Author Topic: Still grappling with the ending -- by JLScheib  (Read 8170 times)

Offline TOoP/Bruce

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,662
Still grappling with the ending -- by JLScheib
« on: July 17, 2007, 08:32:14 am »
Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by JLScheib     (Sun Jan 8 2006 16:05:50 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Friends, this afternoon I achieved my goal of seeing the film five times. After my five viewings, I'm still grappling with the ending: Did Jack really, finally give up on Ennis? Was he really trying to move on? Was he just talking about bringing someone else to the family ranch in Lightning Flat out of frustration, or was he serious?

On the one hand, there is the look in his eyes as he watches Ennis drive away after their confrontation. On the other hand, the shirts were still in his room.

There is some open space between what I know, and what I want to believe. ...
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by oh_poo     (Sun Jan 8 2006 16:14:51 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
thats a good point....


i need to mell it over
my romantic self wants to believe he never gave up on what they had
but why would the father have made such a point of the son planning to bring someone new...

hmmm



Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons...for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by mlewisusc     (Sun Jan 8 2006 17:33:46 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I just posted this on another thread about 5 hours ago:

he general concensus on these threads is that, in terms of the film, Jack's father is angry with Ennis because he knows Jack and Ennis had a special connection that he (Jack's father) despises - that they were in fact physically and emotionally intimate. Jack's father perhaps infers this from knowing Jack and hearing about Ennis so much over the years. Thus, he wants to hurt Ennis when Ennis comes up to talk to him about Jack's ashes. Beyond not giving the ashes to Ennis, he goes farther and mentions Jack's last stated plans with the other ranch neighbor - calculated, in many posters' opinions, to hurt Ennis (and from the acting it apparently works).

I was bringing up another potential factor in the father's anger in my post above (last night for me), which is that Jack's father is also angry with Jack for being a no-follow-through type of guy, and for stringing Jack's father along all these years with a story about getting some help for him on the ranch. (You note that in spite of Jack's father's hostility, Jack always went up to the ranch for a week or two on each visit and helped out).

So Jack's father is letting Ennis have it for never having come up there like Jack kept saying would happen. Not becuase he wanted Jack and Ennis to be together the way Jack wanted them to be together, but because he just kept hearing that this "savior" Ennis del Mar was going to come up and his ranch was gonna get "whipped into shape," and he's cynical about Jack and Jack's dreams and plans, so his bitterness is coming through that as well. Finally, he's probably upset that Jack has died, although he's certainly not a sympathetic character, we can assume as a father his son's life meant something to him - but those feelings, in a person like him, would only make him angrier and more bitter and more likely to lash out where he could.

What am I saying? That Jack's dad had three reasons to be unpleasant to Ennis, and I think they all play a factor: 1. his knowledge or suspicion that Jack was gay and that Ennis was his gay lover; 2. Jack's failure to follow through with any plans, especially/particularly those plans which would have benefitted him (Jack's father, I mean); and 3. his discomfort with his own grief over his son's death and his inability to respond to it other than by hurting someone else.

Whew! After that effort, you'd all better buy this theory and pay cash money for it, too!

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Haight_Male     (Sun Jan 8 2006 18:13:14 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
You utterly romantic folks just need to live a little to realize that the last shot of Jack's face was indeed Jack deciding he had given Ennis 20 years of his life and if he ever wanted to find another love, he needed to leave Ennis behind and move on.

If you want to believe Jack would have waited forever for Ennis to live with him, that's your choice. But it's a cruel one, in my book. Because I've been there maybe. But Jack wanted and deserved move than Ennis could give him. As he asked for over and over in the movie, Jack desperately wanted to settle down with someone. To have someone to live with and share his life with. He wanted Ennis desperately, but Ennis just couldn't.

After their last fight, when Ennis basically gave Jack permission to move on ("Why don't you then?"), and the absolutely heartbreaking flashback to the most perfect moment of love that Jack can remember with Ennis, the camera comes back to Jack's face as Ennis is driving off, and for me there was never any doubt that Jack has decided at that moment to move on. Not that he ever stopped loving Ennis. It doesn't work that way. And not that he never loved Ennis in the first place. It doesn't work that way either. But when you've waited for someone for 20 years and basically are no further along in your "one hell of an unsatisfactory situation," you need to move on. Or die waiting.

And I think subsequent events prove that is exactly what Jack decided to do.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by flashframe777     (Sun Jan 8 2006 18:16:34 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   

Agreed, HaightMale, agreed.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar
utterly romantic and proud dammit!   
  by oh_poo     (Sun Jan 8 2006 18:19:58 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
i definately agree that he WANTED to move on in that moment, but its never so cut and dry between the head and the heart!

whether he had a romantic relationship with the other neighbour mentioned or not, the question is had he given up on their love? not just in his head but also in his heart..

cos its one thing if he had decided to move on, and a whole other thing if he had succeeded


am i even making sense anymore??....its very late....

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons...for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup
Re: utterly romantic and proud dammit!   
  by snelling     (Sun Jan 8 2006 18:23:48 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
With the shirts in his childhood bedroom, I often wondered how often Jack went back to see his parents since he had a wife and family in a big town in Texas. Also, why were Jack's parents living dirt poor when his son married into money? He could have had them living better.







I need a cool Signature for way down here.
Re: utterly romantic and proud dammit!   
  by cs-angst-legacy     (Sun Jan 8 2006 18:33:12 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   

In the story Jacks mother tells Ennis "He used a come home every year, even after he was married and down in Texas, and help his daddy on the ranch for a week fix the gates and mow and all. She also said she always kept his bedroom the same as when he was a child.

Also Lureen says she never met his parents, and the money is hers and her fathers, so Jack may have only been able to send his parents a little money occasionally. Plus, his father seemed like a tough old man who probably wouldn’t want to take handouts from his son anyway.

Re: utterly romantic and proud dammit!   
  by Pepe_el_Romano     (Sun Jan 8 2006 18:41:11 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
The story is not the movie. Please don't impute anything from the story to the movie that's not in the movie on screen.
Re: utterly romantic and proud dammit!   
  by plasticine_idol     (Sun Jan 15 2006 19:51:56 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I disagree entirely. The movie was perhaps the best translation of a story I've ever seen. It was effortless, and nothing was changed.

And besides, the above comment pertains to both the film and the short story. The mother says something very similar in the film, and it's all implied anyway.
Zach
Re: utterly romantic and proud dammit!   
  by kviii     (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:38:21 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I'd like to submit a complete and utter concension on that topic. Larry McMurtry's adaptation was one of the closest I have ever seen. I believe that he kept so close to the story that he would probably have included what was mentioned here if it were only convenient to the storytelling.

K

"All your cheques bounce, Louis. You're ambivalent about everything." -Angels in America
Re: utterly romantic and proud dammit!   
  by freeskate     (Mon Jun 12 2006 00:02:08 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
xxoo
Re: utterly romantic and proud dammit!   
  by lennylou     (Sun Jan 15 2006 10:14:20 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
OMG! if he wanted to give up on his relationshop with ennis he wouldnt have sent him the postcard!!!
He just moved on to realise that he wasnt attracted to women...
Jack had moved on   
  by freeskate     (Sun Jan 15 2006 11:18:48 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Sun Jan 15 2006 11:19:30
He DIDN'T send Ennis a postcard. Ennis is the one who sent JACK the postcard. Jack had moved on to try to make a go of it without Ennis.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by wang_jude     (Sun Jan 8 2006 18:25:05 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
WHOA! Well said Haight_Male! I don't like the idea of Jack moving on, but what your writing makes total sense!

"There are lies we have to tell. There are truths we can't deny." - BBM
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by almine     (Sun Jan 8 2006 18:27:12 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Haight_Male - I love your reply. For me you hit the nail on the head with this scene.

My only quibble is that I don't feel that Ennis necessarily gave permission for Jack to leave, but was acknowledging an inevitable conclusion. That line ("Why don't you then?") was a taunt, a dare for something he knew deep down would happen, but dreading to face it all the same.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by lo-eveline     (Mon Jan 9 2006 06:04:01 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I think we are "allowed" to believe whatever we want to.

Personally, I believe part of Jack wanted to move on (wouldn't you? it's like being in love with a married man who would never divorce his wife). But I think when Jack said, "I wish I knew how to quit you", that is an important indicator - that he simply couldn't let go of Ennis, even if he wanted to.

Plus, there's a couple of months gap between their last meeting and Jack's death. If he wanted to move on with (potentially Randall), he would have done so. And yet we heard it from Jack's father that "This Spring, he started to say there's another Rauncher neighbour who's gonna come up here with him". But this never happened.

