Jack's Sad Life
by - vince55 (Fri Mar 17 2006 18:51:44 ) After seeing the movie for the 7th time, I realized that Jack never received the love he needed throughout his entire life. His father disliked him, his father-in-law hated him and Ennis was not there for him. He didn't even get the chance to share his life with the rancher. He was the sadest character of them all!
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - kthstewart (Fri Mar 17 2006 21:03:57 ) I agree vince55 there is no doubt in my mind that Jack Twist is the most tragic figure in Brokeback Mountain. As you have rightly pointed out his own father detested him. His father-in-law held him in contempt and competed with him for his son's affections, Lureen was more concerned with business than Jack. The worst thing of all his life long love, Ennis del Mar would not give him the satisfaction of allowing the two of them to share a life together. He met a violent death. Even after his death Jack was still divided as his parents got half of his ashes and Lureen got the other half.
The problem was that Jack seemed to love life which his father didn't, Ennis didn't, his father-in-law didn't. Jack was far too good of person to meet this kind of fate. Hopefully there will be some kind of redemption for him in life after death where he can finally be happy. One can only hope as I loved the Jack character in the movie and I know he deserved a better fate than he got in this life.
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - littleguitar39 (Fri Mar 17 2006 21:09:32 ) I couldn't agree more about Jack being the most tragic figure. There's something he says in the story that really drives that home for me...
"F*uck-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way"
There is no love apart from the deeds of love. -Sartre
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - dcij47a (Fri Mar 17 2006 21:25:21 ) "F*uck-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way"
Can someone please explain to me what does the first part of this sentence mean? Does it mean "I have worked so hard, but...."
Jack Twist: Tell you what. The truth is... sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - littleguitar39 (Fri Mar 17 2006 21:32:04 ) It means nothing has turned out that way I wanted it to, or that he made plans for his life that never happened, dreams that never came true.
In this scene in the book, he is talking about how he never wanted a kid, but had one anyway. but when he says that line we take it to mean, he wanted to be with ennis, not lureen, but that never happened.
There is no love apart from the deeds of love. -Sartre
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - vince55 (Sun Mar 19 2006 16:40:17 ) When I think of Jack's life, it deeply sadens me. He was such a good soul with so much love to give. He never deserved the treatment he received from the men in his life. He had to resort to a Mexican hustler to make up for his rejections. This movie and his character touched me very much since my father was an alcoholic and was never there for me emotionally. Watching Jack's longing for the love of a man reminded me and many others of how it feels to be rejected by someone. To bad he didn't hear "Jack I swear" before he died.
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - littleguitar39 (Sun Mar 19 2006 16:42:50 ) vince you should check out the short story if you haven't already, it goes a bit further into jack's relationship with his father, very very sad.
There is no love apart from the deeds of love. -Sartre
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - vince55 (Sun Mar 19 2006 16:47:43 ) Thanks, I guess I assumed by the way they both spoke of each other in the film, that they had a really bad relationship. There is something in this film that everyone can relate to. It's an amazing work of ART! and so HAUNTING!
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - b_hynds (Sun Mar 19 2006 17:20:43 ) Jack is one of the most tragic characters that I have ever come across. When he is young he is so full of hope, all he wants is to be with the person he loves most in the world. As he ages and we see the dreamer in Jack die, a huge part of what makes him Jack, I can harldy hold the tears back.
I feel so much for him, all those years living with a cold unavailable woman and working for a father in law that thinks he is a pissant. I think in the end he understood Ennis better than anyone and knew that Ennis loved him very much, however, in the end maybe Jack realized that that just wasn't enough.
"There ain't never enough time, never enough..."
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - wbg434 (Sun Mar 19 2006 19:10:49 ) I couldn't agree more and it's because of the fact Jack can't even get the type of burial he wants that both saddens and infuriates me. In the end, it's not Ennis holding the shirts that makes me have an ache the size of Texas but the fact that if only Ennis had given Jack what he needed while he was alive the man could have known some joy. Jack as portrayed by Jake always has been and always will be what draws me into the story that is Brokeback Mountain. To me, Jack is the heart of the story.
