Author Topic: Stay Home.  (Read 40926 times)

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #80 on: May 05, 2006, 01:48:03 am »
Come on, fair go.  To all those who think immigration isn't an idea they'd entertain, imagine the lengths you'd go to in order to protect your family and loved ones should terrorist attacks like 9/11 be happening once a month in your country?  If i knew there was a safer place where i could start all over again, I'd be there in a flash..

Good question Sheyne, but what comes to mind is Israel.  Despite quite a few incidents monthly, they seemed determined to stay put and make it work.

Offline littledarlin

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Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #81 on: May 05, 2006, 01:52:20 am »
Doesn't bother me.  What bothers me is a bunch of people moving in that have right-wing religious beliefs that translateinto voting power.

That should bother you, too.  It bothers me now with Dubya and company and their religious views in power.

religious fundamentalists bother me, yes.  but we also have freedom of religion here (well, kind of).  just because i disagree with someones point of view does not mean i feel they should have any less of a right to express it than i do.  and look at US!  look at america!  we have sat by for 6 years pretending to make progress, when really we've just been sitting back while a fundamentalist administration lied, cheated, and stole the country away from us.  they stole 2 elections!  clinton got a blow job and he's gone!  but bush has KILLED in our name and there he sits. 

it's so much easier for us because we can sit and discuss this all day and night from the safety of our homes, and i will not pretend for a second to know what it's really like for anyone else who is not me, but no one should be denied a chance to live their lives comfortably and happily. 

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Frankly, we ALL would, littledarlin.. People living in a reasonably economically stable society forget how tough things are in some parts of the world. It just kills me that people get to sitting in their little ivory towers and say "oh poor Africa, poor south america etc" and then get uneasy that these people for wanting to seek a better life in our countries.  Or worse, that they are starting to make sweeping generalisations about what they will do once they're here.  As though the actions of one person of a particular cultural group earns us the right to slap the label on all of them?

Come on, fair go.  To all those who think immigration isn't an idea they'd entertain, imagine the lengths you'd go to in order to protect your family and loved ones should terrorist attacks like 9/11 be happening once a month in your country?  If i knew there was a safer place where i could start all over again, I'd be there in a flash..

sheyne, i think you have summed up all 4 pages of this thread in that comment.

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It sounds like this topic is getting pretty heated....

Let's try and remember that we're all here to love and support one another.

yes, daniel.  you're right.  i can still feel the love.

it's past my bed time.  gotta go.  night!

We can hug on November, caress and nice oak.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2006, 01:57:47 am »
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but no one should be denied a chance to live their lives comfortably and happily.

This about sums it up Little.

This is a wonderful sentiment, but how realistic?  Even our Founding Fathers knew this.  We had the right to the PURSUIT of happiness.  There were no guarantees we were going to get it.  We might fall short, might fall into poverty and despair.  Nowhere in our government documents is there any guarantee, certainly not for the govt to pick up the tab to ensure that it happens.

Not even for its own citizens.

Why should it be any different for anyone else around the world? 

rtprod

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Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2006, 02:03:00 am »
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Let's try and remember that we're all here to love and support one another.

Well, many of these issues are personal for many people.  And we take them on that level. 

rt

Offline JennyC

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Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2006, 03:03:54 am »
secondly, the uae is a major human rights violator with laws that are sexist, racist and all around discriminatory.  they also have serious issues with human trafficking, especially children as sex slaves.  it's changing though, things have got better, but the timing just doesn't seem right. 

Sorry Andrew, we just have to disagree on this.   I don’t think because UAE has problems with human rights, it then justifies its company to be unfairly treated when it comes to doing business with US.  It’s not like US does not have any human rights issues (gay rights being one of them).  One issue I have (and probably many others have too) is US tends to impose its own value system, standard and ways of doing things onto other counties.  I am not saying that everything US imposes is not correct, but a lot of times, it does so without acknowledge or give consideration to other countries history, culture, stage of the economic progress, etc.  It makes the US looks arrogant, particularly so if US can not hold itself to that standard.

