big deal to illegal immigration by lobbying members of the Congress and paying for their campaigns in exchange for international agreements between the US and some third world countries that are beneficial for them but not to those countries' citizens. Exxon Mobile and other companies alike, had control over Venezuela's oil resources for a while until Chavez came in and put a stop to that. They were getting richer and richer while venezuelans were getting poorer and poorer, so common folks like you and me, had no choice but to leave the country. Mexico have similar problems.

I'm not saying US is the only and one responsible for those countries poverty, because we have to take into account the corruption and acts of greed by some third world countries lawmakers and politicians, but it does contribute a lot to their poverty and to illegal immigration.

[JennyC]

opinionista,

The whole illegal immigration issue that's going on at the moment is about a law that would make them all criminals, isn't it?

I assume this refer to both the current illegal immigrants in the US as well as any future ones.  I think both the house and the senate got the message now.  Discussions like this and the protests through out the country in recent weeks delivered that message. 

For the existing illegal immigrants/undocumented workers, some program should be set up to provide them a road map to help them legalize their status here. Again, this is not amnesty, they should provide that they are contributing and law biding (not including entering the county illegally) members of the society.  And they should not get ahead of others who are in the process and come here legally.  I have friends in both boats, legally, illegally (some of them have over stayed their visa). When funding and staffing are limited, some one has to give and become the collateral damage.  I am afraid that this will inevitably impact those who decide to play by the rule. If I look the big picture, I hope that by everyone making some concession and enduring some suffering, the whole situation can be greatly improved.

Being realistic on the immigration issue, I think the enforcement aspect of immigration control is still necessary to if not stop, at least contain this vicious circle.   This include tightening border control and also putting pressure on employer to not hire illegal immigrants to take advantage of their low labor cost. If there is labor shortage in certain section of the US economy, like agriculture for example, or immigrants help to boom economy, then by all means provide them the legal way to get here and remove the road blocks in the process.  We all know that we can not live beyond our means, without any kind of enforcement; we are literally live beyond what the economy can support.

If you catch illegal immigrants at the border, then either send them home or see if the any of the current immigration path applies to them.  Today, there are asylum, refugee, special immigrants, employer based immigrants (assuming guess worker will be in this category), family sponsored immigration, etc.  Oh hi, there is the immigration lottery.  According to Department of State, 50,000 immigrants are admitted into US in the past five years.  But this does not apply to the following countries: CANADA, CHINA (mainland-born), COLOMBIA, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, EL SALVADOR, HAITI, INDIA, JAMAICA, MEXICO, PAKISTAN, PHILIPPINES, POLAND, RUSSIA, SOUTH KOREA, UNITED KINGDOM (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and VIETNAM. Persons born in Hong Kong SAR, Macau SAR and Taiwan are eligible. 

I have two friends, one is Brazilian, one from a country that is part of the former Soviet Union (the name does not come to my mind now) got their green card through the lottery system.

Del,

I agree with star's analysis on declining immigrants from Indian and China.  Have to get to this one next time.

I have found a very interesting Immigration Studies on Center for Immigration Studies’s website.  It’s done by two economists.  It’s a short document, but if you find the paper boring, just read the first page. See attached file.

NPR also has a quite comprehensive webpage organizing various topics on Immigration Debate: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5310549&sourceCode=gaw

[opinionista]

Being realistic on the immigration issue, I think the enforcement aspect of immigration control is still necessary to if not stop, at least contain this vicious circle.

US has been tightening its border since forever, and it hasn't exactly worked. They always find a way to come in. To competely close a border is like trying to cover the sky with your hands. I'm sorry but that's not realistic. Do you know what Cubans are doing now to enter the states? Instead of taking a so called balsa and go to Miami, they go to Mona, a small Island a few miles off Puerto Rico's coast that falls inside the US border. Once there, they're officially on US territory and cannot be sent back to Cuba.

Moreover, thousands of immigrant from Dominican Republic enter Puerto Rico everyday through sea. Some are caught but the great majority are successful. They stay on the island a few years, manage to pick a Puerto Rican accent and since they look a lot like us, they travel to US mainland posing like Puerto Ricans.

Puerto Rico belongs to the US and Puerto Ricans are american citizens, so all flights from and to mainland are domestic. There can be no passport control at airports because that'll be like asking people from Boston to show their passports before entering New York. Stopping immigrants is next to impossible.

But I don't completely disagree with you. I wrote a post where I said that the best way to deal with the illegal immigrants that are already in the country is to provide them with the tools to become legal resident and law abiding citizens. But that won't eliminate illegal immigration as a national problem. Something else has to be done. A lot of these people migrate because they have no other choice, if they could stay where they belong they would.

[delalluvia]

Del,

I agree with star's analysis on declining immigrants from Indian and China.  Have to get to this one next time.

I have found a very interesting Immigration Studies on Center for Immigration Studies’s website.  It’s done by two economists.  It’s a short document, but if you find the paper boring, just read the first page. See attached file.

NPR also has a quite comprehensive webpage organizing various topics on Immigration Debate: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5310549&sourceCode=gaw

Thanks for the link and the attached file.  Interesting reading.  The Immigration Study is pretty much what I've heard from others, wages and quality of living will go up for the immigrants, but wages will be cut and quality of living go down for the natives.

[littledarlin]

Again, no one suggested that illegal immigrants should be sent to jail or ship home.

sorry i haven't been on lately.  i lost track of the threads.  but i just wanted to point out that i did say something like this, not that i WANT this, but that this is what the government was trying to do with the bill that barely got knocked down recently.  they wanted to send illegal immigrants who have not been here for x amount of time back to their original country for x amount of time before allowing them back.  which if this would've passed, we know that 99% of the people that had to go through with this would not make it back here.

so i apologize if i caused any confusion!  i was just opposing what the government was trying to do, and i put it in blunt terms.

now i have catching up to do..

[JennyC]

Andrew, I was wondering where you guys were.  Seems the discussion came to a stand still on what could be done in the future, and no easy middle ground .

Anyway I like the direction we are going.  When emotion does not run high, we could have a more peaceful discussion.  It’s also easier to see other side of the arguments this way.

And thanks for your work on PT archive  !

[isabelle]

Littledarlin, when are you? Have you just vanished into thin air?
Been reading your posts on immigration, and I agree with you 100%.