Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by kevinmcg (Sun Jan 8 2006 19:32:20 )
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UPDATED Sun Jan 8 2006 19:37:16
He may have given up trying to make a life with Ennis, but the love between them is forever.
For anyone out there who's had a true, one-of-a-kind passionate love in their life, you know that the feeling doesn't go away. Think about Jack's now infamous line "I wish I knew how to quit you". Those works simply say that he loves Ennis so much that it hurts him and his life would be a lot easier if he could just let him go, but he can't. Ennis can't say or express it, but he feels the same way about Jack. Not only do we fall in love, but in the those rare, special instances I think there is something that permanently imprints us on another person. To me, it's this power that has made this such a special movie for me. Can't really explain it completely, but there it is.
you bet.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by JLScheib (Sun Jan 8 2006 20:00:56 )
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Actually, I agree, but you put it beautifully. This is what I was getting at by saying the relationship was dying but the love wasn't.
Perhaps this explains why the shirts were still in Jack's room. Clearly he had an opportunity to get rid of them if he wanted to on his final visit to his parents, but he didn't.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by ednbarby (Mon Jan 9 2006 06:41:02 )
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I agree with Kevin on this, too. Like someone else said earlier, I think it's one thing to decide to try to move on, but it's quite another to succeed at it.
I can tell you that my love for my husband is not passionate. It's deeply affectionate and intimate, but passion is not a word I (or he) would use to describe what we have.
I still carry a torch for someone I was with before him, now 20 years ago, for whom my physical need was so intense it was overwhelming. I still smile whenever I hear his name, which is very rare these days (not my smiling - I have a good life - but the hearing of his name), and I'm still very interested to know how his life is going. In a small way, he was like Ennis and I was like Jack. We had a very tumultuous relationship the base conflict of which was that I wanted to be with him always, but he wasn't ready to "settle down" (or at least not with me). I can remember the precise moment I decided to try to move on, too. And when I did and ultimately met my husband, he realized what he had lost and suddenly he had a change of heart. There was a moment when I could have dumped my husband (who I'd only been seeing for about a month) and had him back. I think just about the most difficult thing I ever did in my life was walk away from him that night.
Of course there are vast differences. We were free to love each other openly in this puritanical society some of us still seem to be under the illusion is so progressive - we are straight. The other is that I don't regret succeeding at moving on. He didn't love me like Ennis loved Jack. It was the realization that his love for me was never pure that made it possible for me to finally turn him away.
I understand Jack's deciding to try to move on. But he never would have stopped loving and wanting and needing Ennis, similar to how I've never stopped caring deeply about this man. But I believe that if he had moved on with Randall, had Ennis come to him broken and crying and begging him to give him another chance, he wouldn't have walked away.
Call me a hopeless romantic. And I'm 40.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by jscheib (Mon Jan 9 2006 11:57:24 )
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Oh, my. What a beautiful insight!
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by Ellemeno (Mon Jan 9 2006 12:13:10 )
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Thank you so much for this thread, everyone.
I don't think Ennis would have done much to pursue Jack if Jack had written that "Sorry, can't make it" postcard. Nothing about Ennis shows that he would have had that followthrough to go after what he wants.
This movie is a bigger tragedy than Romeo and Juliet, because it's Ennis's internalized fear that keeps the star-crossed lovers separate.
"One's enough," said Ennis.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by jscheib (Mon Jan 9 2006 12:26:38 )
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<<This movie is a bigger tragedy than Romeo and Juliet, because it's Ennis's internalized fear that keeps the star-crossed lovers separate. >>
Well put! Bravo! Wish I'd said that!
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by Ellemeno (Sun Jan 15 2006 21:06:50 )
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<<This movie is a bigger tragedy than Romeo and Juliet, because it's Ennis's internalized fear that keeps the star-crossed lovers separate. >>
Well put! Bravo! Wish I'd said that!
You can! I've said it more than once, it's yours now too!
The moment after "This Curt fellow, he loves you?"
