A new take on 'you're good enough'
by BannerHill (Thu Aug 31 2006 07:32:35 ) UPDATED Thu Aug 31 2006 07:36:52
Last night I saw the film with a new perspective. I saw the film thinking that Alma Jr knew in general that her dad was 'different'. It added a whole new twist to the remarkable scene in the bar and the dialogue between the two women. The thought that Alma was aware of the futility of the situation makes the scene that much more poigniant
I am sure people have speculated here about whether Alma Jr knew or not, but it sure adds a deeper meaning to the scene.
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by littlewing1957 (Thu Aug 31 2006 08:56:13 ) <<The thought that Alma was aware of the futility of the situation makes the scene that much more poigniant>>
You mean, Alma Jr. knew or suspected Ennis was gay and that he would never remarry? Or that he may marry, but would not be a suitable husband?
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by latjoreme (Thu Aug 31 2006 09:25:28 ) I think she knew her dad was "different" and unlikely to remarry, but probably didn't know exactly why.
I find her reaction in the last scene really interesting and touching. Ennis asks if Kurt loves her, then gazes out the window thinking of Jack and seeming on the verge of tears. Alma Jr. gives him a quick penetrating look that turns into a gentle warm smile. At this moment, I think, she's understanding something about her father. Maybe not exactly, "Oh, Dad must be gay and recently lost the man he loved." But that he's had some kind of heartbreaking experience with love that probably didn't involve Cassie (or even Alma Sr.).
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by malina-5 (Thu Aug 31 2006 10:17:31 ) I think she knew.
When this question comes up I always think of the divorce rejection scene. Those two quiet little girls were sitting in the truck WITH THE WINDOWS OPEN very, very close - about six feet away - from Jack and Ennis. I know they looked totally clueless. But I think they were listening and absorbing, and storing information away to process later. That's what kids do. And Alma Jr. would've been about 12 by then. She knew something was up between Ennis and his buddy Jack.
And then there's the fact that mothers (especially during stressful times) tend to confide in their daughters. Particularly older daughters. Maybe they shouldn't, but they do. I'm an oldest daughter, and my mother certainly 'used' me as her confidant. And I have a teenage daughter ... and believe me, at some point, the chances are pretty high that Alma Sr. would have let something slip. And if she did, it would probably be to Alma Jr. Maybe not straight-out: your dad's gay. But some snarky mention of Jack, something, almost for sure.
So, one way and another, I'm almost sure Alma Jr. knew. And that gives more meaning to her actions. She wanted to live with Ennis when she was 17 - maybe, in part, to show solidarity with him, to show that she accepted him even if everyone else didn't. And then asking him to the wedding. I think the implication was that he'd been estranged from the family for a while. She is bringing him back in. Both those times, it looks like she's asking a favor for herself, but it's for Ennis, as well. She's making overtures, offering him reconection with the family. She knows and she's saying it doesn't matter. I think.
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by BannerHill (Thu Aug 31 2006 10:25:08 ) <<You mean, Alma Jr. knew or suspected Ennis was gay and that he would never remarry? Or that he may marry, but would not be a suitable husband?>>
Hmmm, I guess both, littlewing. Alma Jr may or may not have known specificly that her dad was gay, but I think she did know that he was not capable of bonding with a women, even if he married. I think she knew the whole situation was futile.
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by daphne7661 (Thu Aug 31 2006 10:49:02 ) I think Alma Jr. knew - well, knew as well as a young girl could know.
None of the scenes which leads me to this conclusion happen in sequence and no two of them are strung close enough together, BUT, if you list each scene in which it might be plausible for Alma Jr. to get the sense that her father is ..."different"... and take into account the circumstances which would lead her to understand, then, at least for me, it seems obvious.
**Alma Jr. could possibly remember her mother crying as Daddy leaves to go on his first "fishin' trip".
**Following the reunion, both girls certainly witness the change and tension and fighting infused into Ennis & Alma's marriage. Ennis is clearly different now that Jack is back in his life. Alma is clearly different having witnessed what she witnessed.
**Why is Daddy always going on vacation with his fishin' buddy, but mom and we stay at home (probably never going on a family vacation)?
**Who is this guy "Jack" who shows up out of nowhere when Dad has us for the weekend post-divorce? We've never seen him before? Is he the fishin' buddy? Is he another "buddy"? He doesn't even live in Riverton, does he?
**What would cause Daddy to storm out of the house with Alma Sr. SCREAMING at him to get out of her house on that fateful Thanksgiving? Up to that point, everything seem civilized enough with Ennis joining the new Monroe household for the day.