And looking at Jack urgently trying to comfort Ennis when Ennis broke down in tears ("i'm nothing and nowhere..."), I would think Jack still loves Ennis too much to leave.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by carjones51     (Wed Jan 11 2006 13:51:06 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 13:56:13
Oh, I agree! I don't think for one moment that Jack ever stopped loving Ennis. I'm sure he didn't. After their last date, je did, however, seem sad and resigned to the fact that "this" (i.e., a couple of undercover meetings every year) was the BEST he was EVER going to get w/Ennis.

Jack was w/Ennis for 20 years, and their "relationship" had not advanced one inch. At 39, he was in the exact same place he was at 19. That had to be utterly unsatisfying for Jack, a man who knew what he wanted. Ennis wouldn't even consider moving closer to Jack. Ennis wouldn't do anything to change the situation, and would always knock down each suggestion Jack made. At some point btw that last meeting and spring, Jack decided to find a relationship that would satisfy him (i.e., Randall), and I can't say that I blame him. Now, did he stop loving Ennis? I don't think so. His plans w/Randall never came to fruition. I believe it never worked out b/c Jack knew he didn't love Randall and knew that he didn't really want to be w/Randall. He wanted to be w/Ennis.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by PeterDecker     (Wed Jan 11 2006 18:17:31 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I don't know what to make of that comment from Jack's dad about setting up a cabin with another man.

Remember how mad Jack got when Ennis told him they couldn't get together until November. "What happened to August" Jack asks. Jack had no intention of leaving Ennis at that point he was mad he would have to wait an extra couple of months. It was only a short time later that Ennis receives the postcard stamped "Deceased".

Jack had been screwing around on Ennis all along -- he admits it in their last scene together. We know about his trips to Mexico. Jack can't take the long periods of loneliness. And if Jack had wanted to set up in the cabin with Randy he would have done it years ago. You can feel that wasn't going to happen.

I'm working on the assumption that Jack was killed with a tire iron. Waiting from spring to November was too long for Jack and he needed the physical affection of another man. I think that's what he was looking for when he got gay bashed. And I think Ennis understands that he was selfish and he let Jack down and that it cost Jack his life.

The bottom line here is Jack couldn't leave Ennis no matter how badly he wanted to. They were both trapped by their love.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by cwhonse     (Sat Jan 14 2006 07:00:07 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
You're right absolutely Ennis gave Jack permission and begged him to move on ( Why don't you leave me then?), but even in the heat of their argument there was no reply to the affirmative no "alright then" or as Ennis would say "You bet". No it was always Ennis. The flash back was the reminder that it would always be Ennis. If he said he was bringing another man up to his Dad's farm it was just Jack "thinkin out loud" again. As much as Jack's father tried to hurt Ennis by telling him this there was but a brief flash of recognition across Ennis' face and then it passed for it was no threat to him and this was the man who expressd so much jealousy in front of that lake just a few short months before.
And the shirts were there. "The pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one" Jack put them there as a symbol of their relationship. If it was over they would be gone plain and simple.
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by tdspeirs     (Mon Jan 16 2006 04:46:49 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I think that you are both right in the sense that Jackss father also felt estranged from his sone by the appearence of Ennisas and wanted to 'bring jack home' by simple burying him in the family plot. Most fathers would grieve their child and his memory was kepty alive by his prerserved bedroom.


Any one have thoughts on the symbolism and significance of the mountain terrain setting?. Does it symbolise the isoloation they felt by being gay and/or the ultimately insurmountable 'mountain' of cultural perception they have to overcome in order to find realy happiness?

Thanks,
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by cs-angst-legacy     (Sun Jan 8 2006 18:26:10 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   

To me it’s clear that Jack used the other men for sexual gratification, not love. Jack has a stronger need for that contact with men, while Ennis only ever appears to want or need it with Jack. As Ennis could not give him what he needed, he had to go out and look for it.

I also don’t think he was planning to move on from Ennis completely- I don’t think he could ever do that. Obviously, we don’t know much about the new relationship and we can only speculate but I don’t think he could ever love anyone the way he loved Ennis.

I think it was an attempt on Jack’s part to grasp at least a piece of the life he so desperately wanted with Ennis but knew he would never have.

So he might have moved to his parents with the other guy, but he would have still been wanting Ennis.
I don’t think he would have ever moved on completely and would still drop everything when Ennis called.

But you never know, maybe if Jack had the chance to tell Ennis his new plans and given him a final ultimatum- it would have forced Ennis to step up and finally deal with his feelings.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by backinburntcity     (Sun Jan 8 2006 18:33:16 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I actually agree completely with cs-angst-legacy's post on this matter.

// 'Why the hell don't you become the God of the Tree?' //
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Belindah     (Sun Jan 8 2006 18:28:39 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Sun Jan 8 2006 18:29:14
I absolutely agree that in that last shot of Jack's face, he had decided to move on in his search for reciprocal love. It couldn't be any clearer in the film. And it doesn't diminish his love for Ennis. But it does stay honest to Ennis and Jack's words throughout the film, and the events that followed in the coda.

And whether or not Jack succeeded in finding another love is irrelevant. He had decided he needed to look elsewhere for someone who could love him the way he so badly wanted to be loved. I only wish he had gotten the time to find that guy.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Pepe_el_Romano     (Sun Jan 8 2006 18:38:39 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I'd be willing to bet this issue breaks down by age group.

Those over 40 will see Jack in his last scene as having decided to move on, while those under 40 will still cling to their wide-eyed romanticism and prefer to think that Jack waited for Ennis forever.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by dancinjinn     (Sun Jan 8 2006 18:52:56 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
That's perfect, Pepe because I'm exactly 40, so maybe that's why I'm so on the fence on the subject.

I definitely agree that Jack had decided to move on but what I wonder is: If Jack had lived and received Ennis' postcard, what would have happened?? Even if he was shacked up with Randall, I have a hard time believing he wouldn't still have met Ennis as planned. After all, they were still close friends for 20 years and that would be pretty hard to throw away without even a final talk. Plus, it was obvious that Jack was still in love with Ennis, no matter what decision he had to make for his own happiness.

OK, so do you think Jack would have met for the "fishing trip"? And, if he didn't, do you think that maybe Ennis would finally realize that he was losing Jack and step up and fight to get him back?? Again, it's hard to imagine that Jack wouldn't go back to Ennis if Ennis was finally willing to take a stand for him. But do you think that would have been possible for Ennis while Jack was still alive or did he just not have it in him??
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Pepe_el_Romano     (Sun Jan 8 2006 19:02:49 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
My own personal feeling is that Jack would have responded to Ennis's card saying, "Can't make it. Sorry."
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by dancinjinn     (Sun Jan 8 2006 19:21:27 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Do you really think that would have been the end of it? Ennis just would have gotten the "Can't make it." postcard and gone on with his life without making an effort to get Jack back?

I'm not arguing with you, by the way, Pepe. I'm just truly curious for opinions on this. I realize that what fictional characters would have done under hypothetical circumstances is unknowable and beside the point.
But thinking that these 2 guys would have just moved on from each other without another word, even if they had another chance, is almost just too depressing for words.

Come on guys, what do you think?
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Pepe_el_Romano     (Sun Jan 8 2006 19:35:11 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Do you really think that would have been the end of it? Ennis just would have gotten the "Can't make it." postcard and gone on with his life without making an effort to get Jack back?

I didn't say that. I only said what I thought Jack would have responded to Ennis's card for the November meeting.

Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by evrlstingobstppr     (Sun Jan 15 2006 22:57:43 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Well, I'm 16, and I think Jack moved on. Throughout the movie, Ennis was the one who remained most faithful to the relationship he shared with Jack. While Jack seemed okay with settling for just sex, Ennis sought contact with Jack and only Jack. Even making love to his wife was undesireable for Ennis if it was for recreational purposes only. Ennis was confident in the quiet, private knoweldge that he and Jack were together, but for Jack it seemed to be more about the physicality of the relationship, as though he needed to be around Ennis to reassure himself that they were "together" or however you wish to refer to it.

In response to your question, kaiteo, I don't think Jack and Ennis would have just moved on. What the two of them experienced with each other transcended years apart and alternate relationships and unfavorable circumstances, as the film showed. While Jack saying "I wish I knew how to quit you" was an assertion of the fact that he knew he would always love Ennis, one has to consider the difference between "being in love" and "having a relationship". You can love someone with all your heart, but if you have a need for physical contact, as a human you're prone to succumb to that, as Jack did. I think what Jack did was not to stop loving Ennis, but to loosen his emotional reliance on the relationship, or lack thereof, that they had. He kept their shirts together the way he did as a bittersweet memory of the time they spent, because he loved Ennis that deeply. But Jack expanded his relationships because physically, that was what he needed. However, as far as the postcards go, I think Jack would have gone to visit Ennis again and explained the situation to him. As for what would have happened after that...who knows?