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by jep831 (Wed Jan 11 2006 11:49:37 )
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I mentioned this in a post several weeks ago but think it still applies. An excellent tag line from a less-than-excellent movie by an excellent director was, "There's the first one. There's the right one. And there's the one you never forget." Jack and Ennis were, at the very least, the third one.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by mlewisusc (Sun Jan 8 2006 22:52:50 )
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Well, I'm 38. It took me several other threads (and a 4th film viewing) to agree that I at least saw determination on Jack's face in that last shot of him.
I guess I believe that Jack probably intended to shoot for that life with someone else, maybe to make Ennis jealous enough to do something, or because he really was ready to move on and "quit" Ennis. Or maybe a little bit of both.
Even so, I think that Jack would still have tried to meet up with Ennis, even after he brought Randall (or whomever) up to the ranch at Lightning Flat. Not that, for either Ennis or Randall, that would have worked long term (or even once).
Those of you who saw in Jack's face a determination to set a totally new course in his life, won't be able to agree with me on this.
Those of you who say, why didn't he get rid of the shirts then, will say that last look was one of frustration and anger but not departure.
And I think, although they are fictional characters and thus this whole board is beside the point, it's uncommonly good fun - "High-class entertainment," to quote my man in tan.
". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by bikerjefft (Mon Jan 9 2006 00:27:44 )
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EXCELLENT ANALYSIS!!
Minor, minor, minor quibble with one point (throughout the thread)...
Ennis says "...Why dont you leave me be?..." (or something similar), collapses, and Jack holds Ennis
--- Begin Flashback
A scene in 1963 where Ennis hugs Jack (who is sleeping standing up), hums to him, and then rides off on horseback to the sheep, Jack dreamily/sleepily watches Ennis depart
--- End Flashback
Ennis drives away in the truck with the horses
So, my point is that the movie does not show Jack's reaction shot to the departing Ennis (in 198x, Jack has a moustache). You could read into it that Jack is remembering this scene, but you'd still have to question whether Jack is still committed to Ennis. This is just more excellent crafting of the story/screenplay/directing.
Personally, I think Jack was planning something (at least in his mind) with the "rancher's wife" (which was more likely an affair with Randy, and not Randy's wife), but I don't know that Jack had completely broken off with Ennis. In any event, Ennis didn't know anything about being broken up, Randy, etc.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by jean-claude_pierre (Mon Jan 9 2006 02:13:26 )
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UPDATED Mon Jan 9 2006 02:21:32
God I wish people would put away that damn Story to Screenplay book and actually go see the movie. The damn book is WRONG is so many instances!
Everything that people have talked about in this thread is actually on screen for people who actually see the movie. There IS a shot of Jack's face as Eniis is driving away in the truck. It's one of the most important and telling shots in the entire movie.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by ohohseven (Mon Jan 9 2006 03:11:33 )
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it's clear that Jack has been having some sort of relationship with Randall for a while. it might even be that, as they both approach middle-age, he wants to settle down with someone with whom he can have a slightly more honest relation than Lureen. but ultimately i don't think this means he would be betraying ennis. after all, they have both been married and have had sex with other people, so it's not like they have kept themselves chaste and pure. when they part in the end, jack is giving up his dream of growing old with ennis, but not ennis. they would have met again, i am sure, even if jack was all set up with randall (bu he would have never told ennis that!). i am 29, does it show?
What i find fascinating is that ennis has a real issue with Jack going with other guys, but not with other women. i am not sure i 100% get it, but i think it has to do partly with his fear of homophobia, partly with the fact that he doesn't consider himself gay, or maybe partly with the fact that he knows that jack is much more into men than him, so him going with a woman doesn't count, but with a man it's cheating...
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by mollys-lips (Sun Jan 15 2006 20:12:45 )
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What i find fascinating is that ennis has a real issue with Jack going with other guys, but not with other women. i am not sure i 100% get it, but i think it has to do partly with his fear of homophobia, partly with the fact that he doesn't consider himself gay, or maybe partly with the fact that he knows that jack is much more into men than him, so him going with a woman doesn't count, but with a man it's cheating...