**By the time Alma meets Cassie, she is around 17 years old. I don't care how naive you are at that tender age, you have a sense of things and what doesn't "feel right". Alma Jr. knows Cassie isn't the right fit for her Daddy. By this point, IMO, Alma Jr. knows her Daddy is different somehow, that he is distracted, that possibly something bigger than she can fully comprehend has affected him and his ability to be with her mom and/or with another woman. If she can think any further than that, thoughts of Jack and who he is to Ennis could enter her mind. I also think that, at this point, even though, as I said, she doesn't fully comprehend it all, she is defending and protecting her Daddy. They are two peas in a pod, after all, I think.
**Finally, in that trailer scene, and again, not assuming Alma Jr. remembers Jack or thinks it might be Jack or something about Jack which has affected her dad, she can see, as can we, that something and someone has very deeply affected this quiet proud man she so sweetly calls "Daddy"...
...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by littlewing1957 (Thu Aug 31 2006 10:58:51 ) <<**By the time Alma meets Cassie, she is around 17 years old. I don't care how naive you are at that tender age, you have a sense of things and what doesn't "feel right". Alma Jr. knows Cassie isn't the right fit for her Daddy. By this point, IMO, Alma Jr. knows her Daddy is different somehow, that he is distracted, that possibly something bigger than she can fully comprehend has affected him and his ability to be with her mom and/or with another woman. If she can think any further than that, thoughts of Jack and who he is to Ennis could enter her mind. I also think that, at this point, even though, as I said, she doesn't fully comprehend it all, she is defending and protecting her Daddy. They are two peas in a pod, after all, I think.>>
Very well said, Daphne! My thoughts exactly!
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by stephen-mellor (Sat Nov 4 2006 20:48:36 ) Daphne wrote: "By this point, IMO, Alma Jr. knows her Daddy is different somehow, that he is distracted, that possibly something bigger than she can fully comprehend has affected him and his ability to be with her mom and/or with another woman."
"Distracted", eh? What a wonderful way to describe it! I think that's a racing certainty. But what, exactly, is distracting our dear Ennis? How would Alma Jr know that?
I think she probably did, but like Alma Sr, she didn't have the vocabulary.
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by daphne7661 (Sat Nov 4 2006 21:20:49 ) Hey Stephen,
Yes, to me, I found Alma Jr. to be very intuitive and protective where her Daddy was concerned.
I feel strongly that Alma Jr. knew Ennis was deeply in love - just not with Alma Sr., not with Cassie, and, if she paid any attention at all to his nonchalance where women were concerned, not with any other female.
Yet, here was this "Jack" fellow buddy of Daddy's, who, try as he might, Ennis couldn't hide his exuberance around - whether in person or in passing or even in a tense preamble to a fishin' trip...
...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by spiceylife (Thu Aug 31 2006 21:46:08 ) Those two quiet little girls were sitting in the truck WITH THE WINDOWS OPEN very, very close - about six feet away - from Jack and Ennis. I know they looked totally clueless. But I think they were listening and absorbing, and storing information away to process later. That's what kids do. And Alma Jr. would've been about 12 by then. She knew something was up between Ennis and his buddy Jack.
I think you're right, malina-5. Jack & Ennis were VERY close to the truck at the divorce rejection scene. Also, heartbreakingly, Ennis again removes Jack's hand from around Ennis' neck. Jack was trying to pull Ennis in closer, maybe for a kiss. Jack didn't seem to know the girls were in Ennis' truck at that stage. I wonder whether Alma Jr. saw Jack's hand, & the way that Ennis grabbed it & took it away from his neck. It's what Ennis does in the reunion scene, after they've shared the kiss. Ennis removes Jack's hands from around his neck.
And I could be wrong here, but did Ennis' truck have a glass window at the back as well? If so, Alma Jr. could easily have seen & heard everything between Ennis & Jack, from the hearty hug, to the "Got your card about the divorce and HERE I AM!", to Jack's hand around Ennis' neck pulling him closer. That's a large number of clues there. And I wonder if Alma Jr. could have heard the entire Thanksgiving argument, complete with, "You didn't go up there to fish! Jack Twist...Jack NASTY!" More clues.
I think Alma, Jr. knew by the time she asks to live with Ennis. IMO, she asks that of Ennis because she feels his loneliness & wants to fix it for him, rather than see her father hook up with Cassie & still be lonely. She tries to be there for him, as obviously Jenny & Alma, Sr aren't any more.
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by BannerHill (Wed Sep 13 2006 23:18:05 ) Hey great thread! Who started it?
Oh!
**blushes modestly**
I guess that would be me.
I like this thread. It got me thinking.
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by dly64 (Thu Aug 31 2006 11:08:12 ) I agree with much of what has been said. I have written in other threads how perceptive children are. In fact, we adults tend to forget how much little ears can pick up. Alma, Jr. was portrayed as being quite insightful and observant. She loved her daddy and she watched him intently. Examples would be on the swing … jr. watched Ennis while Jenny kept swinging and when Jack came up after the divorce … jr. kept her gaze (primarily) on Ennis while Jenny just smiled at Jack.
