Author Topic: Stay Home.  (Read 40527 times)

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2006, 08:43:51 am »
it just kills me that bush can let the UAE control our ports, but the real problem is people coming over here from mexico who want a better life for their families?

The problem I have with this argument is yet another one of economics.  I understand refugees and political asylum and people crossing borders to escape persecution.

To cross a border illegally to better one's life?  Um, if they wanted to better their lives, why don't they come here legally?  To come to a nation to better one's self and start this experience by breaking the laws of said country, not paying taxes and using up social services isn't the way to do it and is a slap in the face to this country.

In the example of Mexico, the government of Mexico is not going to feel the pressure it needs to to change its stance on providing services for its own people or try to improve economic conditions for them if many of their citizens know they can always just leave to go to the U.S. if they wanted to.  The people who stay and fight for better conditions in their own country are what cause changes.

The situation isn't going to change if people just bail.

Offline starboardlight

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,127
    • nipith.com
Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2006, 12:35:06 pm »
To cross a border illegally to better one's life?  Um, if they wanted to better their lives, why don't they come here legally?  To come to a nation to better one's self and start this experience by breaking the laws of said country, not paying taxes and using up social services isn't the way to do it and is a slap in the face to this country.

because it takes money to do it legally, money that they simply don't have. much less the understanding of the US bureaucracy to even comprehend the complex process. Have you looked into what it takes to get a work visa for the US? You have to be sponsored by an employer, in an industry that is high demand for high skill labor. "High skill" reads as jobs requiring college education. Architecture, yes. Janitorial jobs, no, lettuce picking, no. construction, no. The sponsoring employee has to be willing to do the paper, meaning deal with the bureaucracy of the Department of Justice. The employer has to be willing to pay the $2000 application fee, per employee they sponsor. Those two factors alone will deter most employers from hiring non-Americans. In addition to that, the employer has to wait the couple of months for approval. Until then you can't start working. When an employer decided to hire someone, they need someone now, not someone two months from now. And even then, it's not guaranteed, because there is a quota every year for the number of cases the DOJ will approve. So an employer may go through all this, pay $2000 and still not get approval. To get a green card sponsorship is even more frustrating. An employer has to prove that he/she has tried for a year to find qualified workers and failed, so must hire an immigrant. Most do that by placing a want ad in news paper for a certain period of time. The application fee for that is even more prohibitive.

For the low skill workers, there really isn't a viable route for working in the US legally. Let's face it, when you're willing to risk the harsh desert border crossing, you're in an economically desperate situation. I can't fault them for wanting to take that risk. I think I would do the same. The guess worker program will make it easier some workers, but I still don't see it as stemming the tides of illegal immigrants. There will definitely be a quota. In any case the DOJ just can't get to approving all the cases fast enough. They're back logged as it is with legal cases. The usual time for approving green card cases is 5 years. It's stretching out to nearly 10 years now. I have a friend going through this. The DOJ is just approving cases from 1997 right now.

And this is where the resentment from legal immigrants come from. The back log for legal immigration is frustrating enough for those still waiting for their cases to be reviewed, and Congress is putting illegal immigrant issue ahead of theirs. If you've been waiting for nearly 10 years for your green card, and all the sudden illegal immigrants will suddenly get their before yours, you'd be resentful too.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

TJ

  • Guest
Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2006, 07:39:38 pm »
Many years ago, a couple who had travelled from a country south of Mexico came into the USA (I forgot which country it was).

Immigration authorities asked the man and his wife separately why they came to the USA.

Both of them answered to get jobs. They were not allowed to stay in the country.

The news report said that the officials themself said in words to this effect, "If they had asked for political asylum instead since they were from a country which had a dictator and claimed that they wanted to be free, they could have legally stayed."

In the early 1990s, I made two round trips by Amtrak between LA and San Diego. On one of the return trips to LA, just north of San Diego at one of the stops, Immigration folks got on the train. One of them spoke in English to a young man who was in the car that I was in. But, the fellow did not understand what he said. Since I used to be a Spanish teacher, I understood all of the rest of the conversation.

They asked the guy where he was born and he said, "Pasadena." (That's where the Rose Parade takes place.)

Then he was told, if you were born in Pasadena, California, you  would have at least know what I was talking about when I spoke to you in English."

The young man was taken off the train.

I look at this immigration from the POV of a card-carrying Native American (I am a member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.) The English Speaking Europeans came to this part of the world and demanded the Natives forget their natiive tongues and speak only English. Even into the 1st half of the 20th Century, Native children were taken from their parents and put in church own mission schools by the federal goverment.