What do you think?
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Belindah     (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:05:36 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
No way are you 16.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by evrlstingobstppr     (Sun Jun 11 2006 18:46:56 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Well, I'm 17 now (my birthday was in February). But I was 16 when I wrote the post you're referring to.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by JLScheib     (Sun Jan 8 2006 19:44:00 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Wow. Thanks friends, lots of interesting thoughts in this thread. I'm glad I started it; you have helped me work through my own thoughts.

"Haight," I find your thoughts very persuasive.

"Pepe," your thought about opinions breaking down by age is fascinating.

In fact, I'm 47, and now after considering the input from you folks, I think what I'm seeing in Jack's eyes in that final shot of his face is a relationship dying--not necessarily a love dying, but a relationship. Neither Jack nor Ennis can "ride it" any more. (The comment is kind of muffled, but doesn't Ennis say something like, "I can't take it any more"?)

Isn't this final "fishing trip" the meeting where Jack tells Ennis there are times he misses Ennis so much he can hardly stand it? I think this man still loves Ennis deeply, but he just can't live any more with the parameters of the relationship that he's had to put up with for nearly 20 years. This is why I say I think the relationship is dying but not necessarily the love.

While it goes against every grain of my 47-year-old romantic, idealistic nature, I'm going to have to conclude for myself that I now think Jack has decided to move on. He finally realizes he has built his life on a romantic dream that's not going to happen (I'm thinking now that this is the significance of the flashback).

I now have to say that I'm thinking Jack was serious when he started to talk to his parents on his final visit to them about bringing a ranch neighbor from Texas up to Lightning Flat. He died before anyone, himself included, could know whether this new plan would be any more successful than his past ideas.

It was suggested above not to confuse or compound the story with the film. I see now that I've been guilty of this, and this has certainly contributed to my own confusion about the ending. After the confrontation in the story, we are told, "Somehow ... they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." I've been finding that statement difficult to reconcile with the notion of a Jack who has decided to try to move on.

Thanks, everyone, for the input!
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by fwellman     (Wed Jan 11 2006 20:41:23 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I am over 40 and I don't think Jack had given up. He may have felt that way when they last met but you do not throw 20 years away like that. When Jack and Ennis are talking Jack says something about the foreman’s wife and sex. The person behind me coughed at that moment. Did he lie to Ennis about the foreman and used the wife he danced with? If anyone knows please let me know. Also the way Jack's wife described his death is fishy. I think the beauty of this movie is it could be 2 men, 2 women or a man and a woman.
Former IMDb Name: True Oracle of Phoenix / TOoP (I pronounce it "too - op") / " in fire forged,  from ash reborn" / Currently: GeorgeObliqueStrokeXR40

Offline TOoP/Bruce

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,662
Re: Still grappling with the ending -- by JLScheib
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2007, 08:32:53 am »
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by kevinmcg     (Sun Jan 8 2006 19:32:20 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Sun Jan 8 2006 19:37:16
He may have given up trying to make a life with Ennis, but the love between them is forever.

For anyone out there who's had a true, one-of-a-kind passionate love in their life, you know that the feeling doesn't go away. Think about Jack's now infamous line "I wish I knew how to quit you". Those works simply say that he loves Ennis so much that it hurts him and his life would be a lot easier if he could just let him go, but he can't. Ennis can't say or express it, but he feels the same way about Jack. Not only do we fall in love, but in the those rare, special instances I think there is something that permanently imprints us on another person. To me, it's this power that has made this such a special movie for me. Can't really explain it completely, but there it is.

you bet.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by JLScheib     (Sun Jan 8 2006 20:00:56 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Actually, I agree, but you put it beautifully. This is what I was getting at by saying the relationship was dying but the love wasn't.

Perhaps this explains why the shirts were still in Jack's room. Clearly he had an opportunity to get rid of them if he wanted to on his final visit to his parents, but he didn't.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by ednbarby     (Mon Jan 9 2006 06:41:02 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I agree with Kevin on this, too. Like someone else said earlier, I think it's one thing to decide to try to move on, but it's quite another to succeed at it.

I can tell you that my love for my husband is not passionate. It's deeply affectionate and intimate, but passion is not a word I (or he) would use to describe what we have.

I still carry a torch for someone I was with before him, now 20 years ago, for whom my physical need was so intense it was overwhelming. I still smile whenever I hear his name, which is very rare these days (not my smiling - I have a good life - but the hearing of his name), and I'm still very interested to know how his life is going. In a small way, he was like Ennis and I was like Jack. We had a very tumultuous relationship the base conflict of which was that I wanted to be with him always, but he wasn't ready to "settle down" (or at least not with me). I can remember the precise moment I decided to try to move on, too. And when I did and ultimately met my husband, he realized what he had lost and suddenly he had a change of heart. There was a moment when I could have dumped my husband (who I'd only been seeing for about a month) and had him back. I think just about the most difficult thing I ever did in my life was walk away from him that night.

Of course there are vast differences. We were free to love each other openly in this puritanical society some of us still seem to be under the illusion is so progressive - we are straight. The other is that I don't regret succeeding at moving on. He didn't love me like Ennis loved Jack. It was the realization that his love for me was never pure that made it possible for me to finally turn him away.

I understand Jack's deciding to try to move on. But he never would have stopped loving and wanting and needing Ennis, similar to how I've never stopped caring deeply about this man. But I believe that if he had moved on with Randall, had Ennis come to him broken and crying and begging him to give him another chance, he wouldn't have walked away.

Call me a hopeless romantic. And I'm 40.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by jscheib     (Mon Jan 9 2006 11:57:24 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Oh, my. What a beautiful insight!
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Ellemeno     (Mon Jan 9 2006 12:13:10 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Thank you so much for this thread, everyone.

I don't think Ennis would have done much to pursue Jack if Jack had written that "Sorry, can't make it" postcard. Nothing about Ennis shows that he would have had that followthrough to go after what he wants.

This movie is a bigger tragedy than Romeo and Juliet, because it's Ennis's internalized fear that keeps the star-crossed lovers separate.

"One's enough," said Ennis.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by jscheib     (Mon Jan 9 2006 12:26:38 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
<<This movie is a bigger tragedy than Romeo and Juliet, because it's Ennis's internalized fear that keeps the star-crossed lovers separate. >>

Well put! Bravo! Wish I'd said that!
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Ellemeno     (Sun Jan 15 2006 21:06:50 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
<<This movie is a bigger tragedy than Romeo and Juliet, because it's Ennis's internalized fear that keeps the star-crossed lovers separate. >>

Well put! Bravo! Wish I'd said that!


You can!   I've said it more than once, it's yours now too!

The moment after "This Curt fellow, he loves you?"
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by jep831     (Wed Jan 11 2006 11:49:37 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   

I mentioned this in a post several weeks ago but think it still applies. An excellent tag line from a less-than-excellent movie by an excellent director was, "There's the first one. There's the right one. And there's the one you never forget." Jack and Ennis were, at the very least, the third one.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by mlewisusc     (Sun Jan 8 2006 22:52:50 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Well, I'm 38. It took me several other threads (and a 4th film viewing) to agree that I at least saw determination on Jack's face in that last shot of him.

I guess I believe that Jack probably intended to shoot for that life with someone else, maybe to make Ennis jealous enough to do something, or because he really was ready to move on and "quit" Ennis. Or maybe a little bit of both.

Even so, I think that Jack would still have tried to meet up with Ennis, even after he brought Randall (or whomever) up to the ranch at Lightning Flat. Not that, for either Ennis or Randall, that would have worked long term (or even once).

Those of you who saw in Jack's face a determination to set a totally new course in his life, won't be able to agree with me on this.

Those of you who say, why didn't he get rid of the shirts then, will say that last look was one of frustration and anger but not departure.

And I think, although they are fictional characters and thus this whole board is beside the point, it's uncommonly good fun - "High-class entertainment," to quote my man in tan.

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by bikerjefft     (Mon Jan 9 2006 00:27:44 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
EXCELLENT ANALYSIS!!
Minor, minor, minor quibble with one point (throughout the thread)...