I think you are exactly right...Ennis falls in love with Jack seperate from his usual sexual attractions. He probably would not have had a sexual relationship with a man had he not met Jack. Jack is clearly "more gay" than Ennis, having urges to be with men rather than simply one specific man. Ennis projects his own feelings onto Jack, so being with another man is a much bigger betrayal because he has never had the urge to be with a man besides Jack, while Jack's relationships with women are excusable because Ennis has seperated his love for Jack from the "normal" things that men do.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by lo-eveline (Mon Jan 9 2006 06:20:02 )
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actually, there's an important sentence in the book about this "flashback" scene (the one memory that the writer described as what Jack craved the most)
It was written that Jack loved that moment even though at that time, he acknowledged the fact that Ennis wouldn't hold him face to face, because Ennis wouldn't want to know it was Jack that he's holding. And remembering this after their last confrontation, Jack reckoned "Maybe we were never very far away from that" (or something to that effect)
This indicate Jack reckoned Ennis' unwillingness to face his true love and over years this hasn't changed much yet.
I agree there are a lot of signs showing that Jack was ready to move on - I just still not believe that he's able to do it eventually - and that, precisely, one of the heartbreaking bit of the story.
btw, I'm in my mid-thirties, so your poll is still on track.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by mlewisusc (Mon Jan 9 2006 08:01:53 )
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From the story (with apologies to jean pierre):
"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much further than that. Let be, let be."
". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by bikerjefft (Tue Jan 10 2006 16:12:41 )
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Sorry to correct the thread (again), but take another look...
In the reaction shot immediately prior to Ennis driving away, Jack is in the 1963 clothes, wearing the blue/green plaid coat with the tan sherpa collar, and he does not have a moustache. (This same shot exists at the end of the trailer with Jake's name superimposed on it).
In the 198x breakdown/climax scene, Jack wears a tan parka and has a moustache. At no point do you see the 198x Jack look as Ennis drives away.
Yes, I read the book - but no, this is my OCD-level attention to the detail in the film.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by MerryJoe_Moles (Wed Jan 11 2006 13:39:57 )
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UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 14:34:09
You're completely wrong. Try seeing the movie instead of going by the error-ridden published screenplay.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by austendw (Sat Jan 14 2006 00:52:54 )
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Try seeing the movie instead of going by the error-ridden published screenplay.
How can a screenplay ever be "error-ridden"? A screenplay is what is written before the film has been shot. It's the basis for the film, not a record of it, and necessarily omits everything the actors and director change, add or delete,d as well as details of subsequent editing decisions, etc., etc., whiahc all transform it into an actual film. (Having said that, not having seen the screenplay yet, it does seems that it omits whole scenes that were cut from the movie entirely - unless these had never been part of the script in the first place, which is unlikely.)
In discussing this movie, we must recognize three different "artifacts": the story; the screenplay; the movie.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by Pepe_el_Romano (Thu Jan 12 2006 18:33:22 )
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UPDATED Thu Jan 12 2006 22:03:20
Just saw it again this afternoon, and MerryJoe's right -- you're completely wrong.
At the end of the flashback there's the shot of Ennis riding away on the horse and the cut back to young Jack's face still in the flashback watching Ennis ride off, then a cut to Ennis's truck riding off down the road in the present (198X) followed immediately by a shot of old Jack's face (in the SAME parka and shirt -- and moustache! -- he was wearing a minute before during their argument) obviously watching Ennis's truck leave as he (Jack) decides it's time to move on with his life.