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - kthstewart (Sun Mar 19 2006 21:43:42 ) I agree with your take on Jack's life. It breaks my heart to see a young man with ambitions in life and some hopes of love to see it all dashed as he grows older. His father tells Ennis "Jack never finished anything that he started." He also tells Ennis "Jack always did think he was better than everybody else." It is easy to see the disdain and the dislike that his father has for Jack in life and death.
Lureen's father treats Jack like he is the family pet dog instead of a real person. L.B. Newsome makes it hard for Jack to be a close father to his son. Ennis will not live with him after his divorce from Alma. Jack's tragic life to me is the saddest part of many sad things in Brokeback Mountain.
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - strawbs04 (Sun Mar 19 2006 21:51:48 ) I think that Ennis's life was just as tragic. Yes, Jack's life was not fair at all, and neither was Ennis's. This movie was just so sad. I actually think that Ennis was a homophobic gay man, but that Jack was a bisexual man, and that had Ennis was the only one that gave Jack any real happiness. This was the reason that Jack "missed" Ennis so much he could hardly stand it. Not that he was essentially a gay man, and that's why he went to Mexico, or was with Randall, I think that it was a way to specifically make up for Ennis and not just quenching his homosexual side. The scene that convinces me of this is the flashback scene where Ennis is standing behind Jack talking softly.
Hate is the virus of the world. It's the same in ever way, especially in the contagious way. This was the best but also saddest story ever told. I saw it for the 4th time just now and cried just as hard as I did the first time. This is the best movie ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - terryhall2 (Mon Mar 20 2006 00:00:47 ) I too think it is Jack that draws me back again and again to the story. I have seen many good people, selfless, loving people die young. Maybe we should see death as a good thing in that I see these people as angels who come to help change the lives of those they touch...absorbing the suffering themselves but also acting as a catalyst for others. Then they go, for their intention (or work) is done. I'm convinced Jack came into Ennis' life to offer a love that would awaken somehow Ennis' real self.
Also, someone who has much real personal tradegy tends to be a dreamer and optimist too. They don't whine, they are just accepting-just like Jack.
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - vince55 (Mon Mar 20 2006 10:09:13 ) I'm so glad I started this post. All of your posts have brought me to tears. And as one of you said. It's the best movie ever! It gets into your heart and soul. Thank you to all who have a heart!
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - davita79 (Mon Mar 20 2006 10:22:33 ) My heart broke while watching this movie because of Jack Twist. The moment in the movie that I really lost it, was when Jack's father is saying to Ennis that bringing him up to the ranch was just another one of Jack's ideas that never came to pass. That really summed up the whole character of Jack Twist from me. He wanted nothing more than to be with Ennis, but no matter how much he wanted it, his dream would never be realized. It was so heart breaking.
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - vince55 (Mon Mar 20 2006 10:26:41 ) His whole life, Jack never got the love he wanted and deserved. Everyone in his life made him feel inadequate. Such a sad existance for someone as loving as Jack.
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - adamx013 (Mon Mar 20 2006 11:00:54 ) Just to be a little upbeat, I still think even at the end that Jack knew that Ennis loved him and tried to be good to him, but just was not at that place yet to be able to really be there for him. It would have pained me a lot more had Ennis been really harsh to Jack or manipulative, but he was not - he usually was kind to him and just sometimes teasingly argumentative, but that was it. So, maybe Jack could think of that in his last moments of life...that he had gotten more love and kindness out of Ennis than anyone else ever had.
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - cookieyami (Mon Mar 20 2006 17:45:13 ) UPDATED Mon Mar 20 2006 17:45:43
Hi adamx013,
I don't know if Ennise did love Jake. May be he did. However, I feel very sad whenever I think of that Jake "KNOWS" Ennise would not embrace him face to face becuase Ennise "did not want to see nore feel that it was Jake he held". It is unbelivable. I couldn't image why and how Jake can stand this torture: your true love wan't even hug you face to face. What a rejection is! what kind of love kept Jake continuing this relationship? May be in young Jake's heart, he thinks Ennise would change, then 20 years passed, nothing changed, and his dream and heart died. I know Ennise is a homophobic which is a two fold sword, it not only destroy his life but also tortured his only love in such a cruel way. Personally, I do think Ennise kills Jake, too! (As Jack said, Jake die when he learns that he and Ennnise would never be together!) And I just cannot understand Ennise, how can he love Jake so much and yet reject Jake so much.