Ennis says "...Why dont you leave me be?..." (or something similar), collapses, and Jack holds Ennis
--- Begin Flashback
A scene in 1963 where Ennis hugs Jack (who is sleeping standing up), hums to him, and then rides off on horseback to the sheep, Jack dreamily/sleepily watches Ennis depart
--- End Flashback
Ennis drives away in the truck with the horses

So, my point is that the movie does not show Jack's reaction shot to the departing Ennis (in 198x, Jack has a moustache). You could read into it that Jack is remembering this scene, but you'd still have to question whether Jack is still committed to Ennis. This is just more excellent crafting of the story/screenplay/directing.

Personally, I think Jack was planning something (at least in his mind) with the "rancher's wife" (which was more likely an affair with Randy, and not Randy's wife), but I don't know that Jack had completely broken off with Ennis. In any event, Ennis didn't know anything about being broken up, Randy, etc.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by jean-claude_pierre     (Mon Jan 9 2006 02:13:26 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Mon Jan 9 2006 02:21:32
God I wish people would put away that damn Story to Screenplay book and actually go see the movie. The damn book is WRONG is so many instances!

Everything that people have talked about in this thread is actually on screen for people who actually see the movie. There IS a shot of Jack's face as Eniis is driving away in the truck. It's one of the most important and telling shots in the entire movie.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by ohohseven     (Mon Jan 9 2006 03:11:33 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
it's clear that Jack has been having some sort of relationship with Randall for a while. it might even be that, as they both approach middle-age, he wants to settle down with someone with whom he can have a slightly more honest relation than Lureen. but ultimately i don't think this means he would be betraying ennis. after all, they have both been married and have had sex with other people, so it's not like they have kept themselves chaste and pure. when they part in the end, jack is giving up his dream of growing old with ennis, but not ennis. they would have met again, i am sure, even if jack was all set up with randall (bu he would have never told ennis that!). i am 29, does it show?

What i find fascinating is that ennis has a real issue with Jack going with other guys, but not with other women. i am not sure i 100% get it, but i think it has to do partly with his fear of homophobia, partly with the fact that he doesn't consider himself gay, or maybe partly with the fact that he knows that jack is much more into men than him, so him going with a woman doesn't count, but with a man it's cheating...
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by mollys-lips      (Sun Jan 15 2006 20:12:45 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
What i find fascinating is that ennis has a real issue with Jack going with other guys, but not with other women. i am not sure i 100% get it, but i think it has to do partly with his fear of homophobia, partly with the fact that he doesn't consider himself gay, or maybe partly with the fact that he knows that jack is much more into men than him, so him going with a woman doesn't count, but with a man it's cheating...


I think you are exactly right...Ennis falls in love with Jack seperate from his usual sexual attractions. He probably would not have had a sexual relationship with a man had he not met Jack. Jack is clearly "more gay" than Ennis, having urges to be with men rather than simply one specific man. Ennis projects his own feelings onto Jack, so being with another man is a much bigger betrayal because he has never had the urge to be with a man besides Jack, while Jack's relationships with women are excusable because Ennis has seperated his love for Jack from the "normal" things that men do.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by lo-eveline     (Mon Jan 9 2006 06:20:02 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
actually, there's an important sentence in the book about this "flashback" scene (the one memory that the writer described as what Jack craved the most)

It was written that Jack loved that moment even though at that time, he acknowledged the fact that Ennis wouldn't hold him face to face, because Ennis wouldn't want to know it was Jack that he's holding. And remembering this after their last confrontation, Jack reckoned "Maybe we were never very far away from that" (or something to that effect)

This indicate Jack reckoned Ennis' unwillingness to face his true love and over years this hasn't changed much yet.

I agree there are a lot of signs showing that Jack was ready to move on - I just still not believe that he's able to do it eventually - and that, precisely, one of the heartbreaking bit of the story.

btw, I'm in my mid-thirties, so your poll is still on track.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by mlewisusc     (Mon Jan 9 2006 08:01:53 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
From the story (with apologies to jean pierre):

"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much further than that. Let be, let be."

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by bikerjefft     (Tue Jan 10 2006 16:12:41 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Sorry to correct the thread (again), but take another look...

In the reaction shot immediately prior to Ennis driving away, Jack is in the 1963 clothes, wearing the blue/green plaid coat with the tan sherpa collar, and he does not have a moustache. (This same shot exists at the end of the trailer with Jake's name superimposed on it).

In the 198x breakdown/climax scene, Jack wears a tan parka and has a moustache. At no point do you see the 198x Jack look as Ennis drives away.

Yes, I read the book - but no, this is my OCD-level attention to the detail in the film.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by MerryJoe_Moles     (Wed Jan 11 2006 13:39:57 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 14:34:09
You're completely wrong. Try seeing the movie instead of going by the error-ridden published screenplay.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by austendw      (Sat Jan 14 2006 00:52:54 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Try seeing the movie instead of going by the error-ridden published screenplay.

How can a screenplay ever be "error-ridden"? A screenplay is what is written before the film has been shot. It's the basis for the film, not a record of it, and necessarily omits everything the actors and director change, add or delete,d as well as details of subsequent editing decisions, etc., etc., whiahc all transform it into an actual film. (Having said that, not having seen the screenplay yet, it does seems that it omits whole scenes that were cut from the movie entirely - unless these had never been part of the script in the first place, which is unlikely.)

In discussing this movie, we must recognize three different "artifacts": the story; the screenplay; the movie.

Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Pepe_el_Romano     (Thu Jan 12 2006 18:33:22 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Thu Jan 12 2006 22:03:20
Just saw it again this afternoon, and MerryJoe's right -- you're completely wrong.

At the end of the flashback there's the shot of Ennis riding away on the horse and the cut back to young Jack's face still in the flashback watching Ennis ride off, then a cut to Ennis's truck riding off down the road in the present (198X) followed immediately by a shot of old Jack's face (in the SAME parka and shirt -- and moustache! -- he was wearing a minute before during their argument) obviously watching Ennis's truck leave as he (Jack) decides it's time to move on with his life.

Crucial shot, gripping shot, of Jack's face in his final decision moment. It's there. It's heartbreaking. Deal with it.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by PeterDecker     (Sat Jan 14 2006 00:08:21 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I'm not trying to be naive. Jack may very well have decided to leave Ennis -- he's probably done that a few times over the last twenty years. But I'll bet you if Jack hadn't been murdered by those homophobes he would have been with Ennis again in November -- no doubt. You don't stay in a tough relationship like that for twenty years for nothing. As badly as Jack wanted out he was in it for life. They were in love and that's just not something you can switch on and off.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by adammc80     (Sat Jan 14 2006 00:18:05 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I truly believe that, had Jack not been murdered, he would have seen Ennis in November as planned. That doesn't mean that he wasn't going to be with other men during their time apart, but Jack truly loved Ennis. And although he was fed up, I don't believe he would have ever given up on Ennis. They couldn't give up on each other. That's why it was so painful. They had no control over their feelings. No matter who Jack might have been with, if Ennis said the word he would leave whoever it was and go and see him.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by potc-2     (Sat Jan 14 2006 00:48:03 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I think that this thread has been filled with such great post. Honestly, Jack would have seen Ennis in November. I doubt that he could fight any force to see the love of his life. The question would be, if Jack stopped driving all those miles to see him, would ennis drive over to see him? I believed that Jack was heartbroken (the look on his face after the memory and after ennis had left after their last meeting) and wanted to move on from Ennis--who could not give him what he wanted--but then again, when the time came, i believed he would still run to see him as fast as he could. Being with Randall or any other man would have filled a temp. void in Jack's heart but could never completely fill it like Ennis. So if he went up to his folks ranch w/o another man wouldnt matter because in the end, he would leave that person in a heartbeat to be with Ennis. I believe he would have done that for his entire life even if he had found another man to settle down with permentately.


So many ambigous questions that leave us questioning our love lives and that of Jack and Ennis...

Where is Ms Annie Prolux when ya need her??? ;)

"You know it could be like this, just like this, always."
I heart Jake and Heath <3
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by muscla_1     (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:37:41 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
The question would be, if Jack stopped driving all those miles to see him, would ennis drive over to see him?


OK, first thing I want to say is that Annie Proulx is a freaking genius. And Mcmurtry and Ang Lee are geniuses to leave this question unanswered.

To leave that moment unfinished, and to spark such debate from people that have seen this film multiple times, is like real life. Usually when stories are told, loose ends are tied up and a neat conclusion is drawn.

Proulx, like the greatest writers of fiction, refused to make any conclusion. Real life rarely comes in neat little packages.

I think at that moment, Jack DID indeed want to move on, but people change, and Ennis WAS, and will always be, the love of his life.

As far as the quote above, even LUREEN asks the question "Is it fair that you always have to drive up to Wyoming? Why can't Ennis come to Texas?"