If the children were heard to speak even one word of their native tongue, they were severely punished. A friend of mine's mother, who was 1/2 Kiowa and 1/2 European whatever, was sent to one of those schools.

I don't have a problem with those who wish to be legally in the USA and want to become American citizens. But, those who want to claim equal rights as American born and naturalized citizens and still be Mexican and send money to support people in Mexico is a different matter.

My friend, Ken, mentioned about the Vietnamese who became citizens after they came to the USA. I told him that quite a few of them actually knew English as second language before they left Nam. (I am a US Army Vietnam veteran.)

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2006, 07:49:16 pm »
Andrew, I couldn't agree with you more.  It is veiled racism, and very thinly-veiled at that.
No more beans!

Offline RouxB

  • BetterMost Welcome Wagon & Contributor
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,471
  • ...a love that will never grow old
Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2006, 08:51:55 pm »
Nipith-brilliant as always.

If you haven't seen it, I would really recommend renting "A Day Without A Mexican". We get feed so much BS from the government about immigration and the "drain" on society. California's economy is hugely dependent on undocumented workers. The hypocracy just chafes my hinnie.

 O0

Heathen

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2006, 09:29:50 pm »
To cross a border illegally to better one's life?  Um, if they wanted to better their lives, why don't they come here legally?  To come to a nation to better one's self and start this experience by breaking the laws of said country, not paying taxes and using up social services isn't the way to do it and is a slap in the face to this country.

because it takes money to do it legally, money that they simply don't have. much less the understanding of the US bureaucracy to even comprehend the complex process. Have you looked into what it takes to get a work visa for the US?


Bingo!  Exactly.  Guess what.  Sometimes you don't get what you want in life because it's out of your price range.  Is it therefore justifiable to obtain it illegally?

Ends justifying the means?

That's a can of worms you don't want to open otherwise there's quite a bit in life that I would like but the price range is out of my league.  By this standard, it's OK for me to pursue this desire by any means available, legal or illegal.

I was watching the news and listening to a comment one woman said about keeping her children home so she could show her support and prove to her children that their mother wasn't a 'criminal'.

Then the news went on to comment that the woman had gotten here illegally.

Um, what part of 'breaking the law' concept did she fail to grasp?  This flexibility in ethics/morals is what gets my family bashed by uninsured motorists who happened to be illegal aliens because obeying laws of traffic and getting insurance is something they can take or leave when it suits their purpose.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 09:32:32 pm by delalluvia »

Offline sparkle_motion

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 432
  • Stacey.
Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2006, 09:44:03 pm »
To cross a border illegally to better one's life?  Um, if they wanted to better their lives, why don't they come here legally?  To come to a nation to better one's self and start this experience by breaking the laws of said country, not paying taxes and using up social services isn't the way to do it and is a slap in the face to this country.

because it takes money to do it legally, money that they simply don't have. much less the understanding of the US bureaucracy to even comprehend the complex process. Have you looked into what it takes to get a work visa for the US?


Bingo!  Exactly.  Guess what.  Sometimes you don't get what you want in life because it's out of your price range.  Is it therefore justifiable to obtain it illegally?

Ends justifying the means?

That's a can of worms you don't want to open otherwise there's quite a bit in life that I would like but the price range is out of my league.  By this standard, it's OK for me to pursue this desire by any means available, legal or illegal.

I was watching the news and listening to a comment one woman said about keeping her children home so she could show her support and prove to her children that their mother wasn't a 'criminal'.

Then the news went on to comment that the woman had gotten here illegally.

Um, what part of 'breaking the law' concept did she fail to grasp?  This flexibility in ethics/morals is what gets my family bashed by uninsured motorists who happened to be illegal aliens because obeying laws of traffic and getting insurance is something they can take or leave when it suits their purpose.


There's a difference between wanting a more expensive wardrobe/car/house/electronics and wanting to move to another country where your children might not be in danger of dying of starvation and where your children will have a chance in life.
...then you ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for needing somethin' I don't hardly never get.

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2006, 09:54:04 pm »
To cross a border illegally to better one's life?  Um, if they wanted to better their lives, why don't they come here legally?  To come to a nation to better one's self and start this experience by breaking the laws of said country, not paying taxes and using up social services isn't the way to do it and is a slap in the face to this country.

because it takes money to do it legally, money that they simply don't have. much less the understanding of the US bureaucracy to even comprehend the complex process. Have you looked into what it takes to get a work visa for the US?


Bingo!  Exactly.  Guess what.  Sometimes you don't get what you want in life because it's out of your price range.  Is it therefore justifiable to obtain it illegally?

Ends justifying the means?

That's a can of worms you don't want to open otherwise there's quite a bit in life that I would like but the price range is out of my league.  By this standard, it's OK for me to pursue this desire by any means available, legal or illegal.