Ennis's Life Just As Tragic
by - two_bloody_shirts (Mon Mar 20 2006 17:53:08 ) Yes, I think Ennis's life was just as tragic. He lost his parents, his brother and sister raised him, but I don't think they were all that close. He couldn't fully love Alma because he loved Jack.
One bright thing for Ennis is his daughters, but that is taken away from him by the divorce. At least Alma still visits him.
Jack died and Ennis has to live the rest of his life without him. It would be tough to live with the fact that he knows he loved Jack and did nothing about making a life together with him.
-----
||Grace||
Love. You have a problem with it?
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - Haibara (Tue Mar 21 2006 00:27:04 ) I agree. Jack is by far the most tragic character in BBM. He's an idealistic dreamer, and because of his high expectation, he also suffers the most disappointment in life. It is somewhat comforting to remember that Jack was deeply loved by his mother. She was probably the only person who loved him unconditionally (i know Ennis loves him too, but his love is definitely restrained). In the last scene together, Ennis declared that because of Jack, he has nothing in life. That statement is actually more pertinent to Jack's life. At the very least, Ennis has the unconditional love and adoration from Jenny (maybe his other daughter as well). Jack was counting on Ennis' love, even though deep down he probably always knew Ennis was never going to come around.
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - b_hynds (Tue Mar 21 2006 15:04:43 ) My heart broke while watching this movie becuase of Jack Twist. The moment in the movie that I really lost it, was when Jack's father is saying to Ennis that bringing him up to the ranch was just another one of Jack's ideas that never came to pass. That really summed up the whole character of Jack Twist from me. He wanted nothing more than to be with Ennis, but no matter how much he wanted it, his dream would never be realized. It was so heart breaking.
"There ain't never enough time, never enough..."
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - URBANCOW2001 (Tue Mar 21 2006 15:12:24 ) UPDATED Tue Mar 21 2006 15:23:11
Jack left the earth without getting the love that he was craving; he gave so much and got none in return. I felt really bad for him from the begining.
"If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it."
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - Front-Ranger (Tue Mar 21 2006 15:30:47 ) If you think of Jack as the spirit of love there is some redemption in the fact that love lives on in the form of Alma Jr. And Ennis seems to have found some sort of peace, ceasing the endless striving to be something he's not, even to the point of living a semi-monastic life: "If you don't got nothing, you don't need nothing." He is at peace with being nothing, nowhere, which is a very zen concept. He can find joy in the fact that Alma, without striving, without suffering, can be loved, first by Troy, then by Kurt. And Jack, what did he have? He had Brokeback Mountain, which is something that few people experience in their life. The tragedy is that he tried to keep it or recreate it after it was gone which is as easy as slipping into a rat hole with a coyote on your tail. In other words, you can't go back to Brokeback Mountain ever again.
Front-Ranger
"There ain't no reins on this one."
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - robins-1 (Tue Mar 21 2006 18:09:50 ) I sometimes wonder if the desolate sadness of this movie would have been less if Ennis was the one who had died. I love both characters so much, but it's a great tragedy to see Jack change from happy and hopeful to being so bitter, and, then to lose his life.
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - latjoremekeed 6 days ago (Wed Mar 22 2006 12:12:27 ) Both their lives were tragic. I happen to feel more sorry for Ennis, because he loses the love of his life and then has to live with the guilt of not having done anything about it. It's Ennis' tragic flaw (being afraid to accept who he is) that causes everyone else's heartbreak, which makes me, personally, more sad.
But a great thing about this movie is that different people have such different reactions to it.