The easy answer is, of course, that if Ennis showed up, there'd be lots of questions that I don't think Jack wanted to deal with. But, after years of Jack persuing, and Ennis hedging, Jack is beginning to think "Hey, why do I always have to be the one?"

As far as another posters comment above, that we never forget that love of one's life, turn to another master of the short story, James Joyce. In "The Dead," a man, happy in his marriage, is completely undone when his wife of many years shares a memory of a boy that she loved as a young girl who died when he tried to express that love. Because he realizes that he can never be THAT ONE, that, in some way, she has given her life and love to the long-dead suitor, and he, as much as he tries, can NEVER take the place of the young boy.

The final paragraph where he muses about the snow falling in Ireland on the grave of the boy is probably one of the finest pieces of prose ever written in the English language.

Ennis tragically realizes, too late as Jack has died, that Jack is his true love and cannot ever be replaced. That's why I love the added scene with the daughter. Even though he's made a shrine to Jack Twist with a postcard and a shirt, and expresses his undying love with the gorgeous and ambiguous final line consisting of nothing but the heartache of "Jack, I swear..." he's finally connected with his daughter, the only other person in his life that he's ever felt a love, or a connection, with.

Now I'm pissed off, as I have to see this whoreson son of a bitch movie for a third time to contemplate these issues.

Brokeback Mountain, I wish I knew how to quit you.

"Jack, I swear..."
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by b_hynds     (Sat Jan 14 2006 00:48:57 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 00:49:27
I agree I think Jack would have met him again in November. He gave up hope for a relationship but I just don't think he would to "quit" Ennis. He loved Ennis and I think he realized some harsh truths about their relationship, I don;t think he could shake Ennis...JMO

"I did once" - BBM
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by austendw      (Sat Jan 14 2006 01:55:30 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
While I guess it's fun to argue the would-he-wouldn't-he question, in fact I think we have to accept that it is a total enigma, in story, screenplay and film. I'm honestly not sure why we feel we desperately need to solve the riddle. Let's face it, whether it divides by temperament, age or personal experience (Haight_Male, for example, made it clear that he'd "been there"), different people have been getting quite different impressions of both the scene and the implied outcome. The close-up of Jack, despite being aboslutely clear evidence of Jack's decision to leave Ennis to some, is an expression of resignation to others. I've only seen the film once, and this particular scene through the blur of salt-tears, so I can't remember Jack's expression clearly. I am increasingly wondering if, like the final shot of Garbo in Queen Christina, Jack's face is entirely expressionless, a tabula rasa onto which everyone projects their own feelings: cynical, realistic, romantic, optimistic, pessimistic, you name it.

My own view is this: we can't really know what Jack's actual decision would have been, if he came to one. We're not party to his thoughts here or subsequently - even allowing that he mentioned someone else coming to his father's ranch (the context, manner, circumstances of which are also not knowable). But we do know (I think) that Jack really has made a realisation. Jack now knows for sure, explicitly, that Ennis is never going to change. Jack is dis-illusioned - in it's literal sense: one more pipe-dream hits the dust. What he does with that knowledge is anyone's guess. The thing is, if he had have survived till November, and if he had decided to join Ennis for another "coupla high-altitude f_cks", it would have been a different Jack from previous occasions: a resigned Jack, not a hopeful one.

Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by b_hynds     (Sat Jan 14 2006 02:23:11 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
"But we do know (I think) that Jack really has made a realisation. Jack now knows for sure, explicitly, that Ennis is never going to change. Jack is dis-illusioned - in it's literal sense: one more pipe-dream hits the dust."

That's one of the things that really makes me sad, that all Jack's dreams never materialize. Yes I totally agree with you about Jack being "disillusioned", I just don't think that means that he would have just stopped seeing Ennis. I have been there,realizing a relationship is doomed but still not being able to pull yourself away. Basically still grasping for the time that you get together knowing that this is all it will ever be. Jack was way to optimistic for all those years and not at all realistic if he ever thought that Ennis was going to change. I think had Jack lived he would have continued seeing Ennis, however, he would have grown to resent him


"I did once" - BBM
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by yanayo     (Sat Jan 14 2006 01:12:25 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
As a 26-yo hopeless romantic, I gotta go with Peter and Adammc on this one. My interpretation of the scene is that Jack had one foot slightly out the door (I say "slightly" because, in his heart, he was never really truly going anywhere); Ennis' heartfelt tears reined Jack right back in. Emotionally, Ennis had Jack forever, no matter how much Jack may have complained. That final shot of Jack's face as Ennis drove away, for me, was a combination of love, a longing, devotion, and hurt. Note that I said "devotion," because that is exactly what Jack was when it came to Ennis. They were both in it for life, pain, joy, and all.

Trying is the first step towards failure.
--Homer J. Simpson
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by vintagegrrl1014     (Thu Feb 15 2007 14:11:56 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
yanayo, I completely agree with you! " They were both in it for life, pain, joy, and all." I think that Jack was completely in love and emotionally attached to Ennis. No matter what he would have been with him and had he not died, he would have had every intention of seeing him in November. By the way I'm 28 and a hopeless romantic too! :-)
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by jade000     (Sat Jan 14 2006 01:12:27 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
"...obviously watching Ennis's truck leave as he (Jack) decides it's time to move on with his life.

Crucial shot, gripping shot, of Jack's face in his final decision moment. It's there. It's heartbreaking. Deal with it."

Tes Pepe, you are right about the fact that there is a shot of current age Jack watching as Ennis's truck leaves (after the flashback)...however stating that it is "obvious" that Jack is deciding to move on is not a fact. No one can assume anything by that shot. You have your opinion and I respect that, but it is by no means "obvious". Personally I think Jack would like to move on, and may even be deciding that as you suggest, but ultimately I think that he would indeed have met Ennis in November. True love never dies...he wouldn't have been able to stay away IMO.

Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by yanayo     (Sat Jan 14 2006 01:14:18 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I agree--there's no WAY either one of them would have been able to stay away.

Trying is the first step towards failure.
--Homer J. Simpson
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by NewHorizons37     (Sat Jan 14 2006 07:17:16 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Sun Jan 15 2006 10:16:47
"...obviously watching Ennis's truck leave as he (Jack) decides it's time to move on with his life.
Crucial shot, gripping shot, of Jack's face in his final decision moment. It's there. It's heartbreaking. Deal with it."

Tes Pepe, you are right about the fact that there is a shot of current age Jack watching as Ennis's truck leaves (after the flashback)...however stating that it is "obvious" that Jack is deciding to move on is not a fact.

Pepe was replying to a poster who said there IS NO shot of Jack in the present watching Ennis leave. As Pepe says, there obviously is such a shot, and he is absolutely right. And it is heartbreaking because this shot comes just after you see the younger, completely-in-love Jack watch Ennis ride away in the flashback. The contrast between the attitudes written on his face then and now. . .

Pepe can address this, but I read the "obviously" in his sentence to just refer to the shot being there, that Jack obviously was watching Ennis drive away. Since the "as Jack decides it's time to move on" is also part of the sentence, I can see why you read it the way you did, but I'm not sure Pepe is saying that the "obviously" also applies to the interpretation of Jack's expression.
A thank you   
  by JLScheib     (Sat Jan 14 2006 07:57:59 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Friends, I started this thread almost a week ago as I was "still grappling with the ending."

Thank you all so much for contributing your thoughts and insights!

jsnlthr

Brokeback's got me good. ...
Re: A thank you   
  by afhickman     (Sun Jan 15 2006 13:11:31 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Good question, and a bunch of good answers. Yes, I think Jack was trying to move on. The question for me, and I must admit, it comes from the story as well as the film, is, which was it? accident or tire iron? Did anyone else flash on Matthew Shepherd when Ennis was imagining how Jack might have died?
Re: A thank you   
  by lisazambetti     (Sun Jan 15 2006 15:10:41 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I had Matt Shepherd flashes several times through the movie...like when they show the murdered man in the gulch.

I never read the short story so I dont know what Proulx intended, but I think it is Ennis' mind that sees the tire iron...he doesnt believe it was an accident.
Re: A thank you   
  by kviii     (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:48:34 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
The same ambiguity-but-implication is established perhaps even more heavily within the short story, both when Ennis calls Jack's number and, after hearing about the accident, simply thinks "No. They got him with a tire iron", and later, after a few words with John Twist. It is, however, never necessarily established that Jack died in either way within the short story.