Crucial shot, gripping shot, of Jack's face in his final decision moment. It's there. It's heartbreaking. Deal with it.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by PeterDecker (Sat Jan 14 2006 00:08:21 )
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I'm not trying to be naive. Jack may very well have decided to leave Ennis -- he's probably done that a few times over the last twenty years. But I'll bet you if Jack hadn't been murdered by those homophobes he would have been with Ennis again in November -- no doubt. You don't stay in a tough relationship like that for twenty years for nothing. As badly as Jack wanted out he was in it for life. They were in love and that's just not something you can switch on and off.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by adammc80 (Sat Jan 14 2006 00:18:05 )
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I truly believe that, had Jack not been murdered, he would have seen Ennis in November as planned. That doesn't mean that he wasn't going to be with other men during their time apart, but Jack truly loved Ennis. And although he was fed up, I don't believe he would have ever given up on Ennis. They couldn't give up on each other. That's why it was so painful. They had no control over their feelings. No matter who Jack might have been with, if Ennis said the word he would leave whoever it was and go and see him.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by potc-2 (Sat Jan 14 2006 00:48:03 )
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I think that this thread has been filled with such great post. Honestly, Jack would have seen Ennis in November. I doubt that he could fight any force to see the love of his life. The question would be, if Jack stopped driving all those miles to see him, would ennis drive over to see him? I believed that Jack was heartbroken (the look on his face after the memory and after ennis had left after their last meeting) and wanted to move on from Ennis--who could not give him what he wanted--but then again, when the time came, i believed he would still run to see him as fast as he could. Being with Randall or any other man would have filled a temp. void in Jack's heart but could never completely fill it like Ennis. So if he went up to his folks ranch w/o another man wouldnt matter because in the end, he would leave that person in a heartbeat to be with Ennis. I believe he would have done that for his entire life even if he had found another man to settle down with permentately.
So many ambigous questions that leave us questioning our love lives and that of Jack and Ennis...
Where is Ms Annie Prolux when ya need her???
"You know it could be like this, just like this, always."
I heart Jake and Heath <3
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by muscla_1 (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:37:41 )
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The question would be, if Jack stopped driving all those miles to see him, would ennis drive over to see him?
OK, first thing I want to say is that Annie Proulx is a freaking genius. And Mcmurtry and Ang Lee are geniuses to leave this question unanswered.
To leave that moment unfinished, and to spark such debate from people that have seen this film multiple times, is like real life. Usually when stories are told, loose ends are tied up and a neat conclusion is drawn.
Proulx, like the greatest writers of fiction, refused to make any conclusion. Real life rarely comes in neat little packages.
I think at that moment, Jack DID indeed want to move on, but people change, and Ennis WAS, and will always be, the love of his life.
As far as the quote above, even LUREEN asks the question "Is it fair that you always have to drive up to Wyoming? Why can't Ennis come to Texas?"
The easy answer is, of course, that if Ennis showed up, there'd be lots of questions that I don't think Jack wanted to deal with. But, after years of Jack persuing, and Ennis hedging, Jack is beginning to think "Hey, why do I always have to be the one?"
As far as another posters comment above, that we never forget that love of one's life, turn to another master of the short story, James Joyce. In "The Dead," a man, happy in his marriage, is completely undone when his wife of many years shares a memory of a boy that she loved as a young girl who died when he tried to express that love. Because he realizes that he can never be THAT ONE, that, in some way, she has given her life and love to the long-dead suitor, and he, as much as he tries, can NEVER take the place of the young boy.
The final paragraph where he muses about the snow falling in Ireland on the grave of the boy is probably one of the finest pieces of prose ever written in the English language.
Ennis tragically realizes, too late as Jack has died, that Jack is his true love and cannot ever be replaced. That's why I love the added scene with the daughter. Even though he's made a shrine to Jack Twist with a postcard and a shirt, and expresses his undying love with the gorgeous and ambiguous final line consisting of nothing but the heartache of "Jack, I swear..." he's finally connected with his daughter, the only other person in his life that he's ever felt a love, or a connection, with.
Now I'm pissed off, as I have to see this whoreson son of a bitch movie for a third time to contemplate these issues.
Brokeback Mountain, I wish I knew how to quit you.
"Jack, I swear..."