By the way, I think people should at least feel reassured that both Ennis and Jack knew the other one loved him. What was frustrating is that Ennis didn't fully appreciate that while he had it.
Re: Jack's Sad Life - don't forget Jack's mother
by - gpm497 6 days ago (Wed Mar 22 2006 12:23:02 ) Let's not forget that Jack's mother did love him. Just look at her eyes, they radiate love for Ennis as they must have for her son Jack.
Ennis didn't even have the chance to learn how it is to be loved until he met Jack.
Even at the beginning of the movie Jack is able to show care and tenderness towards Ennis - he wouldn't be able to act this way if he was never loved by anyone. He obviously did have his mother's love as he was growing up.
His mother, wife and son
by - lauragigs 5 days ago (Thu Mar 23 2006 21:22:47 ) UPDATED Thu Mar 23 2006 21:27:43
"Jack is able to show care and tenderness towards Ennis . . . he obviously did have his mother's love as he was growing up."
Yes. One of my all-time favorite moments: the 2nd tent scene, where Jack takes Ennis in his arms and rocks him back and forth for a moment, like a little baby. (Almost making up for all Ennis' years as an orphan.)
People are hard on Lureen, but she at least cared for Jack (remember her pleasure when he tells her father off, and displeasure when he's denigrated by men at the business). He and Lureen got on well at least initially. She had her pick of the men in the community, and she chose Jack. Later she's shown as work-absorbed and remote, but is that such a bad reaction when you can't understand your husband's growing dissatisfaction and distance?
Jack was also an attentive dad (although the film shows his son sparingly). I'm sure he enjoyed the love of his son, too.
Great thread, Vince!
Re: His mother, wife and son
by - SuperBatMan 5 days ago (Thu Mar 23 2006 21:29:10 ) This board never seems to have a dull moment. I have about 100 things to do, YET I feel I have to come on here to speak out about the film!.
Anywho...yeah I felt Jack had it the worst in that whatever he wanted, it never came his way. Ennis would never commit to him, which I felt was the worst for Jack. So haunting its not even funny.
A tragic love story it is!.
It is one of the saddest things I've seen on the character. I think Ennis was just in his own world, he loved Jack and all.....but never seemed to commit.
Re: His mother, wife and son
by - Front-Ranger 3 days ago (Sat Mar 25 2006 18:43:00 ) But at least Jack knew what love was. Many people, including Ennis until it was too late, never did.
Front-Ranger
"There ain't no reins on this one."
Re: His mother, wife and son
by - vince55 3 days ago (Sat Mar 25 2006 18:47:37 ) Jack knew how to feel it, but never really was on the receiving end. Ennis was loved by his wife,kids and even his girlfriend and even a man's love.
Re: His mother, wife and son
by - amandazehnder 3 days ago (Sat Mar 25 2006 20:15:46 ) Oh, I think Jack received as much love as Ennis could give (in light of all of Ennis's fears and flaws, he built his life around Jack in many ways). There are lots of threads discussing how Ennis demonstrates love, often in unconventional or coded ways. I think Jack knew Ennis loved him. Of course, it should and could have been better (in terms of living together, etc.), but in many ways he was lucky for having such a passionate love with Ennis for 20 years. As someone said, many people don't have that kind of exciting, deep love in their life ever. They were soul mates and knew it. Jack knew that neither of them would be capable of "quitting" one another.
I think we can also take comfort knowing that Ennis fully and completely understood all the "sad" aspects of Jack's life. He'll carry his magical memories of his love of Jack for the rest of his life, but a major part of his tragedy is that he also will live with an amazing amount of regret. Sometimes I think when he says "I swear..." he means that he would do things very differently if he could go back and have a second chance to live out his relationship with Jack. He's simultaneously (in my opinion) swearing his love for Jack and coming out to himself a little bit in that moment. I think Jack would just be gleeful to know how much Ennis would be carrying him in his heart for the rest of his life. Jack also would be thrilled to see how much Ennis has learned by the end of the film.