This also reminded me what happened after Palestinian election when Hamas won the election.   Like it or not, Palestinian people chose Hamas to lead their country.  I totally disagree on Bush administration’s effort to alienate Palestine from other counties aide.  It’s the best opportunities they had to establish some working relationship with Hamas, to have some impact on shaping the Middle East peace talk.  They chose to stand on their ideology, which is unfortunate.  I liked what ex-president Jimmy Carter said in Larry King Live (I think it was Larry King Live) “(US should) give Hamas a chance”. 
« Last Edit: May 05, 2006, 03:19:13 am by JennyC »

Offline JennyC

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Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2006, 03:16:25 am »
I think we all got tied up in our own emotions and some very specific points/comments in the discussion.  I got lost in all the argument since I don’t quite sure I understand what everyone’s positions are.  It’s easier to say that I am an immigrant rights advocate, but it’s a different story to have to offer solutions to specific challenges. 

Let’s say that now you get to write the proposal on immigration reform, what are your suggestions?  I have some high level questions to frame our discussion. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to.  I would appreciate if you do :) . This will help us understand the context of your argument.  If I missed anything, by all means add them.

1. What should be done to the existing illegal immigrants/undocumented workers here?
2. How should the cost for processing increasing immigrants and subsequent cost on education, healthcare system be subsidized, from the current budget or where?
3. Can US afford to have an open door policy to welcome everyone who wants to come here to come here and grant them residency and/or citizenship? 
4. If "Yes" to question no. 3, how can US support the volume of the immigration (e.g. can US economy and available resources digest the growing population, keep in mind that this growing population tends to have lower level of education, therefore there are limitation on what kind of jobs they may qualify)
5. If “No” to question no. 3, then what kind of immigration policy should be implemented?
6. What kind of enforcement on immigration should be implemented if any (e.g. border control, employer, etc.)?


Offline opinionista

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Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2006, 05:33:04 am »
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Or perhaps we'll have a whole new class of citizens who are unskilled and uneducated who are now themselves, priced out of the workplace by new illegals and thus become burdens to the society at large.

Heard the latest from a relative.  He was stupid enough to bring some mail order bride home from south of the border.  He got her a visa and paid for her to come up.  Several months of living together (chastely apparently), they made plans to get married.

We all bought outfits for this shindig.  Then right before the wedding, girl says she wants to borrow his car to pick up a friend at the airport.  Since she can hardly dirve, he says he'll go with her.  She doesn't want him to go.  He asks why her fiance shouldn't meet her friends.

Tearfully she admits the friend is her boyfriend, but she's very grateful to him for bringing her to this country.

He asks for his money back.  She doesn't have it, of course.

He has her visa revoked, reports her to Immigration, packs her up and buys her a ticket home.

Unfortunately, he couldn't afford a non-stop flight to her home country.  Do you know where I'm going with this?  She gets on the plane, but when it lands in another U.S. city to make the connecting flight, she gets off, gets the final part of the flight refunded to her and disappears.

A few months later, she calls from where she is living with her boyfriend to mock my in-law.  Laughing and making fun of him.

Oh, no, not the end of the story.

She shows up a year later on his doorstep, destitute begging for forgiveness.

Where is her boyfriend?  In jail, doing 7-10 on a drug charge.

She's 8.5 months pregnant.

We told him to call Immigration and ship her home quick before she had the baby here and then could stay since her child would be a citizen.

Doofus didn't act in time and she had the baby here.

Welcome to our new illiegal immigrant citizen and her baby.

The father a convicted criminal, the mother uneducated, no visa, no green card, doesn't speak the language, no money, no job skiills.

Can you say, welfare mother?  Because that is what she is, among such things as liar, thief and conwoman.

You can say I'm naive rtprod - and you  know I've got nothing but love fer ye   - but I think I'm the realistic one

I actually feel sorry for her. Think about it, if she agreed to marry a man she met via postal service, she must have been in a desperate situation. And her boyfriend was probably a poor boy who had no choice but to become a drug mule. People aren't always downright evil.