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by b_hynds (Sat Jan 14 2006 00:48:57 )
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UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 00:49:27
I agree I think Jack would have met him again in November. He gave up hope for a relationship but I just don't think he would to "quit" Ennis. He loved Ennis and I think he realized some harsh truths about their relationship, I don;t think he could shake Ennis...JMO
"I did once" - BBM
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by austendw (Sat Jan 14 2006 01:55:30 )
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While I guess it's fun to argue the would-he-wouldn't-he question, in fact I think we have to accept that it is a total enigma, in story, screenplay and film. I'm honestly not sure why we feel we desperately need to solve the riddle. Let's face it, whether it divides by temperament, age or personal experience (Haight_Male, for example, made it clear that he'd "been there"), different people have been getting quite different impressions of both the scene and the implied outcome. The close-up of Jack, despite being aboslutely clear evidence of Jack's decision to leave Ennis to some, is an expression of resignation to others. I've only seen the film once, and this particular scene through the blur of salt-tears, so I can't remember Jack's expression clearly. I am increasingly wondering if, like the final shot of Garbo in Queen Christina, Jack's face is entirely expressionless, a tabula rasa onto which everyone projects their own feelings: cynical, realistic, romantic, optimistic, pessimistic, you name it.
My own view is this: we can't really know what Jack's actual decision would have been, if he came to one. We're not party to his thoughts here or subsequently - even allowing that he mentioned someone else coming to his father's ranch (the context, manner, circumstances of which are also not knowable). But we do know (I think) that Jack really has made a realisation. Jack now knows for sure, explicitly, that Ennis is never going to change. Jack is dis-illusioned - in it's literal sense: one more pipe-dream hits the dust. What he does with that knowledge is anyone's guess. The thing is, if he had have survived till November, and if he had decided to join Ennis for another "coupla high-altitude f_cks", it would have been a different Jack from previous occasions: a resigned Jack, not a hopeful one.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by b_hynds (Sat Jan 14 2006 02:23:11 )
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"But we do know (I think) that Jack really has made a realisation. Jack now knows for sure, explicitly, that Ennis is never going to change. Jack is dis-illusioned - in it's literal sense: one more pipe-dream hits the dust."
That's one of the things that really makes me sad, that all Jack's dreams never materialize. Yes I totally agree with you about Jack being "disillusioned", I just don't think that means that he would have just stopped seeing Ennis. I have been there,realizing a relationship is doomed but still not being able to pull yourself away. Basically still grasping for the time that you get together knowing that this is all it will ever be. Jack was way to optimistic for all those years and not at all realistic if he ever thought that Ennis was going to change. I think had Jack lived he would have continued seeing Ennis, however, he would have grown to resent him
"I did once" - BBM
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by yanayo (Sat Jan 14 2006 01:12:25 )
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As a 26-yo hopeless romantic, I gotta go with Peter and Adammc on this one. My interpretation of the scene is that Jack had one foot slightly out the door (I say "slightly" because, in his heart, he was never really truly going anywhere); Ennis' heartfelt tears reined Jack right back in. Emotionally, Ennis had Jack forever, no matter how much Jack may have complained. That final shot of Jack's face as Ennis drove away, for me, was a combination of love, a longing, devotion, and hurt. Note that I said "devotion," because that is exactly what Jack was when it came to Ennis. They were both in it for life, pain, joy, and all.
Trying is the first step towards failure.
--Homer J. Simpson
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by vintagegrrl1014 (Thu Feb 15 2007 14:11:56 )
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yanayo, I completely agree with you! " They were both in it for life, pain, joy, and all." I think that Jack was completely in love and emotionally attached to Ennis. No matter what he would have been with him and had he not died, he would have had every intention of seeing him in November. By the way I'm 28 and a hopeless romantic too! :-)
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by jade000 (Sat Jan 14 2006 01:12:27 )
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"...obviously watching Ennis's truck leave as he (Jack) decides it's time to move on with his life.
Crucial shot, gripping shot, of Jack's face in his final decision moment. It's there. It's heartbreaking. Deal with it."
Tes Pepe, you are right about the fact that there is a shot of current age Jack watching as Ennis's truck leaves (after the flashback)...however stating that it is "obvious" that Jack is deciding to move on is not a fact. No one can assume anything by that shot. You have your opinion and I respect that, but it is by no means "obvious". Personally I think Jack would like to move on, and may even be deciding that as you suggest, but ultimately I think that he would indeed have met Ennis in November. True love never dies...he wouldn't have been able to stay away IMO.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by yanayo (Sat Jan 14 2006 01:14:18 )
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I agree--there's no WAY either one of them would have been able to stay away.