K

"All your cheques bounce, Louis. You're ambivalent about everything." -Angels in America
Re: A thank you   
  by scot_bj     (Sun Jan 15 2006 15:25:31 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
A big, heartfelt "thank you" to all who posted on this thread. So many fine analyses which definitely helped clarify my thoughts about their relationship at the end.
The different interpretations show how differently we all as individuals react to a given situation. An interesting approach might be for each of us to ask himself/herself what he/she would have done if he/she had been Jack. I'll volunteer my own "what if..." If I had been Jack, I would have decided that Ennis would never settle down with me, and, if a "Randall" were interested, I would have settled down with him with the hope of finally having a satisfying realtionship. Does that mean I would no longer love Ennis. Not at all. Everything in the movie makes clear that Jack's love for Ennis was the love of his life. Something like that doesn't just end or stop. Would I throw away Ennis' shirt? Never, never, never. I probably would look at it often to remind me of what we had had together. If I had settled down with "Randall," and, if Ennis had wanted to meet in November, would I have gone? I think not, but, man, would I have been miserable!!
Anyway, thanks, everyone, for all your thoughts on this thread. The one thing we all seem to have in common is that this astonishing movie has somehow grabbed us, and we can't "quit" it.
Former IMDb Name: True Oracle of Phoenix / TOoP (I pronounce it "too - op") / " in fire forged,  from ash reborn" / Currently: GeorgeObliqueStrokeXR40

Offline TOoP/Bruce

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,662
Re: Still grappling with the ending -- by JLScheib
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2007, 08:33:39 am »
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by andrewthezeppo     (Sun Jan 15 2006 15:25:05 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   


I think that the tradgedy here is that Jack had recently taken steps to give up hope on Ennis. The father saying that they'd heard about Ennis Del Marr for years but now there's another shows that Jack was just ready to try something else. Because we know that Jack always would have settled down with Ennis if Ennis wanted to.

How I see it is that after that fight they didn't meet up in November because they were made about it. Jack tried to find somebody else. If you noticed all through the movie it was Jack who sent the postcards, but then one didn't come. So Ennis took his first steps forward, he broke it off with the girlfriend and for the first time decided to be the one to contack Jack first. I think showing him sitting eating pie in the dinner was a step to show he was finally doing something for himself, it was the most self-indulgent thing he had really done the entire movie other than the affair. But Jack would obviously net get the poscard, and Ennis had to find out about his death. I can't help thinking about that part though, because part of Ennis had to have been relieved that it wasn't him, as he was the one that lived in fear...not Jack.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by bradleyread     (Sun Jan 15 2006 15:59:16 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Wow. Im 19 and recently went to see this film with my mum (yeah i know!) We were both moved by this extraordinary movie. I was thinking that in the end if Enis could of had the courage to let himself move away from the life he was leading and live with jack on the ranch he had envisioned that Jacks death would of been avoided, do you think that in the end its was Enis and his own inhibitions and fears that killed the relationship and the person. Or would they just of both been killed later on by some crazy townsfolk? Or that it was jacks confidence that killed him. Was Enis right to be fearfull or was the relationship doomed from the beginning and it would of been better for them to enjoy the moments while they lasted?
I would like to say that these posts only go to demonstrate how powerfull and moving this film was, and what a landmark picture it is. Congrates to all who were involved in making it and hope there are more films with such heart and mind in the cinemas around the world soon.

Brad
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by JLScheib     (Sun Jan 15 2006 17:15:29 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
<<If you noticed all through the movie it was Jack who sent the postcards, but then one didn't come. So Ennis took his first steps forward, he broke it off with the girlfriend and for the first time decided to be the one to contack Jack first.>>

Respectfully, we don't see the card, but you're forgetting that Jack says he got Ennis's postcard after Ennis's divorce was finalized. He may even say it twice. So Ennis's card about meeting Jack in November was not the first time he had been the one to take the initiative and contact Jack.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by javanutt     (Sun Jan 15 2006 17:25:51 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I think in an interview with Jake, he sort of mentioned that Jack was ready to move on after 20 years. It's evident in his expression watching Ennis leave. But, I agree that Ennis was obviously the love of his life. Randall was just a replacement. He had that far away look that he had when he was propositioned by Randall, as he did when he was dancing with Lureen. Jack only seemed really happy when he was with Ennis.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Bobbyjames184     (Sun Jan 15 2006 18:47:25 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
This point may have already been made, but Jack was pursuing the life that he wanted. He didn't want to leave Ennis, he did in fact send the postcard, but he met someone closer (so he thought). Jack always had that door open for Ennis. And the "other guy" wasn't a relationship, it was a desire of Jack. Jack and "the other guy" were never an item and never together...but Jack wanted that because "the other guy" wanted to go "fishing" and since Jack associated Ennis with Fishing, that's what was meant. And unfortunately, Jack tried some stuff with "the other guy" and lost his life. Mention of "the other guy" had to be done in order to show everyone that Jack was MURDERED by him and his buddies. That's revealed in the short story. (sorry if that ruined it for anyone). That's just my take on things.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by rskollar     (Sun Jan 15 2006 19:04:28 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I was a bit uncertain about Jack's murder.
Do we KNOW who did it?
Does Jack's wife?
Was it some homophobic townsfolk? The "other guy"?
OR...wasn't there some reference to Jack having something on the side with a buddy's wife...and a subsequesnt "warning" that he could get himself killed?
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by kviii     (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:55:27 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
None of that is actually answerable; there is intentional ambiguity about the nature of Jack's death. Neither the movie nor the short story reveal whether Jack died in exactly the way that was presented by Lureen, or by the harrowing alternate believed by Ennis.

However, because the ambiguity exists, I tend to lean towards supposing that Jack's death was caused by "violent intolerance" (as said by every film critic, and the dust jacket of the short story). The wife's relatively stoic reaction, for me, indicated repression; the inclusion of the brutal flash of the "tire-iron" scene emphasised that the viewer is meant to share in Ennis' suspision. This ambiguity exists, almost identically, within the short story, and therefore reading it reveals nothing.

Though lengthy arguments can be made in any direction on this topic, I think the only true conclusion that can be reached is that you are not meant to be 100% certain about the details of what eventually killed Jack.

(A thought: believing the tire-iron story is better, if you are in need of emotional catharsis)

-K

"All your cheques bounce, Louis. You're ambivalent about everything." -Angels in America
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by an administrator
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Sleeth1     (Sun Jan 15 2006 19:26:32 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
What am I saying? That Jack's dad had three reasons to be unpleasant to Ennis, and I think they all play a factor: 1. his knowledge or suspicion that Jack was gay and that Ennis was his gay lover; 2. Jack's failure to follow through with any plans, especially/particularly those plans which would have benefitted him (Jack's father, I mean); and 3. his discomfort with his own grief over his son's death and his inability to respond to it other than by hurting someone else.

Whew! After that effort, you'd all better buy this theory and pay cash money for it, too!


Hmmmm... love that last bit (cute). You know what I don't understand, though? Why did they BOTHER with all of that at all? It's not in the original story.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Sancre     (Sun Jan 15 2006 20:18:24 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Hello,

I just finished seeing this film in Raliegh NC at the Rialto to a almost sold out theatre at a 1pm matinee. If it can fill a theatre in this venue, then it boggles the mind at how well this would do nationwide.

I went into this film already knowing quite a bit about the plot etc. I left this film shattered and still thinking about the whole thing hours later. It will be a film that I will remember for a long time. The ultimate message of this film to me is simply, it doesnt matter who you love, just love them and don't regret or hide it. For whatever reason.

Although I have only seen it once, and I know you are simply speculating about a particular part of the movie, don't lose sight of the fact that I don't think it really matters very much whether Jack had planned to "give up" on their relationship. I think the whole point of the ending was to showcase how much we lose by losing site of what is real and important in our lives and not taking the full risks. Whether you are gay or straight, or simply phobic of being close to and needed by others. (Which in one respect I feel was Ennis's problem).

Despite the pain and angst and loss, Ennis's character still grows and learns from his mistakes and choices. What was important before Jack's death, his job and ability to be independent of the closeness of others, becomes the most important thing in his life. Being at his daughters wedding. Finally, he is willing to make that effort, with no excuses, to reach out to someone who loves him. He lost that choice with the love of his life when Jack died. He was not going to continue making that same mistake with his daughter.

Regardless of whether or not Jack was going to leave him, he no longer had any opportunity to find out what it could have been.

I have some questions here for those of you who are gay. I am not and just wondered about the impact of this film on the gay community. I am not saying that your enterpretation or feelings are any different than mine, I am simply looking for perspective.

1) Did it bother you that the director chose two straight males to portray these characters? Was it believeable to those who are gay?