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - stitchbuffymoulinfan 3 days ago (Sat Mar 25 2006 20:36:56 ) Jack's life is really tragic, as is Ennis' life. One of the best qualities Jack has is how he, growing up with such a cold-hearted and cruel father, is chewed up by the world and still remains a selfless, caring, and loving dreamer.
The love is definitely there. The passion between them is mutual and undeniably powerful. I think Jack might have had his doubts on whether or not Ennis really loved him but I think he knew that he loved Ennis. Ennis also loved Jack and expressed his love for him in subtle ways.
It's so sad to see how something Jack gets such immense joy out of can cause him so much pain.
God, this movie is devastating.
www.jlodown.com www.petitionspot.com/petitions/jlodownRe: His mother, wife and son
by - kthstewart 3 days ago (Sat Mar 25 2006 21:27:55 ) I think Jack knew that Ennis loved him. I just wish he would have been willing to live with Jack so they could have run the cow and calf operation that was so important to Jack.
Actually they both had tragic boyhoods. Jack's father seemed to have a deep dislike of his own son. Ennis' father scared Ennis and his brother half to death before he was killed in a car wreck as was Ennis' mom and Ennis was raised by his sister and brother who were probably not that much older than Ennis.
I think Jack was not very happy in his marriage with Lureen. He told Ennis that he could just as easily conduct his marriage over the telephone. I don't have a clue what Lureen knew or didn't know about Jack's sexuality but as their marriage moved forward over years I don't think Lureen gave her marriage a second thought. So maybe she didn't suspect anything. Jack's son was spoiled by his father-in-law L.B.Newsome who insisted that Bobby was just like him. Jack might have had more contact with his son had he not had to compete with L.B. Newsome so much for Bobby's affections. I don't know what happened with Bobby but my guess is that by the time he was 14 or 15 Jack and Lureen had put him in a boarding school perhaps back east somewhere.
Jack's mother loved Jack unconditionally and I think considering what Jack had to put up with from his dad at home he was extremely lucky to have a mom like Mrs. Twist.
Re: Jack's Not So Sad Life
by - andrewscotth 3 days ago (Sun Mar 26 2006 06:13:25 ) Jack had a wonderful mother who loved him deeply and that would have been a wonderful thing for him to have (whatever his father was like - and it is clear that his father was jealous of Jack probably for that very reason)
Jack was loved by Lureen too and he loved her as well - the hand on her shoulder at the Thanksgiving row and his kiss when he leaves her in the office show that to me - OK she wasn't Ennis but I think he was probably lucky to have her and she did care about him and he would have known that. (Note Ennis never even bothered to kiss Alma when he left which always made me feel less sympathy for him). I'm sure Jack and Lureen had many many happy times together which we just didn't see.
I think Jack was probably loved by his son too.
Jack was loved very much and we need to remember that when we get too sad. A lot of people have much less love in their lives than him. And hey we all loved him too!
Re: Jack's Not So Sad Life
by - amandazehnder 2 days ago (Sun Mar 26 2006 11:41:06 ) UPDATED Tue Mar 28 2006 17:55:39
-"Jack's mother loved Jack unconditionally and I think considering what Jack had to put up with from his dad at home he was extremely lucky to have a mom like Mrs. Twist."
In response to this... Yes, Jack's Mother emerges as one of the most remarkable characters in the film. What a brave and caring woman.
Her kindness to Ennis is just overwhelming in the Lightning Flat scene. Here's another aspect of the tragedy... If Ennis had moved to Lightning Flat with Jack like he dreamed, then Ennis (orphan that he was) would have had a wonderful mother-figure in his life. I think it was truly important for Ennis to realize that there are people (including someone as important as Jack's mother) who would honor and respect their love for one another. He needed to learn that he didn't need to be quite so afraid of people finding out.
Re: Jack's Not So Sad Life
by - lauragigs 2 days ago (Sun Mar 26 2006 12:53:07 ) "Jack had a wonderful mother who loved him deeply . . . it is clear that his father was jealous of Jack probably for that very reason."
"If Ennis had moved to Lightning Flat with Jack, then Ennis (orphan that he was) would have had a wonderful mother-figure in his life."
Great points! I never thought of that . . .