Trying is the first step towards failure.
--Homer J. Simpson
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)
by NewHorizons37 (Sat Jan 14 2006 07:17:16 )
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UPDATED Sun Jan 15 2006 10:16:47
"...obviously watching Ennis's truck leave as he (Jack) decides it's time to move on with his life.
Crucial shot, gripping shot, of Jack's face in his final decision moment. It's there. It's heartbreaking. Deal with it."
Tes Pepe, you are right about the fact that there is a shot of current age Jack watching as Ennis's truck leaves (after the flashback)...however stating that it is "obvious" that Jack is deciding to move on is not a fact.
Pepe was replying to a poster who said there IS NO shot of Jack in the present watching Ennis leave. As Pepe says, there obviously is such a shot, and he is absolutely right. And it is heartbreaking because this shot comes just after you see the younger, completely-in-love Jack watch Ennis ride away in the flashback. The contrast between the attitudes written on his face then and now. . .
Pepe can address this, but I read the "obviously" in his sentence to just refer to the shot being there, that Jack obviously was watching Ennis drive away. Since the "as Jack decides it's time to move on" is also part of the sentence, I can see why you read it the way you did, but I'm not sure Pepe is saying that the "obviously" also applies to the interpretation of Jack's expression.
A thank you
by JLScheib (Sat Jan 14 2006 07:57:59 )
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Friends, I started this thread almost a week ago as I was "still grappling with the ending."
Thank you all so much for contributing your thoughts and insights!
jsnlthr
Brokeback's got me good. ...
Re: A thank you
by afhickman (Sun Jan 15 2006 13:11:31 )
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Good question, and a bunch of good answers. Yes, I think Jack was trying to move on. The question for me, and I must admit, it comes from the story as well as the film, is, which was it? accident or tire iron? Did anyone else flash on Matthew Shepherd when Ennis was imagining how Jack might have died?
Re: A thank you
by lisazambetti (Sun Jan 15 2006 15:10:41 )
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I had Matt Shepherd flashes several times through the movie...like when they show the murdered man in the gulch.
I never read the short story so I dont know what Proulx intended, but I think it is Ennis' mind that sees the tire iron...he doesnt believe it was an accident.
Re: A thank you
by kviii (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:48:34 )
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The same ambiguity-but-implication is established perhaps even more heavily within the short story, both when Ennis calls Jack's number and, after hearing about the accident, simply thinks "No. They got him with a tire iron", and later, after a few words with John Twist. It is, however, never necessarily established that Jack died in either way within the short story.
K
"All your cheques bounce, Louis. You're ambivalent about everything." -Angels in America
Re: A thank you
by scot_bj (Sun Jan 15 2006 15:25:31 )
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A big, heartfelt "thank you" to all who posted on this thread. So many fine analyses which definitely helped clarify my thoughts about their relationship at the end.
The different interpretations show how differently we all as individuals react to a given situation. An interesting approach might be for each of us to ask himself/herself what he/she would have done if he/she had been Jack. I'll volunteer my own "what if..." If I had been Jack, I would have decided that Ennis would never settle down with me, and, if a "Randall" were interested, I would have settled down with him with the hope of finally having a satisfying realtionship. Does that mean I would no longer love Ennis. Not at all. Everything in the movie makes clear that Jack's love for Ennis was the love of his life. Something like that doesn't just end or stop. Would I throw away Ennis' shirt? Never, never, never. I probably would look at it often to remind me of what we had had together. If I had settled down with "Randall," and, if Ennis had wanted to meet in November, would I have gone? I think not, but, man, would I have been miserable!!
Anyway, thanks, everyone, for all your thoughts on this thread. The one thing we all seem to have in common is that this astonishing movie has somehow grabbed us, and we can't "quit" it.