For me, it didnt matter, the actors did such a great job, I had not one minute of disbelief that they felt what they felt.

2)How big a role did keeping that first love/sex scene in the film, play in convincing you of the intensity of this relationship?

For me, a straight hetero female, I will be honest and say that I did notice quite a few gasps that it was actually happening on screen. It was the first openly gay sexual encounter that I have ever seen in mainstream film. I think without it the film goer might not have experienced the explosive passion that these two young men felt for each other.

3)Michele Williams gave a wonderful performance as Ennis's wife. I will have to say from my perspective, the pain that woman felt on learning about her husbands love for the other man, was a real and as powerful as the pain of their inability to fully realize their relationship. It would have been easy to simply cast her as the bitchy witch of it all. Did you feel this also? Did the director convey that to you.

I hope this does not come across as stupid questions, but curious ones.

And finally to all moviegoers, I have read that there was some speculation that what actually happened to Jack might simply have been what Ennis feared had happened, based on his childhood experience, not what really happened. I went to this movie with a friend and we discussed this after the film.

As gruesome as it sounds, I believe what we saw, was what actually happened to Jack. Jack's wife gave the story in such a monotone voice, emotionless. Almost a practiced story, so as not to let on to friends and family, the fact that her husband was actually leaving her for his lover, the other rancher.

Finally, kudos to all who brought this story and film to frutation. It will be one of the most powerfuls films ever.



Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by JLScheib     (Sun Jan 15 2006 21:18:35 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
<<1) Did it bother you that the director chose two straight males to portray these characters? Was it believeable to those who are gay? >>

Sancre,

I'll just answer your first question. I started this thread, and I'm a middle-aged gay man. The first time I saw the film, I was with a friend, also a middle-aged gay man, and who has extensive experience as a theater director. Speaking only for myself and my friend, we were not bothered by having two straight actors in the roles.

In fact, we felt that, since this film was made now, in the beginning of the 21st century, quite possibly two "out" gay actors might not be able to convey the fear and the conflict that Ennis and Jack experienced 40 years ago. Granted, Matthew Shepherd was murdered in Wyoming less than 10 years ago, but in other parts of the world, a lot has changed since 1963. Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal were entirely believeable to me and to my friend the director.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by afhickman     (Mon Jan 16 2006 09:05:17 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Sancre,
I don't think we should assume these actors are heterosexual. Ledger's first acting role was as a gay teenager in an Australian soap; I first saw Jake Gyllenhaal on the London stage in a play with homoerotic overtones (I believe the title of the play was "Our Youth," and it also starred Anna Paquin and Hayden Christensen). None of these actors may be gay, or they may all be. How can we know? There are many books about the lives closeted film stars are compelled to live in Hollywood (William Mann's "Behind the Screen" is a good place to start). I'm willing to give Leger and Gyllenhaal the benefit of the doubt.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by shortfic     (Sun Jan 15 2006 20:18:58 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
It didn't. The exact circumstances of Jack's death are ambiguous in the story and in the movie too, I think. Ennis imagines that Jack has been killed, and he may very well have been, given his indiscretion. But nowhere in the story is it clearly indicated how Jack died, unless we are to believe Lureen's statements to Ennis.
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by an administrator
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Sleeth1     (Sun Jan 15 2006 21:07:03 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Don't you think, though, that it's OKAY to be ambiguous in the MOVIE - but if we believe that Ang Lee recreated the story as close as possible to the short story (which he has said he did) ... then there is NOTHING (no implication WHAT-SO-EVER) that Jack's wife is not telling the truth. She WAS telling the truth. The story (both the short story AND the movie) should leave you feeling what a terrible accident.... and Ennis was kind of the last to know. It's an entirely different MOVIE ending if you think that Jack was murdered. It never occured to me even ONCE that Jack had actually been murdered. That was Ennis THINKING; thinking BACK. Ennis may have even been thinking that Jack was punished even just by having the accident. Ennis is missing Jack so much at that point that he is almost delusional (that's why the fact that he decides he will go to his daughters wedding is the little bit of upbeat they decided to use in the MOVIE that they DON'T in the short story). Believe what you want... but I can only say this: If you think JACK was MURDERED.... then you saw a completely different movie. There is no WAY that this loving and sensitive film would at the last minute THRUSH upon you the murder of one of these lovers. It would be a completely differernt movie! JEEZ!!!!!!
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by PeterDecker     (Sun Jan 15 2006 21:30:29 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
In an interview Ang Lee said that when Jack's wife was on the phone explaining to Ennis how Jack died she was "lying." I know it is inconclusive in the short story but based on what Lee said it should be clear from the film that Jack was gay bashed and killed with a tire iron. That is what Lee was implying.

Hathaway's performance in that telephone scene is a revelation. She gives it away by her nuanced emotions and realizes that Ennis is the love of Jack's life. Note the front on close up Lee uses on her face for effect.

What we don't know are the circumstances that lead to the bashing and who was involved. And of course we'll never know. There are so many questions about Jack and Ennis that will forever haunt us.

God, what a great film!
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Sleeth1     (Sun Jan 15 2006 21:50:48 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I still don't believe that's the truth. You're SURE Ang Lee said that Jack's wife was lying? That's just so weied to me.

Roger Ebert said in his review:
"A closing scene involving a visit by Ennis to Jack's parents is heartbreaking in what is said, and not said, about their world. A look around Jack's childhood bedroom suggests what he overcame to make room for his feelings. What we cannot be sure is this: In the flashback, are we witnessing what really happened, or how Ennis sees it in his imagination? Ennis, whose father "made sure me and my brother saw it."

If he was murdered that is a completely different ending than the original story. Why would Ang Lee go SO far as to try to "stick" to the original story, and then CHANGE the ending? In the book it says "She was polite... but the little voice was cold as snow". I'm sure that she had "figured him out" and she may have even figured "out" his realtionship with Ennis.... but it NEVER implicates that Jack was murdered. It was just Ennis THINKING it.

Wasn't it????????????????? God! Now you've all got me wondering. It is a MAJOR difference in the ending!

You know why I hate the "murdered" ending so much? Because it would be so TYPICAL for a film about two gay men loving one anothyer (especially in the 60's) and one of them being murdered! I still don't think it's what happened... and I don't think Ang Lee would change the end of the story in that way. It's IMPLIED in the short story that the "murder" is in Ennis' imagination (nothing more). It just changes the story too much. The author is not looking for you to be sad (or mad) because one of the characters was murdered. The sadness (the madness) is the LOSS of the two of them being able to spend their lives together. HONESTLY!

Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by JLScheib     (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:23:05 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Sun Jan 15 2006 23:24:51
<<If he was murdered that is a completely different ending than the original story.>>

Sleeth1, no disrespect for your opinion intended, but I do not understand where you are getting that it's "a completely different ending than the original story."

All we really "know" from the story, and also all we really "know" from the film, is that Ennis believes it was the tire iron. I do, too, for the reasons I gave in my thread, "Why I believe it was the tire iron," but Annie Proulx does not tell us "for sure" in the story how Jack died, and neither does the film. That's one of the beauties of this story and this film. Annie Proulx does write, "Ennis didn't know about the accident," but all that might refer to is what Lureen tells Ennis.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by gypsy102     (Fri May 19 2006 07:47:27 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I am interested in reading your thread "Why I believe it was the tire iron". Even though I know that the author nor the movie make it very clear I would like to read other's opinions.

Would you mind sending the link?

Thanks!!
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by janscholl-1     (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:40:41 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I just returned from the film in Flint, Michigan-which is remarkable in itself because we as a community was orginally told just 2 weeks ago that the film would NOT show here because there was no market for ART films. I thought I was going to have to drive at least an hour to see it. I will tell you that I saw it with my daughter as my husband, and son refused to see it. I dont even know why at this point. I cried all the way home and find myslef breaking up over the postings here. Anger, sadness, confusion--a lot of emotions.

I wanted to comment on the reaction of Jack's mom while in the kitchen at his parents house. I am betting at this point that his mom would have, and in her heart, did accept her son as he was (unlike his dad) but she was probably pretty brow beaten by her husband, which was common for the era. Many women of her age werent allowed to express themselves. But when she told Ennis he could go up to the bedroom and see it, I believe its because she knew the shirts were there and why. I know every crook and hide-a-way in my kids rooms-even tho I didnt disturb the things they kept there. Jack's mom knew the shirts were there and that Ennis needed to see them-she didnt blink an eye when he brought them downstairs and she offered a paper bag. Ennis couldnt have the ashes-per the dad-but dad didnt know about the shirts and she did. I reallly wanted her to tell the dad to give the ashes to Ennis-over ride his final words, but it would have been so wrong for her character to do this-maybe in another generation it would have happened-because in my story, the dad would have broken down and finally accepted and maybe forgiven himself for the pain he inflicted by not accepting his son, too.