I was watching the news and listening to a comment one woman said about keeping her children home so she could show her support and prove to her children that their mother wasn't a 'criminal'.

Then the news went on to comment that the woman had gotten here illegally.

Um, what part of 'breaking the law' concept did she fail to grasp?  This flexibility in ethics/morals is what gets my family bashed by uninsured motorists who happened to be illegal aliens because obeying laws of traffic and getting insurance is something they can take or leave when it suits their purpose.


There's a difference between wanting a more expensive wardrobe/car/house/electronics and wanting to move to another country where your children might not be in danger of dying of starvation and where your children will have a chance in life.

sparkle,

Perhaps, and this is just a thought, if they're lving in such terrible conditions, maybe they shouldn't have had children.  I mean, that's what other people do.  If I can hardly feed myself, why would I want to reproduce and have even MORE mouths to feed?

And also, perhaps in this country, we want to have $$ so we don't starve in the streets since we're working at a job that barely pays the bills let alone leaves any $ for a permanent home or retirement.  Yes, some people in this country end up on the streets as well, despite all the opportunities and good education.

That's a pretty good goal IMO.  What do you think?  Is that worthy of doing something illegal to keep this from happening?  You tell me.

Offline JennyC

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 812
Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2006, 10:01:34 pm »
Is it just me or it’s really hot here?   :)

Offline littledarlin

  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • ****
  • Posts: 169
  • darlin=andrew, guitar=mandy
Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2006, 10:39:12 pm »
Is it just me or it’s really hot here?   :)

lol!  so much to respond to, i don't know where to begin.

Quote
Perhaps, and this is just a thought, if they're lving in such terrible conditions, maybe they shouldn't have had children.  I mean, that's what other people do.  If I can hardly feed myself, why would I want to reproduce and have even MORE mouths to feed?

del, that makes perfect sense, and i totally agree with it, but things don't always work out that way.  some people get married, buy a house, have kids, and then lose their jobs.  or run themselves up with debt and file for bankruptcy.  or one of the parents goes crazy and kills someone.  or one of the parents gets eaten by a shark.  i mean we can plan as much as possible, and most people probably don't plan, things just happen and they work with what they have.  people should not be punished for things that happen that are out of their control. 

as far as illegal immigrants being, well, illegal, if we enforced every law, this country would not be in the state it is now.  but instead CEOs run companies to the ground and make out like bandits, corporations outsource illegally do avoid paying taxes, there's fraud, embezzelment, you name it corporate america has done it.  but thanks to lobbyists and no-bid contracts and so on it usually ends up going under the radar, unless you're a woman (see: martha stewart). 

and we are talking billions up here.  BILLIONS.  but people don't care about that.  they care about the mothers on welfare, and the immigrants getting healthcare on their dime.  if we had any say of where out tax dollars went, then maybe an argument about taxpayers money would hold up, but we don't.  i'd rather have my tax dollars going to schools, immigrants, and welfare than war-mongering, churches, and paying right-wingers paychecks.  but what do i do?  quit my job?  live on the street?  as a form of protest?  props to anyone who can do that, but i can't.

nipith got everything right.  i used to wonder the same thing myself when i was younger, why not just come legally.  but when you've been around enough immigrants, you begin to see how hard it is. 

i don't even want to TRAVEL to a non-english speaking country before knowing at least the basics of the language.   but that's just me, and some countries do require you to speak the fluent language, but we can not force people to learn english.  that's what translators are for.  if someone doesn't want to learn, or have the resources to learn english, they should have a say in the matter.  would learning the national language enhance your experience?  yes.  we have to remember that most illegal immigrants come here without high school education, let alone college education.  again, we don't know WHY, every person is different.  i dropped out of high school because i hated it.  i couldn't afford to go to college, and i was born here! 

anyway, back to the argument of "just don't do it".  if i had a dollar for every pregnant teenage american i've met i'd be rich.  so few people plan families, they just happen.  it's the middle class american way.  someone brought up native americans, i mean come on!  by these standards we should all be speaking the dialects for our regions.  and the vietnamese immigrants!  my second family immigrated from vietnam illegally, it took them years, but they finally became legal.  but shit!  if we lived in vietnam after what we did to that country, getting papers would be the last thing on my mind. 

there are SO many issues with this that will take forever to correct.  we just have to remember that we are all human, and as long as we ain't hurtin' nobody, there's no reason to hate eachother.  the land doesn't belong to any one person more than the next, regardless of where they're from. 

sorry, i feel bad.  you all articulate responses, i rant  >:(
We can hug on November, caress and nice oak.