Both the scene with Cassie and the trailer scene implied that jr. was aware that her father had a secret life. Jr. knew Ennis loved someone …. and it certainly wasn’t Cassie.
Diane
"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by daphne7661 (Thu Aug 31 2006 11:59:32 ) Jr. knew Ennis loved someone …. and it certainly wasn’t Cassie.
YUP!!
...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by ednbarby (Fri Dec 1 2006 10:30:48 ) UPDATED Fri Dec 1 2006 10:32:35
I agree with Malina and others here who've said Alma Jr. knew. I've always been absolutely convinced she knew, so much so that I think she already knew when she took that good, long look at Jack in the post-divorce scene - I think they both did. Or at least suspected. I just found them to be looking at him with more interest and curiosity than kids would normally look at a friend of their father's they're meeting for the first time.
And let me give you all another example of how perceptive children can be. Back in April, I was watching a montage someone had made of the movie online when my 4-year-old son walked in. He was drawn into it, and sat on my lap to watch the rest. At the post-divorce scene (note - there was no dialog in the montage - just the scenes set to the score), when Jack is first shown reacting to what Ennis says and does, then shown pulling away, then shown crying in the truck, my son says, "You know what, Mommy? That man is sad because he can't be part of the other man's family."
This is a four-year-old. Think of Alma Jr. being held by Alma, who's crying as she's watching Ennis and Jack leave for their first 'fishing' trip. I'm thinking she was about four there. I think a kid that age would totally pick up on something being very wrong, as far as her Mom is concerned, with that trip, and then with all the other ones to follow over the years.
To me, it was clear that when she said to Cassie, "You're good enough," what she was thinking was "...for someone who isn't Jack." And when Ennis asks her at the end if this Kurt fella loves her, she knows exactly what he means - she knows he wants to make sure there isn't really someone else Kurt would rather be with and so he's gonna break his little girl's heart like he broke Alma's. It's such a beautiful scene, because he's genuinely concerned, but he's also in a way apologizing. She assuages his concern and accepts his apology in the way she answers, and then he realizes the word they're talking about is what he and Jack had. All at once. In a movie full of rapturous beauty, it's my favorite scene.
~ Barb
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by anml-lvr (Fri Dec 1 2006 10:37:28 ) I completely agree with you ednbarby about how perceptive children are. I often can't believe the things I hear come flying out of 3 and 4 year olds mouths.
Alma Jr. knew.........
Especially when she said her daddy might not be the marrying kind.
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by Clyde-B (Fri Dec 1 2006 10:44:11 ) << "You know what, Mommy? That man is sad because he can't be part of the other man's family." >>
Wow. That is as clearly and as beautifully put as I've ever heard it.
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by toycoon (Fri Dec 1 2006 11:24:36 ) Ednbarby, that was a wonderful story.
I agree with you, the last scenes with Junior and Ennis are among the most magical and illuminating in the entire film. The few things Alma Jr. says to her father signify (to me) she understood her Daddy's dilemma and that she had known something was different about him for a while now.
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by ednbarby (Fri Dec 1 2006 13:07:44 ) Thanks, toycoon. When he said that, I started crying myself, and then he noticed that too and said, "It's OK, Mommy. It's only a movie."
He is *the only one* I'll ever allow to say that unopposed.
~ Barb
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by Dancing_Bear (Fri Dec 1 2006 11:08:44 ) Great thread, still can't make up my mind about the Cassie/Junior interaction but it does strike me how loving Junior is with Ennis and vice versa. They don't even have to finish their sentences but they know what's in each other's heart and they show their love for each other in a very understated but strong undercurrent. Ennis is essentially a very ascetic guy, didn't care about career advancement or material things for their own sake, but he tried to be there for his kids - moved over the laundromat when he would so much rather have been out in the open living on a lonely ranch, kept up all his child support and came to see them when he could, chose them over Jack when Jack drove 14 hours to see him. When Junior says she's getting married, the only question he asks, and he's very serious about it, is "Does he love you?" He doesn't ask how much money the guy has or what are his prospects, or even "I want to meet this guy and see if he's going to be good enough." He takes her at her word and trusts her judgment. Ennis is a loving guy, if repressed, even though he rough-houses and punches people out for upseting him, I can't see him taking after his daddy's narrow-minded ways. Even if society turns against him, at least Ennis has Junior around to show him unconditional love.
Re: A new take on 'you're good enough'
by anml-lvr (Fri Dec 1 2006 11:11:16 ) Excellent points. I believe Ennis is trying to change is life by putting the numbers on his mailbox and attending his daughters wedding.
He is trying which is what Jack would have wanted him to do.