My son-who is not gay-and I have very long deep converstions about life, loves and other thngs that he would never think of expressing to his dad and Jack was probably like this with his mom to a degree. Kids usually bond with one parent more so than the other. In the majority of families that I know with gay or lesbian members, its the dad who isnt accepting-altho more are coming around (I am a member of PFLAG) .

I think people will be discussing this film for many years-usually at the end of a movie, most viewers bolt for the doors, but many remained slowly letting the movie sink in and whispering thoughts and feelings. I know I left with a peice of my heart shattered-for all the lost chances that we never get back in life.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by mollys-lips      (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:25:26 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I haven't read the story yet, but am planning on doing so. But without having read the story and without having seen the interview with Ang Lee, I was 100% certain that Jack's wife was lying. The tone of her voice was that of someone reciting a practiced speech. She was dispassionate in a way that made me feel that she had spoken those same words countless times in order to hide the truth from her family's social circle.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by JLScheib     (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:32:28 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Mollys-lips, I agree with you. Although, at the risk of being my own devil's advocate, you could argue that as Jack's widow Lureen would probably have had to tell the story many, many times anyway, even if it was the truth, so that by the time Ennis got the postcard back and telephoned her, she would have had the speech down pat.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Belindah     (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:59:11 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Ang Lee has said in interviews that he made the manner of Jack's death LESS ambiguous in the movie.

So I don't think it can be seriously argued that he made it less ambiguous in the movie by keeping it just as ambiguous as the story.

Jack was murdered.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by bernerlove     (Mon Jan 16 2006 07:04:11 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
UPDATED Mon Jan 16 2006 07:05:26
<<The tone of her voice was that of someone reciting a practiced speech. >>

Just saw this wonderful story yesterday.

My comment about Lureen at the end...the phone call...I agree
with what you said.

She certainly seemed dispassionate to me.
Like she was talking about a second cousin or something...not
her husband.

She must have known that he was murdered and probably her daddy
helped her memorize what to tell people.

Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by mollys-lips      (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:31:01 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I'm sorry Bobbyjames, but I feel compelled to say something I would not usually say...I think you are wrong. When Jack's dad mentions the "other guy" in Jack's life he is referring to Randal, the rancher in Texas and I believe that there is an actual relationship there. This is not who is responsible for Jack's death.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by buythetickettaketheride     (Mon Jan 16 2006 00:23:24 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Are we forgetting that Jack's final wishes are for his ashes to be spread at Brokeback Mountain? Even if he made the request long before the final confrontation, it implies that he realizes that his love for Ennis will last until his death. With that kind of love, it doesn't matter whether he would still meet him for another "fishing trip" or not, it is their love that is explored throughout the film, not the quantity of their actual time together. So whether he really wants to call it off or not doesn't dispell the idea that he will never know how to "quit him" into his death.
(And on a side note, I am very glad that there are other people so affected by these characters and this story. I became a member of IMDB simply because I wanted to read the postings at the bottom of the Brokeback Mountain page. I wish all the best for all of you.)
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by PeterDecker     (Mon Jan 16 2006 02:28:33 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Buythetickettaketheride, you've made a brilliant observation about Jack's final wishes. Very perceptive. First the shirts, now the ashes. God how Jack must have loved Ennis.

I signed onto these IMDB boards just for Brokeback Mountain but have come to realize that there are a lot of decent, good-hearted people here I would love to know in real life.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by JLScheib     (Mon Jan 16 2006 06:37:58 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
<<Buythetickettaketheride, you've made a brilliant observation about Jack's final wishes. Very perceptive. First the shirts, now the ashes. God how Jack must have loved Ennis. >>

Let me just echo PeterDecker's response--Jack's love for Ennis was so deep it was a permanent part of his being--even if his frustration led him to do reckless and unwise things. The wish for his ashes makes me think perhaps the only time in his life poor Jack was truly happy was during his summer on the mountain with Ennis. All right, I'm starting to tear up again. ...

<<I signed onto these IMDB boards just for Brokeback Mountain but have come to realize that there are a lot of decent, good-hearted people here I would love to know in real life.>>

Me, too, PeterDecker.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by Bobbyjames184     (Sat Jan 28 2006 16:41:45 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
The Book says Jack was murdered...it's in the pages where Ennis is talking to Jack's parents. "it was then Ennis knew Jack was murdered" or something like that. And in the movie, if everyone was watching really closely, Jack's mother put a small bag of ashes into the brown paper bag...Just a heads up for those that missed that.
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by jshane2002      (Tue Mar 14 2006 21:43:08 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
bump
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by jshane2002      (Wed Mar 22 2006 18:31:49 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
bump
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by monimm18      (Mon Mar 27 2006 01:16:04 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
bump

"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."
Oscar Wilde
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by joyce023     (Sun Apr 9 2006 09:36:18 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
bump
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by ronnie27     (Sun Apr 9 2006 11:05:12 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
I don't think the book says he was murdered. I lent my two copies to friends so I don't have it in front of me, but I think it's when Ennis is sitting at the table listening to Jack's father tell him he knows who Ennis Del Mar is. When he gets to the part about Jack taking up with a ranch foreman who's going to leave his wife and come to the ranch in Lightning Flat, Ennis thinks to himself that "it was the tire iron" or something to that effect. But it's just his assumption, not a fact IMO.

I do think that's what happened to Jack because he made the mistake of taking up with someone so close to home that the locals wouldn't turn a blind eye to it. He could've continued to go to Mexico, but not Childress. After their last confrontation by the lake, the disillusionment and despair on Jack's face, especially after the pure look of love he has in the flashback scene, leads me to believe that he has come to the end of his rope--or leash. Not that he doesn't love Ennis anymore--I'm certain he loved him till the day he was killed. But he had needs that hadn't been met in almost 20 years, unlike Ennis who was able to stuff his needs and feelings, only showing his anger.
Two things Jack said at the lake: 1. the night before--"sometimes...I miss you so much...I can hardly stand it" and 2. the next morning--"you count the damn few times we been together in nearly 20 years...you measure the short fu**in leash you keep me on...and then you ask me about Mexico and tell you'll kill me for needing somethin I don't hardly never get....you have no idea how bad it gets" Jack is saying it all right there. That coupled with his line "I'm not you" meaning you, Ennis, seem to be able to make it without the day to day closeness, but I can't. Everything sort of comes to a head and I think this last good-bye really pushes Jack to make a move towards Randall, in spite of his deep love for his soulmate and his willingness to continue to meet even if he was with Randall. The flashback scene was Jack thinking back to the only time and place they were truly happy, the summer on Brokeback, and he realizes what he has in the present is pale in comparison. So sad, so unnecessary...I need to go have a good cry!

"You know, it could be like this, just like this, always." Jack Twist
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by ailuro      (Mon May 22 2006 11:35:54 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
And in the movie, if everyone was watching really closely, Jack's mother put a small bag of ashes into the brown paper bag...Just a heads up for those that missed that.



I think most of us believe there were no ashes in the paper bag.




Jack "I'd love to rope a coyote."
Ennis "I doubt I'll live to see that miracle..."
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by catglith     (Mon Apr 17 2006 09:31:56 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
bump
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by gypsy102     (Mon May 22 2006 11:07:59 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Still wondering about that thread "Why I think it was the tire iron" - can anyone help with this?

would love to hear thoughts about the truth of Jack's death - even though we never really know....

Thanks!!
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by DSTgar     (Mon May 22 2006 12:08:31 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Perhaps the discussion here will help: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/43690269.

 Not garnished? Not finished!
Re: Still grappling with the ending (spoiler)   
  by gypsy102     (Tue May 23 2006 07:24:04 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Yes - Thank you!!!
[Post deleted]   
This message has been deleted by the poster
Re: bump   
  by panam231     (Sun Jun 4 2006 10:29:47 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
Jack never decided to let Ennis go. The original book says the following "For what they said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved".
Plain and simple they relationship did not ended, never did. Now for Jack's death, i dont know. I want to belive it was an accident but my heart tells me it was not.
Former IMDb Name: True Oracle of Phoenix / TOoP (I pronounce it "too - op") / " in fire forged,  from ash reborn" / Currently: GeorgeObliqueStrokeXR40

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,287
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Still grappling with the ending -- by JLScheib
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2013, 01:55:15 pm »
Reaching way way back for Throwback Thursday to reread Jeff's and other's thoughts about the postcards.
"chewing gum and duct tape"