Anyway, I'm hispanic myself and I have had my share of bad experiences with immigrants. Some think because you're hispanic too, you're going to lend them a hand and do illegal stuff for them. My mother once hired a woman from the Dominican Republic to help my grandfather who was very ill and needed help around the house. My grandma had already died. Well, that woman wanted me to marry some cousin of her who was at the Dominican Republic. After I refused, she began this harrassing campaing in order to convince me. She made my life impossible for about two months, and even tried to make things go wrong between my then boyfriend and me. My mother had to fire her because of this.

After getting rid of her my mother hired another woman, also from the Dominican Republic, who stole some of my grandma jewelry and stuff from the kitchen. We reported her to the police, but she found out somehow, and dissappeared without a trace. The next person my mom hired, who was also dominican (they're the only ones who do this kind of work in Puerto Rico), was a very good girl, wonderful, honest, respectful and we kept her until my grandfather died, and then recommended her to someone who also needed help with a sick parent. My mother hires her sometimes when she needs an extra hand around the house. We aren't rich, but my mother has a demanding job and sometimes needs help. (My sister and I are in Europe). None of those women are illegal, they have permit to be in the country but they got into Puerto Rico illegaly.

So my point is, there are good and bad people among illegal immigrants, as there are among american people. A lot of them come from poor dysfunctional families, and don't know any better. But the great majority are honest people who come to this country to work. They're not criminals and do not deserve to be in jail. There are other ways to deal with this situation without violating human rights. Besides, putting all these people behind the bars is not cost effective. The money to keep them in prisons is going to come from tax payers, and that's not fair. That money shoud go to public health services, for instance, so people don't have to spend hard earned money buying insurances that in the end will not cover all of their medical needs.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2006, 08:58:01 am by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline sparkle_motion

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Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2006, 09:41:29 am »
The view that mexicans and south americans should stay in their country and fight it out for gov't change at the risk of their lives and the lives of their families is almost comical! If any of us comfortable americans were faced with the same prospect, we'd run! Why should we expect something of someone else that we wouldn't even do ourselves?

And the theory of "they're taking our jobs!" reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend. She said the same exact thing. I laughed heartily and said YOU HAVE A JOB, ARE YOU RETARDED?
...then you ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for needing somethin' I don't hardly never get.

rtprod

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Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #88 on: May 05, 2006, 11:38:42 am »
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The view that mexicans and south americans should stay in their country and fight it out for gov't change at the risk of their lives and the lives of their families is almost comical! If any of us comfortable americans were faced with the same prospect, we'd run! Why should we expect something of someone else that we wouldn't even do ourselves?

And the theory of "they're taking our jobs!" reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend. She said the same exact thing. I laughed heartily and said YOU HAVE A JOB, ARE YOU RETARDED?

Well, at least we got a laugh out of that last line.  I too think this concept of staying to fight for a revolution when your economy stinks and your government is rife with corruption and you don't have food on the table is laughable. 

But then I was "lucky" enough to be born a white male in America (gay, yeah, but I can "pass" if need be), so what would I know about it? 

rt

« Last Edit: May 05, 2006, 11:40:44 am by rtprod »

Offline opinionista

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Re: Stay Home.
« Reply #89 on: May 05, 2006, 11:45:24 am »
The view that mexicans and south americans should stay in their country and fight it out for gov't change at the risk of their lives and the lives of their families is almost comical! If any of us comfortable americans were faced with the same prospect, we'd run! Why should we expect something of someone else that we wouldn't even do ourselves?

And the theory of "they're taking our jobs!" reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend. She said the same exact thing. I laughed heartily and said YOU HAVE A JOB, ARE YOU RETARDED?

Well,  Bolivia voted for a president that's actually trying to make things work and take them out of poverty. Is a matter of who you vote for. I know that's not option for everybody but people do fight to make things better. Americans are among them. Why do you think there's no draft anymore for example. How about blacks civil rights? Women's right? They didn't fall from heaven, people fought for them and hard. Some even lost their lives in the process. Things could be better than they're now, but they're have certainly improved in the past 50 years.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.