Re: Jack's Not So Sad Life
by - vince55 2 days ago (Sun Mar 26 2006 19:20:44 ) An unforgetable story!
Re: Jack's Not So Sad Life
by - vladwebb 1 day ago (Tue Mar 28 2006 01:23:45 ) The flash of Jacks death near the end. Was that just what was going through Ennis mind because of what his dad had shown him as a little boy. Or was that what really happened and the tire blowingup was just the local coverstory to save Jacks family from the truth?? I have not read the book.
Re: Jack's Not So Sad Life
by - Phoebe_BBM 1 day ago (Tue Mar 28 2006 01:44:05 ) The tire blowing up was a cover-up, allthough i do think his family knew the truth.
Re: Jack's Not So Sad Life
by - erichmercado 1 day ago (Tue Mar 28 2006 07:22:15 ) In my opinion, it depends on the viewer or reader. For me it is just an interpretation of what really happened to Jack. It can be possible that he met an accident or someone really did kill him.
Either way, its disheartening.
Re: Jack's Not So Sad Life (spoiler)
by - bjblakeslee 1 day ago (Tue Mar 28 2006 07:43:47 ) The flash of Jacks death near the end. Was that just what was going through Ennis mind because of what his dad had shown him as a little boy. Or was that what really happened and the tire blowingup was just the local coverstory to save Jacks family from the truth?? I have not read the book.
The following is the passage from the book, but it won't answer your question:
Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED. He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before when Alma divorced him and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing. This would be all right, Jack would answer, had to answer. But he did not. It was Lureen and she said who? who is this? and when he told her again she said in a level voice yes, Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face, broke his nose and jaw and knocked him unconscious on his back. By the time someone came along he had drowned in his own blood.
No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron.
"Jack used to mention you," she said. "You're the fishing buddy or the hunting buddy, I know that. Would have let you know," she said, "but I wasn't sure about your name and address. Jack kept most a his friends' addresses in his head. It was a terrible thing. He was only thirty-nine years old."
The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him. He didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident, blood choking down Jack's throat and nobody to turn him over. Under the wind drone he heard steel slamming off bone, the hollow chatter of a settling tire rim.
We know from this that this is what Ennis believes, but his tragedy is that he can never know the truth. He is an outsider to both of Jack's families. That he imagines it to be a tire iron and not some other weapon is significant because a tire iron figures prominently in his childhood flashback.
Shoot as fast as lightnin' but it loads a mite slow...
Re: Jack's Sad Life
by - svelte41 4 hours ago (Wed Mar 29 2006 04:33:08 ) Yes, the movie is a real tragedy in the Shakespearean tradition. However, when you weigh up whether how tragic a person's life is, we have to look at more than the big things. He had a number of happy moments. He had a great time with Ennis at first and they had some good times together afterwards before the pressure got to them. He even had a good time with Lureen for a while. As others have said, he had a loving mother too. Yes, he had a highly problematical life, but not all bad.
Poor old Ennis on the other hand, lacking Jack's bubbly nature, had a few good times with Jack and that's about it, although there appears a glimmer of hope for him with his daughter's wedding. Sometimes we have to settle for second best in this life (which is always than 3rd best, 4th best etc). We may not get what we want but it helps if we take the good things that pop up in our lives for what they are, and it looked like Ennis was on the road to doing just that.
Then look at Alma's life - what a shocker! How many good times did the poor woman have given Ennis' inability to deal with the situation? Lureeen, at least, seemed capable of losing herself in her work and Jack looked to be more capable of compartmentalising his life than Ennis, meaning his behaviour towards her was less hurtful than Ennis', (although maybe that was because she was less dependent).
In the end, they were all good people with big problems. And where were the people (homophobes) who caused the problems? No doubt sitting out there in the sun, drinking their beer and having far easier lives, never having to worry about cleaning up the messes they had made of Ennis, Alma, Jack or Lureen's lives.
That's what gives the movie so much power. That basic dynamic of bigots and their victims (including "collateral damage" like Alma and Lureen) is still being played out every day ...
